You're trying to tell me that, through 50 levels of questing, pvp, and raiding that you're not going to be able to differentiate your buffs and debuffs from someone elses'?
That sounds like something you acquire an eye for when just starting to learn your class.
Not at all. I've already adjusted to looking for those procs on my Assassin in beta. Every 10 seconds I would start looking for that icon to pop up.
I'm trying to tell you that it's a sloppy and poorly designed system and it needs to be improved. A player shouldn't have to fight the UI to assimilate information.
I guess that would depend on the player. A player (me) didn't have that issue at all. A player (you) might have.
I think we have established that you think you are God's gift to MMO's maskedweasel. Congratulations on your epicness.
As stated its a point of perception, you apparently have a problem, just because you do, doesn't mean everyone does. You aren't the only player in the game.
Lol, seeing as how you selectively quoted my post, and then disregarded my last one, its quite simple to see you aren't even reading them, or if you are barely comprehending them. We'll just leave it at, agree to disagree. The UI will be how it is whether we like it or not, you can choose to play based on that or not.
Keep that in mind when they inevitably change it.
Again, doesn't matter whether they do or not.. do you really think making it easier is going to somehow hurt me? I'm saying plainly, it is, how it is, people don't have issues with it as it stands now. If they make it easier, great, if they don't change it, well I guess we'll be hearing more whining about it.
You must react to something, such as a parry, which is easily identifiable by the hotkey showing up. I enjoyed games that offered only a combat log to determine if you could throw a reactive ability, no glowing icon .. nothing. I've said it a few times before but all of these changes some of you folks are wanting will do nothing but further simplify this game. I ENJOY not having Mods, Macros, and big glowing " Click your Riposte ability now!" ques. When I win in pvp/pve its because I did everything right, not because I was prompted to use an ability.
You're trying to tell me that, through 50 levels of questing, pvp, and raiding that you're not going to be able to differentiate your buffs and debuffs from someone elses'?
That sounds like something you acquire an eye for when just starting to learn your class.
Not at all. I've already adjusted to looking for those procs on my Assassin in beta. Every 10 seconds I would start looking for that icon to pop up.
I'm trying to tell you that it's a sloppy and poorly designed system and it needs to be improved. A player shouldn't have to fight the UI to assimilate information.
I guess that would depend on the player. A player (me) didn't have that issue at all. A player (you) might have.
I think we have established that you think you are God's gift to MMO's maskedweasel. Congratulations on your epicness.
As stated its a point of perception, you apparently have a problem, just because you do, doesn't mean everyone does. You aren't the only player in the game.
No, what you have been digging to establish is that "good" players are OK with poor UI systems, and that bad players are not. And of course that *you* are a *good* player, which you try to squiggle in to almost every post you make.
This is completely disregarding the fact that several of the people in this thread complaining about this particular system have no issue adapting to it (even though it bad), but that the system should be improved.
I think people get so worked up and miss the fact I'm trying to bring up things that are good for the game as a whole. Why would I want a game that im buying and going ot play fail? I love star wars I want this game to be great.. Theres tons of little things I have found over my years in MMOs that i found I and many people like that I feel will allow players to enjoy the game more... I had the very long thread abut the lifeless world detailing a lot of these concerns. This is another example.. very small additions that can be big helpers to the game as a whole. Maybe you don't see it but from my experience in MMOs since they started I have noticed things that allow most people to enjoy the game better and I'm trying my best to get those points out there and hopefully improve upon the game to help it in the future.
This is all based on your personal perception of things. A "lifeless world" is another perception that people may or may not share with you, as with this "issue" here.
You have to understand, I've been playing many MMOs for quite a few years myself, I was in CBT for quite a long time, through all of that, these are very minor issues, if considered issues at all. They don't add much of anything other than aesthetic value, when contextual value is much more important at this stage in the games development.
A few months after launch, sure, perhaps we could see some indicators -- hopefully not macros -- and maybe an increase in NPC population, but again, as you can clearly tell from this thread, even those of you complaining about it, are still buying the game, you're still playing the game... these small issues don't stop population growth.
If they impact the game at all its only in very long-term instances.
Its not like I'm against the addition of this, where honestly, I just think its pointless to waste a resource on something that won't add any additional playability and reduces the necessity to pay attention to what you're doing. If it was added, it wouldn't phase me at all, but I'd rather them fix the UI and the Map rather then waste resources on functional features in this stage of development.
Lol, seeing as how you selectively quoted my post, and then disregarded my last one, its quite simple to see you aren't even reading them, or if you are barely comprehending them. We'll just leave it at, agree to disagree. The UI will be how it is whether we like it or not, you can choose to play based on that or not.
Keep that in mind when they inevitably change it.
Again, doesn't matter whether they do or not.. do you really think making it easier is going to somehow hurt me? I'm saying plainly, it is, how it is, people don't have issues with it as it stands now. If they make it easier, great, if they don't change it, well I guess we'll be hearing more whining about it.
Obviously you do, otherwise you wouldn't care. Only someone with something to lose argues against a obvious improvement. Otherwise your contribution to this post would have been, "this is a good idea, it improves the game for new players and makes it more accessible". Obviously, it wasn't.
You think that this arcaic system gives you as edge as a *good* player, and thus you don't want to see it changed.
I think we have established that you think you are God's gift to MMO's maskedweasel. Congratulations on your epicness.
As stated its a point of perception, you apparently have a problem, just because you do, doesn't mean everyone does. You aren't the only player in the game.
No, what you have been digging to establish is that "good" players are OK with poor UI systems, and that bad players are not. And of course that *you* are a *good* player, which you try to squiggle in to almost every post you make.
This is completely disregarding the fact that several of the people in this thread complaining about this particular system have no issue adapting to it (even though it bad), but that the system should be improved.
I guess its devolved into that then, that a "good" player actually pays attention to their character and doesn't allow a status bar to run their characters abilities, while a "poor" player has an issue seeing whats on the field and whats happening on your skill bar. If thats how you want to signify the differences thats fine -- but it is a point of perception, some people have an issue, others apparently don't.
If that makes one player better than another... well its a video game... some players are just better than others. If having an on screen guide wave its arms when an ability is ready somehow closes the gap between the "good" and "bad" players, then I guess thats what will have to happen.
If those players had no issue "adapting" then it wouldn't be an issue.
This is all based on your personal perception of things. A "lifeless world" is another perception that people may or may not share with you, as with this "issue" here.
You have to understand, I've been playing many MMOs for quite a few years myself, I was in CBT for quite a long time, through all of that, these are very minor issues, if considered issues at all. They don't add much of anything other than aesthetic value, when contextual value is much more important at this stage in the games development.
A few months after launch, sure, perhaps we could see some indicators -- hopefully not macros -- and maybe an increase in NPC population, but again, as you can clearly tell from this thread, even those of you complaining about it, are still buying the game, you're still playing the game... these small issues don't stop population growth.
If they impact the game at all its only in very long-term instances.
Its not like I'm against the addition of this, where honestly, I just think its pointless to waste a resource on something that won't add any additional playability and reduces the necessity to pay attention to what you're doing. If it was added, it wouldn't phase me at all, but I'd rather them fix the UI and the Map rather then waste resources on functional features in this stage of development.
A new MMO wants to attract as many new players right off the bat as possible. To just say well maybe couple months down the road it will be added is not the point. If they want to appeal to a broader group of people little things like this have no reason to not be in the game at launch.
A new MMO wants to attract as many new players right off the bat as possible. To just say well maybe couple months down the road it will be added is not the point. If they want to appeal to a broader group of people little things like this have no reason to not be in the game at launch.
They have because things like this are made for the lazy crowd. Give them one option they are going to cry for more exactly what ruined Rift for many gamers. Trion made it into WoW 2.0 instead of sticking to their own goals.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
I guess its devolved into that then, that a "good" player actually pays attention to their character and doesn't allow a status bar to run their characters abilities, while a "poor" player has an issue seeing whats on the field and whats happening on your skill bar. If thats how you want to signify the differences thats fine -- but it is a point of perception, some people have an issue, others apparently don't.
If that makes one player better than another... well its a video game... some players are just better than others. If having an on screen guide wave its arms when an ability is ready somehow closes the gap between the "good" and "bad" players, then I guess thats what will have to happen.
If those players had no issue "adapting" then it wouldn't be an issue.
And some players believe that what makes one player better than another is not looking at a buff bar, but instead things like positioning, using the appropriate ability at the appropriate time, skill synergy, understanding of the other classes abilities, using environmental effects (los), reacting to the situation at hand properly, anticipation of your opponent... etc etc
You seem to think that fighting a poor UI scheme should factor into that equation, I think the UI should work w/ you to allow you to focus on the things I previously mentioned.
We'll have to agree to disagree, cause I personally think your opinion of proper game design sucks.
Yeah I do understand that perspective perfectly fine, but when it comes down to it, I ask myself “what is more important, lower the skill cap of the game by a small % and make it accessible for many more people, potential customers at that, or leave it as it is, making it much harder for people with inherit disadvantages to be competitive?” What’s the trade off? It’s all about perspective and priority. I personally would rather the game be more accessible. That gap between the average player and the “pro” player would be lowered somewhat as a by-product of this, but which is really more important? The obvious answer would be the latter for some, and the former for others, but broadly speaking which is more valid? Or better put, which is less trivial? I think it’s pretty clear when you look at it from a non-bias standpoint. Basically the affect that such a change would have on the “skill disparity” of the average player would not be too noticeable, but the affect it could have on accessibility could potentially be quite healthy indeed.
very good point to the OP going to add this to OP
Happy to contribute.
If we're talking about the same thing, I think you've made a mistake by adding this to your OP.
I seem to recall everyone coming to the understanding that it was not about difficulty, and instead convenience.
A convenience implies you don't have a reliance on the actual mechanic; however, in the post with highlights you clearly indicate that it would provide a crutch for non-pros to lessen the gap between pros.
Sounds to me like you're saying people who would not normally be considered pro would be given the opportunity they would not originally have had. Not saying this is bad, but certainly contradictory to prior argument that reducing the difficulty was not the issue. In the posts above, it is more than obvious.
It’s about different things for different people. Not sure if you have read any of my posts but I am here talking about accessibility, not convenience.
Also no, that is not what I am saying. As I have said previously, and even in the very text you quoted, the effect such a change would have on the “skill disparity” between average players and players that are to be considered “pro” would be very minimal. Trivial even. What I am saying however is that it could potentially be beneficial for people with inherit disadvantages and disabilities. That’s different. That’s accessibility. No contradiction.
You're trying to tell me that, through 50 levels of questing, pvp, and raiding that you're not going to be able to differentiate your buffs and debuffs from someone elses'?
That sounds like something you acquire an eye for when just starting to learn your class.
Not at all. I've already adjusted to looking for those procs on my Assassin in beta. Every 10 seconds I would start looking for that icon to pop up.
I'm trying to tell you that it's a sloppy and poorly designed system and it needs to be improved. A player shouldn't have to fight the UI to assimilate information.
I guess that would depend on the player. A player (me) didn't have that issue at all. A player (you) might have.
I think we have established that you think you are God's gift to MMO's maskedweasel. Congratulations on your epicness.
As stated its a point of perception, you apparently have a problem, just because you do, doesn't mean everyone does. You aren't the only player in the game.
Exactly. Just because you don't have a problem, doesn't mean nobody does. You aren't the only player in the game.
A new MMO wants to attract as many new players right off the bat as possible. To just say well maybe couple months down the road it will be added is not the point. If they want to appeal to a broader group of people little things like this have no reason to not be in the game at launch.
Eh, of course they do, its called time and cost, not to mention the ability to actually implement and test these changes.
Everything is functional and polished extremely well... and the fact is, if this was in any way a cause for major concern, they would have done something about it based on the feedback we've given them through YEARS of testing.
But it wasn't because -- in the scope of important things to do -- this was last on the list. Aesthetic implementation is the least of their worries, its more important to have a large swath of content.
I mean honestly would you rather have them create and polish 3 warzones - or would you rather them have calculated and imlpemented seasons and a day and night cycle?
One adds nothing but an aesthetic value.. the other adds lasting content. Likewise as I stated previously, would you rather have something like a flashing signal where they already have a status bar and icon (a reactive indicator) or would you rather them revamp the map - adding resizability and double point functionality?
One is completely aesthetic, the others increase longevity and functionality. When you're getting a game out the door and polishing it up for launch, trimming the fat is important, and hence, why some of this isn't even bothered with at that stage.
Thats not to say it won't be implemented, but people aren't cancelling preorders or subscriptions over reactive indicators or day and night cycles, or even "lifeless worlds". They will however, cancel over a lack of content, or minimal to no functionality...
I guess its devolved into that then, that a "good" player actually pays attention to their character and doesn't allow a status bar to run their characters abilities, while a "poor" player has an issue seeing whats on the field and whats happening on your skill bar. If thats how you want to signify the differences thats fine -- but it is a point of perception, some people have an issue, others apparently don't.
If that makes one player better than another... well its a video game... some players are just better than others. If having an on screen guide wave its arms when an ability is ready somehow closes the gap between the "good" and "bad" players, then I guess thats what will have to happen.
If those players had no issue "adapting" then it wouldn't be an issue.
And some players believe that what makes one player better than another is not looking at a buff bar, but instead things like positioning, using the appropriate ability at the appropriate time, skill synergy, understanding of the other classes abilities, using environmental effects (los), reacting to the situation at hand properly, anticipation of your opponent... etc etc
You seem to think that fighting a poor UI scheme should factor into that equation, I think the UI should work w/ you to allow you to focus on the things I previously mentioned.
We'll have to agree to disagree, cause I personally think your opinion of proper game design sucks.
You're trying to tell me that, through 50 levels of questing, pvp, and raiding that you're not going to be able to differentiate your buffs and debuffs from someone elses'?
That sounds like something you acquire an eye for when just starting to learn your class.
Not at all. I've already adjusted to looking for those procs on my Assassin in beta. Every 10 seconds I would start looking for that icon to pop up.
I'm trying to tell you that it's a sloppy and poorly designed system and it needs to be improved. A player shouldn't have to fight the UI to assimilate information.
I guess that would depend on the player. A player (me) didn't have that issue at all. A player (you) might have.
I think we have established that you think you are God's gift to MMO's maskedweasel. Congratulations on your epicness.
As stated its a point of perception, you apparently have a problem, just because you do, doesn't mean everyone does. You aren't the only player in the game.
Exactly. Just because you don't have a problem, doesn't mean nobody does. You aren't the only player in the game.
Exactly! That doesn't mean that I'm right, or they are right, its a matter of perception. BioWare will listen to the feedback, if they decide to add it, great, if not, then they won't. people playing will have to deal either way.
Complaining on this forum isn't exactly going to accomplish anything. Getting angry at me because I disagree with the need for it right now won't change the fact that its unlikely a feature like this will be available on launch.
Woah, quite the stirr that little button or the lack of it is weaving.
Everyone should remember that BW has confirmed addons or the support for addons at least shortly after launch, so it will very soon become irrelevant if reactive button in middle of the screen is added or not since there will be a dozen of addons for that function soon.
ok so ive been reading through this and trying to understand something.
how do you know when your cooldowns are up?
you have to watch your bars anyway. so why does the indicator need to be any different than what is there?
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
I don't think I've fully and adequetely clarified my view. Let me start over:
There is a simple premise that is accepted by many players and most game developers: that the less the player is required to look at sideline UI elemets, and the more they are allowed to watch (and gleam important information from) the actual battlefield/gamespace, the better.
Given the above premise, the visual cues that signifiy when a reactive ability is available for use (particularly ones that can only be used after a block, dodge, parry, or the like) should come in a form that requires as little looking away from the actual battlefield and towards various sideline UI elements as possible. Things like the visual actions/animations of yourself, your enemies, and your allies, as well as things such as the sparkly particle effects that appear in the actual game world to highlight lootable corpses and quest items in many MMO's are all examples of cues that happen within the actual gamespace. Such cues should NOT (at least exclusively) come in the form of an icon at the bottom or side of your screen becoming slightly more colorful.
A few examples of how to accomplish this rather simple goal:
1. If an ability can only be activated after blocking an attack, make it known to players that they have succesfully blocked an attack and can thus now use their "Counter Slash" ability by way of clearly animating their character raising his shield and successfully deflecting an enemy's sword with an appropriate "sword being deflected by a shield" sound effect.
2. If the player has damage numbers that float above character's heads enabled (which is usually a good idea), have a line of text appear in the same manner as those numbers in clear, easy to read type, that says something along the lines of "Attack blocked successfully!" or merely "Blocked!"
3. Have the entire screen become noticably tinted when an ability becomes usable (for e.g., tint the screen red when "Bloody Berserker Rage" becomes available) .
4. Less ideally, have a popup icon that appears within/around the primary viewing space (typically near the middle of the screen).
(2, 3 and 4 should, of course, be optionally enabled or disabled)
There are plenty of other things a developer can do, of course (like potentially making the player's shield glow when a reactive shield ability is useable), but you get the idea.
Ultimately this is a rather minor issue, but it's one worth discussing, as any feature that goes against the premise stated above, no matter how minor an impact such a feature may ultimatley have, should be looked at critically.
ok so ive been reading through this and trying to understand something.
how do you know when your cooldowns are up?
you have to watch your bars anyway. so why does the indicator need to be any different than what is there?
Because some people are spoiled with UIs, that basically are playing the game for you. Watching an usual UI bar seems to be to much of a task for them. An UI needs to be scale and moveable plus minimalistic but thats about it, no need for easymode stuff.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
ok so ive been reading through this and trying to understand something.
how do you know when your cooldowns are up?
you have to watch your bars anyway. so why does the indicator need to be any different than what is there?
Because some people are spoiled with UIs, that basically are playing the game for you. Watching an usual UI bar seems to be to much of a task for them. An UI needs to be scale and moveable plus minimalistic but thats about it, no need for easymode stuff.
This. When the proc indicator lights and notices showed up in wow last year the worst raiders in our guild (going by dps for their classes) added between 15-20 percent relative to everyone else overnight. Why? Because the game told them the right way to play. They had been doing it wrong, and the game made it nearly impossible for them to do it wrong anymore. We had been trying to get them to use their procs before, but they simply weren't attentive enough, until they had lights and flashes installed.
Edit: Also, tanking in wow it was easy enough to see when I dodged or parried an attack through the animations, the same in SWTOR so I don't see why you wouldn't know it was ready to use simply from paying attention to what's going on.
Originally posted by DerWotan Originally posted by azmundai ok so ive been reading through this and trying to understand something. how do you know when your cooldowns are up? you have to watch your bars anyway. so why does the indicator need to be any different than what is there?
Because some people are spoiled with UIs, that basically are playing the game for you. Watching an usual UI bar seems to be to much of a task for them. An UI needs to be scale and moveable plus minimalistic but thats about it, no need for easymode stuff.
maybe they arent using their cooldowns? I find that hard to believe though. There were a lot of situations where I was slightly below level and presented with a 3(silver) pack that was a little harrowing, and making use of every skill I had was necessary to squeek by. And though I only had 1 reaction ability, I found it's obviousness above adequate.
It would be nice as someone above said, if there were sounds and animations that would portray it .. but that is a lot of work for something that is already functional if not ideal for everyone.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
ok so ive been reading through this and trying to understand something.
how do you know when your cooldowns are up?
you have to watch your bars anyway. so why does the indicator need to be any different than what is there?
Because some people are spoiled with UIs, that basically are playing the game for you. Watching an usual UI bar seems to be to much of a task for them. An UI needs to be scale and moveable plus minimalistic but thats about it, no need for easymode stuff.
maybe they arent using their cooldowns? I find that hard to believe though. There were a lot of situations where I was slightly below level and presented with a 3(silver) pack that was a little harrowing, and making use of every skill I had was necessary to squeek by. And though I only had 1 reaction ability, I found it's obviousness above adequate.
It would be nice as someone above said, if there were sounds and animations that would portray it .. but that is a lot of work for something that is already functional if not ideal for everyone.
ok so ive been reading through this and trying to understand something.
how do you know when your cooldowns are up?
you have to watch your bars anyway. so why does the indicator need to be any different than what is there?
Because some people are spoiled with UIs, that basically are playing the game for you. Watching an usual UI bar seems to be to much of a task for them. An UI needs to be scale and moveable plus minimalistic but thats about it, no need for easymode stuff.
I find it humerous that MMO users have had it beat into them that a poor UI scheme w/ poor visual indicators is an acceptable state of being. Much in the same way they've submitted to the idea that terrible AI is also an acceptable state.
How would you feel about an FPS game that didn't have a target reticle or a bullet count indicator? How about a RTS game w/out any indication of resource stockpiles? I mean, you don't really -need- those things right? Damn spoiled gamers, thinking the game should be about actual gameplay mechanics and not UI elements..
I think the truth of it is, WoW did it so it's not cool. If WoW does anything it's automatically a god damn terrible thing and represents everything that is wrong w/ MMO games today. Of course this completely ignores that many of the changes are wildly popular with the majority of people who come into contact with them. That seems to be the theme around here.
A new MMO wants to attract as many new players right off the bat as possible. To just say well maybe couple months down the road it will be added is not the point. If they want to appeal to a broader group of people little things like this have no reason to not be in the game at launch.
They have because things like this are made for the lazy crowd. Give them one option they are going to cry for more exactly what ruined Rift for many gamers. Trion made it into WoW 2.0 instead of sticking to their own goals.
convienence features is not what caused rift to not be as successful as they hoped not by a long shot.. if anything its what got them many of there subscribers
I find it humerous that MMO users have had it beat into them that a poor UI scheme w/ poor visual indicators is an acceptable state of being. Much in the same way they've submitted to the idea that terrible AI is also an acceptable state.
How would you feel about an FPS game that didn't have a target reticle or a bullet count indicator? How about a RTS game w/out any indication of resource stockpiles? I mean, you don't really -need- those things right? Damn spoiled gamers, thinking the game should be about actual gameplay mechanics and not UI elements..
Please stop comparing an MMOG with FPS, RTS games MMOGs are different beast. Anyway:
People have been playing this games for years now and there is only 1 in words ONE game in which the UI is playing the game for you (Rift heading the same way fast). Please tell me whats the big deal with managing your cool downs?
If you arrange your UI the right way, there shouldn't especially in a time with Razer Nagas, logitech G - keyboards and whatnot. Aion did have the popups for chainskills and not for cooldowns, thats something I'm ok with.Please keep in mind that one easymode feature will only lead to crying for more (heavily macroing, dual specc, flying mounts and what not).
So would you please tell me whats so difficult about managing abilities with cooldowns like 3,5,10 and maybe 30 minutes?! I just don't see it its part of learning the game and as someone mentioned if people can't play without that sort of thing they might as well stick to the game, in which the UI is p laying the game for you.
Like it or not, Rift has been succesful and will continue to do so. It didn't turn out the way I wanted it to be but nonetheless it is succesful,, the rate at which they're adding content is amazing.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Comments
As stated its a point of perception, you apparently have a problem, just because you do, doesn't mean everyone does. You aren't the only player in the game.
Again, doesn't matter whether they do or not.. do you really think making it easier is going to somehow hurt me? I'm saying plainly, it is, how it is, people don't have issues with it as it stands now. If they make it easier, great, if they don't change it, well I guess we'll be hearing more whining about it.
Reactive Ability,
You must react to something, such as a parry, which is easily identifiable by the hotkey showing up. I enjoyed games that offered only a combat log to determine if you could throw a reactive ability, no glowing icon .. nothing. I've said it a few times before but all of these changes some of you folks are wanting will do nothing but further simplify this game. I ENJOY not having Mods, Macros, and big glowing " Click your Riposte ability now!" ques. When I win in pvp/pve its because I did everything right, not because I was prompted to use an ability.
It's not hard to pay attention, it's a game ...
No, what you have been digging to establish is that "good" players are OK with poor UI systems, and that bad players are not. And of course that *you* are a *good* player, which you try to squiggle in to almost every post you make.
This is completely disregarding the fact that several of the people in this thread complaining about this particular system have no issue adapting to it (even though it bad), but that the system should be improved.
This is all based on your personal perception of things. A "lifeless world" is another perception that people may or may not share with you, as with this "issue" here.
You have to understand, I've been playing many MMOs for quite a few years myself, I was in CBT for quite a long time, through all of that, these are very minor issues, if considered issues at all. They don't add much of anything other than aesthetic value, when contextual value is much more important at this stage in the games development.
A few months after launch, sure, perhaps we could see some indicators -- hopefully not macros -- and maybe an increase in NPC population, but again, as you can clearly tell from this thread, even those of you complaining about it, are still buying the game, you're still playing the game... these small issues don't stop population growth.
If they impact the game at all its only in very long-term instances.
Its not like I'm against the addition of this, where honestly, I just think its pointless to waste a resource on something that won't add any additional playability and reduces the necessity to pay attention to what you're doing. If it was added, it wouldn't phase me at all, but I'd rather them fix the UI and the Map rather then waste resources on functional features in this stage of development.
Obviously you do, otherwise you wouldn't care. Only someone with something to lose argues against a obvious improvement. Otherwise your contribution to this post would have been, "this is a good idea, it improves the game for new players and makes it more accessible". Obviously, it wasn't.
You think that this arcaic system gives you as edge as a *good* player, and thus you don't want to see it changed.
And in other news; water is wet.
I guess its devolved into that then, that a "good" player actually pays attention to their character and doesn't allow a status bar to run their characters abilities, while a "poor" player has an issue seeing whats on the field and whats happening on your skill bar. If thats how you want to signify the differences thats fine -- but it is a point of perception, some people have an issue, others apparently don't.
If that makes one player better than another... well its a video game... some players are just better than others. If having an on screen guide wave its arms when an ability is ready somehow closes the gap between the "good" and "bad" players, then I guess thats what will have to happen.
If those players had no issue "adapting" then it wouldn't be an issue.
A new MMO wants to attract as many new players right off the bat as possible. To just say well maybe couple months down the road it will be added is not the point. If they want to appeal to a broader group of people little things like this have no reason to not be in the game at launch.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
They have because things like this are made for the lazy crowd. Give them one option they are going to cry for more exactly what ruined Rift for many gamers. Trion made it into WoW 2.0 instead of sticking to their own goals.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
And some players believe that what makes one player better than another is not looking at a buff bar, but instead things like positioning, using the appropriate ability at the appropriate time, skill synergy, understanding of the other classes abilities, using environmental effects (los), reacting to the situation at hand properly, anticipation of your opponent... etc etc
You seem to think that fighting a poor UI scheme should factor into that equation, I think the UI should work w/ you to allow you to focus on the things I previously mentioned.
We'll have to agree to disagree, cause I personally think your opinion of proper game design sucks.
It’s about different things for different people. Not sure if you have read any of my posts but I am here talking about accessibility, not convenience.
Also no, that is not what I am saying. As I have said previously, and even in the very text you quoted, the effect such a change would have on the “skill disparity” between average players and players that are to be considered “pro” would be very minimal. Trivial even. What I am saying however is that it could potentially be beneficial for people with inherit disadvantages and disabilities. That’s different. That’s accessibility. No contradiction.
Exactly. Just because you don't have a problem, doesn't mean nobody does. You aren't the only player in the game.
Eh, of course they do, its called time and cost, not to mention the ability to actually implement and test these changes.
Everything is functional and polished extremely well... and the fact is, if this was in any way a cause for major concern, they would have done something about it based on the feedback we've given them through YEARS of testing.
But it wasn't because -- in the scope of important things to do -- this was last on the list. Aesthetic implementation is the least of their worries, its more important to have a large swath of content.
I mean honestly would you rather have them create and polish 3 warzones - or would you rather them have calculated and imlpemented seasons and a day and night cycle?
One adds nothing but an aesthetic value.. the other adds lasting content. Likewise as I stated previously, would you rather have something like a flashing signal where they already have a status bar and icon (a reactive indicator) or would you rather them revamp the map - adding resizability and double point functionality?
One is completely aesthetic, the others increase longevity and functionality. When you're getting a game out the door and polishing it up for launch, trimming the fat is important, and hence, why some of this isn't even bothered with at that stage.
Thats not to say it won't be implemented, but people aren't cancelling preorders or subscriptions over reactive indicators or day and night cycles, or even "lifeless worlds". They will however, cancel over a lack of content, or minimal to no functionality...
Then don't play any of the games I create
Exactly! That doesn't mean that I'm right, or they are right, its a matter of perception. BioWare will listen to the feedback, if they decide to add it, great, if not, then they won't. people playing will have to deal either way.
Complaining on this forum isn't exactly going to accomplish anything. Getting angry at me because I disagree with the need for it right now won't change the fact that its unlikely a feature like this will be available on launch.
Woah, quite the stirr that little button or the lack of it is weaving.
Everyone should remember that BW has confirmed addons or the support for addons at least shortly after launch, so it will very soon become irrelevant if reactive button in middle of the screen is added or not since there will be a dozen of addons for that function soon.
ok so ive been reading through this and trying to understand something.
how do you know when your cooldowns are up?
you have to watch your bars anyway. so why does the indicator need to be any different than what is there?
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
I don't think I've fully and adequetely clarified my view. Let me start over:
There is a simple premise that is accepted by many players and most game developers: that the less the player is required to look at sideline UI elemets, and the more they are allowed to watch (and gleam important information from) the actual battlefield/gamespace, the better.
Given the above premise, the visual cues that signifiy when a reactive ability is available for use (particularly ones that can only be used after a block, dodge, parry, or the like) should come in a form that requires as little looking away from the actual battlefield and towards various sideline UI elements as possible. Things like the visual actions/animations of yourself, your enemies, and your allies, as well as things such as the sparkly particle effects that appear in the actual game world to highlight lootable corpses and quest items in many MMO's are all examples of cues that happen within the actual gamespace. Such cues should NOT (at least exclusively) come in the form of an icon at the bottom or side of your screen becoming slightly more colorful.
A few examples of how to accomplish this rather simple goal:
1. If an ability can only be activated after blocking an attack, make it known to players that they have succesfully blocked an attack and can thus now use their "Counter Slash" ability by way of clearly animating their character raising his shield and successfully deflecting an enemy's sword with an appropriate "sword being deflected by a shield" sound effect.
2. If the player has damage numbers that float above character's heads enabled (which is usually a good idea), have a line of text appear in the same manner as those numbers in clear, easy to read type, that says something along the lines of "Attack blocked successfully!" or merely "Blocked!"
3. Have the entire screen become noticably tinted when an ability becomes usable (for e.g., tint the screen red when "Bloody Berserker Rage" becomes available) .
4. Less ideally, have a popup icon that appears within/around the primary viewing space (typically near the middle of the screen).
(2, 3 and 4 should, of course, be optionally enabled or disabled)
There are plenty of other things a developer can do, of course (like potentially making the player's shield glow when a reactive shield ability is useable), but you get the idea.
Ultimately this is a rather minor issue, but it's one worth discussing, as any feature that goes against the premise stated above, no matter how minor an impact such a feature may ultimatley have, should be looked at critically.
Because some people are spoiled with UIs, that basically are playing the game for you. Watching an usual UI bar seems to be to much of a task for them. An UI needs to be scale and moveable plus minimalistic but thats about it, no need for easymode stuff.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
This. When the proc indicator lights and notices showed up in wow last year the worst raiders in our guild (going by dps for their classes) added between 15-20 percent relative to everyone else overnight. Why? Because the game told them the right way to play. They had been doing it wrong, and the game made it nearly impossible for them to do it wrong anymore. We had been trying to get them to use their procs before, but they simply weren't attentive enough, until they had lights and flashes installed.
Edit: Also, tanking in wow it was easy enough to see when I dodged or parried an attack through the animations, the same in SWTOR so I don't see why you wouldn't know it was ready to use simply from paying attention to what's going on.
maybe they arent using their cooldowns? I find that hard to believe though. There were a lot of situations where I was slightly below level and presented with a 3(silver) pack that was a little harrowing, and making use of every skill I had was necessary to squeek by. And though I only had 1 reaction ability, I found it's obviousness above adequate.
It would be nice as someone above said, if there were sounds and animations that would portray it .. but that is a lot of work for something that is already functional if not ideal for everyone.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
I find it humerous that MMO users have had it beat into them that a poor UI scheme w/ poor visual indicators is an acceptable state of being. Much in the same way they've submitted to the idea that terrible AI is also an acceptable state.
How would you feel about an FPS game that didn't have a target reticle or a bullet count indicator? How about a RTS game w/out any indication of resource stockpiles? I mean, you don't really -need- those things right? Damn spoiled gamers, thinking the game should be about actual gameplay mechanics and not UI elements..
I think the truth of it is, WoW did it so it's not cool. If WoW does anything it's automatically a god damn terrible thing and represents everything that is wrong w/ MMO games today. Of course this completely ignores that many of the changes are wildly popular with the majority of people who come into contact with them. That seems to be the theme around here.
convienence features is not what caused rift to not be as successful as they hoped not by a long shot.. if anything its what got them many of there subscribers
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
Please stop comparing an MMOG with FPS, RTS games MMOGs are different beast. Anyway:
People have been playing this games for years now and there is only 1 in words ONE game in which the UI is playing the game for you (Rift heading the same way fast). Please tell me whats the big deal with managing your cool downs?
If you arrange your UI the right way, there shouldn't especially in a time with Razer Nagas, logitech G - keyboards and whatnot. Aion did have the popups for chainskills and not for cooldowns, thats something I'm ok with.Please keep in mind that one easymode feature will only lead to crying for more (heavily macroing, dual specc, flying mounts and what not).
So would you please tell me whats so difficult about managing abilities with cooldowns like 3,5,10 and maybe 30 minutes?! I just don't see it its part of learning the game and as someone mentioned if people can't play without that sort of thing they might as well stick to the game, in which the UI is p laying the game for you.
Like it or not, Rift has been succesful and will continue to do so. It didn't turn out the way I wanted it to be but nonetheless it is succesful,, the rate at which they're adding content is amazing.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."