Well, seeing as I never came across 1v1 PvP in SWTOR, I probably can't give any real opinion on this....
In a group, the balance is fine between the classes, the weakest is going to be the one who doesn't know how to play his class, not the class itself.
And because of this I actually think when it goes live the weakest class is going the Shadow/Assassin, cause everyone is expecting some stealth, force, lightsaber, god-type thing from it. The reality of course is that its one of the harder classes to PvP with, so a lot of noobs are going to end up on it and just play it poorly, making it appear weak.
Wich class in your opinion do you think is the best in pvp, also state why.
And wich class you think is by far the worst, and why.
in my experience of playing several months of Closed Beta the Sorc was the be all end all best of the best for pvp due to its dmg , cc and healing abilties ( doubt its changed ) .. Consular was 2nd compared to sorc but due to its longer animations on throw objects it wasn't quite as good.
Next best was Trooper/BH/Sin/shadow
Warrior classes would probably be the worst of them for pvp as they have limited range abilities / Less CC and only one gap closer while all ranged / Hybrid - ranged/melee classes have knock backs and slows.
Although I played a Sith Juggernaut and felt I still did fairly well at pvp in groups , i died to ranged classes in open world easily. IMO this game is no where near balanced in terms of pvp at least it wasn't in the beta. Sorc > Everything else. ( Trooper could sometimes > Sorc .. Sometimes )
Wich class in your opinion do you think is the best in pvp, also state why.
And wich class you think is by far the worst, and why.
in my experience of playing several months of Closed Beta the Sorc was the be all end all best of the best for pvp due to its dmg , cc and healing abilties ( doubt its changed ) .. Consular was 2nd compared to sorc but due to its longer animations on throw objects it wasn't quite as good.
Next best was Trooper/BH/Sin/shadow
Warrior classes would probably be the worst of them for pvp as they have limited range abilities / Less CC and only one gap closer while all ranged / Hybrid - ranged/melee classes have knock backs and slows.
Although I played a Sith Juggernaut and felt I still did fairly well at pvp in groups , i died to ranged classes in open world easily. IMO this game is no where near balanced in terms of pvp at least it wasn't in the beta. Sorc > Everything else. ( Trooper could sometimes > Sorc .. Sometimes )
I killed plenty of Sage's with my Assassin, but then, that was because I was part of a group and we worked together to eliminate targets rather than trying to do things solo.
Range is definitely a big advantage in PvP though.
If the game follows standard MMORPG form whatever class is best at PVP will be nerfed within 3 months and today's weakest class will become the future's OP.
This trend will continue as long as the game is in existence therefore best to play a class you enjoy for its story and not worry about how they fare in PVP.
Odds are, if you are good, you can win with any of the classes in PVP, though perhaps not in every situation.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Nice vid. He mentioned that gunslinger has a couple of 35m skills. Anyone know the range of sniper skills, I thought most where 30m though you would have thought they are greater than GS? Anyone know which has better burst?
He dosen't seem to find the cover mechanic hampering though some seem to?
Nice vid. He mentioned that gunslinger has a couple of 35m skills. Anyone know the range of sniper skills, I thought most where 30m though you would have thought they are greater than GS? Anyone know which has better burst?
He dosen't seem to find the cover mechanic hampering though some seem to?
The same range, sniper and gunslinger are mirrored classes.
I only played up to level 20 as a sniper in the weekend, but in that level range, the class was definitely not weak. I usually ended up with the most medals and often topped off the charts damage - and kills wise as well.
You really need to play the cover classes as true support though, there is no going off solo to do something. Stick with the crowd and you can topple the balance in favour of your group very quickly. But if you get two enemies or more stuck on your ass you're pretty much done for.
You might be able to burst down one guy with some distance, but two can really stick on you until you're dead, because I didn't have many escape abilities to speak of at level 20.
I loved the big hits and generally liked the cover system for the sniper. But I'm probably gonna make a trooper vanguard my main char, as I like taking the initiative a bit too much.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
I'm glad to see others agree Gunslinger to be the worst PvP class. I played one up to lvl 31 and only PvP'ed the last 5 or so lvl's. I had a very difficult time for the most part. Damage was sub-par given the equipment I was using (Armstech with lvl 29 blue crit-based guns). I averaged around 73-75k damage and often died many times.
The biggest problem I had was getting back into cover. If I was CC'ed it would knock me out of cover unless I had the additional shield up. When that happened it would take a few seconds to get back into cover even though I'm smashing on the cover key. This made me easy pickings. Also I think the cover shield itself had something to do with it. The bright blue-green color with those big blinking green lights yelled "I'm over here, come kill me!". The Imp Agent had a red shield that just seemed to hide in the background much better.
I could go on but naa... I was overall disappointed with the class even though I may end up rerolling the same. It's just a cool player to be..... I hope they do something with it. I sent them a pretty good summary when I filled out the after-beta survey email.
Oh yea, put BH on the list for a nerf. Those missiles are insame.
Nobody here will be able to answer those questions for now.
For every person saying a sniper/gunslinger is the worst there are others freaking the #%@ out on the beta boards because they got 3 shot by one.
Tons of people think being the number 1 damage dealer makes you the best ... yet get WTF pwned one on one against certain classes who can't get highest damage in large groups.
Pvp is way too situational and the emphasis on group pvp over various maps and terrain makes it too dynamic to judge most of the time. Duals are and always have been a unique beast.
Also ... LOL @ the poster picking two classes per side being the most powerful and they aren't even mirriors. If one mirror is OP then the other mirrior will also be OP.
There two variables that seems poorly controlled in this debate: player skill and group cohesion. Skill-ful play can compensate for a class's shortcomings, and make a weaker class win against a stronger one, stipulating there are class differences. A group of decent players who know what they are doing and work together can likely beat a group of superstars who go it all alone.
The kill count seems at least ambiguous because it - correct me and comon sense if we're wrong - counts who killed the foe. If you knocked off 99% of a guy's hp and someone gets in the last blow, he gets the count, not you.
Damage output gives you a good number for how much damage a class outputs, though the skills on the bar, how much you get cc'd, time lost to running around, being kited and time getting into cover all make this number very dependant on circumstances.
I would expect BW to run stats on the PvP fights, so they can evaluate the differences.
I don't think there is a best or worst class, only good and bad players, however I think the most poorly played class is the Smuggler Gunslinger.
I've only seen 1 good gunslinger in my time PvPing in beta, and I PvP'd a lot. When you find a good one, they put out a lot of damage, and rarely die unless focus fired -- though they have to keep at range and USE COVER when fighting against certain classes.
...
How odd, in my experience they routinely dominated the warzone in terms of damage. Any time a Gunslinger got down into cover in the back lines of a particularly crowded area, they brought down a few people fast. Especially if a tank peeled for them. They were always coming out on top and getting the marks.
Conversely, in the warzones I did, the Marauder/Sentinel and the Assassin/Shadow seemed to be dieing without accomplishing anything. Also, interestingly, the healing Sages and Sorcs seemed to be dieing too frequently, while the Scoundrels/Operatives healed on and on. I thought that was a selective perception thing and players hadn't yet learnt they needed to focus on those as well.
The most fun AC for me in PVP was Juggernaught. Solid peeler and survivor, can kill as well. Force jump is always a blast, especially when you can jump on top of platforms. Also, get a healer and things get very interesting.
Can't really say how our experiences differed so much, but cover classes in general just don't seem to play their classes very well. Smart players of course put out tons of DPS, but even on my consular, when focused by a cover class, I could just pop a bubble run over there, stun them and take them out myself without any assistance. Usually they would just stand there and go toe to toe with me, or in the case of some IAs I went up against.. try and circle strafe me and use their shiv/backstab abilities, which rarely if ever did enough damage to break my bubble by the time they were stunned and hurting badly.
There were times I went down in a couple seconds on my Sage... but it was always due to focus fire, and even in a 5 on 1 scenario, I could usually stay alive long enough to use force wave, or throw a bubble up and force speed away with CC immunity. (unless those were on CD)
Can't really speak to the shadows or assassins, I rarely healed them in PvP, mostly because I rarely saw them.
Heh , let's go through the eyes and brains of a Dev for a moment here because to anwser this question , logic needs to be applied , I know it might seem painful but it isn't if your smart enough ;
1- When creating PvP , the point is to have classes having skills being able to affect / counter act the opposing class.
2- Having one best class out of all others in PvP = a broken down MMO that won't last long and needs to be fixed ASAP.
3- the old moto "You'll win some and lose some" also applies to MMO , your class might suck against another class but will dominate against another and vice versa.
4- In the end it's just how good your at infront (or behind for some) of your keyboard and how smart you are at picking your fights. Going to a gun fight with a knife , unless your a ninja and never taken any arrows to the knee , good luck.
I hate to sound like I'm being a call-girl for Bioware, but through my combined fourty-something levels of Sith Warrior and Agent, I though everything was relatively even across the board.
That's not to say I did't find any situations where I totally felt NERDRAEG or simply out-of-luck, but overall I'd say things seem to be in a nice place.
If I could pick on one class just because: SCREW YOU, Consular. I hate you.
I started breaking 200k damage around level 12 in some longer PUG matches. In the video above, I got ~190k damage and didn't receive any meaningful healing for the majority of the match.
I was highlyskeptical of the Cover mechanic before trying it. If you know me from RIFT or WoW (e.g. the stickied Prot Pally Cata 2k PVP Guide is mine), you know that I am a big believer in mobility for PVP.
That being said, despite my doubts, Cover doesn't just work in PVP - it works effectively.
Cover makes you uninterruptable, unchargeable, unpullable, and unpuntable. On top of that, you get an AOE knockback in Cover, and you have 3 CCs by level 16 which are usable in or out of Cover:
instant-cast ranged root
a melee stun
AOE ranged incapacitate
Gunslinger / Sniper has more than enough tools once an opponent CCs them or closes the gap to re-open a gap and get back into Cover.
Cover is a turret mechanic, you have to play it as such. You find a good spot, turret, and move when you need to, then re-turret. You can pack out incredible amounts of burst and sustained damage as a GS / Sniper. It's just a matter of sorting out the playstyle and mechanics.
If you are looking for more GS footage, check out my stream recordings:
I can't link the majority of my videos due to getting flagged for spam.
Originally posted by alemaris
I'm glad to see others agree Gunslinger to be the worst PvP class. I played one up to lvl 31 and only PvP'ed the last 5 or so lvl's. I had a very difficult time for the most part. Damage was sub-par given the equipment I was using (Armstech with lvl 29 blue crit-based guns). I averaged around 73-75k damage and often died many times.
The biggest problem I had was getting back into cover. If I was CC'ed it would knock me out of cover unless I had the additional shield up. When that happened it would take a few seconds to get back into cover even though I'm smashing on the cover key. This made me easy pickings. Also I think the cover shield itself had something to do with it. The bright blue-green color with those big blinking green lights yelled "I'm over here, come kill me!". The Imp Agent had a red shield that just seemed to hide in the background much better.
I could go on but naa... I was overall disappointed with the class even though I may end up rerolling the same. It's just a cool player to be..... I hope they do something with it. I sent them a pretty good summary when I filled out the after-beta survey email.
About what I highlighted above, you may have been running into an issue I figured out during one of my streams.
If you try to activate Cover from an ability on a quickslot (hotkey) bar, you may get some "lag" before it activates. The delay was crippling in PVP. I did some testing and realized that the Cover keybinds work fine, but activating Cover from an ability on a quickslot bar doesn't work consistently. So take the Cover abilities off your quickslots, and bind Take Cover and Take Cover in Place to keybinds.
At any rate, I disagree with everything you wrote above. GS / Sniper is a high-functioning class in PVP, even when PUG'ing.
For reference, I played 6 of the 8 Advanced Class archetypes in Beta, and I have published AC videos for 5 of the 8. All of the videos feature detailed narration, discussion of mechanics, and tips and tactics.
I would post more links but they keep getting flagged as spam, so if any of you are curious about ACs, check out my blog for the narrated videos and my streams which all have live commentary.
If you have questions about SWTOR PVP, post them to my Twitter or blog, and I'll do my best to answer them.
As I said before I enjoyed the vid. Whilst there are lots of weekend beta vids there are farily few with decent commentary. I had kind of thought I would roll sith saucer first, as it is looking like the FOTM I was looking at other choices. I am almost sold on sniper, the vid playing a fair part in that.
Comments
Well, seeing as I never came across 1v1 PvP in SWTOR, I probably can't give any real opinion on this....
In a group, the balance is fine between the classes, the weakest is going to be the one who doesn't know how to play his class, not the class itself.
And because of this I actually think when it goes live the weakest class is going the Shadow/Assassin, cause everyone is expecting some stealth, force, lightsaber, god-type thing from it. The reality of course is that its one of the harder classes to PvP with, so a lot of noobs are going to end up on it and just play it poorly, making it appear weak.
in my experience of playing several months of Closed Beta the Sorc was the be all end all best of the best for pvp due to its dmg , cc and healing abilties ( doubt its changed ) .. Consular was 2nd compared to sorc but due to its longer animations on throw objects it wasn't quite as good.
Next best was Trooper/BH/Sin/shadow
Warrior classes would probably be the worst of them for pvp as they have limited range abilities / Less CC and only one gap closer while all ranged / Hybrid - ranged/melee classes have knock backs and slows.
Although I played a Sith Juggernaut and felt I still did fairly well at pvp in groups , i died to ranged classes in open world easily. IMO this game is no where near balanced in terms of pvp at least it wasn't in the beta. Sorc > Everything else. ( Trooper could sometimes > Sorc .. Sometimes )
Another FOM thread.... that was quick. The game haven't even launched yet
Best class for PvP in my opinion? Jedi Knight Guardian.
Why? Because i really, really like playing tanks in PvP when they are viable.
I killed plenty of Sage's with my Assassin, but then, that was because I was part of a group and we worked together to eliminate targets rather than trying to do things solo.
Range is definitely a big advantage in PvP though.
If the game follows standard MMORPG form whatever class is best at PVP will be nerfed within 3 months and today's weakest class will become the future's OP.
This trend will continue as long as the game is in existence therefore best to play a class you enjoy for its story and not worry about how they fare in PVP.
Odds are, if you are good, you can win with any of the classes in PVP, though perhaps not in every situation.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Nice vid. He mentioned that gunslinger has a couple of 35m skills. Anyone know the range of sniper skills, I thought most where 30m though you would have thought they are greater than GS? Anyone know which has better burst?
He dosen't seem to find the cover mechanic hampering though some seem to?
The same range, sniper and gunslinger are mirrored classes.
I only played up to level 20 as a sniper in the weekend, but in that level range, the class was definitely not weak. I usually ended up with the most medals and often topped off the charts damage - and kills wise as well.
You really need to play the cover classes as true support though, there is no going off solo to do something. Stick with the crowd and you can topple the balance in favour of your group very quickly. But if you get two enemies or more stuck on your ass you're pretty much done for.
You might be able to burst down one guy with some distance, but two can really stick on you until you're dead, because I didn't have many escape abilities to speak of at level 20.
I loved the big hits and generally liked the cover system for the sniper. But I'm probably gonna make a trooper vanguard my main char, as I like taking the initiative a bit too much.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
with out a doubt its the Jawa Gardner, serioulsy what does a Jawa know about gardening.
All the wrong and bias information in this thread is great... lol
I'm glad to see others agree Gunslinger to be the worst PvP class. I played one up to lvl 31 and only PvP'ed the last 5 or so lvl's. I had a very difficult time for the most part. Damage was sub-par given the equipment I was using (Armstech with lvl 29 blue crit-based guns). I averaged around 73-75k damage and often died many times.
The biggest problem I had was getting back into cover. If I was CC'ed it would knock me out of cover unless I had the additional shield up. When that happened it would take a few seconds to get back into cover even though I'm smashing on the cover key. This made me easy pickings. Also I think the cover shield itself had something to do with it. The bright blue-green color with those big blinking green lights yelled "I'm over here, come kill me!". The Imp Agent had a red shield that just seemed to hide in the background much better.
I could go on but naa... I was overall disappointed with the class even though I may end up rerolling the same. It's just a cool player to be..... I hope they do something with it. I sent them a pretty good summary when I filled out the after-beta survey email.
Oh yea, put BH on the list for a nerf. Those missiles are insame.
Nobody here will be able to answer those questions for now.
For every person saying a sniper/gunslinger is the worst there are others freaking the #%@ out on the beta boards because they got 3 shot by one.
Tons of people think being the number 1 damage dealer makes you the best ... yet get WTF pwned one on one against certain classes who can't get highest damage in large groups.
Pvp is way too situational and the emphasis on group pvp over various maps and terrain makes it too dynamic to judge most of the time. Duals are and always have been a unique beast.
Also ... LOL @ the poster picking two classes per side being the most powerful and they aren't even mirriors. If one mirror is OP then the other mirrior will also be OP.
You stay sassy!
gunslingers are easy to be killed and if left alone is easy to kill people with one = balanced
Don't know about 2 shotting people though 4 or 5 yeah maybe...
There two variables that seems poorly controlled in this debate: player skill and group cohesion. Skill-ful play can compensate for a class's shortcomings, and make a weaker class win against a stronger one, stipulating there are class differences. A group of decent players who know what they are doing and work together can likely beat a group of superstars who go it all alone.
The kill count seems at least ambiguous because it - correct me and comon sense if we're wrong - counts who killed the foe. If you knocked off 99% of a guy's hp and someone gets in the last blow, he gets the count, not you.
Damage output gives you a good number for how much damage a class outputs, though the skills on the bar, how much you get cc'd, time lost to running around, being kited and time getting into cover all make this number very dependant on circumstances.
I would expect BW to run stats on the PvP fights, so they can evaluate the differences.
Interesting discussion, nonetheless.
Can't really say how our experiences differed so much, but cover classes in general just don't seem to play their classes very well. Smart players of course put out tons of DPS, but even on my consular, when focused by a cover class, I could just pop a bubble run over there, stun them and take them out myself without any assistance. Usually they would just stand there and go toe to toe with me, or in the case of some IAs I went up against.. try and circle strafe me and use their shiv/backstab abilities, which rarely if ever did enough damage to break my bubble by the time they were stunned and hurting badly.
There were times I went down in a couple seconds on my Sage... but it was always due to focus fire, and even in a 5 on 1 scenario, I could usually stay alive long enough to use force wave, or throw a bubble up and force speed away with CC immunity. (unless those were on CD)
Can't really speak to the shadows or assassins, I rarely healed them in PvP, mostly because I rarely saw them.
Heh , let's go through the eyes and brains of a Dev for a moment here because to anwser this question , logic needs to be applied , I know it might seem painful but it isn't if your smart enough ;
1- When creating PvP , the point is to have classes having skills being able to affect / counter act the opposing class.
2- Having one best class out of all others in PvP = a broken down MMO that won't last long and needs to be fixed ASAP.
3- the old moto "You'll win some and lose some" also applies to MMO , your class might suck against another class but will dominate against another and vice versa.
4- In the end it's just how good your at infront (or behind for some) of your keyboard and how smart you are at picking your fights. Going to a gun fight with a knife , unless your a ninja and never taken any arrows to the knee , good luck.
I cannot speak for the best class.
But for the worst? Any class I play since I am teh suck @pvp. #isuckatpvptoo
I hate to sound like I'm being a call-girl for Bioware, but through my combined fourty-something levels of Sith Warrior and Agent, I though everything was relatively even across the board.
That's not to say I did't find any situations where I totally felt NERDRAEG or simply out-of-luck, but overall I'd say things seem to be in a nice place.
If I could pick on one class just because: SCREW YOU, Consular. I hate you.
Lol, I think everybody has bad days. I just have fun while pvping. Sometimes you win, sometimes you loose.
So that was my video.
I started breaking 200k damage around level 12 in some longer PUG matches. In the video above, I got ~190k damage and didn't receive any meaningful healing for the majority of the match.
I was highly skeptical of the Cover mechanic before trying it. If you know me from RIFT or WoW (e.g. the stickied Prot Pally Cata 2k PVP Guide is mine), you know that I am a big believer in mobility for PVP.
That being said, despite my doubts, Cover doesn't just work in PVP - it works effectively.
Cover makes you uninterruptable, unchargeable, unpullable, and unpuntable. On top of that, you get an AOE knockback in Cover, and you have 3 CCs by level 16 which are usable in or out of Cover:
instant-cast ranged root
a melee stun
AOE ranged incapacitate
Gunslinger / Sniper has more than enough tools once an opponent CCs them or closes the gap to re-open a gap and get back into Cover.
Cover is a turret mechanic, you have to play it as such. You find a good spot, turret, and move when you need to, then re-turret. You can pack out incredible amounts of burst and sustained damage as a GS / Sniper. It's just a matter of sorting out the playstyle and mechanics.
If you are looking for more GS footage, check out my stream recordings:
Taugrim's SWTOR PVP | Clutch Comeback in Alderaan with 15 Gunslinger (queued up in this one with 2 guildees who were totally new to Alderaan and SWTOR PVP)
Taugrim's SWTOR PVP with live commentary | Smuggler Gunslinger @ 15
I can't link the majority of my videos due to getting flagged for spam.
About what I highlighted above, you may have been running into an issue I figured out during one of my streams.
If you try to activate Cover from an ability on a quickslot (hotkey) bar, you may get some "lag" before it activates. The delay was crippling in PVP. I did some testing and realized that the Cover keybinds work fine, but activating Cover from an ability on a quickslot bar doesn't work consistently. So take the Cover abilities off your quickslots, and bind Take Cover and Take Cover in Place to keybinds.
At any rate, I disagree with everything you wrote above. GS / Sniper is a high-functioning class in PVP, even when PUG'ing.
For reference, I played 6 of the 8 Advanced Class archetypes in Beta, and I have published AC videos for 5 of the 8. All of the videos feature detailed narration, discussion of mechanics, and tips and tactics.
I would post more links but they keep getting flagged as spam, so if any of you are curious about ACs, check out my blog for the narrated videos and my streams which all have live commentary.
If you have questions about SWTOR PVP, post them to my Twitter or blog, and I'll do my best to answer them.
Enjoy the launch this week, I'm totally pumped
Taugrim
taugrim.com | pro guides, pro gameplay
@taugrim | stream | narrated videos | GAMEBREAKER Host
Best is Jedi Guardian, Defense, because thats what I want to play.
Worst is Gunslinger, because thats a class I dont want to play at all.
As I said before I enjoyed the vid. Whilst there are lots of weekend beta vids there are farily few with decent commentary. I had kind of thought I would roll sith saucer first, as it is looking like the FOTM I was looking at other choices. I am almost sold on sniper, the vid playing a fair part in that.