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Why are so many people disappointed with a game that was designed well?
AutemOx
Member Posts: 1,704
When TOR was released, Raph Koster wrote on his blog:
http://www.raphkoster.com/2011/12/16/good-design-bad-design-great-design/
It is also quoted below. The poem was not meant to be a commentary on TOR, but it may as well be, because it describes well the state that MMO's have been in lately.
IMO, it started in 2002, the ambitious project Middle Earth Online was cancelled and replaced by streamlined LOTRO. In 2003, WoW was released and was a success beyond imagination despite not having (and having less) new features compared to past games like EQ. In 2004, SWG changed its core combat and class system to better match that of the mainstream.
What we have seen during those years and since then is a shift from great design to good design, and TOR is another sad reminder of that, which is why so many people are sickened by it despite it being a 'good' game.
Good design is familiar.
Bad design is boring.
Great design is exciting.
Good design embraces human nature.
Bad design exploits human nature.
Great design is humane and humanistic.
Good design guides.
Bad design controls.
Great design invites.
Good design drives habit.
Bad design drives frustration.
Great design drives passion.
Good design teaches.
Bad design lectures.
Great design has you teach yourself.
Good design is invisible.
Bad design calls attention to itself.
Great design calls attention to what you can do.
Play as your fav retro characters: cnd-online.net. My site: www.lysle.net. Blog: creatingaworld.blogspot.com.
Comments
There's no time for great design. MMOs are lucky to get to the "good" stage by launch and try to morph into "great" via patches. That's because this market (publishers, stock holders and impatient consumers) rushes products out the door in an effort to capture some of WoW's sub base. They want the kind of revenue WoW has generated too, but they don't "get it".
SWTOR has a good foundation. Is it a well made game - some would argue with you on that. It is missing many functions and features we are accustomed to now and find in even browser based games like custom UI. Eventually TOR will be a game worth playing. As for me I am waiting. When they fix the things I am concerned with then I might give it a shot. Depends on many factors...like if ArcheAge comes to the US. If that game comes to the US I'll be playing it.
To be honest, knowing the huge pricetag made me more nitpicky about things like clipping than I would otherwise have been.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
It's an average game, there isnt anything in the gameplay mechanics that screams THIS IS TOR!
The only thing you can say like that is in the story presentation.... but that is one small bit of the whole package. Outside of that the rest of the game is just simply average gameplay mechanics.
WoW Sidequests
I'm not even sure who are the 'so many people'. A lot of the negative posts I read come from those who stated they have never played the game or will. I find it hard to take them seriously. I only recently caved and got in as I wasn't overly impressed while in beta but quite a few of my friends gave it a thumbs up and said I should try it again. So I did and I have to admit I am enjoying it more than I expected. It actually made me enjoy and care about my character. That may not mean much to some but as an rper it meant quite a bit to me. Plus I am enjoying being a smuggler/gunslinger and sitting in the middle of blaster fire.
So to each his own. You can not please everyone. No game will. A game can come out and be this mysterious next-gen game folks clamor for and you know what? There will be a group that talk that game too. It never ends. It's one repetitive cycle. So all I can say is I hope others find what they are looking for but the foundations of ToR have proven enough to gain my interest in gaming where so many have failed these past few years.
Are you serious? That's the small part?
As far as Ralph Koster is concerned, SWG was a half-finished game on release. By his own criteria, it was a failure. Who's the next guru you got lined up?
Oh, and this is laughable:
"Good design doesn’t fail.
Bad design fails a lot.
Great design fails even more."
Yep, SWG was certainly Great.
I suppose that different people are disappointed for different reasons. I guess I'm not especially disappointed, as it is what I expected it to be, but I can explain why I'm not interested.
If a game is mostly about combat, then the combat had better be good. If the combat is no good, then the game is no good. Voiceovers, companions, dialogue options, and a lot of other such things are really just tinkering around the edges, and can't save a predominantly combat game with poor combat. Polish only matters if the underlying game mechanics are good.
As best as I can tell, Bioware didn't even put any real effort into coming up with a good combat system. If they did, then there's mysteriously no one talking about it. If commentary mentions combat at all, it's mostly to mention in passing that it's the same old generic WoW-clone combat, and then move on to talking about less important stuff.
Now, that's forgivable in a game that isn't really about combat. If a game has you spend most of your time do other stuff, and maybe fight a battle occasionally, then it's okay if the combat isn't good. But SWTOR is not that game; few MMORPGs are.
They are dissapointed because it wasn't designed FOR THEM. They are mad because they wanted a sandbox, or wanted an immense space exploration system, whatever. {mod edit}
If you gave me the best game ever and stuffed it full of voice overs, companions and other elements that are (in my opinion) best left to SP games, it would kill the game for me. When mmorpgs need heavy instancing and phasing of overland worlds in order to deliver a more personal touch, it kills it for me. I played the game in beta and very quickly realized I could never play the game after launch.
I am not, however, under any delusion that others share my thoughts though, and so you wont find me here bashing the game. I rated it, based on my own experience with it, and that's all I can do.
I love SW, I am a huge MMORPG fan and I love many aspects of it such as sand boxes as well as themeparks. I can appreciate games like Darkfall and UO at the same time I appreciate games like WoW and Rift. There's things I love and thiings I dislike about all titles out there. TOR just happens to focus heavily on the things that I dislike, and at it's core it creates a very underwhelming experience for me.
Unfortunately, I can't even set my sights on TOR for the future, as it's the core of tha game that annoys me so much. It may change and shift into a better experience for a lot of folks, but for me it would take a total reworking of the main mechanics... the heavily story driven experience that involves VO's and companions and what have you. I love that stuff in my SP games, but I like it left there. Since I have no self entitlement issues, I don't want or expect Bio to change the game for me
I don't feel wronged in any way by Bioware, they were clear about what they were delivering. I am not angry (in fact I am very thankful that they gave me the chance to beta test the game, provide some input and save myself some cash), and I do not wish the game any hardships, nor the devs, nor the players. We're all here as gamers, we love to game, but like movies and books there's so many tastes and preferences that I think we sometimes lose sight that it's ok for everyone to have a difference of opinion.
I also have plenty of mmorpgs that I absolutely love playing, and so I'm not bored atm which is why I'm not hanging out here on TOR forums all day. But I do like to keep up with ALL mmorpgs, and so I do visit often enough to see how things are going for my fellow gamers.
When it comes to presentation, it matters, but the small things matter in summing up presentation. And I was surprised at how many small things I thought could and should have been done better with that budget.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
While I assume you mean "small things" like Guild features, auction house, LFG tools and bugs, sure they could have been done better. But those are in no way game breaking and are easy enough fixed or implemented in upcoming patches.
This game still has way more polish than other MMOs on launch date.
Regarding the budget, which unpublished rumor are you referring to: 80 million, 150 million, 300 million? What do you consider average or extravagant in today's terms? Come to think of it, how much was spent developing Rift, DCUO, or the upcoming GW2 in comparison?
Yes, you spend more time doing other things than in conversations.
For every minute of conversations there are 10 minutes of battle. The only thing you spent less time on than in conversations is sending your companions out to do stuff.
WoW Sidequests
This game isnt about the combat, This is where u get this whole thing wrong, This game is about the story and the choices your character make that affect his story . This game isnt about combat, Anyone beliveing that hasnt really played this game
Im sorry but in no way is this game about combat, Sure combat is part of it like any mmo, But this game is about the story first and foremost and if u dont understand that u havent played it.
Pretty much this. Sandboxers complaining that its not a sandbox, when it never pretended to be. What they fail to realise is that they are the minority. If everyone loved sandbox, the EVE, Darkfall, Mortal Online or another sandbox MMO would have the most subscribers worldwide, but they dont, that crown goes to WoW, where the mainstream lies.
To the above poster commenting about combat, its clear youve never played it. Combat is the most polished I have seen in a themepark MMO. I have played pretty much every MMO in the past 10 years and the only game I can think of with more interesting combat / classes is Vanguard, which was let down by the rest of the game being a buggy mess. Combat is the reason people are saying SWTOR is 'just fun'.... because it is.
Once you make it past level 30 the training wheels are off and youll need to utilise your crowd control and defensive abilities effectively to survive a pull. But most of the naysayers have never made it that far in the game, they got to level 10 in a beta weekend and decided to trash talk it instead.
So because this game is "about the story first" players are supposed to ignore all the time spend in combat? Which is a tremendously longer amount than they spend in the story.
WoW Sidequests
That's a good list OP. It's true, great games really make you teach yourself by making you interested [Tangential learning]. How many times playing DAO have I had to go to wikipedia and look up the termonology, and history on words like blight, harrow, and others after spending hours upon hours just reading lore achievements.
It was a slow, and incredibly enjoyable adventure.
So, you're telling me that you spend most of your time in the game following the storyline, and only occasionally go kill something? Really?
Suppose that I decided that I didn't like the combat and didn't want to do it. If I can't avoid being attacked entirely, then every time I end up in a battle, I'll invariably flee, and never kill anything. Furthermore, I'll never group with others who are killing things. How far could I get in the game? Think I could get to the level cap with lots of good gear, and have plenty of stuff to do? Think I could play through the whole storyline without ever killing anything? Think I'd find enough to do to avoid being incredibly bored?
Now, you might think I'm being facetious, but in a game that isn't really about combat, I could. In A Tale in the Desert, I could go do everything. Everything. I wouldn't be hindered in the slightest by my refusal to do any combat. In Uncharted Waters Online, I could get my adventure and trade levels to the level cap, a full complement of 50 or so skills all the way to their level caps, lots of good gear, a big fast ship, and have lots of things to do. A complete refusal to participate in combat would be a relatively minor hindrance in playing the game. And even much of that disadvantage could be removed by fighting in about ten or so battles, total. Ever.
Now, those are sandbox games, but I'm really not complaining that SWTOR isn't a sandbox game. I'm not complaining that it has too much combat. There are some theme park games that I like, too, in addition to some that are more heavily combat-focused than SWTOR is. But those games actually put some work into making the combat interesting.
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"To the above poster commenting about combat, its clear youve never played it. Combat is the most polished I have seen in a themepark MMO."
It's not polish that is the issue. It's underlying game mechanics. If you don't like tic-tac-toe, then a highly polished tic-tac-toe game still isn't interesting.
If the combat is so great, then why doesn't anyone want to talk about it? Why aren't people constantly saying, this is how combat works, and this is why it's really great?
Because it wasn't?
Who are these "so many people?"
I'd argue that SW:TOR is the first real MMORPG ever released.
The game is exactly what any logical person following its developement expected it to be. It's not some world shattering, genre morphing game. But I have been beyond pleased with it since I started way back when.
Disappointment = 0
I see where you're going with that but I'll have to add my 2cents. The game mechanics were no secret to anyone that payed any attention to the game, yes. But with a $300mil+ budget, you would expect some of the common sensical things that are wrong with the game to not be there. For instance: the world seems very bland and lifeless in parts. The few NPC's that do have idle animations barely ever do them. Mobs just stand there and do nothing in their little packs of 2-3 of them. There are not many ambient animations or noises in the game (note that I said not many, not "none").
what he said.
Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can
be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.
-Robert E. Howard
Good lord. Another person who still throws out that $300 million number? That price tag has long since been proven wrong and quite frankly anyone who keeps using it is someone I won't bother listening to.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
proven where? everything I have read always just says estimated I've seen anywhere from 80 mil to 300 mil
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
Gee where have you been, I read on the net that it was over a billion
useless arguements
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee