Actually, quite alot of people prefer books over audiobooks. I'm certainly not trying to dismiss people who enjoy VO.....but please don't dismiss the written word as a medium for narritive. It has qualities that are unique to it.
It's a matter of the means of presentation though. A modern game that is presented graphically and lacks voiceover has more in common with a silent movie than it does with a book. How many people honestly prefer silent movies to movies with voice acting?
Depends on what you are actualy looking for. I'd say an MMO has more in common with a "choose your own adventure book" then it does with a movie. Movie's are entirely passive experiences. MMO's come with a certain expectation of interactivity.
It's far easier to do interactivity with text then it is with voice.
For instance, you can pull an actual player characters name into the dialogue with text. You can let them do things like have personaly named companions or pets or mounts and use that in dialogue as well. You can examine what item they are holding in thier hand, what weapon the use most commonly, thier attributes, skills.....what quests they've previously done... what sort of reputation they have, etc....and use all that in dialogue with text.
All those things are alot more difficult to do with Voice because of the number of takes you would have to do to account for different variables. For example....can you ever have a voice dialogue that refers to the character by his/her own name (and let the player choose that name)? The same thing is trivial to do with text.
VO gives you better presentation values.....but text allows for greater depth and personalization in the dialogue.
Personaly I'll take depth and personalization over presentation values in an RPG any day of the week. YMMV.
Though personaly I don't see why a game needs to make a binary choice..... you can do VO for ambients and some simple dialogue and use text when you want to go deeper/more personalized.
I think the problem lies in a different area.
The VO in SWTOR is good, but the link with this kind of graphical fidelity fails.
While VO can certainly convey more depth of emotion than a chat-box or text-box, it needs to do this in conjunction with smooth realistic facial-animation and full-body articulation.
Just moving your lips doesn't cut it imho to make VO "better" than text.
Movies in themselves are not better than books, but they can be if the cinematography, etc. is used appropriately.
"show don't tell" is a motto broadly adopted in visual media. VOs in TOR "tell" too much.
This is of course due to the limits of animations and graphical fidelity in an MMO that cant have as much horse-power as for example Mass Effect or LA Noire.
One thing i hate the most is arm-necrosis on characters.
Whether VO's justify extensive use of cut-scenes is an altogether different question.
A rather important one though, as most of the arguments people are bringing forward against VO in this thread are actually arguments against cutscenes, not VO.
Actually, quite alot of people prefer books over audiobooks. I'm certainly not trying to dismiss people who enjoy VO.....but please don't dismiss the written word as a medium for narritive. It has qualities that are unique to it.
It's a matter of the means of presentation though. A modern game that is presented graphically and lacks voiceover has more in common with a silent movie than it does with a book. How many people honestly prefer silent movies to movies with voice acting?
Nosferatu > Twilight films
So. At leat me.
Well if you're not a teenage girl that makes sense :P.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I guess that depends on how well it "sells" in the marketplace.
What's the pass-abort rate?
If quite high, then apparently other games repeating full VO would be not very cost effective.
If the game sells like hotcakes and most users watch most of the VO's, then it might "catch on".
Adopting it as a must-have would be a little premature before the game even launches.
If Bio adopts it as a company identity thing (appears in all future games), then they bet the whole farm on the one idea. But I don't think even Bio would jump that fence this early.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Either way, i don't think it matters. Most companies simply cannot afford it. MAYBE< if SWTOR is hugely successful, it will encourage others to try it. But if its even considered 'Meh' then it will stand as a justification for NOT having voice overs.
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone www.spankybus.com -3d Artist & Compositor -Writer -Professional Amature
I really hope it's a gimmick. VO is great in moderation (important scenes), but I really don't need to hear VO for some random stupid FedEx quest. I would rather just get on with it.
Also, considering that it's so expensive, I would rather that developer dollars be spent on making the game more fun/innovative than ensuring that every stupid kill 10 rats and FedEx quest has VO.
After this last weekend of testing I think spending money on full VO of minor side quests might have been a waste of money.
The only reason I don't agree is because of AOC and the face slap it was for the VO to just go away.
Yeah, but I think the problem was that AoC was essentially a "bait and switch." The first 20 levels were extremely well done and very polished, but once you get out of Tortage the game takes an instant nose dive in quality.
If VO was consistent with only being in important scenes throughout the entirety of the game, then I think it would be okay.
All I know is that I'm not a fan of voice-overs, myself. I prefer text when an NPC has something to say to me specifically, I prefer ambient sounds that imply people talking in crowded areas, I especially prefer all the options that open up when a dev doesn't have to worry about hiring actors to voice it all.
And yet somehow, I still prefer normal movies, over silent ones. Though if its a foreign movie, I strongly prefer subtitles over dubbing - maybe that'd be a better comparison?
+1
and
Originally posted by Tardcore
I cannot see how most MMO companies could afford to do full VO. SWTOR has been in development since around late 2005 and by Bioware's own admission had an epic budget. While I found the VO content of SWTOR to be excellent, some of the other basic game features such as race choice, and character creation choices, for example, had to be cut down far to lean for my liking. Adding that much VO content was such a herculean task they had to cut back on game development elsewhere. While I'm sure I'm in the minority, I feel the game actually suffers badly from this. I can't imagine how hollow a game made by a company with a normal MMO budget would look if they made such an attempt.
I really hope it's a gimmick. VO is great in moderation (important scenes), but I really don't need to hear VO for some random stupid FedEx quest. I would rather just get on with it.
Also, considering that it's so expensive, I would rather that developer dollars be spent on making the game more fun/innovative than ensuring that every stupid kill 10 rats and FedEx quest has VO.
I think what they wanted to do (whether they succeeded or not is debateable) is to make the game seem less grindy, so that even the trivial side quests that are there just to get you exp would seem like an important story piece. My perception is that they wanted players to always be immersed in the game and enjoy it all the time, rather than just moving to the next quest hub, picking up the 10 quests and grinding them out. It is an admirable design choice, I think, to attempt to do away with the grind nature of mmo's and make the entire game feel fun, whether they succeed or not.
After this last weekend of testing I think spending money on full VO of minor side quests might have been a waste of money.
The only reason I don't agree is because of AOC and the face slap it was for the VO to just go away.
Yeah, but I think the problem was that AoC was essentially a "bait and switch." The first 20 levels were extremely well done and very polished, but once you get out of Tortage the game takes an instant nose dive in quality.
If VO was consistent with only being in important scenes throughout the entirety of the game, then I think it would be okay.
In a sense you could say AOC did just that as VO did continue for certain NPC's and quests. But to me it made the world feel a bit awkward. As you said though overall quality did take a nose-dive throughout the post 20 parts of the game.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Voice over itself isn't that special.. It's that they have made it fun to to actually listen, cause they are actually talking to you and you have to respond. The fact that I can play out whatever role I choose for my character is huge to me and I love that some choices make a difference, be it a snarky remarks granting me dark points or getting someone killed.
The VO in for example Age of Conan bored me, I found little point in listening. Reading or listening to static story makes little difference to me if there's no consequences to just skipping it all together.
If you replaced all the text in WoW with VO, I would skip it all, cause that is not what matters and it's not what makes sw:tor unique.
I enjoy the VOs like anyone else here, they are great and make the quests feel different.
But almost everything else in SWTOR is lacking in many ways, the VOs take away too many resources and slow down content updates.
It would also be a bit sad... i mean... the east is starting to develope sandbox and themepark/sandbox hybrids.
And what do we get here.... more themeparks with VOs, yawn.
IMO the Dynamic System of GW2 will have a bigger impact in the market than VOs, but that's just my opinion, both could get boring after a month.
"Esport with tournaments is for hardcore pvp'rs that want to be competitive. Openworld PVP with ganking and griefing is for casuals that just wants their pvp mixed with pve from time to time." otacu
I'd like to see more cinematic/voice over style elements incorporated into MMORPGS. Do I want them all to be just like TOR? No. Thats not necessary. Even if the whole game was in an alien language and we read subtitles, I would welcome that. I like seeing choreographed cut scenes while playing. It adds style points imo. Do I want to see them everywhere all the time? Nope. Everything in moderation and good taste haha. Simple, right? ;p
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
The game is quite happy to use 'bonus quests' and 'data terminals' to push out quest content without voice. There are also plenty of NPCs that do/say nothing.
- Just like when I read a book, I make up in my own mind how the hero will sound. If it isn't even close it's a big kill-joy. For those that might have read the Dirk Pitt books, just look at Matthew M (Dirk) and his side kick Al G. plus all the rest. Nothing like you'd expect from the books.
- While no-name actors might be cheap, if you spinkle in any stars the cost goes way up. A number of actors have said they actually prefer phoning in work for commerials (especially Japanese ones) instead of doing movies since they pay better in time spent.
- If you pick the wrong actor it bites you in the behind. STO used the new Spock and the yells of outrage where such they redid the work with Leonard Nimoy. In this case my first point also comes into play, Spock should sound like Spock.
- For a game without a voice back story be it SWToR or even Freelancer who you pick doesn't mean quite as much, unless my first point comes into play. A dork still sounds like a dork. How many of you would be saying VO's are great if your hero sounded like he'd been sucking helium?
Wall's of text a la LotRO - No. Short and sweet like AoC - much better. Ya VO's might be nice in a game but not; from a business point of view, if it ties up production time and a good chunk of your budget.
Vo will not be a must have. it depends on what kind of game u make. Games withou vo work just fine . Tor has some great vo but the vo wouldnt matter if it wasnt for bioware story.
If u do vo for story purposes thats great but u dont need vo . I dont think its a fad but i dont think its gonna be a must have. I have played all kinds of games and vo doesnt make a great game it may enhance a game but it doesnt on its own make a great game.
U need all the other stuff that makes a fun game for u for vo to matter so its not a must have.
You also have to wonder why on earth would i play another fully voiced mmo when i wont find one with better story than SWTOR.
It's very logical right? why play a cheap clone of something when i have the original that will always be better, have more content and polish?
But wait, AoC, Lotro, WAR & Rift happened,so we may also start seeing failed SWTOR clones.
"Esport with tournaments is for hardcore pvp'rs that want to be competitive. Openworld PVP with ganking and griefing is for casuals that just wants their pvp mixed with pve from time to time." otacu
- Just like when I read a book, I make up in my own mind how the hero will sound. If it isn't even close it's a big kill-joy. For those that might have read the Dirk Pitt books, just look at Matthew M (Dirk) and his side kick Al G. plus all the rest. Nothing like you'd expect from the books.
- While no-name actors might be cheap, if you spinkle in any stars the cost goes way up. A number of actors have said they actually prefer phoning in work for commerials (especially Japanese ones) instead of doing movies since they pay better in time spent.
- If you pick the wrong actor it bites you in the behind. STO used the new Spock and the yells of outrage where such they redid the work with Leonard Nimoy. In this case my first point also comes into play, Spock should sound like Spock.
- For a game without a voice back story be it SWToR or even Freelancer who you pick doesn't mean quite as much, unless my first point comes into play. A dork still sounds like a dork. How many of you would be saying VO's are great if your hero sounded like he'd been sucking helium?
Wall's of text a la LotRO - No. Short and sweet like AoC - much better. Ya VO's might be nice in a game but not; from a business point of view, if it ties up production time and a good chunk of your budget.
sorry but i dont aggre whit you this is only your opinion its time to take mmo to next level.
do voice overs add something to a game? sure. AoC Tortage section was a great part of that game... and the very sparse smatterin of VO in the greater AoC game... only highlighted it not being in the entire game.
In Swtor. it seems pretty top notch. some of the dialog is cheesy and redonkulous. but the delivery is solid. and it does add a reat element to the game.
This.. verses Rift. which was a new game with the standard wall of text dynamic. I mean... i generally like knowing the lore of games. but gave up early in rift. trying to keep up with the reading.
Now if Swtor is a success in general. and if they can somehow bang out content/prove you can add content and maintain fully voiced . that's another matter all together.
It is nice. but it's not game breaking. And the first game that does it , and tanks. or does it so badly... it'll add the other obvious side to this debate.
that you not only have to add voice. but well done voice. for it to be any good. In WoW all the voice elements were always incredibly cheesy and over the top tripe. added nothing to the game.
my only concern is. Bioware and Swtor is a very forced story. It would be nice to see a mmo that doesn't ram the story so far down your throat. simply having npcs audiebly articulate quest spam would be good enough imo. you don't need a game... fully cutscened/VO dialog. that i think takes away from the game to a degree.
do voice overs add something to a game? sure. AoC Tortage section was a great part of that game... and the very sparse smatterin of VO in the greater AoC game... only highlighted it not being in the entire game.
In Swtor. it seems pretty top notch. some of the dialog is cheesy and redonkulous. but the delivery is solid. and it does add a reat element to the game.
This.. verses Rift. which was a new game with the standard wall of text dynamic. I mean... i generally like knowing the lore of games. but gave up early in rift. trying to keep up with the reading.
Now if Swtor is a success in general. and if they can somehow bang out content/prove you can add content and maintain fully voiced . that's another matter all together.
It is nice. but it's not game breaking. And the first game that does it , and tanks. or does it so badly... it'll add the other obvious side to this debate.
that you not only have to add voice. but well done voice. for it to be any good. In WoW all the voice elements were always incredibly cheesy and over the top tripe. added nothing to the game.
my only concern is. Bioware and Swtor is a very forced story. It would be nice to see a mmo that doesn't ram the story so far down your throat. simply having npcs audiebly articulate quest spam would be good enough imo. you don't need a game... fully cutscened/VO dialog. that i think takes away from the game to a degree.
I agree with your general assessment.
I think what Bioware is trying to do is create immersion. I said earlier that I think that it is admirable of them at least. It's about time that mmo's step up another notch. If you're going to be a themepark, you better be a really immersive themepark, because we are all bored of the same old grind themepark. I think Rift failed here, and I hope SWTOR can deliver here. Otherwise, let's see some more sandbox titles, but themeparks have their advantages, they just need to be played out properly. I think Bioware is on to something.
I ALWAYS hated the need to read quest text. One of the great features of EQ2 was that it had an almost complete voiceover with their quests, and already after that I had a very hard time to go back to text reading. It doesn't have to be so much, but I think text only MMO will be a thing of the past now, at least in any westen quality title. Maybe the many cheap asia games will have none, but every MMO of our market will have to have most of it in VO. Text was old fashion a long time, only the lazyness of Blizzard kept it alive.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Comments
I think the problem lies in a different area.
The VO in SWTOR is good, but the link with this kind of graphical fidelity fails.
While VO can certainly convey more depth of emotion than a chat-box or text-box, it needs to do this in conjunction with smooth realistic facial-animation and full-body articulation.
Just moving your lips doesn't cut it imho to make VO "better" than text.
Movies in themselves are not better than books, but they can be if the cinematography, etc. is used appropriately.
"show don't tell" is a motto broadly adopted in visual media. VOs in TOR "tell" too much.
This is of course due to the limits of animations and graphical fidelity in an MMO that cant have as much horse-power as for example Mass Effect or LA Noire.
One thing i hate the most is arm-necrosis on characters.
A rather important one though, as most of the arguments people are bringing forward against VO in this thread are actually arguments against cutscenes, not VO.
Well if you're not a teenage girl that makes sense :P.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I guess that depends on how well it "sells" in the marketplace.
What's the pass-abort rate?
If quite high, then apparently other games repeating full VO would be not very cost effective.
If the game sells like hotcakes and most users watch most of the VO's, then it might "catch on".
Adopting it as a must-have would be a little premature before the game even launches.
If Bio adopts it as a company identity thing (appears in all future games), then they bet the whole farm on the one idea. But I don't think even Bio would jump that fence this early.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
After this last weekend of testing I think spending money on full VO of minor side quests might have been a waste of money.
My theme song.
The only reason I don't agree is because of AOC and the face slap it was for the VO to just go away.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Either way, i don't think it matters. Most companies simply cannot afford it. MAYBE< if SWTOR is hugely successful, it will encourage others to try it. But if its even considered 'Meh' then it will stand as a justification for NOT having voice overs.
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone
www.spankybus.com
-3d Artist & Compositor
-Writer
-Professional Amature
I really hope it's a gimmick. VO is great in moderation (important scenes), but I really don't need to hear VO for some random stupid FedEx quest. I would rather just get on with it.
Also, considering that it's so expensive, I would rather that developer dollars be spent on making the game more fun/innovative than ensuring that every stupid kill 10 rats and FedEx quest has VO.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Yeah, but I think the problem was that AoC was essentially a "bait and switch." The first 20 levels were extremely well done and very polished, but once you get out of Tortage the game takes an instant nose dive in quality.
If VO was consistent with only being in important scenes throughout the entirety of the game, then I think it would be okay.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
+1
and
+ 1 This.
I think what they wanted to do (whether they succeeded or not is debateable) is to make the game seem less grindy, so that even the trivial side quests that are there just to get you exp would seem like an important story piece. My perception is that they wanted players to always be immersed in the game and enjoy it all the time, rather than just moving to the next quest hub, picking up the 10 quests and grinding them out. It is an admirable design choice, I think, to attempt to do away with the grind nature of mmo's and make the entire game feel fun, whether they succeed or not.
In a sense you could say AOC did just that as VO did continue for certain NPC's and quests. But to me it made the world feel a bit awkward. As you said though overall quality did take a nose-dive throughout the post 20 parts of the game.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Voice over itself isn't that special.. It's that they have made it fun to to actually listen, cause they are actually talking to you and you have to respond. The fact that I can play out whatever role I choose for my character is huge to me and I love that some choices make a difference, be it a snarky remarks granting me dark points or getting someone killed.
The VO in for example Age of Conan bored me, I found little point in listening. Reading or listening to static story makes little difference to me if there's no consequences to just skipping it all together.
If you replaced all the text in WoW with VO, I would skip it all, cause that is not what matters and it's not what makes sw:tor unique.
I enjoy the VOs like anyone else here, they are great and make the quests feel different.
But almost everything else in SWTOR is lacking in many ways, the VOs take away too many resources and slow down content updates.
It would also be a bit sad... i mean... the east is starting to develope sandbox and themepark/sandbox hybrids.
And what do we get here.... more themeparks with VOs, yawn.
IMO the Dynamic System of GW2 will have a bigger impact in the market than VOs, but that's just my opinion, both could get boring after a month.
"Esport with tournaments is for hardcore pvp'rs that want to be competitive. Openworld PVP with ganking and griefing is for casuals that just wants their pvp mixed with pve from time to time."
otacu
its must have now no way that i gona go back to none voice overs.
I'd like to see more cinematic/voice over style elements incorporated into MMORPGS. Do I want them all to be just like TOR? No. Thats not necessary. Even if the whole game was in an alien language and we read subtitles, I would welcome that. I like seeing choreographed cut scenes while playing. It adds style points imo. Do I want to see them everywhere all the time? Nope. Everything in moderation and good taste haha. Simple, right? ;p
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
ToR isn't really 'fully voiced.'
The game is quite happy to use 'bonus quests' and 'data terminals' to push out quest content without voice. There are also plenty of NPCs that do/say nothing.
Gimmick
And I'll give you some reason's why;
- Just like when I read a book, I make up in my own mind how the hero will sound. If it isn't even close it's a big kill-joy. For those that might have read the Dirk Pitt books, just look at Matthew M (Dirk) and his side kick Al G. plus all the rest. Nothing like you'd expect from the books.
- While no-name actors might be cheap, if you spinkle in any stars the cost goes way up. A number of actors have said they actually prefer phoning in work for commerials (especially Japanese ones) instead of doing movies since they pay better in time spent.
- If you pick the wrong actor it bites you in the behind. STO used the new Spock and the yells of outrage where such they redid the work with Leonard Nimoy. In this case my first point also comes into play, Spock should sound like Spock.
- For a game without a voice back story be it SWToR or even Freelancer who you pick doesn't mean quite as much, unless my first point comes into play. A dork still sounds like a dork. How many of you would be saying VO's are great if your hero sounded like he'd been sucking helium?
Wall's of text a la LotRO - No. Short and sweet like AoC - much better. Ya VO's might be nice in a game but not; from a business point of view, if it ties up production time and a good chunk of your budget.
SWG (pre-cu) - AoC (pre-f2p) - PotBS (pre-boarder) - DDO - LotRO (pre-f2p) - STO (pre-f2p) - GnH (beta tester) - SWTOR - Neverwinter
Bioware puts VO's in all its games. How will it stop with its biggest game ever?
Vo will not be a must have. it depends on what kind of game u make. Games withou vo work just fine . Tor has some great vo but the vo wouldnt matter if it wasnt for bioware story.
If u do vo for story purposes thats great but u dont need vo . I dont think its a fad but i dont think its gonna be a must have. I have played all kinds of games and vo doesnt make a great game it may enhance a game but it doesnt on its own make a great game.
U need all the other stuff that makes a fun game for u for vo to matter so its not a must have.
You also have to wonder why on earth would i play another fully voiced mmo when i wont find one with better story than SWTOR.
It's very logical right? why play a cheap clone of something when i have the original that will always be better, have more content and polish?
But wait, AoC, Lotro, WAR & Rift happened,so we may also start seeing failed SWTOR clones.
"Esport with tournaments is for hardcore pvp'rs that want to be competitive. Openworld PVP with ganking and griefing is for casuals that just wants their pvp mixed with pve from time to time."
otacu
sorry but i dont aggre whit you this is only your opinion its time to take mmo to next level.
i think the answer is. it remains to be seen.
do voice overs add something to a game? sure. AoC Tortage section was a great part of that game... and the very sparse smatterin of VO in the greater AoC game... only highlighted it not being in the entire game.
In Swtor. it seems pretty top notch. some of the dialog is cheesy and redonkulous. but the delivery is solid. and it does add a reat element to the game.
This.. verses Rift. which was a new game with the standard wall of text dynamic. I mean... i generally like knowing the lore of games. but gave up early in rift. trying to keep up with the reading.
Now if Swtor is a success in general. and if they can somehow bang out content/prove you can add content and maintain fully voiced . that's another matter all together.
It is nice. but it's not game breaking. And the first game that does it , and tanks. or does it so badly... it'll add the other obvious side to this debate.
that you not only have to add voice. but well done voice. for it to be any good. In WoW all the voice elements were always incredibly cheesy and over the top tripe. added nothing to the game.
my only concern is. Bioware and Swtor is a very forced story. It would be nice to see a mmo that doesn't ram the story so far down your throat. simply having npcs audiebly articulate quest spam would be good enough imo. you don't need a game... fully cutscened/VO dialog. that i think takes away from the game to a degree.
I agree with your general assessment.
I think what Bioware is trying to do is create immersion. I said earlier that I think that it is admirable of them at least. It's about time that mmo's step up another notch. If you're going to be a themepark, you better be a really immersive themepark, because we are all bored of the same old grind themepark. I think Rift failed here, and I hope SWTOR can deliver here. Otherwise, let's see some more sandbox titles, but themeparks have their advantages, they just need to be played out properly. I think Bioware is on to something.
I emphatically agree.
I ALWAYS hated the need to read quest text. One of the great features of EQ2 was that it had an almost complete voiceover with their quests, and already after that I had a very hard time to go back to text reading. It doesn't have to be so much, but I think text only MMO will be a thing of the past now, at least in any westen quality title. Maybe the many cheap asia games will have none, but every MMO of our market will have to have most of it in VO. Text was old fashion a long time, only the lazyness of Blizzard kept it alive.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert