this makes no sense from my point of view. So I ask, define this "Challenge" you speak of. I don't understand how you people view Challenege. Seems like Challenege is a synonym for time sinking correct? Because for example. I remember people saying WoW is easy. I assume, when somebody uses the word "Easy" they mean the opposite of Challenging.
first am I wrong to assume that when you people say WoW is "EASY" you mean the opposite of a challenge?
well if that's the case, than why is it, that most of these same players that complained about WoW being easy, never completed the Hard Core raid dungeons? Even in WoTLK, I seen this argument from players that didn't beat hardcore Lich King. So I get a little confused by what they mean by challenging. Because if you can't beat something, doesn't that make it a challenge? This is why I assume people are confusing the terms "Challegen" with the term "Time Sink".
matter of fact, I have another question for the people here. Is GUILD WARS 2, a more old school MMO, or new school MMO?
I hate to simplify things this much but it really comes down to numbers:)
content designed to require 20 people can not possibiliy be harder then content designed to REQUIRE 72 people. there isnt enough resources from the player side to accomplish the truly sadistic raids that EQ1 players are used to in a 20 man raid.
I'm talking about boss mobs that can crit on a single hit and flat out kill the best dressed/skilled tank on the server:D i'm talking about needing a full 2 groups(12 people) JUST to deal with 1 sub boss add... i'm talking about splitting up the raid to 3 sub raids of 24 man each while the main tank/cleric group hold down the main boss.
how many WoW raids really REQUIRED a main tank, a secondary tank, a tertiary tank, AND a backup/rampage tank behind that:D why do you need so many? because at any given time the main tank or the rampage/backup tank can be 1 rounded and someone else will need to take their spot immediately or the raid = wipe:D
and i've only covered a single aspect (tanking) side of the raid. there are so many other things that can make a raid go wipe if just 1 person makes 1 mistake in the whole raid:D how many raids have you been to where any single person dying will trigger a domino effect and wipe the entire raid?
Gah!!!!!!
I was talking about how hard it was for us to field enough folks the other night in a thread. If a few folks didnt show for our guild raids, it meant we probably were going to have a bad night. Many a night we were trying PoP content with high 50s, and low 60s. We were always a couple expansions behind, and even with the 5 lvl increase it was still a bitch.
Getting flagged for Time basically destroyed the guilds spirit. We wiped in Plane of Water(?) numerous times, and that one of the little area thingy we actually had to team up with another guild eventually to get done. Sorry cant remember exactly....was about the time I startd getting prescribed Vicodins daily, and memory can be an issue at times.
Even for all the hard core time sinks I say I would never do again, I would love for EQ to go FTP so I could access my first MMO characters again. That said, there are still folks playing till this very day, and would not wanna see them lose out on SOE making more expansions.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Tell me how you guys feel about this but the summary of the old school vs new school argument seems to me as follows:
Old school players look at time invested in a game as a good thing, the more time I have invested into obtaining a goal the better I feel for completing it. It gives it a sense of worth and puprose. It sets you apart from the majority of players and maybe only a few people have gotten this far it makes you feel that much better about it.
New school players look at time spent as unneccessary, small micro achievements and reinforcing the idea that you are succeeding often is the way to go. While time spent may or may not make a goal achieved feel better it's not fair to the player who can't spend as much time and should be rewarded for his efforts regardless of time invested.
new school: getting a gold star from your 1st grade teacher
old school: getting a medal of honer from congress:)
both rewards for accomplishments, one is just more "meaningful" then the other.
Tell me how you guys feel about this but the summary of the old school vs new school argument seems to me as follows:
Old school players look at time invested in a game as a good thing, the more time I have invested into obtaining a goal the better I feel for completing it. It gives it a sense of worth and puprose. It sets you apart from the majority of players and maybe only a few people have gotten this far it makes you feel that much better about it.
New school players look at time spent as unneccessary, small micro achievements and reinforcing the idea that you are succeeding often is the way to go. While time spent may or may not make a goal achieved feel better it's not fair to the player who can't spend as much time and should be rewarded for his efforts regardless of time invested.
new school: getting a gold star from your 1st grade teacher
old school: getting a medal of honer from congress:)
both rewards for accomplishments, one is just more "meaningful" then the other.
Please don't use the Medal of Honor for a comparison to something done in a game.
I was talking about how hard it was for us to field enough folks the other night in a thread. If a few folks didnt show for our guild raids, it meant we probably were going to have a bad night. Many a night we were trying PoP content with high 50s, and low 60s. We were always a couple expansions behind, and even with the 5 lvl increase it was still a bitch.
Getting flagged for Time basically destroyed the guilds spirit. We wiped in Plane of Water(?) numerous times, and that one of the little area thingy we actually had to team up with another guild eventually to get done. Sorry cant remember exactly....was about the time I startd getting prescribed Vicodins daily, and memory can be an issue at times.
Even for all the hard core time sinks I say I would never do again, I would love for EQ to go FTP so I could access my first MMO characters again. That said, there are still folks playing till this very day, and would not wanna see them lose out on SOE making more expansions.
hahaha nobody ever accuse SoE for not being self destructive:D
EQ1 could have been WoW except they keep shooting themselves in the feet:D had they not been such money grubbing arses and actually put out products that werent predictably/expectedly broken every 6 months trying to suck up as much money as possible, not as many people would have jumped to WoW to begin with and the domino effect of that paradyne shift is what made WoW the king of MMO's.
IMO it's unfortunate that current generation of gamers will never be able to experiance the grandure of scope and accomplishments that EQ1 was able to provide their playerbase. the comradery built over years of raiding super hard content isnt something that can be replaced by a 4 man group or 16 man raids.
the fact is people put up with the timesinks of EQ1 because the rewards it offered outweighted the "suffering" it's not a play style that young gamers can appreciate, and old gamers dont have as much time for anymore. BUT, while it shined, EQ1 will never be equaled in it's sense of accomplishment in providing the hardest raid content to ever come out in computer gaming history. friends made in EQ1 raids are often lasting friends that move on to other games together because they KNOW eachother as gamers and not some idiot 12 year old pewpew gimme ninja lewters:)
Please don't use the Medal of Honor for a comparison to something done in a game.
apologies.
in retorspect, it was poor taste.
I guess old school is more like reciving your diploma for your college degree:)
War games are poor taste full stop. There is such a thing as context no need to apologise. Old school is about not receiving a diploma its about studying because you enjoy the subject new school is about only studying if you get diplomas every week.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
War games are poor taste full stop. There is such a thing as context no need to apologise. Old school is about not receiving a diploma its about studying because you enjoy the subject new school is about only studying if you get diplomas every week.
No its not. I prefer new school because they are better games. I don't care about rewards, I play them because they're fun. More fun than old school games many of which feel like they are your second job you have to pay for.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
That is not the reality though, modern games are all about the reward/achievments. I wouldnt play a game that feels like a job, That means the game does not suit your favoured gameplay style.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
That is not the reality though, modern games are all about the reward/achievments. I wouldnt play a game that feels like a job, That means the game does not suit your favoured gameplay style.
So is new school all about rewards and achievements, or not? You kinda go against your statement there.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
The one thing i dont like would be how the game is always centered about End game and not the journey, Games where you can enjoy the leveling regardless of what level you are really work for me. Right now we just rush to end game and do the same old raids and gear progressions. This only works when the pvp is a huge part of the game. A game where it takes a while to level ( not somethin like decade but lets say 1 year as a casual). Only problem would be the fact that it will be very dependant on the number of people playing. If they create a very group dependent game where level progression is not as important as it is atm it would be pretty awesome.
War games are poor taste full stop. There is such a thing as context no need to apologise. Old school is about not receiving a diploma its about studying because you enjoy the subject new school is about only studying if you get diplomas every week.
No its not. I prefer new school because they are better games. I don't care about rewards, I play them because they're fun. More fun than old school games many of which feel like they are your second job you have to pay for.
Same here. Most MMOs are entertainment for me, not some kind of proving ground or self-worth affirmation app.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
New school games felt more of a second job than because you have your daily quest, daily pvp, weekly raid, have to track points. I know for me in old school it would what do i feel like doing today, well lets raise drinking and fishing while i chat with friends or lets grind some aa with some guildies i felt i had a big choice of things to do without doing dailies
New school games felt more of a second job than because you have your daily quest, daily pvp, weekly raid, have to track points. I know for me in old school it would what do i feel like doing today, well lets raise drinking and fishing while i chat with friends or lets grind some aa with some guildies i felt i had a big choice of things to do without doing dailies
Are there many MMOs where dailies are mandatory, or are you saying that the presence of the daily events created a certain sense of urgency or need that wouldn't have been there before?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The entertainment comes from the constant rewards. Would you play a newschool game without leveling up or getting new raid gear? Would you raid if they took out the phat l00tz? Would you raid the same raids over 10 times if it weren't to get that last bit of phat l00tz? If not you are a liar.
