Originally posted by PukeBucket Straws, they're for grasping.
These are facts, not straws.
They're more facts than they are innovations.
As in, please look up the word INNOVATION before using it poorly.
Unless English is your second language, or that you admit personally that you're easily distracted by flashing lights. In either case, continue.
But if neither is true, you're a liar.
Beaverton, OR! Hey I work in Beaverton! I live in Portland though. Sorry, just saw a fellow Oregonian and had to say hi. Continue with the bickering n whatnot
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
that said people claim dynamic events in gw2 are innovative when rift beat them to it
Haven't we been through this? Rift has their own version of dynamic content. They do not have Dynamic Events. The systems are different in every way.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
I dont think people realize just how different companions are from the norm. i think people look at them like an EQ merc, like a free group member. They say it takes away part of the M from MMO. But companions dont let you solo more than any other game, the solo content is designed entirely around having them with you. Its a different take on soloing.
Problem is people expect mirracles over night. It's not like we discovered electricity and than have PCs 15 years later.
It takes time and inovations often come out in smaller increments. When each new MMO released will offer what everyone else did + something new, we will eventualy evolve MMOs into something completely new comparing to beginning. But because of the small steps it might not seem much at present.
Compared to the sea of other "low budget" MMOs offering not only nothing new but in many ways what it seems steps backward, SW:TOR actualy did a big step forward. Questing is definitely "next gen" and it's very easy to fall in love with it, not mentioning the polishness level on release which is downright disgusting for many games.
The only actual innovation in your list is fully voiced story-driven mmo. The rest either exist already or are minor improvements. Being able to warp to any spot instead of just one isn't innovative, it's convenient. By your standards you can pretty much call anything it does slightly better innovative. So the list is rubbish, no offense.
The one innovation is what drove me to buy the game anyway, and it's great at first. I really like the story line. It's just that when you start to see through the charade that you get disappointed. I'm still killing 20 frogs and collecting 15 wolf livers. The only thing different is that now I'm having someone explain to me why it's vital to the defense of the galaxy that I do so. Which is cool at first, but you quickly notice that nothing has really changed at all. The combat is identical to every other recent MMO, only with lightsabers and guns. Your decisions have no impact on the world whatsoever, people still laud you for being the hero that drove back the invaders, even though if you move 10 feet all the invaders are still there as they respawned. You're still being sent from questhub to questhub to kill more orcs, and you're still grinding through instances, moving out of the fire or away from the enemy during bossfights so you can collect your +2 Max Damage lightsaber.
This game has virtually no innovation. The story keeps you going for a while, and if you're really into it, great for you. But please don't spout nonsense like player housing or respawning on the spot as innovation. This is WoW in space with improvements all around and steps back on some spots.
Actualy as I'm thinking about it, the major SWTOR innovation is that it feels like a single player rpg - OK, KOTOR to be exact - with some MMO features thrown in.
SWTOR has received a lot of criticism for supposedly copying other MMOs. Well here are SWTOR MMO innovations that can't be found in the rest of the AAA MMO field:
1) Any already found binding location can be selected when using the 30 min cool down fast travel - opposed to the industry standard of making you pick a single location to be bound to. Hard to call such a minimalistic thing innovating. Some people like fast travel, others don't. GW2 will have unlimted fast travel to discovered locations btw.
2) Anyone can rez their allies! No need to be a healer (all other MMOs) or have a purple rez in your inventory (CoH) - and no, GW2 isn't out yet! True, more importingly though is that SWTOR moves a bit away from Holy Trinity by this and other things like their class designs. I would call it a Soft- Holy Trinity. Too bad they still use the "old" way of doing agro mechanics and they didn't really completely remove the need for a heavely healer oriented person in the group. GW2 goes further on this track with other agro mechanics and "no" Holy Trinity (Tank, Heal, Dps) but instead making every class able to adjust to the situation at hand... BUZZWORD = DYNAMIC
3) Permanently upgradeable gear - you can keep the same lightsaber all game if you like, just upgrade it's parts. Same goes for all types of weapons and armor. I saw Aion having this first, and I'm sure they weren't the first ones to come up with this idea. Never the less... it's good they have it too. And GW2 will have too.
4) Fully voiced with excellent voice acting! True mainly yes. The voice acting is great and it is fully voiced. However there are also these Alien languages (true to the SW world ofc.) who are just generic ramblings of the same few lines over and over again (and you hear it repeating on some NPC's) and where you still have to read the english subtitles. But I gladly agree this is very good thing and indeed the good direction.
5) Decisions put you on the spot from a moral stand point. Do you kill the NPC or let them live? Don't tell me you haven't sat there for 10 or 15 seconds on occasion trying to decide an NPCs fate. True and at the sime time it's not the case in the field... because of the gear rewards you only get for going to the extreme Light or extreme Dark side... if you ever think about what action you should take it's normally just wondering which will give most points for your alignment to Light/Dark side. There's no incentive to really morally choose and staying neutral gets punished. I do give credit for the very sinister and dark sided humor in this game, it's hilarious. Again I would say it's a good addition to the genre, but not as "changing" really or as emotionally attached as some make it look like...
6) Decisions affect your character. Do bad things and your character will start to look evil over time. Your crew members will judge you too! True, which is rly good. However I don't think the "crew" / "companion" part is a good thing for MMO's. I could make a whole list about why it's just a thing to make annoyances of tradional MMOs less annoying (selling trash, boring crafting, unable to progress without a group bc you have a set class role, ...). On the other hand, companions also bring in a whole now array of issues and annoyances (why group with stranger if you have companions = anti social insentive, you see every class running around with same companion = you look like another clone which breaks immersion)
7) The coolest mounts you've ever seen! They are actually mechanical and don't revolve around fantasy beasts. Coolest... that's a subjective argument. From what I have seen they do look nice, but I think the animation on turning your mount around and such looks unrealistic somehow. I wonder how "cool mounts" is supposed to be something innovative as well.
8) Player housing in the form of an upgradeable space ship complete with space combat. Yes Lotro has housing but it's not nearly as cool and the rest of the AAA field does not! I'd almost allow STO in here but those "ship bridges" are pretty weak. True the ship on it's own is cool and has potential. But space combat is the most unimpressive thing they could have done with that concept... It's a single-player-pve-only-on-rail-shooting-minigame. That's what it is, nothing more... I won't even start on what it could have been...
9) 17 planets so far - who knows how many they will have? Havent seen most of the planets, I'm leveling up 3 characters simultaniously, but true I heard several of them really are huge.
10) Crafting/Professions are beneath you - order your subordinates to do it for you! That's just a way of something that could be fun (but isn't in todays MMO's), making unneeded but still have it in the game... Instead of keeping a boring form of crafting in the game, and give it to your companions so it doesn't waste your time, they could have completely redone it. It is better this way with companions than without, but did you ever think that crafting can actually be fun if done another way? Look at games like MineCraft and how fun it is to discover recipes from figureing out logical clues. Even if they eventually appear on the internet it's still a fun way to do crafting. GW2 will bring it into MMO's with other improvements. I'm looking forward to see more of that...
11) Engaging story which is told to you and experienced in cinematic form. It's same as your argument #4 actually. It's true and it's good. I havn't seen the whole story yet but I can't wait to get home and continue mine. Me and my friend are playing everything together on one of our characters (I'm Sith Warrior, he is a Sith Inquisitor) and since we join each other everytime on our story missions we see now both storries at once, they are rly worth it.
12) Smoothest launch in MMO history. True, I experienced many launches (most from early access, SWTOR only from launchdate on) and I was there the hour the servers were supposed to open. Minor issues at first with an hour delay but since 0 minutes in queue. Best launch ever experienced, no lag or over population in starter zones either. Big gratz on that one, honestly.
13) If you die in the main game world, you can rez on the spot - no more ghost runs! Only punishment is a short timer and a durability hit. It's a good thing, a good direction but not that revolutionary really. In the end it's just a minor death penalty. Guild Wars 2 will have "downed", "drowned" & "defeated" states which would take me too long to explain here. They are added mechanics to the MMO genre that crosses the transition between being "fully alive and well... even if you only have 1% health left" and being "dead or defeated". They make for important tactical choices in PvP as well.
I could go on but I have to get back in game and make sure Vette is doing as I asked. She better be if she doesn't want another shock!
I'll add more when I have more time. Please contribute innovations you have experienced in SWTOR!
I hope you read my arguments here. I do love SW:ToR and it indeed moves the game forward in the good direction. However I see it as the best of what traditional MMO's of the WoW era can, could, and will ever have become. GW2 will be the new generation of MMO games. Both games were needed for the MMO genre, and if you can't wait for GW2 to come out I very much advice you to play SW:ToR until then and see what it's like because I find it a fun game.
The main difference between SWTOR & GW2 is how they fix the common MMO issues. SWTOR fixes them with additions to the traditional design. GW2 fixes them by changing the core design.
In the end, I convinced that GW2's changes (because of it's aproach to changing the core design) will have much bigger effect on the genre and will be the big winner in 2012. However those are my 2 cents and though I'm damn well informed not everyone shares the same opinion. We will known more when GW2 releases. Again, there's no shame in enjoying SW:ToR it's a good game and I would say it's the best MMO currently out there.
If you think that somehow my points are valid and you want to see my critical view on SW:ToR (with some GW2 comparisons in between) then you can follow my Twitter where I post my thoughts the second they cross my mind. http://twitter.com/#!/mmorpg_Ethos
The only actual innovation in your list is fully voiced story-driven mmo. The rest either exist already or are minor improvements.
Well I was feeling like that when they released DA after the ages of development and the promises that it will be an innovative CRPG - yet it turned out to be pretty standard stuff.
However then I was thinking about it and the sad truth is that they need to make money. So they can't risk to be very innovative since the people might not buy it.
Back to MMOs - that's why all of the the new MMOs suffer from YAWOW (Yet Another WOW) syndrome. People pay for WOW and the newly developed games just want a share. Nobody dares to do something really new - but for a sound reason.
Originally posted by IsometrixI'm still killing 20 frogs and collecting 15 wolf livers.
Just want to ask you how you cope our real world. You know, brushing teeth everyday, tieing up shoelaces, using the same front door, meeting same people, talking about same stuff, and many many more actions you repeat through your life, day after day after day.
Or have you ever considered MMORPGs are maybe not for you?
Here's also a quote of myself, cos I don't feel like repeating.
Originally posted by StarI
Problem is people expect mirracles over night. It's not like we discovered electricity and than have PCs 15 years later.
It takes time and inovations often come out in smaller increments. When each new MMO released will offer what everyone else did + something new, we will eventualy evolve MMOs into something completely new comparing to beginning. But because of the small steps it might not seem much at present.
Compared to the sea of other "low budget" MMOs offering not only nothing new but in many ways what it seems steps backward, SW:TOR actualy did a big step forward. Questing is definitely "next gen" and it's very easy to fall in love with it, not mentioning the polishness level on release which is downright disgusting for many games.
I rarely condescend someone for their POV, but this list is seriously misinformation. Other then the voice acting and possibly the crew doing crafting i've seen all those things in other mmos, and i've played nowhere near the same number of mmo's most senior members here have.
There are 2 innovations in the OP's list, imho, and they are significant:
a fully-voiced, engaging storyline with content tailored closely to a particular class that takes a player from L1 to L50. Many previous MMO's had some elements of this feature, but none combined them all into a coherent package which produces a sum that is greater than it's parts.
Companions, and their function in the game. Again, some elements of this feature have been seen before, but never all together in 1 game and in such depth. Your companion is closely interwoven into your game journey, it's not just a "pet" that you summon when you're too lazy to fight properly.
As for the other points in the list, as many previous posters have pointed out, we've seen all that before. Some of it has been improved slightly, some of it is actually a step backwards. As to which is which, that's pretty much subjective opinion.
A smooth launch is not an "innovation", because it has nothing to do with gameplay, and will be largely forgotten in 2 weeks' time. The act of launching a game is a well-known and understood event in MMO history. The fact that TOR actually succeeded in doing it right is commendable, but not innovative.
Fully voiced story lines for the whole game in an MMO
Group conversations
Crew skills
Those I'd go with, everything else, been done before and often better. I'm having a blast in game but there are things that are sub par for the genre and 'innovations' that are contrary to having a great game experience - dark/light side points being particularly annoying, not being able to play your character as you want, you either need to stick to one side or lock yourself out of gear, it's not a great system at all, I'm finding myself more concerned with the companion/gear outcomes than getting in to my character, I don't want to have spend ages grinding points or spend loads buying affection. It definitely needs more work.
10) Crafting/Professions are beneath you - order your subordinates to do it for you!
so innovation to you is having a part of that game that plays itself? so whats next? you can set your toon/pet to do quests for you while your at work? perhaps set your toon/pet to harvest for you while your in the shower?
this is by far one of the worst fucking ideas to ever make it into a MMO. its right up there with "instant adventures"
From somebody who at the beginning of the year almost went for dcuo being a wow killer, I would be more cautious in stating that much about a game that just released a few days ago.
SWTOR has received a lot of criticism for supposedly copying other MMOs. Well here are SWTOR MMO innovations that can't be found in the rest of the AAA MMO field:
1) Any already found binding location can be selected when using the 30 min cool down fast travel - opposed to the industry standard of making you pick a single location to be bound to.
I think DCUO already has something like that in the warping to HQs
2) Anyone can rez their allies! No need to be a healer (all other MMOs) or have a purple rez in your inventory (CoH) - and no, GW2 isn't out yet!
Again, dcuo you click on the character defeated to put it back on action, that qualifies as rez
3) Permanently upgradeable gear - you can keep the same lightsaber all game if you like, just upgrade it's parts. Same goes for all types of weapons and armor.
It would be arguable that by that means separating gear looks from stats which is already done in superhero mmos.
4) Fully voiced with excellent voice acting!
Again I am not sure in which extend but if DCUO is not fully voice over is pretty close.
5) Decisions put you on the spot from a moral stand point. Do you kill the NPC or let them live? Don't tell me you haven't sat there for 10 or 15 seconds on occasion trying to decide an NPCs fate.
CoX going rogue, even could determine switching sides
6) Decisions affect your character. Do bad things and your character will start to look evil over time. Your crew members will judge you too!
One you might be right
7) The coolest mounts you've ever seen! They are actually mechanical and don't revolve around fantasy beasts.
Subjective at bests, even f2p games has pretty awesome mounts which is a matter of taste.
8) Player housing in the form of an upgradeable space ship complete with space combat. Yes Lotro has housing but it's not nearly as cool and the rest of the AAA field does not! I'd almost allow STO in here but those "ship bridges" are pretty weak.
Another one you might be right but this is parallel to CoH SG bases just for 1 player (which some players did)
9) 17 planets so far - who knows how many they will have?
I think it would come down to how big is the total world, hardly innovative
10) Crafting/Professions are beneath you - order your subordinates to do it for you!
Grand Fantasia and other asian f2p has companions that do the crafting part.
11) Engaging story which is told to you and experienced in cinematic form.
Engaging is subjective again, the cinematic form is arguable not so new, it would depend on the extend of it.
12) Smoothest launch in MMO history.
No opinion here, you might be right since they did the staggering thing.
13) If you die in the main game world, you can rez on the spot - no more ghost runs! Only punishment is a short timer and a durability hit.
So in the next innovation, there will be no death penalty
I could go on but I have to get back in game and make sure Vette is doing as I asked. She better be if she doesn't want another shock!
I'll add more when I have more time. Please contribute innovations you have experienced in SWTOR!
Why is it everything you listed as a positive I see as removing the M from MMO? Crew skills turns crafting into a lobby based game. Story is all about you with noone else helping and once you get to 50 it ends. It does not continue it just ends and the dailies start.
that sounds just like this other game i played for 7 mouths. cant remember the name off hand.. was it Cracks? doesent sound right. could have been Tears. all i know it that game to became a seires of daily quests after daily quests with nothing else to do but sit in the main city and que up for instance/pvp till your guilds time to raid. what ARE mmos coming to these day.
Look there shouldn't be any arguments after this(even though there will be)
Original stuff star wars did...
Legacy System(I could be wrong)
Group story telling
Huttball
All those planet NAMES which is zones
Fully Voice Gameplay(which has drawbacks.)
True innovations...
Companions
No auto attack because they did it better than AOC IMO just still didn't put [top] effort into animations or anything that would make combat itself an innovation.
What's been missed- SWTOR hasn't made a PB&J Sandwich, what they did was spice up the peanut butter and left the jelly plain with no bread covering both, but in fact people like nice peanut butter by itself, with plain jelly, and nno bread lol.
Translation-In SWTOR you will in one point in your life weather it be years from now, realize that they spent majority and I mean MAJORITY of their time into their peanut better aka the story and over all VO, what they didn't spend equal time in was combat,animations, I'm sorry but if you do a dynamic animation without it being an AOE skill it should still hit multiple enemies I'm sorry but it's true. A way to really involve friends, having the STARTER areas not be linear to give others a way of realizing it's more open or could be more open after wards.
A quest system were you see the shit literally happen as been told, it could even be the same kill x type quests(which there are many) and less complaints would appear because some people realized that after all that talking they ended up doing a kill X quest, and if you really pay attention which I wouldn't have without playing another game in alpha is that the mobs stand there not doing what they are claimed to be doing.
No need to continue, now I hope people just have fun and stop looking for innovations wether you claim it's original or claim it's something that's combining and improved or improved by it self. It's a good current gen mmorpg, not my type but long as your having fun then hey do you.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
10) Crafting/Professions are beneath you - order your subordinates to do it for you!
so innovation to you is having a part of that game that plays itself? so whats next? you can set your toon/pet to do quests for you while your at work? perhaps set your toon/pet to harvest for you while your in the shower?
this is by far one of the worst fucking ideas to ever make it into a MMO. its right up there with "instant adventures"
Its actually *far* more work than WoW/Rift crafting. It hardly plays itself.
Originally posted by PukeBucket Straws, they're for grasping.
These are facts, not straws.
They're more facts than they are innovations.
As in, please look up the word INNOVATION before using it poorly.
Unless English is your second language, or that you admit personally that you're easily distracted by flashing lights. In either case, continue.
But if neither is true, you're a liar.
Beaverton, OR! Hey I work in Beaverton! I live in Portland though. Sorry, just saw a fellow Oregonian and had to say hi. Continue with the bickering n whatnot
LoL I live in Beaverton and work in Portland!
Wonder if we get stuck at the tunnel ramps at the same time?
To contribute to the topic at hand:
SWTOR brings nothing new to the table.
"They innovate by.. Um.. Allowing you to buy it from Origin. Origin didn't have mmos before so that's an innovation right?"
Fuck no.
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
The crafting doesn't "play itself." maybe you should try it out before making judgements. The crafting system is more in depth than any themepark mmo I've ever played.
Once you understand how it works, it is actually really cool.
Basically all that the companions doing It amounts to is that you can craft anywhere. You still have to do all sorts of stuff.
You honestly have no idea how deep and involved it is.
The crafting doesn't "play itself." maybe you should try it out before making judgements. The crafting system is more in depth than any themepark mmo I've ever played.
Once you understand how it works, it is actually really cool.
Basically all that the companions doing
It amounts to is that you can craft anywhere. You still have to do all sorts of stuff.
You honestly have no idea how deep and involved it is.
This, crafting in other games is ABSOLUTELY STUPID!
This game makes me want to craft, I hate crafting more than anything yet I can't stop doin it in SWTOR.
The fact that if I work at it I can keep myself in purple gear all through the leveling experience makes it really worth it and fun, I love how crafters can DE their own gear to get materials back and maybe discover new designs.
This is simply a brilliant crafting system, the people at bioware really outdid themselves.
13) If you die in the main game world, you can rez on the spot - no more ghost runs! Only punishment is a short timer and a durability hit.
So in the next innovation, there will be no death penalty
interesting rather than discuss it you insult it.
There is a 10 minute timer on resing yourself where you are, and your party cannot be in combat, and you must be in a place where it is allowed.
Yeah you are right clearly this is just making it soooo casual friendly and care bear death penalty doesnt' exsist, even though you still lose durability, and you must spend gold to repair it.
In other words, no, its not dumbing anything down, you are being ridiculous.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
The crafting doesn't "play itself." maybe you should try it out before making judgements. The crafting system is more in depth than any themepark mmo I've ever played.
Once you understand how it works, it is actually really cool.
Basically all that the companions doing
It amounts to is that you can craft anywhere. You still have to do all sorts of stuff.
You honestly have no idea how deep and involved it is.
This, crafting in other games is ABSOLUTELY STUPID!
This game makes me want to craft, I hate crafting more than anything yet I can't stop doin it in SWTOR.
The fact that if I work at it I can keep myself in purple gear all through the leveling experience makes it really worth it and fun, I love how crafters can DE their own gear to get materials back and maybe discover new designs.
This is simply a brilliant crafting system, the people at bioware really outdid themselves.
Just a guess here but you two missed out on Vanguard? What with its terrible launch it seems like most mmo gamers missed VG. Anyway, just for the record, it's crafting was not stupid.
Comments
Beaverton, OR! Hey I work in Beaverton!
I live in Portland though. Sorry, just saw a fellow Oregonian and had to say hi. Continue with the bickering n whatnot 
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
Haven't we been through this? Rift has their own version of dynamic content. They do not have Dynamic Events. The systems are different in every way.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
I dont think people realize just how different companions are from the norm. i think people look at them like an EQ merc, like a free group member. They say it takes away part of the M from MMO. But companions dont let you solo more than any other game, the solo content is designed entirely around having them with you. Its a different take on soloing.
Problem is people expect mirracles over night. It's not like we discovered electricity and than have PCs 15 years later.
It takes time and inovations often come out in smaller increments. When each new MMO released will offer what everyone else did + something new, we will eventualy evolve MMOs into something completely new comparing to beginning. But because of the small steps it might not seem much at present.
Compared to the sea of other "low budget" MMOs offering not only nothing new but in many ways what it seems steps backward, SW:TOR actualy did a big step forward. Questing is definitely "next gen" and it's very easy to fall in love with it, not mentioning the polishness level on release which is downright disgusting for many games.
The only actual innovation in your list is fully voiced story-driven mmo. The rest either exist already or are minor improvements. Being able to warp to any spot instead of just one isn't innovative, it's convenient. By your standards you can pretty much call anything it does slightly better innovative. So the list is rubbish, no offense.
The one innovation is what drove me to buy the game anyway, and it's great at first. I really like the story line. It's just that when you start to see through the charade that you get disappointed. I'm still killing 20 frogs and collecting 15 wolf livers. The only thing different is that now I'm having someone explain to me why it's vital to the defense of the galaxy that I do so. Which is cool at first, but you quickly notice that nothing has really changed at all. The combat is identical to every other recent MMO, only with lightsabers and guns. Your decisions have no impact on the world whatsoever, people still laud you for being the hero that drove back the invaders, even though if you move 10 feet all the invaders are still there as they respawned. You're still being sent from questhub to questhub to kill more orcs, and you're still grinding through instances, moving out of the fire or away from the enemy during bossfights so you can collect your +2 Max Damage lightsaber.
This game has virtually no innovation. The story keeps you going for a while, and if you're really into it, great for you. But please don't spout nonsense like player housing or respawning on the spot as innovation. This is WoW in space with improvements all around and steps back on some spots.
Actualy as I'm thinking about it, the major SWTOR innovation is that it feels like a single player rpg - OK, KOTOR to be exact - with some MMO features thrown in.
I hope you read my arguments here. I do love SW:ToR and it indeed moves the game forward in the good direction. However I see it as the best of what traditional MMO's of the WoW era can, could, and will ever have become. GW2 will be the new generation of MMO games. Both games were needed for the MMO genre, and if you can't wait for GW2 to come out I very much advice you to play SW:ToR until then and see what it's like because I find it a fun game.
The main difference between SWTOR & GW2 is how they fix the common MMO issues. SWTOR fixes them with additions to the traditional design. GW2 fixes them by changing the core design.
In the end, I convinced that GW2's changes (because of it's aproach to changing the core design) will have much bigger effect on the genre and will be the big winner in 2012. However those are my 2 cents and though I'm damn well informed not everyone shares the same opinion. We will known more when GW2 releases. Again, there's no shame in enjoying SW:ToR it's a good game and I would say it's the best MMO currently out there.
If you think that somehow my points are valid and you want to see my critical view on SW:ToR (with some GW2 comparisons in between) then you can follow my Twitter where I post my thoughts the second they cross my mind. http://twitter.com/#!/mmorpg_Ethos
Well I was feeling like that when they released DA after the ages of development and the promises that it will be an innovative CRPG - yet it turned out to be pretty standard stuff.
However then I was thinking about it and the sad truth is that they need to make money. So they can't risk to be very innovative since the people might not buy it.
Back to MMOs - that's why all of the the new MMOs suffer from YAWOW (Yet Another WOW) syndrome. People pay for WOW and the newly developed games just want a share. Nobody dares to do something really new - but for a sound reason.
Just want to ask you how you cope our real world. You know, brushing teeth everyday, tieing up shoelaces, using the same front door, meeting same people, talking about same stuff, and many many more actions you repeat through your life, day after day after day.
Or have you ever considered MMORPGs are maybe not for you?
Here's also a quote of myself, cos I don't feel like repeating.
I rarely condescend someone for their POV, but this list is seriously misinformation. Other then the voice acting and possibly the crew doing crafting i've seen all those things in other mmos, and i've played nowhere near the same number of mmo's most senior members here have.
There are 2 innovations in the OP's list, imho, and they are significant:
a fully-voiced, engaging storyline with content tailored closely to a particular class that takes a player from L1 to L50. Many previous MMO's had some elements of this feature, but none combined them all into a coherent package which produces a sum that is greater than it's parts.
Companions, and their function in the game. Again, some elements of this feature have been seen before, but never all together in 1 game and in such depth. Your companion is closely interwoven into your game journey, it's not just a "pet" that you summon when you're too lazy to fight properly.
As for the other points in the list, as many previous posters have pointed out, we've seen all that before. Some of it has been improved slightly, some of it is actually a step backwards. As to which is which, that's pretty much subjective opinion.
A smooth launch is not an "innovation", because it has nothing to do with gameplay, and will be largely forgotten in 2 weeks' time. The act of launching a game is a well-known and understood event in MMO history. The fact that TOR actually succeeded in doing it right is commendable, but not innovative.
Innovations:
Fully voiced story lines for the whole game in an MMO
Group conversations
Crew skills
Those I'd go with, everything else, been done before and often better. I'm having a blast in game but there are things that are sub par for the genre and 'innovations' that are contrary to having a great game experience - dark/light side points being particularly annoying, not being able to play your character as you want, you either need to stick to one side or lock yourself out of gear, it's not a great system at all, I'm finding myself more concerned with the companion/gear outcomes than getting in to my character, I don't want to have spend ages grinding points or spend loads buying affection. It definitely needs more work.
Why do people feel compeled to write about things when they obviously know nothing about them?...
Stop saying something is innovative if you haven't played other MMOS.. please.
..Cake..
so innovation to you is having a part of that game that plays itself? so whats next? you can set your toon/pet to do quests for you while your at work? perhaps set your toon/pet to harvest for you while your in the shower?
this is by far one of the worst fucking ideas to ever make it into a MMO. its right up there with "instant adventures"
that sounds just like this other game i played for 7 mouths. cant remember the name off hand.. was it Cracks? doesent sound right. could have been Tears. all i know it that game to became a seires of daily quests after daily quests with nothing else to do but sit in the main city and que up for instance/pvp till your guilds time to raid. what ARE mmos coming to these day.
Yeah, I vote this as a definite troll thread.
Look there shouldn't be any arguments after this(even though there will be)
Original stuff star wars did...
Legacy System(I could be wrong)
Group story telling
Huttball
All those planet NAMES which is zones
Fully Voice Gameplay(which has drawbacks.)
True innovations...
Companions
No auto attack because they did it better than AOC IMO just still didn't put [top] effort into animations or anything that would make combat itself an innovation.
What's been missed- SWTOR hasn't made a PB&J Sandwich, what they did was spice up the peanut butter and left the jelly plain with no bread covering both, but in fact people like nice peanut butter by itself, with plain jelly, and nno bread lol.
Translation-In SWTOR you will in one point in your life weather it be years from now, realize that they spent majority and I mean MAJORITY of their time into their peanut better aka the story and over all VO, what they didn't spend equal time in was combat,animations, I'm sorry but if you do a dynamic animation without it being an AOE skill it should still hit multiple enemies I'm sorry but it's true. A way to really involve friends, having the STARTER areas not be linear to give others a way of realizing it's more open or could be more open after wards.
A quest system were you see the shit literally happen as been told, it could even be the same kill x type quests(which there are many) and less complaints would appear because some people realized that after all that talking they ended up doing a kill X quest, and if you really pay attention which I wouldn't have without playing another game in alpha is that the mobs stand there not doing what they are claimed to be doing.
No need to continue, now I hope people just have fun and stop looking for innovations wether you claim it's original or claim it's something that's combining and improved or improved by it self. It's a good current gen mmorpg, not my type but long as your having fun then hey do you.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Its actually *far* more work than WoW/Rift crafting. It hardly plays itself.
LoL I live in Beaverton and work in Portland!
Wonder if we get stuck at the tunnel ramps at the same time?
To contribute to the topic at hand:
SWTOR brings nothing new to the table.
"They innovate by.. Um.. Allowing you to buy it from Origin. Origin didn't have mmos before so that's an innovation right?"
Fuck no.
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
The crafting doesn't "play itself." maybe you should try it out before making judgements. The crafting system is more in depth than any themepark mmo I've ever played.
Once you understand how it works, it is actually really cool.
Basically all that the companions doing
It amounts to is that you can craft anywhere. You still have to do all sorts of stuff.
You honestly have no idea how deep and involved it is.
Shadow's Hand Guild
Open recruitment for
The Secret World - Dragons
Planetside 2 - Terran Republic
Tera - Dragonfall Server
http://www.shadowshand.com
This, crafting in other games is ABSOLUTELY STUPID!
This game makes me want to craft, I hate crafting more than anything yet I can't stop doin it in SWTOR.
The fact that if I work at it I can keep myself in purple gear all through the leveling experience makes it really worth it and fun, I love how crafters can DE their own gear to get materials back and maybe discover new designs.
This is simply a brilliant crafting system, the people at bioware really outdid themselves.
interesting rather than discuss it you insult it.
There is a 10 minute timer on resing yourself where you are, and your party cannot be in combat, and you must be in a place where it is allowed.
Yeah you are right clearly this is just making it soooo casual friendly and care bear death penalty doesnt' exsist, even though you still lose durability, and you must spend gold to repair it.
In other words, no, its not dumbing anything down, you are being ridiculous.
Grasping at strawmen................
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Just a guess here but you two missed out on Vanguard? What with its terrible launch it seems like most mmo gamers missed VG. Anyway, just for the record, it's crafting was not stupid.