I like to read opinions which are just opinions but when people like OP try to pass their opinions as some fact then it becomes quite clear the real intentions behind opinions like these.
How many servers SWTOR will launch with on release?
ShredderSE - Umm how many do they need? Maybe 6. US, EU, Asian, France, German and Russian. Subs will be so low there is no need for more Snoocky-How many servers? The first 3 months a lot...after that 2 i guess, one for PVE and 1 for PVP...
Thorbrand - SWTOR doesn't have longevity at all. Might be one of the shortest lived MMOs.
I read plenty of fiction, non-fiction, and like different styles of writing. And I don't notice anything out of place with SWTOR... Is your critique for real? It sounds like you're describing any MMO on the market, except this one has a voiced story. But you're saying you want to skip the story... Um, you know it's an MMO RPG (role playing game) right? The main attraction of SWTOR is the cinematic story, the side meal is the standard MMO quest mechanics.
You have no idea what RPG is then. You're describing a Story-Telling Game, which is separate from RPG. RPG solely represents the mechanics of character advencement and combat, etc, story is just a premium extra. Heavy story-oriented games are called STORY-TELLING GAMES. And as far as I know this is not MMOSTG (MultiMassive Story-Telling Game).
QFT.
RPG in past days was about you playing a role in a bigger part of something, in MMOs that was a world. As many stated in this thread the industry seems to have shifted away from that and into a more guided experience. Exploration used to be the thing ( even in WoW it was a big deal ) but it seems like it is going away. WoW has changed with cataclysm away from an exploratoin of world game and more into a guided experience as well. In addition, your interactions with the world shaped your role, which could be different than many others playing as they have different experiences. This has also gone away to some extent.
As vanguard was mentioned here I shall use it as an example .... it takes this to the extreme, where interaction with the world is what defined your character, There was so much content and area to explore that where you went defined quite a bit about your Role. Because the was no 1 path, but many many many paths each character would have some uniqueness to it. ( gear was different on different continents for example, even crafted styles were different )
Vanguard and older games were less about, taking the same 10 steps someone else took... and more about taking your own steps and defining your own experience, yet with in a world the developer provided.
You won't hear in TOR about something that you never saw or never will see on your leveling path because everyone sees exactly the same content along the way.
My theory ? .... below ....
What these companies are trying to do is simply add enough features from multiple genres to get a huge audience... its really simple. SWTOR is a very shallow "RPG" more shallow than ME/ME2 and certainly more shallow than Dragon Age Origins and we all remember ( likely ) how Dragon Age 2 did ( poorly ). What it results in is a shallow RPG experience, shallow FPS-combat experience ( although I think combat could be SWTORs best feature )... and that is how you appeal to the mass market. Give them all a bit of everything but don;t go to deep in anything, thus appealing to a huge audience.
That said, folks looking for a really in depth RPG experience won't find that in TOR, they will find something else, and something they might like quite a bit, but not what I think the OP was looking for. ( nor I ). Graphics are another example, the graphics in TOR are not on par with many MMOs ( RIFT, Aion, WOW even, LOTRO ) i can go on, but take a look at the blocky textures...
Why did they do this ? To make the game look bad ? No ! TO appeal to a broader playerbase with low end hardware..
The best comparison to non gaming things I have heard is cheesburgers. if you are just the type that wants a burger now and then and you just want it quick, you know Mcdonalds can solve that for you or your local bar n grill... its everywhere, not very involved, easily accessible and it fixes your fixx...
However, if you are a burger afficionado you would likely think McDonalds sucks big time and need something a bit more refined..
You can take this comparison to wine, beer anything consumers buy/consume. SWTOR is certainly like fast food, its not really deep but it can be fun and entertaining at the same time. I like a dirty fast food burger from time to time
ON the Storytelling:
I thought the storytelling was pretty bad myself but again, there are comprimises to be made. What was great about Mass Effect ? well, its a single player RPG and you are the hero, you choices greatly affect the world/universe you play in... what blew me away from ME1 to ME2 is the persistance of it that your choices would be present in ME2.. I thought that was absolutely brillaint and it was done by some of the same writers above ( karpyshn for example ).
Problem with SWTOR is 2 fold. 1. Its an MMo and they did not design an evolving environment timline at all ( basiclaly taking the Eq/WoW model there ) 2. It is star wars, I mean did folks on this thread see the prequels ? I mean the dialogue in SW episode 2 has so many cringe moments... its so PG its rediculous ... but again this was done to appeal to the "mass market". ( at least EP3 felt like EP4-6 )
So not only do you have a static environment to play in, where your choices and actions do absolutely nothing to the world you are spending time in but the story you are on means nothing to the world around it... its really kinda tough with the design the chose to make it more interesting...
So as much as the writers as you say may not be top notch, given the decision to make a static world that does not change, and in the desire for mass appeal ( and young/family appeal ) you can't really break much new ground.
Everyone should experience the game for themeselves and make up their own minds about if they like it or ntot, for some SWTOR is the best thing ever, for others its a played out model with new and not so great looking lipstick.
SWTOR is more like guild wars 1 than WOW from what i saw with several characters through level 30 which i thought was a horrible experience but many many people loved it...
I could have told you everything you complained about this game a month ago. IMO the game has bad character models and quite bad animations and I saw a number of videos to form that opinion.
The flow of quests was obviously formulaic and repetitive. If you don't like cutscenes and are down on the themepark generic quest thing, then it will be a complete slog to muddle your way through.
Now some people are OK with that as they like various other things or, for some reason I can't fathom, think the animation and models are ok or are fine with themepark games with highly restricted nad predicable character development given to you on a plate.
I hope you didn't spend money on this. There is no reason you should have, there was plenty of info out there.
I read plenty of fiction, non-fiction, and like different styles of writing. And I don't notice anything out of place with SWTOR... Is your critique for real? It sounds like you're describing any MMO on the market, except this one has a voiced story. But you're saying you want to skip the story... Um, you know it's an MMO RPG (role playing game) right? The main attraction of SWTOR is the cinematic story, the side meal is the standard MMO quest mechanics.
You have no idea what RPG is then. You're describing a Story-Telling Game, which is separate from RPG. RPG solely represents the mechanics of character advencement and combat, etc, story is just a premium extra. Heavy story-oriented games are called STORY-TELLING GAMES. And as far as I know this is not MMOSTG (MultiMassive Story-Telling Game).
Well my first RPG i ever played was DSA (pen and paper RPG) about 25 years ago it was pretty much exactly what Star Wars is now you were following a story which the GM was telling and had multiple choices at some points that alter the story i will admit that other pen and paper RPGs (like Shadowrun or DD/ADD) were more than just following a story but the core was the same the gamemaster created the gameworlds for the gamers (according to rulebooks of course) and the players played there characters in this world following the plot/story.
I will not claim to be an expert in RPGs (even tho i believe 25 years of expierience should count for something) but i can say for sure that while the character advancment and fights were always an important part of the RPGs the Story and how we played our characters in the world always was more important and what made the game an RPG
I read plenty of fiction, non-fiction, and like different styles of writing. And I don't notice anything out of place with SWTOR... Is your critique for real? It sounds like you're describing any MMO on the market, except this one has a voiced story. But you're saying you want to skip the story... Um, you know it's an MMO RPG (role playing game) right? The main attraction of SWTOR is the cinematic story, the side meal is the standard MMO quest mechanics.
You have no idea what RPG is then. You're describing a Story-Telling Game, which is separate from RPG. RPG solely represents the mechanics of character advencement and combat, etc, story is just a premium extra. Heavy story-oriented games are called STORY-TELLING GAMES. And as far as I know this is not MMOSTG (MultiMassive Story-Telling Game).
Well my first RPG i ever played was DSA (pen and paper RPG) about 25 years ago it was pretty much exactly what Star Wars is now you were following a story which the GM was telling and had multiple choices at some points that alter the story i will admit that other pen and paper RPGs (like Shadowrun or DD/ADD) were more than just following a story but the core was the same the gamemaster created the gameworlds for the gamers (according to rulebooks of course) and the players played there characters in this world following the plot/story.
I will not claim to be an expert in RPGs (even tho i believe 25 years of expierience should count for something) but i can say for sure that while the character advancment and fights were always an important part of the RPGs the Story and how we played our characters in the world always was more important and what made the game an RPG
I think you are onto something there my friend... the challenge is how do you make the player in a massively multiplayer setting feel like they are having the impact they would have in a small group sotry telling experience .. its hard to do and at times I think bioware didnt take a very original design approach to it... more like a stick the 2 together approach.. which is going to be a heck of a good experience for many folks... but also leave some out in the cold because its hard to take those 2 pieces and really exploit their strengths in the same game...
I read plenty of fiction, non-fiction, and like different styles of writing. And I don't notice anything out of place with SWTOR... Is your critique for real? It sounds like you're describing any MMO on the market, except this one has a voiced story. But you're saying you want to skip the story... Um, you know it's an MMO RPG (role playing game) right? The main attraction of SWTOR is the cinematic story, the side meal is the standard MMO quest mechanics.
You have no idea what RPG is then. You're describing a Story-Telling Game, which is separate from RPG. RPG solely represents the mechanics of character advencement and combat, etc, story is just a premium extra. Heavy story-oriented games are called STORY-TELLING GAMES. And as far as I know this is not MMOSTG (MultiMassive Story-Telling Game).
Well my first RPG i ever played was DSA (pen and paper RPG) about 25 years ago it was pretty much exactly what Star Wars is now you were following a story which the GM was telling and had multiple choices at some points that alter the story i will admit that other pen and paper RPGs (like Shadowrun or DD/ADD) were more than just following a story but the core was the same the gamemaster created the gameworlds for the gamers (according to rulebooks of course) and the players played there characters in this world following the plot/story.
I will not claim to be an expert in RPGs (even tho i believe 25 years of expierience should count for something) but i can say for sure that while the character advancment and fights were always an important part of the RPGs the Story and how we played our characters in the world always was more important and what made the game an RPG
I'm saying, story-telling in RPG is a premium extra feature, it's not a defining feature of RPG. If they said Warcraft 3 was a mix of RTS and RPG, it meant, there was a character attributes / advancement system (RPG), story was in all parts of Warcraft RTS, and they never bother to call Warcraft 2 RTS/RPG just because it had a story.
I don't want to comment on the quality of your GM, but when we played pen and paper RPGs, the GM prepared the region where we'd play, and let us basically play in it. He wasn't forcing us to follow his preset path or letting us choose between two or three parths. The beauty of pen and paper are improvisations and unexpected situations, good GM should handle these.
RPG in past days was about you playing a role in a bigger part of something, in MMOs that was a world. As many stated in this thread the industry seems to have shifted away from that and into a more guided experience. Exploration used to be the thing ( even in WoW it was a big deal ) but it seems like it is going away. WoW has changed with cataclysm away from an exploratoin of world game and more into a guided experience as well. In addition, your interactions with the world shaped your role, which could be different than many others playing as they have different experiences. This has also gone away to some extent.
Wow was always a guided experience and never about exploration. Quests would take you everywhere, even back at launch. There is not a single thing that someone would have pointed out in the game world that I hadnt already seen while questing to max level., because it holds your hand the whole way Your interactions with the world shaped your role? Please elaborate, because from what I remember it didnt. Beat Naxx? Oh its still there, just wait for the timer to finish and do it again.
Hell, you can go into Molten Core 6 years later and nothing has changed, the mobs are still there waiting for you. So what exactly did you change in the world? Oh thats right, nothing. Just like in every other MMO to date and in the foreseeable future.
You could argue 'phasing' from WoW, but thats just an aestetic trick while you solo. It certainly didnt feel heroic, just like your hand was being held as events happened around you which didnt really impact the world. If you fly to the capital city noone will be singing out your heroics, because you are just like every other person in the whole world.
As vanguard was mentioned here I shall use it as an example .... it takes this to the extreme, where interaction with the world is what defined your character, There was so much content and area to explore that where you went defined quite a bit about your Role. Because the was no 1 path, but many many many paths each character would have some uniqueness to it. ( gear was different on different continents for example, even crafted styles were different )
Vanguard and older games were less about, taking the same 10 steps someone else took... and more about taking your own steps and defining your own experience, yet with in a world the developer provided.
You won't hear in TOR about something that you never saw or never will see on your leveling path because everyone sees exactly the same content along the way.
Vanguard had multiple leveling paths - yes. But it was no more deep than any other MMO, it was still -> go to quest hub -> get quests -> kill mobs nearby -> go to next quest hub. Its easy to look back with rose tinted glasses, but Vanguards questing system was terrible. And while the classes were interesting, the rest of the game was a complete failure. Why would Bioware want to emulate that train wreck? And for what? The few thousand subscribers that Vanguard had at launch? No... they can get more with their current design.
Also the environments were far less varied than SWTOR. The linearness of SWTOR drops off after you get to Alderan / Tatooine / Hoth at level 30ish. Your main quest will only take you to about 20% of that area, and even less as you get to the 40+ planets. So exploration definitely comes into play. There are also areas with world bosses and the like that quests wont lead you to, and holocrons to discover which encourages exploration.
That said, folks looking for a really in depth RPG experience won't find that in TOR, they will find something else, and something they might like quite a bit, but not what I think the OP was looking for. ( nor I ). Graphics are another example, the graphics in TOR are not on par with many MMOs ( RIFT, Aion, WOW even, LOTRO ) i can go on, but take a look at the blocky textures...
Why did they do this ? To make the game look bad ? No ! TO appeal to a broader playerbase with low end hardware..
The low texture quality was a bug introduced late in beta which is being fixed in the first patch. The game looks better than any other MMO except perhaps AoC and TERA.
The best comparison to non gaming things I have heard is cheesburgers. if you are just the type that wants a burger now and then and you just want it quick, you know Mcdonalds can solve that for you or your local bar n grill... its everywhere, not very involved, easily accessible and it fixes your fixx...
However, if you are a burger afficionado you would likely think McDonalds sucks big time and need something a bit more refined..
You can take this comparison to wine, beer anything consumers buy/consume. SWTOR is certainly like fast food, its not really deep but it can be fun and entertaining at the same time. I like a dirty fast food burger from time to time
This line gets thrown out for every themepark MMO since WoW. The problem is that this is all SWTOR aspired to, being fun and mainstream like WoW. So not seeing the issue there.
ON the Storytelling:
I thought the storytelling was pretty bad myself but again, there are comprimises to be made. What was great about Mass Effect ? well, its a single player RPG and you are the hero, you choices greatly affect the world/universe you play in... what blew me away from ME1 to ME2 is the persistance of it that your choices would be present in ME2.. I thought that was absolutely brillaint and it was done by some of the same writers above ( karpyshn for example ).
Problem with SWTOR is 2 fold. 1. Its an MMo and they did not design an evolving environment timline at all ( basiclaly taking the Eq/WoW model there ) 2. It is star wars, I mean did folks on this thread see the prequels ? I mean the dialogue in SW episode 2 has so many cringe moments... its so PG its rediculous ... but again this was done to appeal to the "mass market". ( at least EP3 felt like EP4-6 )
Depends on your storyline and your choice of good or evil. The republic side is a bit of a bore unless you go evil. Empire is interesting regardless of whether you decide to be evil or good. The companions you take with you also add a bit of flavour to the dialogue.
So not only do you have a static environment to play in, where your choices and actions do absolutely nothing to the world you are spending time in but the story you are on means nothing to the world around it... its really kinda tough with the design the chose to make it more interesting...
SWTOR does this the same way every other MMO does it, by having characters refer to your achievements. Theres no way to make a permanent world change in a MMO. Even what GW2 is promising is only a temporary change to the world. WoW has only just started using phasing with the latest expansion, and for all intents and purposes, its a pretty shallow addition. It doesnt make me feel like I have accomplished anything by watching a zone phase.
So as much as the writers as you say may not be top notch, given the decision to make a static world that does not change, and in the desire for mass appeal ( and young/family appeal ) you can't really break much new ground.
Everyone should experience the game for themeselves and make up their own minds about if they like it or ntot, for some SWTOR is the best thing ever, for others its a played out model with new and not so great looking lipstick.
SWTOR is more like guild wars 1 than WOW from what i saw with several characters through level 30 which i thought was a horrible experience but many many people loved it...
Its a fully fleged MMO like WoW. If you choose to play it by only using your companion and soloing, then thats your own choice, and not reflective of the game as a whole.
Well my first RPG i ever played was DSA (pen and paper RPG) about 25 years ago it was pretty much exactly what Star Wars is now you were following a story which the GM was telling and had multiple choices at some points that alter the story i will admit that other pen and paper RPGs (like Shadowrun or DD/ADD) were more than just following a story but the core was the same the gamemaster created the gameworlds for the gamers (according to rulebooks of course) and the players played there characters in this world following the plot/story.
I will not claim to be an expert in RPGs (even tho i believe 25 years of expierience should count for something) but i can say for sure that while the character advancment and fights were always an important part of the RPGs the Story and how we played our characters in the world always was more important and what made the game an RPG
I think you are onto something there my friend... the challenge is how do you make the player in a massively multiplayer setting feel like they are having the impact they would have in a small group sotry telling experience .. its hard to do and at times I think bioware didnt take a very original design approach to it... more like a stick the 2 together approach.. which is going to be a heck of a good experience for many folks... but also leave some out in the cold because its hard to take those 2 pieces and really exploit their strengths in the same game...
I think the main problem with these story-based MMOs (WoW sort of overcomes it with phasing but it is not put in the game as much as it could be and it has serious drawbacks) is that they are automated.
The reason why table top RPGs are so great is because it is the GM that changes the world for the players once the players have done something.
There is no equivalent in MMOs. The only way a game could adopt this is by having real GMs in there doing live events constantly, and an army of developers/writers coming in and changing things as they happen. That will never become mainstream.
Back in the early and mid-90s, some of the text-based MUDs and MUSHes (the RPG version of the MUD) had dedicated volunteer GMs running live events. These GMs also knew scripting and could change the world based on the actions of players. It was great!
Live events of course are run in MMOs but they have really minimal impact on the gameworld overall and quite a few people whine about them (something like the plague event that was released in WoW and made a lot of players unhappy because it disrupted their way of playing the game..; I thought it was cool).
I read plenty of fiction, non-fiction, and like different styles of writing. And I don't notice anything out of place with SWTOR... Is your critique for real? It sounds like you're describing any MMO on the market, except this one has a voiced story. But you're saying you want to skip the story... Um, you know it's an MMO RPG (role playing game) right? The main attraction of SWTOR is the cinematic story, the side meal is the standard MMO quest mechanics.
You have no idea what RPG is then. You're describing a Story-Telling Game, which is separate from RPG. RPG solely represents the mechanics of character advencement and combat, etc, story is just a premium extra. Heavy story-oriented games are called STORY-TELLING GAMES. And as far as I know this is not MMOSTG (MultiMassive Story-Telling Game).
Well my first RPG i ever played was DSA (pen and paper RPG) about 25 years ago it was pretty much exactly what Star Wars is now you were following a story which the GM was telling and had multiple choices at some points that alter the story i will admit that other pen and paper RPGs (like Shadowrun or DD/ADD) were more than just following a story but the core was the same the gamemaster created the gameworlds for the gamers (according to rulebooks of course) and the players played there characters in this world following the plot/story.
I will not claim to be an expert in RPGs (even tho i believe 25 years of expierience should count for something) but i can say for sure that while the character advancment and fights were always an important part of the RPGs the Story and how we played our characters in the world always was more important and what made the game an RPG
I'm saying, story-telling in RPG is a premium extra feature, it's not a defining feature of RPG. If they said Warcraft 3 was a mix of RTS and RPG, it meant, there was a character attributes / advancement system (RPG), story was in all parts of Warcraft RTS, and they never bother to call Warcraft 2 RTS/RPG just because it had a story.
I don't want to comment on the quality of your GM, but when we played pen and paper RPGs, the GM prepared the region where we'd play, and let us basically play in it. He wasn't forcing us to follow his preset path or letting us choose between two or three parths. The beauty of pen and paper are improvisations and unexpected situations, good GM should handle these.
I guess i should have seen this coming maybe i wasnt clear enough dunno.
Anyway i did say Shadowrun or DD/ADD were more than that but the very first DSA games were pretty much prewritten storys thats why i said its like Starwars.
I do not know what you mean by preparing the region tho its all in the books its not like you prepare a whole new world all you do is taking the excisting world and give it your personal live and let players play in it within this world the players are free to do whatever they want (or at least they think they can) .
The fact is the GM is god you can do whatever you want if its not going intoi the right direction the GM has means to stop you.
Taking Shadowrun as an example when i was leadiung games it was most important to have a story set up before we play (like what kind of run will they do) it needs to be planned out before. You will have to draw exact floor plans to provide to your players come up with matrix security, guards, magic security and other stuff. All this has to be done before. If my players will see/get all this information obviously depends on how they play what choices they make maybe they wount even go on the run couse they wanna do some vacation or just take a stroll(or maybe they act too stupid and i let a cow fall on them and they die...lol).
With a static group you can comunicate more create a story more suited to them (We had a campaign that took well over 1 year to be finished with one of my statc groups)
But in the end its a story controlled by the GM you can play your part in it act however you want but the GM always has the option to limit you (you wanna meet someone but just cant reach him/wanna drive to the beach but car breaks down etc.) and thats what (in my opinion) makes it an RPG you do play your Role in the world nothing more nothig less.
There are some pretty strong statements in that original post. I'd hope that somebody to make claims like that would be a professional in a closely related business. It takes more than just reading up on imdb to be able to call another writer unprofessional with at least some degree of credibility.
I read plenty of fiction, non-fiction, and like different styles of writing. And I don't notice anything out of place with SWTOR... Is your critique for real? It sounds like you're describing any MMO on the market, except this one has a voiced story. But you're saying you want to skip the story... Um, you know it's an MMO RPG (role playing game) right? The main attraction of SWTOR is the cinematic story, the side meal is the standard MMO quest mechanics.
You have no idea what RPG is then. You're describing a Story-Telling Game, which is separate from RPG. RPG solely represents the mechanics of character advencement and combat, etc, story is just a premium extra. Heavy story-oriented games are called STORY-TELLING GAMES. And as far as I know this is not MMOSTG (MultiMassive Story-Telling Game).
No, actually there are different kinds of RPGs. RPG originally meant a game where you play a role in a story focused game. RPG mechanics (meaning stats, dice rolls, etc) have been adopted by more action-oriented games. But the core of RPG still means a game that focuses on story where you play a role in the story. Combat is involved, but it's not the main focus of the game. You can use RPG to describe a more action oriented game that uses RPG combat mechanics and stats. But you're a little confused if you're trying to kick the true literal role-playing games out of the RPG house lol.
Have you ever heard of table-top roleplaying? That's more along the lines of what the core of RPG is. Just because action games borrow stats and combat rolls doesn't suddenly make them the inheritors or the RPG title...
I read plenty of fiction, non-fiction, and like different styles of writing. And I don't notice anything out of place with SWTOR... Is your critique for real? It sounds like you're describing any MMO on the market, except this one has a voiced story. But you're saying you want to skip the story... Um, you know it's an MMO RPG (role playing game) right? The main attraction of SWTOR is the cinematic story, the side meal is the standard MMO quest mechanics.
You have no idea what RPG is then. You're describing a Story-Telling Game, which is separate from RPG. RPG solely represents the mechanics of character advencement and combat, etc, story is just a premium extra. Heavy story-oriented games are called STORY-TELLING GAMES. And as far as I know this is not MMOSTG (MultiMassive Story-Telling Game).
No, actually there are different kinds of RPGs. RPG originally meant a game where you play a role in a story focused game. RPG mechanics (meaning stats, dice rolls, etc) have been adopted by more action-oriented games. But the core of RPG still means a game that focuses on story where you play a role in the story. Combat is involved, but it's not the main focus of the game. You can use RPG to describe a more action oriented game that uses RPG combat mechanics and stats. But you're a little confused if you're trying to kick the true literal role-playing games out of the RPG house lol.
Have you ever heard of table-top roleplaying? That's more along the lines of what the core of RPG is. Just because action games borrow stats and combat rolls doesn't suddenly make them the inheritors or the RPG title...
You are describing Story-Telling Games (A separate type of games) The original RPG pen and paper came from D&D Chainmail - a miniature skirmish game (which basically contained combat rules, and there was a book with background information describing the world - however the gameplay of D&D Chainmail was solely about combat). First D&D Edition is about character attribute / advencement system - the story plays a minimal role -- read the sample scenario if you have the book ( i have it in my hands right now ) - the sample scenario consists of a simple dungeon layer with a generic evil villain story.
RPG is solely the mechanics. I'm talking about pen and paper not CRPGs. Story-Telling Games are separate from Role Playing Games (if you don't know the difference, why don't you use google then?). Story-telling is often part of Role Playing, but it is not a neccessity nor its prime feature.
Show some respect for the hard work of people. Lots of people in these forums are students with no experience at work a day. Lots of people here don't have a clue to make a team work as a whole, customers one side, share holders one side, employees other side. This is a big massive business afterall and lots of people earned their livings in this process. If you dont like it, step forward and choose another profession for your self than a "blogger". If you dont like it write it down why you dont like, then move along. Find sth for your self usefull. You cant even entertain your self with a game. Its too much hope for you to find your perfect game.
Show some respect for the hard work of people. Lots of people in these forums are students with no experience at work a day.
Not much true. Someone already made a poll on general forum and stated that the majority here has 21 years old plus. Less than 10% is younger than that
Show some respect for the hard work of people. Lots of people in these forums are students with no experience at work a day. Lots of people here don't have a clue to make a team work as a whole, customers one side, share holders one side, employees other side. This is a big massive business afterall and lots of people earned their livings in this process. If you dont like it, step forward and choose another profession for your self than a "blogger". If you dont like it write it down why you dont like, then move along. Find sth for your self usefull. You cant even entertain your self with a game. Its too much hope for you to find your perfect game.
Luckily for us, most of us are in a democracy and have the right to speak our minds. There are a lot of people on these forums trying to shut up the people that are unhappy with the result of certain high profile titles that come out. They simply want the genre to evolve and improve and you are not going to get there by simply to shut up and accept everything that is thrown at you.
A lot of people enjoy this game and others and this is very good for them but the point of a forum is also to debate whether or not something is good.
This mainstreamy stuff will keep arriving as long people buy it but the genre will have to evolve some time.
Originally posted by almalexiusThey simply want the genre to evolve and improve and you are not going to get there by simply to shut up and accept everything that is thrown at you.
Trolling 3rd party boards won't get you there either...
Venting out publicly your frustration isn't considered polite and acceptable in real-life, and there is no reason why it should be different here.
They simply want the genre to evolve and improve and you are not going to get there by simply to shut up and accept everything that is thrown at you.
Trolling 3rd party boards won't get you there either...
Venting out publicly your frustration isn't considered polite and acceptable in real-life, and there is no reason why it should be different here.
"An Internet forum, or message board, is an online discussion site where people can hold conversations in the form of posted messages."
Trolling as in everyone that does not agree with me is a troll. Whether it's a frustrated opnion or not is not important. You take part in the "discussion" so you must agree right?
Originally posted by almalexius "An Internet forum, or message board, is an online discussion site where people can hold conversations in the form of posted messages."
Not all posted messages are equal and just because it is a message board does not mean anything can or should be posted here.
Oh, while I agree that the quality of writing and story-telling in SWTOR might look like that the writers were not paid and doing it solely for the respect and praise of the MMORPG users, which would also explain their lack of previous professional history in this industry, however I'm still more inclined to think that even the writers were actually paid for their hard work.
Comments
I like to read opinions which are just opinions but when people like OP try to pass their opinions as some fact then it becomes quite clear the real intentions behind opinions like these.
How many servers SWTOR will launch with on release?
ShredderSE - Umm how many do they need? Maybe 6.
US, EU, Asian, France, German and Russian.
Subs will be so low there is no need for more
Snoocky-How many servers?
The first 3 months a lot...after that 2 i guess, one for PVE and 1 for PVP...
Thorbrand - SWTOR doesn't have longevity at all. Might be one of the shortest lived MMOs.
QFT.
RPG in past days was about you playing a role in a bigger part of something, in MMOs that was a world. As many stated in this thread the industry seems to have shifted away from that and into a more guided experience. Exploration used to be the thing ( even in WoW it was a big deal ) but it seems like it is going away. WoW has changed with cataclysm away from an exploratoin of world game and more into a guided experience as well. In addition, your interactions with the world shaped your role, which could be different than many others playing as they have different experiences. This has also gone away to some extent.
As vanguard was mentioned here I shall use it as an example .... it takes this to the extreme, where interaction with the world is what defined your character, There was so much content and area to explore that where you went defined quite a bit about your Role. Because the was no 1 path, but many many many paths each character would have some uniqueness to it. ( gear was different on different continents for example, even crafted styles were different )
Vanguard and older games were less about, taking the same 10 steps someone else took... and more about taking your own steps and defining your own experience, yet with in a world the developer provided.
You won't hear in TOR about something that you never saw or never will see on your leveling path because everyone sees exactly the same content along the way.
My theory ? .... below ....
What these companies are trying to do is simply add enough features from multiple genres to get a huge audience... its really simple. SWTOR is a very shallow "RPG" more shallow than ME/ME2 and certainly more shallow than Dragon Age Origins and we all remember ( likely ) how Dragon Age 2 did ( poorly ). What it results in is a shallow RPG experience, shallow FPS-combat experience ( although I think combat could be SWTORs best feature )... and that is how you appeal to the mass market. Give them all a bit of everything but don;t go to deep in anything, thus appealing to a huge audience.
That said, folks looking for a really in depth RPG experience won't find that in TOR, they will find something else, and something they might like quite a bit, but not what I think the OP was looking for. ( nor I ). Graphics are another example, the graphics in TOR are not on par with many MMOs ( RIFT, Aion, WOW even, LOTRO ) i can go on, but take a look at the blocky textures...
Why did they do this ? To make the game look bad ? No ! TO appeal to a broader playerbase with low end hardware..
The best comparison to non gaming things I have heard is cheesburgers. if you are just the type that wants a burger now and then and you just want it quick, you know Mcdonalds can solve that for you or your local bar n grill... its everywhere, not very involved, easily accessible and it fixes your fixx...
However, if you are a burger afficionado you would likely think McDonalds sucks big time and need something a bit more refined..
You can take this comparison to wine, beer anything consumers buy/consume. SWTOR is certainly like fast food, its not really deep but it can be fun and entertaining at the same time. I like a dirty fast food burger from time to time
ON the Storytelling:
I thought the storytelling was pretty bad myself but again, there are comprimises to be made. What was great about Mass Effect ? well, its a single player RPG and you are the hero, you choices greatly affect the world/universe you play in... what blew me away from ME1 to ME2 is the persistance of it that your choices would be present in ME2.. I thought that was absolutely brillaint and it was done by some of the same writers above ( karpyshn for example ).
Problem with SWTOR is 2 fold. 1. Its an MMo and they did not design an evolving environment timline at all ( basiclaly taking the Eq/WoW model there ) 2. It is star wars, I mean did folks on this thread see the prequels ? I mean the dialogue in SW episode 2 has so many cringe moments... its so PG its rediculous ... but again this was done to appeal to the "mass market". ( at least EP3 felt like EP4-6 )
So not only do you have a static environment to play in, where your choices and actions do absolutely nothing to the world you are spending time in but the story you are on means nothing to the world around it... its really kinda tough with the design the chose to make it more interesting...
So as much as the writers as you say may not be top notch, given the decision to make a static world that does not change, and in the desire for mass appeal ( and young/family appeal ) you can't really break much new ground.
Everyone should experience the game for themeselves and make up their own minds about if they like it or ntot, for some SWTOR is the best thing ever, for others its a played out model with new and not so great looking lipstick.
SWTOR is more like guild wars 1 than WOW from what i saw with several characters through level 30 which i thought was a horrible experience but many many people loved it...
Man, why did you bother playing this game?
I could have told you everything you complained about this game a month ago. IMO the game has bad character models and quite bad animations and I saw a number of videos to form that opinion.
The flow of quests was obviously formulaic and repetitive. If you don't like cutscenes and are down on the themepark generic quest thing, then it will be a complete slog to muddle your way through.
Now some people are OK with that as they like various other things or, for some reason I can't fathom, think the animation and models are ok or are fine with themepark games with highly restricted nad predicable character development given to you on a plate.
I hope you didn't spend money on this. There is no reason you should have, there was plenty of info out there.
Well my first RPG i ever played was DSA (pen and paper RPG) about 25 years ago it was pretty much exactly what Star Wars is now you were following a story which the GM was telling and had multiple choices at some points that alter the story i will admit that other pen and paper RPGs (like Shadowrun or DD/ADD) were more than just following a story but the core was the same the gamemaster created the gameworlds for the gamers (according to rulebooks of course) and the players played there characters in this world following the plot/story.
I will not claim to be an expert in RPGs (even tho i believe 25 years of expierience should count for something) but i can say for sure that while the character advancment and fights were always an important part of the RPGs the Story and how we played our characters in the world always was more important and what made the game an RPG
I think you are onto something there my friend... the challenge is how do you make the player in a massively multiplayer setting feel like they are having the impact they would have in a small group sotry telling experience .. its hard to do and at times I think bioware didnt take a very original design approach to it... more like a stick the 2 together approach.. which is going to be a heck of a good experience for many folks... but also leave some out in the cold because its hard to take those 2 pieces and really exploit their strengths in the same game...
I'm saying, story-telling in RPG is a premium extra feature, it's not a defining feature of RPG. If they said Warcraft 3 was a mix of RTS and RPG, it meant, there was a character attributes / advancement system (RPG), story was in all parts of Warcraft RTS, and they never bother to call Warcraft 2 RTS/RPG just because it had a story.
I don't want to comment on the quality of your GM, but when we played pen and paper RPGs, the GM prepared the region where we'd play, and let us basically play in it. He wasn't forcing us to follow his preset path or letting us choose between two or three parths. The beauty of pen and paper are improvisations and unexpected situations, good GM should handle these.
REALITY CHECK
I think the main problem with these story-based MMOs (WoW sort of overcomes it with phasing but it is not put in the game as much as it could be and it has serious drawbacks) is that they are automated.
The reason why table top RPGs are so great is because it is the GM that changes the world for the players once the players have done something.
There is no equivalent in MMOs. The only way a game could adopt this is by having real GMs in there doing live events constantly, and an army of developers/writers coming in and changing things as they happen. That will never become mainstream.
Back in the early and mid-90s, some of the text-based MUDs and MUSHes (the RPG version of the MUD) had dedicated volunteer GMs running live events. These GMs also knew scripting and could change the world based on the actions of players. It was great!
Live events of course are run in MMOs but they have really minimal impact on the gameworld overall and quite a few people whine about them (something like the plague event that was released in WoW and made a lot of players unhappy because it disrupted their way of playing the game..; I thought it was cool).
Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.
I guess i should have seen this coming maybe i wasnt clear enough dunno.
Anyway i did say Shadowrun or DD/ADD were more than that but the very first DSA games were pretty much prewritten storys thats why i said its like Starwars.
I do not know what you mean by preparing the region tho its all in the books its not like you prepare a whole new world all you do is taking the excisting world and give it your personal live and let players play in it within this world the players are free to do whatever they want (or at least they think they can) .
The fact is the GM is god you can do whatever you want if its not going intoi the right direction the GM has means to stop you.
Taking Shadowrun as an example when i was leadiung games it was most important to have a story set up before we play (like what kind of run will they do) it needs to be planned out before. You will have to draw exact floor plans to provide to your players come up with matrix security, guards, magic security and other stuff. All this has to be done before. If my players will see/get all this information obviously depends on how they play what choices they make maybe they wount even go on the run couse they wanna do some vacation or just take a stroll(or maybe they act too stupid and i let a cow fall on them and they die...lol).
With a static group you can comunicate more create a story more suited to them (We had a campaign that took well over 1 year to be finished with one of my statc groups)
But in the end its a story controlled by the GM you can play your part in it act however you want but the GM always has the option to limit you (you wanna meet someone but just cant reach him/wanna drive to the beach but car breaks down etc.) and thats what (in my opinion) makes it an RPG you do play your Role in the world nothing more nothig less.
I very much agree with the OP. It's a game and not a B movie with bad dialogue/story.
WOW,eq2,Vanguard,WAR,LOTRO,AOC,Rift Aion, SWTOR, TERA.
Currently playing GW2.
There are some pretty strong statements in that original post. I'd hope that somebody to make claims like that would be a professional in a closely related business. It takes more than just reading up on imdb to be able to call another writer unprofessional with at least some degree of credibility.
No, actually there are different kinds of RPGs. RPG originally meant a game where you play a role in a story focused game. RPG mechanics (meaning stats, dice rolls, etc) have been adopted by more action-oriented games. But the core of RPG still means a game that focuses on story where you play a role in the story. Combat is involved, but it's not the main focus of the game. You can use RPG to describe a more action oriented game that uses RPG combat mechanics and stats. But you're a little confused if you're trying to kick the true literal role-playing games out of the RPG house lol.
Have you ever heard of table-top roleplaying? That's more along the lines of what the core of RPG is. Just because action games borrow stats and combat rolls doesn't suddenly make them the inheritors or the RPG title...
You are describing Story-Telling Games (A separate type of games) The original RPG pen and paper came from D&D Chainmail - a miniature skirmish game (which basically contained combat rules, and there was a book with background information describing the world - however the gameplay of D&D Chainmail was solely about combat). First D&D Edition is about character attribute / advencement system - the story plays a minimal role -- read the sample scenario if you have the book ( i have it in my hands right now ) - the sample scenario consists of a simple dungeon layer with a generic evil villain story.
RPG is solely the mechanics. I'm talking about pen and paper not CRPGs. Story-Telling Games are separate from Role Playing Games (if you don't know the difference, why don't you use google then?). Story-telling is often part of Role Playing, but it is not a neccessity nor its prime feature.
REALITY CHECK
Show some respect for the hard work of people. Lots of people in these forums are students with no experience at work a day. Lots of people here don't have a clue to make a team work as a whole, customers one side, share holders one side, employees other side. This is a big massive business afterall and lots of people earned their livings in this process. If you dont like it, step forward and choose another profession for your self than a "blogger". If you dont like it write it down why you dont like, then move along. Find sth for your self usefull. You cant even entertain your self with a game. Its too much hope for you to find your perfect game.
Not much true. Someone already made a poll on general forum and stated that the majority here has 21 years old plus. Less than 10% is younger than that
Luckily for us, most of us are in a democracy and have the right to speak our minds. There are a lot of people on these forums trying to shut up the people that are unhappy with the result of certain high profile titles that come out. They simply want the genre to evolve and improve and you are not going to get there by simply to shut up and accept everything that is thrown at you.
A lot of people enjoy this game and others and this is very good for them but the point of a forum is also to debate whether or not something is good.
This mainstreamy stuff will keep arriving as long people buy it but the genre will have to evolve some time.
WOW,eq2,Vanguard,WAR,LOTRO,AOC,Rift Aion, SWTOR, TERA.
Currently playing GW2.
Trolling 3rd party boards won't get you there either...
Venting out publicly your frustration isn't considered polite and acceptable in real-life, and there is no reason why it should be different here.
"An Internet forum, or message board, is an online discussion site where people can hold conversations in the form of posted messages."
Trolling as in everyone that does not agree with me is a troll. Whether it's a frustrated opnion or not is not important. You take part in the "discussion" so you must agree right?
WOW,eq2,Vanguard,WAR,LOTRO,AOC,Rift Aion, SWTOR, TERA.
Currently playing GW2.
Not all posted messages are equal and just because it is a message board does not mean anything can or should be posted here.
Oh, while I agree that the quality of writing and story-telling in SWTOR might look like that the writers were not paid and doing it solely for the respect and praise of the MMORPG users, which would also explain their lack of previous professional history in this industry, however I'm still more inclined to think that even the writers were actually paid for their hard work.
REALITY CHECK