New school games ARE ALL ABOUT REWARDS. That is the entire basis for game play.
The whole reason they are "more fun" is because of the way they set up their reward schedule.
The entertainment comes from the constant rewards. Would you play a newschool game without leveling up or getting new raid gear? Would you raid if they took out the phat l00tz? Would you raid the same raids over 10 times if it weren't to get that last bit of phat l00tz? If not you are a liar.
New school games ARE ALL ABOUT REWARDS. That is the entire basis for game play.
The whole reason they are "more fun" is because of the way they set up their reward schedule.
they dont have to be, for me I always liked the teamplay of the raiding, to build up the raid, help each other to get stronger so you can get the next dragon down, now the past 2-3 years in EQ2 almost everyone act like what you describe "I NEED THIS I NEED THAT" or my time is wasted, which have made me more and more against raiding - and finally quitted EQ2 afew months back, even though it have annoyed me to no end for years that attitude.
it is all about how you percieve things...the phat loot to me always were nothing but the "invisable" key to unlock the next stage in the game - which become rather pointless to do now when everything is instanced anyway, and atleast in EQ2 you already are way overpowered for most things anyway, due to the loot over dose - but actually is one thing I love about Entropia at the moment, the items you get will never grow old, it all depends on what you are going to hunt, so you have to plan what you want to hunt, what to wear and what weapons you want to bring - as everything is equal to real money it is even important to think of what you can afford to hunt or craft, think Id still prefer the economy to not be connected to RL money thought but rather ensure that the money in the game world would be limited, so you still had to make this sort of thoughts.....what can I afford to do, if I fail hours of hardwork is waiting ahead which would mean = most would just quit calling the game a 2nd job ofc
(for reference: Old school player started with MUDs. new school player started on WoW TBC)
The other night over VOIP, i listened to two people argue over the current state of MMOs.
One person arguing they were upset with the current direction the genre has taken (much like what is seen on these boards)
The other person arguing they were happy with the direction, and games being offered.
Started off with a discussion on WoW, the old school person (henceforth known as Old), stated they stopped playing WoW after Cataclysm.
The new school person (henceforth known as New) asked why.
"There is no sense of community, and the game has turned into nothing but who can have the highest gear score"
New argued there is community, and the carrot on the stick is what MMOs always were about.
The argument went in circles for a while about how games all about items destroyed community, and how Old needed to find a guild that catered to his wishes.
Then the grind issue came up.
Old argued the grind promoted grouping and allowed you to learn many people on the server.
New argued LFD does the same thing, but that the game should not be about the grind and should be about end game.
Another looping argument about boring grinds, more community talk, back to the items argument, and how WoW has more subs than all old school mmos combined due to its ease of access.
It went of for about 30 min, neither side budging both sides making strong points, but never agreeing to disagree.
It reminded me of a political argument. Two different thoughts, neither willing to agree with the other, and a lot of looping arguments.
(i guess there isnt too much of a point here, just that the old vs new argument is never going to accomplish anything given they are different schools of thought)
That is why there use to be a premium market for MMORPG's. Since your argument also mirrors dochtomy within the playerbase.
YOUNG players want to kill and focus mainly on that, because they don't yet have fully developed cognascent skills, wich allow them to play subtextual meta-games along within their MMORPG.
Elf in an enchanted woodland in UO was preserved by roleplayers for years. Nothing a developer can do to match that.
It comes down to that young kids want to be entertained, while the older gen (or up-n-coming) graduates from WoW want to be challenged! (No matter what anyone says... who can argue that early EQ offered the most incredible challanges offered @ any depth, in any other MMORPG.)
It was sooo challenging that It was soon ruined by flagging & instancing because the younger gen had to spend years to become as advances as a guild as some 7 year clans. SOE cowtowed the the WoW gen and ruin Everquest as a challenging game. It's laughable by yeaser-years standards. The Progression servers proves this.
Challenging game are a costly choice, because the customer can be quite noisy and whinning and complain about being in our world now... and demand less challanging content.
Secondly, I feel the market will shift into upgraded accounts. Once SOE comes out with EQx.. they can again charge a premium, hopefully $25/month. With active and live GM roleplaying like in the old'n days.
Old vs New:
Oldschool = deeper crafting, deeper plotting, deeper delivery of war & battle. Freeform open worlds. Your in-game actions stand for who you are.
Newschool = instant gear, stats, scores, showboating, glitz, glamour. Their perceived by their online persona (facebook, twitter, vent/ts, forums)... than known for anything whorthwhile done in game. (ie: accomplishments).
At about age 27 they stop liking WoW's 1 dimensional play and graduate looking for something moAr... just like COD n00bs finding BF3.. & learning how bad they really are. It comes down to how much your willing to spend/invest in yourself... moneterilly and timewise.
this makes no sense from my point of view. So I ask, define this "Challenge" you speak of. I don't understand how you people view Challenege. Seems like Challenege is a synonym for time sinking correct? Because for example. I remember people saying WoW is easy. I assume, when somebody uses the word "Easy" they mean the opposite of Challenging.
first am I wrong to assume that when you people say WoW is "EASY" you mean the opposite of a challenge?
well if that's the case, than why is it, that most of these same players that complained about WoW being easy, never completed the Hard Core raid dungeons? Even in WoTLK, I seen this argument from players that didn't beat hardcore Lich King. So I get a little confused by what they mean by challenging. Because if you can't beat something, doesn't that make it a challenge? This is why I assume people are confusing the terms "Challegen" with the term "Time Sink".
matter of fact, I have another question for the people here. Is GUILD WARS 2, a more old school MMO, or new school MMO?
Dude, grow up!
Challenging to adults.. not kids. Nothing in WoW is as challenging as previous games before it. That is how (back in 2004) World of Warcraft got the name "carebear" from oldschool MMO gamers beta testing WoW. Because the game is incredibly dumb-down by the standards back then. Today, WoW is the bar in which all ignorance is measures.
So people who play WoW might assume that it's challenging because their young and playing new game and told these specific dungeons are harder than normal. That doesn't mean that the game is challenging, it just means THESE monsters are challenging. And that challenge is just a matter of deafeating a specific monster... that is as hard as the game will ever get.
Raids < do NOT = > challenging
Now, I am sure some raids may pose a challenge given the makeup of any given group. But I've been doing high-end raiding for 10 years... Oldschool player need more than monsters & raids as challenging content, & gameplay. The point that you bring World of Warcraft up, the point where you assume Challenging = Hardcore. Which implies your incapable of understanding how to challenge yourself, and instead think hardcore.
Most kids do not challenge themselves... at all.
That is why parents have to always proding behind them getting to do stuff (swim, dive off the board, jump in the deep end). Plus... a game with few instanced challenges, is NOT considered a challenging game...!
BTW if you think WoW raids are hard, or challenging... then your obvious one of the kids who doesn't understand how to challenge themselves. I run a household, run a business, and occasionally race cars, etc.. <-- I find all of that challenging day-to-day. I don't find reading up on a 50 man raid thats already been done 10,000 times as challenging...lol. Specially when everyone is wearing an item from this supposedly challenging beast.
It is nothing other than harder mob to kill. A few ultra-mobs in a game DOES NOT make the entire game challenging.
Adults want a challenging GAME...! (& are willing to pay for it)
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
And just 10 years ago, some 400,000 people were content with just being able to participate in the raid. Loot was just an added bonus.
Rose called. She wants her glasses back.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
TOR is the most RPG MMORPG the genre has ever seen.
Are you kidding? There is a set in stone story, a structure that players follow. The word play means unstructured. No one is playing anything. Ask 10000 TOR players to tell their game story and it all sounds the same. What are you high on? TOR is like reading a book with a bit of interactivity. TOR is a RAG, role adhering game, where you adhere to the story of your selected class without much freedom. And no running around in meaningless pvp is not role playing.
By your logic, the Final Fantasy games aren't RPGs either.
Opinions on the matter aside, a game with progression through a scripted narrative is just as much a roleplaying game as something like Ultima or Skyrim. You're 'developing an MMO' so it seems it might be worth it to open up to some of the views people have presented here instead of shouting down or insulting people when they say something that doesn't fit you preconceptions of what things are or should be.
Dude... Ultima Online only had one RACE... human. Yet we had elven forest that were guarded 24/7 by roleplayers playing elves.
Nothing in StarWars is open 360 degree content. BioWare went the ultra-cheap route with the game world & didn't leave ANYTHING open-ended. Thus, the entire game & story line are too linear! Giving little room to roleplay anything, or be different than anyone else.
The gameplay and zoned content are to restrictive for seasoned players & these game mechanics (limitations) make the game junk... (which almost everyone knows) and is only afloat due to it's STARWARS intellectual property. The game's mechanics are too restrictive, so SWTOR will be realigated to the bargain bin, as tons & tons of people try it..... while they wait for ArcheAge, GW2, etc..
Who see's themselves playing SWTOR for the next 5 years..?
PlanetSide2 and EverQuestNx will illustrate to you what oldschool gameplay was like (sandbox).
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
Challenging to adults.. not kids. Nothing in WoW is as challenging as previous games before it. That is how (back in 2004) World of Warcraft got the name "carebear" from oldschool MMO gamers beta testing WoW. Because the game is incredibly dumb-down by the standards back then. Today, WoW is the bar in which all ignorance is measures.
So people who play WoW might assume that it's challenging because their young and playing new game and told these specific dungeons are harder than normal. That doesn't mean that the game is challenging, it just means THESE monsters are challenging. And that challenge is just a matter of deafeating a specific monster... that is as hard as the game will ever get.
Raids < do NOT = > challenging
Now, I am sure some raids may pose a challenge given the makeup of any given group. But I've been doing high-end raiding for 10 years... Oldschool player need more than monsters & raids as challenging content, & gameplay. The point that you bring World of Warcraft up, the point where you assume Challenging = Hardcore. Which implies your incapable of understanding how to challenge yourself, and instead think hardcore.
Most kids do not challenge themselves... at all.
That is why parents have to always proding behind them getting to do stuff (swim, dive off the board, jump in the deep end). Plus... a game with few instanced challenges, is NOT considered a challenging game...!
BTW if you think WoW raids are hard, or challenging... then your obvious one of the kids who doesn't understand how to challenge themselves. I run a household, run a business, and occasionally race cars, etc.. <-- I find all of that challenging day-to-day. I don't find reading up on a 50 man raid thats already been done 10,000 times as challenging...lol. Specially when everyone is wearing an item from this supposedly challenging beast.
It is nothing other than harder mob to kill. A few ultra-mobs in a game DOES NOT make the entire game challenging.
Adults want a challenging GAME...! (& are willing to pay for it)
I always find these kinds of arguments baffling. I will readily concede that in the grand scheme of things video games are not really that challenging. In fact I primarily play video games so I can have simpler, more straightforward challenges than I exeprience in Real Life. However, on that scale there is no real difference between how challenging 'old school' and 'new school' games are. It is kind of silly to argue that 'new school' games are not challenging compared to Real Life when 'old school' games also lack that level of challenge.
I have the opposite view when it comes to the 'kid vs adult' comparisons. By their very nature 'old school' games seem more like 'kiddie games' to me since I was quite happy to play them when I was young but can no longer stomach them as an adult. As I grew older I lost patience with many of the annoyances of 'old school' hardcore gaming.
I actually consider raiding to be the last vestige of 'old school' MMORPGs. It's repetive and ultimately pointless 'make-work activity that I wish 'new school' games finally stop making their main focus.
me that when you people say WoW is "EASY" you mean the opposite of a challenge?
well if that's the case, than why is it, that most of these same players that complained about WoW being easy, never completed the Hard Core raid dungeons? Even in WoTLK, I seen this argument from players that didn't beat hardcore Lich King. So I get a little confused by what they mean by challenging. Because if you can't beat something, doesn't that make it a challenge?
Counting blades of grass on the lawn is easy, it's just not very fun. Most people never did the raid content in WOW because they don't find that content all that fun. Difficulty and challenge had nothing to do with it unless we are talking about the ability to tolerate the elitist attitudes prevalent in most raiding guilds - that's a challenge all its own.
Your statement is obviously NOT true. Difficulty has EVERYTHING to do with it. Two pieces of evidence.
1) Lots of QQing about difficulty of H dungeons when Cata was first released because they were MUCH harder than the WOTLK H dungeons.
2) Only 2% of players did Sunwell. Almost everyone does DS through LFR. LFR is immensely popular. That shows players want to raid, just not want the difficulty and hassle to organize in normal raiding.
Challenging to adults.. not kids. Nothing in WoW is as challenging as previous games before it. That is how (back in 2004) World of Warcraft got the name "carebear" from oldschool MMO gamers beta testing WoW. Because the game is incredibly dumb-down by the standards back then. Today, WoW is the bar in which all ignorance is measures.
So people who play WoW might assume that it's challenging because their young and playing new game and told these specific dungeons are harder than normal. That doesn't mean that the game is challenging, it just means THESE monsters are challenging. And that challenge is just a matter of deafeating a specific monster... that is as hard as the game will ever get.
Raids < do NOT = > challenging
Now, I am sure some raids may pose a challenge given the makeup of any given group. But I've been doing high-end raiding for 10 years... Oldschool player need more than monsters & raids as challenging content, & gameplay. The point that you bring World of Warcraft up, the point where you assume Challenging = Hardcore. Which implies your incapable of understanding how to challenge yourself, and instead think hardcore.
Most kids do not challenge themselves... at all.
That is why parents have to always proding behind them getting to do stuff (swim, dive off the board, jump in the deep end). Plus... a game with few instanced challenges, is NOT considered a challenging game...!
BTW if you think WoW raids are hard, or challenging... then your obvious one of the kids who doesn't understand how to challenge themselves. I run a household, run a business, and occasionally race cars, etc.. <-- I find all of that challenging day-to-day. I don't find reading up on a 50 man raid thats already been done 10,000 times as challenging...lol. Specially when everyone is wearing an item from this supposedly challenging beast.
It is nothing other than harder mob to kill. A few ultra-mobs in a game DOES NOT make the entire game challenging.
Adults want a challenging GAME...! (& are willing to pay for it)
I always find these kinds of arguments baffling. I will readily concede that in the grand scheme of things video games are not really that challenging. In fact I primarily play video games so I can have simpler, more straightforward challenges than I exeprience in Real Life. However, on that scale there is no real difference between how challenging 'old school' and 'new school' games are. It is kind of silly to argue that 'new school' games are not challenging compared to Real Life when 'old school' games also lack that level of challenge.
I have the opposite view when it comes to the 'kid vs adult' comparisons. By their very nature 'old school' games seem more like 'kiddie games' to me since I was quite happy to play them when I was young but can no longer stomach them as an adult. As I grew older I lost patience with many of the annoyances of 'old school' hardcore gaming.
I actually consider raiding to be the last vestige of 'old school' MMORPGs. It's repetive and ultimately pointless 'make-work activity that I wish 'new school' games finally stop making their main focus.
Your comments are absurd..!
Perhaps you just don't understand how challenging games were? Or, if U've ever had a taste of oldschool sauce? Seems to me like your inferring and questioning the difference betwwen todays MMO VS older ones.
So you clearly pit yourself against yourself. Not only that you don't even understand game mechanics and assume "oldschool" means raiding...?
How about no mini-map... can u play a game that is that challenging?
Uno(?) challenging on a personal level, to have to utilize your brain and remember how to get where you are going. Uno..? To have to commit to memory the game world you play in? To be completely left to YOUR OWN PERSONAL SKILLS to navigate the game world.
Probably too much of a challenge for you bro!
A mini-map is just one FISHER PRICE mechanic that is "easy-mode" and total carebear mechanic. I can endlessly name how easy these kiddie-arcade-mmo's have become. I am sure I am not alone.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
Comments
Gah!!!!!!
I was talking about how hard it was for us to field enough folks the other night in a thread. If a few folks didnt show for our guild raids, it meant we probably were going to have a bad night. Many a night we were trying PoP content with high 50s, and low 60s. We were always a couple expansions behind, and even with the 5 lvl increase it was still a bitch.
Getting flagged for Time basically destroyed the guilds spirit. We wiped in Plane of Water(?) numerous times, and that one of the little area thingy we actually had to team up with another guild eventually to get done. Sorry cant remember exactly....was about the time I startd getting prescribed Vicodins daily, and memory can be an issue at times.
Even for all the hard core time sinks I say I would never do again, I would love for EQ to go FTP so I could access my first MMO characters again. That said, there are still folks playing till this very day, and would not wanna see them lose out on SOE making more expansions.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
new school: getting a gold star from your 1st grade teacher
old school: getting a medal of honer from congress:)
both rewards for accomplishments, one is just more "meaningful" then the other.
Please don't use the Medal of Honor for a comparison to something done in a game.
hahaha nobody ever accuse SoE for not being self destructive:D
EQ1 could have been WoW except they keep shooting themselves in the feet:D had they not been such money grubbing arses and actually put out products that werent predictably/expectedly broken every 6 months trying to suck up as much money as possible, not as many people would have jumped to WoW to begin with and the domino effect of that paradyne shift is what made WoW the king of MMO's.
IMO it's unfortunate that current generation of gamers will never be able to experiance the grandure of scope and accomplishments that EQ1 was able to provide their playerbase. the comradery built over years of raiding super hard content isnt something that can be replaced by a 4 man group or 16 man raids.
the fact is people put up with the timesinks of EQ1 because the rewards it offered outweighted the "suffering" it's not a play style that young gamers can appreciate, and old gamers dont have as much time for anymore. BUT, while it shined, EQ1 will never be equaled in it's sense of accomplishment in providing the hardest raid content to ever come out in computer gaming history. friends made in EQ1 raids are often lasting friends that move on to other games together because they KNOW eachother as gamers and not some idiot 12 year old pewpew gimme ninja lewters:)
apologies.
in retorspect, it was poor taste.
I guess old school is more like reciving your diploma for your college degree:)
War games are poor taste full stop. There is such a thing as context no need to apologise. Old school is about not receiving a diploma its about studying because you enjoy the subject
new school is about only studying if you get diplomas every week.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
No its not. I prefer new school because they are better games. I don't care about rewards, I play them because they're fun. More fun than old school games many of which feel like they are your second job you have to pay for.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
That is not the reality though, modern games are all about the reward/achievments. I wouldnt play a game that feels like a job, That means the game does not suit your favoured gameplay style.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
So is new school all about rewards and achievements, or not? You kinda go against your statement there.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
As i said old school was not about the rewards, new school is.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
The one thing i dont like would be how the game is always centered about End game and not the journey, Games where you can enjoy the leveling regardless of what level you are really work for me. Right now we just rush to end game and do the same old raids and gear progressions. This only works when the pvp is a huge part of the game. A game where it takes a while to level ( not somethin like decade but lets say 1 year as a casual). Only problem would be the fact that it will be very dependant on the number of people playing. If they create a very group dependent game where level progression is not as important as it is atm it would be pretty awesome.
Rewards don't make people play bad games.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I dont think that was the point i was originally responding to.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Same here. Most MMOs are entertainment for me, not some kind of proving ground or self-worth affirmation app.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Are there many MMOs where dailies are mandatory, or are you saying that the presence of the daily events created a certain sense of urgency or need that wouldn't have been there before?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The entertainment comes from the constant rewards. Would you play a newschool game without leveling up or getting new raid gear? Would you raid if they took out the phat l00tz? Would you raid the same raids over 10 times if it weren't to get that last bit of phat l00tz? If not you are a liar.
New school games ARE ALL ABOUT REWARDS. That is the entire basis for game play.
The whole reason they are "more fun" is because of the way they set up their reward schedule.
they dont have to be, for me I always liked the teamplay of the raiding, to build up the raid, help each other to get stronger so you can get the next dragon down, now the past 2-3 years in EQ2 almost everyone act like what you describe "I NEED THIS I NEED THAT" or my time is wasted, which have made me more and more against raiding - and finally quitted EQ2 afew months back, even though it have annoyed me to no end for years that attitude.
it is all about how you percieve things...the phat loot to me always were nothing but the "invisable" key to unlock the next stage in the game - which become rather pointless to do now when everything is instanced anyway, and atleast in EQ2 you already are way overpowered for most things anyway, due to the loot over dose - but actually is one thing I love about Entropia at the moment, the items you get will never grow old, it all depends on what you are going to hunt, so you have to plan what you want to hunt, what to wear and what weapons you want to bring - as everything is equal to real money it is even important to think of what you can afford to hunt or craft, think Id still prefer the economy to not be connected to RL money thought but rather ensure that the money in the game world would be limited, so you still had to make this sort of thoughts.....what can I afford to do, if I fail hours of hardwork is waiting ahead which would mean = most would just quit calling the game a 2nd job ofc
Dude, grow up!
Challenging to adults.. not kids. Nothing in WoW is as challenging as previous games before it. That is how (back in 2004) World of Warcraft got the name "carebear" from oldschool MMO gamers beta testing WoW. Because the game is incredibly dumb-down by the standards back then. Today, WoW is the bar in which all ignorance is measures.
So people who play WoW might assume that it's challenging because their young and playing new game and told these specific dungeons are harder than normal. That doesn't mean that the game is challenging, it just means THESE monsters are challenging. And that challenge is just a matter of deafeating a specific monster... that is as hard as the game will ever get.
Raids < do NOT = > challenging
Now, I am sure some raids may pose a challenge given the makeup of any given group. But I've been doing high-end raiding for 10 years... Oldschool player need more than monsters & raids as challenging content, & gameplay. The point that you bring World of Warcraft up, the point where you assume Challenging = Hardcore. Which implies your incapable of understanding how to challenge yourself, and instead think hardcore.
Most kids do not challenge themselves... at all.
That is why parents have to always proding behind them getting to do stuff (swim, dive off the board, jump in the deep end). Plus... a game with few instanced challenges, is NOT considered a challenging game...!
BTW if you think WoW raids are hard, or challenging... then your obvious one of the kids who doesn't understand how to challenge themselves. I run a household, run a business, and occasionally race cars, etc.. <-- I find all of that challenging day-to-day. I don't find reading up on a 50 man raid thats already been done 10,000 times as challenging...lol. Specially when everyone is wearing an item from this supposedly challenging beast.
It is nothing other than harder mob to kill. A few ultra-mobs in a game DOES NOT make the entire game challenging.
Adults want a challenging GAME...! (& are willing to pay for it)
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
Rose called. She wants her glasses back.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Dude... Ultima Online only had one RACE... human. Yet we had elven forest that were guarded 24/7 by roleplayers playing elves.
Nothing in StarWars is open 360 degree content. BioWare went the ultra-cheap route with the game world & didn't leave ANYTHING open-ended. Thus, the entire game & story line are too linear! Giving little room to roleplay anything, or be different than anyone else.
The gameplay and zoned content are to restrictive for seasoned players & these game mechanics (limitations) make the game junk... (which almost everyone knows) and is only afloat due to it's STARWARS intellectual property. The game's mechanics are too restrictive, so SWTOR will be realigated to the bargain bin, as tons & tons of people try it..... while they wait for ArcheAge, GW2, etc..
Who see's themselves playing SWTOR for the next 5 years..?
PlanetSide2 and EverQuestNx will illustrate to you what oldschool gameplay was like (sandbox).
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
I always find these kinds of arguments baffling. I will readily concede that in the grand scheme of things video games are not really that challenging. In fact I primarily play video games so I can have simpler, more straightforward challenges than I exeprience in Real Life. However, on that scale there is no real difference between how challenging 'old school' and 'new school' games are. It is kind of silly to argue that 'new school' games are not challenging compared to Real Life when 'old school' games also lack that level of challenge.
I have the opposite view when it comes to the 'kid vs adult' comparisons. By their very nature 'old school' games seem more like 'kiddie games' to me since I was quite happy to play them when I was young but can no longer stomach them as an adult. As I grew older I lost patience with many of the annoyances of 'old school' hardcore gaming.
I actually consider raiding to be the last vestige of 'old school' MMORPGs. It's repetive and ultimately pointless 'make-work activity that I wish 'new school' games finally stop making their main focus.
Your statement is obviously NOT true. Difficulty has EVERYTHING to do with it. Two pieces of evidence.
1) Lots of QQing about difficulty of H dungeons when Cata was first released because they were MUCH harder than the WOTLK H dungeons.
2) Only 2% of players did Sunwell. Almost everyone does DS through LFR. LFR is immensely popular. That shows players want to raid, just not want the difficulty and hassle to organize in normal raiding.
Your comments are absurd..!
Perhaps you just don't understand how challenging games were? Or, if U've ever had a taste of oldschool sauce? Seems to me like your inferring and questioning the difference betwwen todays MMO VS older ones.
So you clearly pit yourself against yourself. Not only that you don't even understand game mechanics and assume "oldschool" means raiding...?
How about no mini-map... can u play a game that is that challenging?
Uno(?) challenging on a personal level, to have to utilize your brain and remember how to get where you are going. Uno..? To have to commit to memory the game world you play in? To be completely left to YOUR OWN PERSONAL SKILLS to navigate the game world.
Probably too much of a challenge for you bro!
A mini-map is just one FISHER PRICE mechanic that is "easy-mode" and total carebear mechanic. I can endlessly name how easy these kiddie-arcade-mmo's have become. I am sure I am not alone.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon