How about no mini-map... can u play a game that is that challenging?
Uno(?) challenging on a personal level, to have to utilize your brain and remember how to get where you are going. Uno..? To have to commit to memory the game world you play in? To be completely left to YOUR OWN PERSONAL SKILLS to navigate the game world.
Probably too much of a challenge for you bro!
A mini-map is just one FISHER PRICE mechanic that is "easy-mode" and total carebear mechanic. I can endlessly name how easy these kiddie-arcade-mmo's have become. I am sure I am not alone.
ahh good old lvl 1 erudite necro lost in tox forest at night:D you are blind, no sense heading, and are KOS everywhere so you cant even buy/sell stuff so your mana regen very slow cuz of no food:D
it's funny now, but damn back in the day it was annoying as hell:D
How about no mini-map... can u play a game that is that challenging?
Uno(?) challenging on a personal level, to have to utilize your brain and remember how to get where you are going. Uno..? To have to commit to memory the game world you play in? To be completely left to YOUR OWN PERSONAL SKILLS to navigate the game world.
Probably too much of a challenge for you bro!
A mini-map is just one FISHER PRICE mechanic that is "easy-mode" and total carebear mechanic. I can endlessly name how easy these kiddie-arcade-mmo's have become. I am sure I am not alone.
ahh good old lvl 1 erudite necro lost in tox forest at night:D you are blind, no sense heading, and are KOS everywhere so you cant even buy/sell stuff so your mana regen very slow cuz of no food:D
it's funny now, but damn back in the day it was annoying as hell:D
This^^
And YOU would fair better, if you'd have trained up/used your Sense Heading ...
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
new school heroic fights are just as difficult as old school fights where the same nunber of players are involved. People have not fundementally become more intelligent in 15 years, so where new fights are more technical, mods are more advanced to compensate. Note 'non heroic' normal mode is much much much MUCH easier than old school.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
new school heroic fights are just as difficult as old school fights where the same nunber of players are involved. People have not fundementally become more intelligent in 15 years, so where new fights are more technical, mods are more advanced to compensate. Note 'non heroic' normal mode is much much much MUCH easier than old school.
difficulty of fight for new school vs old school
old school, 6 players vs 1 trash mob
new school 1 player vs 6 trash mobs:D
i suppose you can call that equal level of difficulty, but definately not the same type of difficulty.
new school heroic fights are just as difficult as old school fights where the same nunber of players are involved. People have not fundementally become more intelligent in 15 years, so where new fights are more technical, mods are more advanced to compensate. Note 'non heroic' normal mode is much much much MUCH easier than old school.
difficulty of fight for new school vs old school
old school, 6 players vs 1 trash mob
new school 1 player vs 6 trash mobs:D
i suppose you can call that equal level of difficulty, but definately not the same type of difficulty.
not really accurate or helpful, and im a firm old school fan. Raiding you dont get 6v1. The rest ofc including 5 -10 man instance stuff is not in the same ballpark. Premium to premium is comparable ofc, unless you think humans are now much more intelligent than before :P
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
There isn't much of a "new school" around at all. The mechanics have been more or less the same since 1996 and the only real difference is that the games have gotten more cocus on gear and less focus on leveling, and that happened over 5 years ago.
The whole problem with MMOs is that there isn't a new school at all. They just recycle the same thing over and over.
You could take any MMO player who started the last year and he still could play Meridian 59 from early 1996 without any problems with just a 5 minutes tutorial.
We need that new school now, a game that doesn't feel like all the rest but with a different skin.
Yeah, there have been a few games that tried to change things, UO, SWG and Eve are the most famous but they never got any competent games following in their footsteps.
Challenging to adults.. not kids. Nothing in WoW is as challenging as previous games before it. That is how (back in 2004) World of Warcraft got the name "carebear" from oldschool MMO gamers beta testing WoW. Because the game is incredibly dumb-down by the standards back then. Today, WoW is the bar in which all ignorance is measures.
So people who play WoW might assume that it's challenging because their young and playing new game and told these specific dungeons are harder than normal. That doesn't mean that the game is challenging, it just means THESE monsters are challenging. And that challenge is just a matter of deafeating a specific monster... that is as hard as the game will ever get.
Raids < do NOT = > challenging
Now, I am sure some raids may pose a challenge given the makeup of any given group. But I've been doing high-end raiding for 10 years... Oldschool player need more than monsters & raids as challenging content, & gameplay. The point that you bring World of Warcraft up, the point where you assume Challenging = Hardcore. Which implies your incapable of understanding how to challenge yourself, and instead think hardcore.
Most kids do not challenge themselves... at all.
That is why parents have to always proding behind them getting to do stuff (swim, dive off the board, jump in the deep end). Plus... a game with few instanced challenges, is NOT considered a challenging game...!
BTW if you think WoW raids are hard, or challenging... then your obvious one of the kids who doesn't understand how to challenge themselves. I run a household, run a business, and occasionally race cars, etc.. <-- I find all of that challenging day-to-day. I don't find reading up on a 50 man raid thats already been done 10,000 times as challenging...lol. Specially when everyone is wearing an item from this supposedly challenging beast.
It is nothing other than harder mob to kill. A few ultra-mobs in a game DOES NOT make the entire game challenging.
Adults want a challenging GAME...! (& are willing to pay for it
Most people define challenging in terms of something which takes skill to accomplish.
Early MMORPGs were often not about skill so much as perserverance in adversity. Adversity being tedium (timesinks) or hassles (crappy UIs.)
These are not the types of challenges actual adults want. They want something where skill is rewarded. WOW raids certainly provide that, though it's fair to criticize the leveling part of WOW for not being tailored to each individual as it should be.
To say raids aren't challenging is completely wrong though. Both knowing/forming a strategy and executing it (in other words: skill) are crucial to beating tougher raid bosses. The only criticism WOW deserves is that this same level of strategy and execution isn't required during leveling -- but to be fair, leveling isn't really a huge part of the game.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You can make a case for early MMORPGs being great Worlds, but you can't really make a case for them being geat Games.
THIS. So much.
I started playing MMOs with the launch of the original EverQuest. As a virtual world, it was interesting. I liked it, and liked fitting my character into the world around her. As a game, however, it sucked balls. It took FOREVER to accomplish anything or get anywhere. It wasn't fun.
Early expansions of EQ started trying to alleviate the time sinks, like adding the PoK books, and the instanced dungeons with LDoN, but it wasn't enough. The game itself was what was wrong with EverQuest. It was a neat world, but after 3+ years in it, I had to find something else that was more interesting to play. I was tired of the mechanics of the game world and needed something new.
I went through a bunch of early MMOs -- SWG, Anarchy Online, Earth & Beyond, DAoC, Asheron's Call, etc., and none of them felt like great GAMES until I got to City of Heroes. CoH was quick, intuitive, fun, and it was the first time I could remember an MMO being a fun game just for the sake of being a game. It didn't have any of the meaningless timesinks and slow downs that previous MMOs did. It wasn't a fantasy world with elves and dwarves. It was new and unique for the time. I stuck with it for far longer than I ever played EQ.
I've gone through other games since leaving CoH, like WAR, AoC, WoW and EQ2, and while they each have their strengths and weaknesses, none of them really got me to stay longer than a few months. I stopped playing MMOs altogether when I started graduate school in August 2010. I'll be done in May 2012, so I can start gaming again.
These days, I couldn't go back to the "old school" virtual world style MMOs of the past. For me, that was a long time ago. It's in the past and I've changed as a gamer. I don't need a virtual world anymore. I just need to have fun and blow off steam in a fun, interesting setting. I'd rather get together with a group of friends and run through an interesting game.
not really accurate or helpful, and im a firm old school fan. Raiding you dont get 6v1. The rest ofc including 5 -10 man instance stuff is not in the same ballpark. Premium to premium is comparable ofc, unless you think humans are now much more intelligent than before :P
well... when i said 1v6 and 6v1 I was referring to "group" content. modern day group content is so "simplified" there really isn't much reason to consider strategy. just zerg and spank will do the job 95% of the time. old school group content at least give you pause to consider is it possible to split the pull? or how to handle the adds if things go wrong:) nowadays, even healers can tank 2 or 3 mobs w/o the tank noticing something is wrong:D
IMO there aren't any REAL raid content in modern MMO's. I don't consider 20man a raid, i consider it a small skirmish. something to do for kicks while you are waiting for the rest of the raid to log on. a REAL raid require HIGH level of organization and cooperation, not something that is possible in a PUG. raiders MUST know that they can depend on the other people in the raid and vise versa.
sure there are challanging fights in modern MMO's. but nothing the old schoolers havent seen thousands of times before.
not really accurate or helpful, and im a firm old school fan. Raiding you dont get 6v1. The rest ofc including 5 -10 man instance stuff is not in the same ballpark. Premium to premium is comparable ofc, unless you think humans are now much more intelligent than before :P
well... when i said 1v6 and 6v1 I was referring to "group" content. modern day group content is so "simplified" there really isn't much reason to consider strategy. just zerg and spank will do the job 95% of the time. old school group content at least give you pause to consider is it possible to split the pull? or how to handle the adds if things go wrong:) nowadays, even healers can tank 2 or 3 mobs w/o the tank noticing something is wrong:D
IMO there aren't any REAL raid content in modern MMO's. I don't consider 20man a raid, i consider it a small skirmish. something to do for kicks while you are waiting for the rest of the raid to log on. a REAL raid require HIGH level of organization and cooperation, not something that is possible in a PUG. raiders MUST know that they can depend on the other people in the raid and vise versa.
sure there are challanging fights in modern MMO's. but nothing the old schoolers havent seen thousands of times before.
Challenging to adults.. not kids. Nothing in WoW is as challenging as previous games before it. That is how (back in 2004) World of Warcraft got the name "carebear" from oldschool MMO gamers beta testing WoW. Because the game is incredibly dumb-down by the standards back then. Today, WoW is the bar in which all ignorance is measures.
So people who play WoW might assume that it's challenging because their young and playing new game and told these specific dungeons are harder than normal. That doesn't mean that the game is challenging, it just means THESE monsters are challenging. And that challenge is just a matter of deafeating a specific monster... that is as hard as the game will ever get.
Raids < do NOT = > challenging
Now, I am sure some raids may pose a challenge given the makeup of any given group. But I've been doing high-end raiding for 10 years... Oldschool player need more than monsters & raids as challenging content, & gameplay. The point that you bring World of Warcraft up, the point where you assume Challenging = Hardcore. Which implies your incapable of understanding how to challenge yourself, and instead think hardcore.
Most kids do not challenge themselves... at all.
That is why parents have to always proding behind them getting to do stuff (swim, dive off the board, jump in the deep end). Plus... a game with few instanced challenges, is NOT considered a challenging game...!
BTW if you think WoW raids are hard, or challenging... then your obvious one of the kids who doesn't understand how to challenge themselves. I run a household, run a business, and occasionally race cars, etc.. <-- I find all of that challenging day-to-day. I don't find reading up on a 50 man raid thats already been done 10,000 times as challenging...lol. Specially when everyone is wearing an item from this supposedly challenging beast.
It is nothing other than harder mob to kill. A few ultra-mobs in a game DOES NOT make the entire game challenging.
Adults want a challenging GAME...! (& are willing to pay for it
Most people define challenging in terms of something which takes skill to accomplish.
Early MMORPGs were often not about skill so much as perserverance in adversity. Adversity being tedium (timesinks) or hassles (crappy UIs.)
These are not the types of challenges actual adults want. They want something where skill is rewarded. WOW raids certainly provide that, though it's fair to criticize the leveling part of WOW for not being tailored to each individual as it should be.
To say raids aren't challenging is completely wrong though. Both knowing/forming a strategy and executing it (in other words: skill) are crucial to beating tougher raid bosses. The only criticism WOW deserves is that this same level of strategy and execution isn't required during leveling -- but to be fair, leveling isn't really a huge part of the game.
Patience and perseverance in the face of adversity are actually measures by which humans are frequently judged and admired for having such traits so it makes sense that it carries through to MMO's as well. Not all skill/talent relates to quickness of hand.
As to raiding, there's nothing really different about old school raids vs newer ones such as in a game like WOW. It's really all just learning and memorizing the dance steps that the developers programmed into the encounter and then executing them properly.
The process hasn't changed over the years, and while newer MMO's have more dance steps to deal with, look at the interface mods they require to properly accomplish (and the amount of precision gearing/preparation that has to be done to complete the fight.
I recall old school Lineage 2 and DAOC dragon raids that I never managed to defeat, and few people on the server ever did. Not much like that in modern MMO's except for the absolute top level raid encounter which the Dev's just jack up the difficulty until they decide to let people beat the encounter.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
new school heroic fights are just as difficult as old school fights where the same nunber of players are involved. People have not fundementally become more intelligent in 15 years, so where new fights are more technical, mods are more advanced to compensate. Note 'non heroic' normal mode is much much much MUCH easier than old school.
Again.... people have no clue of what they speak about. In todays combat mechanics there is only a few "hooks" into your character.. so combat is not deeper.
Everquest for example had levitate as an engine mechanic... the character hook alone open up endless possibilities and solutions. Not possible on cheaper engines that don't have such "hooks". How many other MMORPG can you disarm your opponent..?
In 15 years you've had business men replace enthusiasts @ making MMORPG.. so these business men have never known... so they cannot forget how much deeper older games actually were. Not only that, but the developmnet team they put together, would typically be of young adults who themselves, have no clue what older games even had....
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
Challenging to adults.. not kids. Nothing in WoW is as challenging as previous games before it. That is how (back in 2004) World of Warcraft got the name "carebear" from oldschool MMO gamers beta testing WoW. Because the game is incredibly dumb-down by the standards back then. Today, WoW is the bar in which all ignorance is measures.
So people who play WoW might assume that it's challenging because their young and playing new game and told these specific dungeons are harder than normal. That doesn't mean that the game is challenging, it just means THESE monsters are challenging. And that challenge is just a matter of deafeating a specific monster... that is as hard as the game will ever get.
Raids < do NOT = > challenging
Now, I am sure some raids may pose a challenge given the makeup of any given group. But I've been doing high-end raiding for 10 years... Oldschool player need more than monsters & raids as challenging content, & gameplay. The point that you bring World of Warcraft up, the point where you assume Challenging = Hardcore. Which implies your incapable of understanding how to challenge yourself, and instead think hardcore.
Most kids do not challenge themselves... at all.
That is why parents have to always proding behind them getting to do stuff (swim, dive off the board, jump in the deep end). Plus... a game with few instanced challenges, is NOT considered a challenging game...!
BTW if you think WoW raids are hard, or challenging... then your obvious one of the kids who doesn't understand how to challenge themselves. I run a household, run a business, and occasionally race cars, etc.. <-- I find all of that challenging day-to-day. I don't find reading up on a 50 man raid thats already been done 10,000 times as challenging...lol. Specially when everyone is wearing an item from this supposedly challenging beast.
It is nothing other than harder mob to kill. A few ultra-mobs in a game DOES NOT make the entire game challenging.
Adults want a challenging GAME...! (& are willing to pay for it
Most people define challenging in terms of something which takes skill to accomplish.
Early MMORPGs were often not about skill so much as perserverance in adversity. Adversity being tedium (timesinks) or hassles (crappy UIs.)
These are not the types of challenges actual adults want. They want something where skill is rewarded. WOW raids certainly provide that, though it's fair to criticize the leveling part of WOW for not being tailored to each individual as it should be.
To say raids aren't challenging is completely wrong though. Both knowing/forming a strategy and executing it (in other words: skill) are crucial to beating tougher raid bosses. The only criticism WOW deserves is that this same level of strategy and execution isn't required during leveling -- but to be fair, leveling isn't really a huge part of the game.
Sorry...
Anything that a typical normal 14 year old can do.. isn't challenging to a 42 year old adult, whom has tackled much harder raids in their day.
Not even sure if some of you are aware that some olden raids took 6~8 hours before you even got to the main mob.. and then you can totoally wipe and spend the next 2 days getting corpses out. Doing this is not hard (to sit @ keyboard and press buttons), but it takes perserverence & goal setting with like minded individuals to accoimplish things.
Now (today) it^ is all given away in armor sets, because those developers don't want to hurt the fragile egoes of the children growing up today.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
not really accurate or helpful, and im a firm old school fan. Raiding you dont get 6v1. The rest ofc including 5 -10 man instance stuff is not in the same ballpark. Premium to premium is comparable ofc, unless you think humans are now much more intelligent than before :P
well... when i said 1v6 and 6v1 I was referring to "group" content. modern day group content is so "simplified" there really isn't much reason to consider strategy. just zerg and spank will do the job 95% of the time. old school group content at least give you pause to consider is it possible to split the pull? or how to handle the adds if things go wrong:) nowadays, even healers can tank 2 or 3 mobs w/o the tank noticing something is wrong:D
IMO there aren't any REAL raid content in modern MMO's. I don't consider 20man a raid, i consider it a small skirmish. something to do for kicks while you are waiting for the rest of the raid to log on. a REAL raid require HIGH level of organization and cooperation, not something that is possible in a PUG. raiders MUST know that they can depend on the other people in the raid and vise versa.
sure there are challanging fights in modern MMO's. but nothing the old schoolers havent seen thousands of times before.
I love you.
I pretty much agree with what your saying, but i am not referring to the 95% trivial rubbish that wow pumps out that can be zerged, I am referring to the premium content - e.g Lich Hard mode 25, Anub 25 hard mode etc before any nerfs + achievments with limited tries per week. If this was old school, and 25 man (to make a fair comparison) it would be just as difficult (although i agree the route to get to that boss is joke now with pathetic trash). Consider, you do indeed have 25 * 30-40 year olds playing, with 20 years experience per player - it has to be difficult to challenge that level of player. For example, nowadays I would raid with perhaps 15 macros and actions all bound so I can react within 150 ms for any of those, reacting in some encounters too slowly, even 1/2 a second is a wipe.
But on the whole these fights are not the norm, and nerfed over time, which is the difference between old and new school - in old school you sucked it up and learned or failed. There is no nerf in 6 weeks. Old school was much more interesting and harder.
for 14 year olds - thats where normal mode + nerfs comes into play, blizzard fail.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Challenging to adults.. not kids. Nothing in WoW is as challenging as previous games before it. That is how (back in 2004) World of Warcraft got the name "carebear" from oldschool MMO gamers beta testing WoW. Because the game is incredibly dumb-down by the standards back then. Today, WoW is the bar in which all ignorance is measures.
So people who play WoW might assume that it's challenging because their young and playing new game and told these specific dungeons are harder than normal. That doesn't mean that the game is challenging, it just means THESE monsters are challenging. And that challenge is just a matter of deafeating a specific monster... that is as hard as the game will ever get.
Raids < do NOT = > challenging
Now, I am sure some raids may pose a challenge given the makeup of any given group. But I've been doing high-end raiding for 10 years... Oldschool player need more than monsters & raids as challenging content, & gameplay. The point that you bring World of Warcraft up, the point where you assume Challenging = Hardcore. Which implies your incapable of understanding how to challenge yourself, and instead think hardcore.
Most kids do not challenge themselves... at all.
That is why parents have to always proding behind them getting to do stuff (swim, dive off the board, jump in the deep end). Plus... a game with few instanced challenges, is NOT considered a challenging game...!
BTW if you think WoW raids are hard, or challenging... then your obvious one of the kids who doesn't understand how to challenge themselves. I run a household, run a business, and occasionally race cars, etc.. <-- I find all of that challenging day-to-day. I don't find reading up on a 50 man raid thats already been done 10,000 times as challenging...lol. Specially when everyone is wearing an item from this supposedly challenging beast.
It is nothing other than harder mob to kill. A few ultra-mobs in a game DOES NOT make the entire game challenging.
Adults want a challenging GAME...! (& are willing to pay for it
Most people define challenging in terms of something which takes skill to accomplish.
Early MMORPGs were often not about skill so much as perserverance in adversity. Adversity being tedium (timesinks) or hassles (crappy UIs.)
These are not the types of challenges actual adults want. They want something where skill is rewarded. WOW raids certainly provide that, though it's fair to criticize the leveling part of WOW for not being tailored to each individual as it should be.
To say raids aren't challenging is completely wrong though. Both knowing/forming a strategy and executing it (in other words: skill) are crucial to beating tougher raid bosses. The only criticism WOW deserves is that this same level of strategy and execution isn't required during leveling -- but to be fair, leveling isn't really a huge part of the game.
Sorry...
Anything that a typical normal 14 year old can do.. isn't challenging to a 42 year old adult, whom has tackled much harder raids in their day.
Not even sure if some of you are aware that some olden raids took 6~8 hours before you even got to the main mob.. and then you can totoally wipe and spend the next 2 days getting corpses out. Doing this is not hard (to sit @ keyboard and press buttons), but it takes perserverence & goal setting with like minded individuals to accoimplish things.
Now (today) it^ is all given away in armor sets, because those developers don't want to hurt the fragile egoes of the children growing up today.
Or maybe it's not character flaws on the partof developers and today's gamers. Maybe the people who had 6-8 hours to do nothing other than wait for one mob to appear and then another 3-4 hours to fight that one mob simply enjoyed a different type of perseverence in the face of adversity than most of the gamers do today.
This isn't an age thing. It's not a laziness thing. It's not an instant gratification thing. The truth is, for most people, waiting in line isn't a challenge or a hardcore experience. It's simply waiting in line - and there are many more entertaining things that people feel they could be doing with their leisure activitry, espeicially people that don't have 4 hours to do any one activity, let alone stand in line for four hours to go do it.
"Anything that a typical normal 14 year old can do.. isn't challenging to a 42 year old adult, whom has tackled much harder raids in their day."
I'm a 42-year old adult, as well, but I'm not about to waggle my cane at today's gamers when I can put just as much effort into trying to understand them.. Feel free to keep on about fragile egos and 14-year olds, though.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I could argue a boss fight where 80 players zerg the boss down over 5 hours is hard. The counter argument would be tedium does not equal difficulty.
I could argue technical boss fights where you must learn how to dance with a boss is hard. The counter argument being a game of memory is not difficult.
A boss that if not downed in 30 seconds will butt rape could be difficult. then someone will counter with loading up on nothing but burst DPS is not hard.
A boss that behaves randomly (maybe he will AOE, maybe not, maybe spawn 1 add, perhaps 50 adds, etc) could be difficult, but someone will argue that boss depends on pure luck. not skill.
Anything that a typical normal 14 year old can do.. isn't challenging to a 42 year old adult, whom has tackled much harder raids in their day.
Not even sure if some of you are aware that some olden raids took 6~8 hours before you even got to the main mob.. and then you can totoally wipe and spend the next 2 days getting corpses out. Doing this is not hard (to sit @ keyboard and press buttons), but it takes perserverence & goal setting with like minded individuals to accoimplish things.
Now (today) it^ is all given away in armor sets, because those developers don't want to hurt the fragile egoes of the children growing up today.
One man's perserverance is another man's lunacy.
When a new hyped up movie or game comes up, you often get people who will camp for hours or even days to be one of the first to get a ticket or game copy. They show great perserverence and ocus on their goal. I on the other hand wait a day and spend about five minutes getting pretty much the same value. To them I might seem lazy and unmotivated but to me they just seem like a bunch of idiots.
I am of the 'work smart, not hard' school of thought so I really do not value pointless perseverence much. 6-8 hour raids to me seem like really bad design since there is not much point in stretching things out like that unless you are just testing simple endurance. It means that there was no smart way to beat the content faster without needless repetition.
How about no mini-map... can u play a game that is that challenging?
Uno(?) challenging on a personal level, to have to utilize your brain and remember how to get where you are going. Uno..? To have to commit to memory the game world you play in? To be completely left to YOUR OWN PERSONAL SKILLS to navigate the game world.
Probably too much of a challenge for you bro!
A mini-map is just one FISHER PRICE mechanic that is "easy-mode" and total carebear mechanic. I can endlessly name how easy these kiddie-arcade-mmo's have become. I am sure I am not alone.
ahh good old lvl 1 erudite necro lost in tox forest at night:D you are blind, no sense heading, and are KOS everywhere so you cant even buy/sell stuff so your mana regen very slow cuz of no food:D
it's funny now, but damn back in the day it was annoying as hell:D
This^^
And YOU would fair better, if you'd have trained up/used your Sense Heading ...
Sure. But the point is that i should not have to. This is just an artificial road-block to frustrate the player without adding much fun. There is tons of bad design like this in the early days of EQ. Sitting with a spellbook for 10 min is the worst offender.
I am of the 'work smart, not hard' school of thought so I really do not value pointless perseverence much. 6-8 hour raids to me seem like really bad design since there is not much point in stretching things out like that unless you are just testing simple endurance. It means that there was no smart way to beat the content faster without needless repetition.
Yeh. Very bad design.
In fact, Blizz is redesigning the early wow dungeons to be shorter. No one needs a 5 hr dungeon run.
In fact, hard mode raid is hard in WOW but never long. If you can do it, you kill the boss in 10 min. But most people can wipe after wipe. That is the measurement of challenge .. whehter you can do it or not .. not if you have 10 hrs to burn on it.
I dont agree with the old schoolers view of community. Both old and new have healthy communities for those who want it. That said, to be frank, anyone who ever gave serious consideration to playing WoW let alone actually playing it, is as far as I am concerned not an 'old school' as I view the term.
To me you have two different types of gamers. Gamers who play the system of the game to win and those who want to be in a virtual world. For those intrested in a virtual world WoW graphics simply cause way to much of a mental barrier to be taken seriously at that level.
other aspects of virtual world players involve, traveling should feel like its a good distance and that planning is actually required, the best goals are goals that require help from others and the like, basically things similar to real life oh and yeah like in real life, cant realistially be played casually.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Anything that a typical normal 14 year old can do.. isn't challenging to a 42 year old adult, whom has tackled much harder raids in their day.
Not even sure if some of you are aware that some olden raids took 6~8 hours before you even got to the main mob.. and then you can totoally wipe and spend the next 2 days getting corpses out. Doing this is not hard (to sit @ keyboard and press buttons), but it takes perserverence & goal setting with like minded individuals to accoimplish things.
Now (today) it^ is all given away in armor sets, because those developers don't want to hurt the fragile egoes of the children growing up today.
It's great that you enjoy perseverance in the face of a game being adverse to you.
But that's not challenge, nor does it really require skill (just time.)
Guess who has more free time? The 14 year old.
Most adult gamers actually feel the exact opposite of what you're stating here. Anyone can waste a bunch of time persevering in a game with timesinks and tedium, but only a skilled player will beat a genuinely difficult encounter.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Anything that a typical normal 14 year old can do.. isn't challenging to a 42 year old adult, whom has tackled much harder raids in their day.
Not even sure if some of you are aware that some olden raids took 6~8 hours before you even got to the main mob.. and then you can totoally wipe and spend the next 2 days getting corpses out. Doing this is not hard (to sit @ keyboard and press buttons), but it takes perserverence & goal setting with like minded individuals to accoimplish things.
Now (today) it^ is all given away in armor sets, because those developers don't want to hurt the fragile egoes of the children growing up today.
It's great that you enjoy perseverance in the face of a game being adverse to you.
But that's not challenge, nor does it really require skill (just time.)
Guess who has more free time? The 14 year old.
Most adult gamers actually feel the exact opposite of what you're stating here. Anyone can waste a bunch of time persevering in a game with timesinks and tedium, but only a skilled player will beat a genuinely difficult encounter.
That is an arcade style gaming mindset. Its a valid mindset but its not how RPG work.
plus, to be honest, if you want to be good at twitch skills you still have to put in the time and practice its not like god is going to instantly bless you with a the skills for a win, in any context.
That all said, like I say in an RPG you play a character and like in real life, to be good at something requires a grind, thus your character grinds.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Patience and perseverance in the face of adversity are actually measures by which humans are frequently judged and admired for having such traits so it makes sense that it carries through to MMO's as well. Not all skill/talent relates to quickness of hand.
As to raiding, there's nothing really different about old school raids vs newer ones such as in a game like WOW. It's really all just learning and memorizing the dance steps that the developers programmed into the encounter and then executing them properly.
The process hasn't changed over the years, and while newer MMO's have more dance steps to deal with, look at the interface mods they require to properly accomplish (and the amount of precision gearing/preparation that has to be done to complete the fight.
I recall old school Lineage 2 and DAOC dragon raids that I never managed to defeat, and few people on the server ever did. Not much like that in modern MMO's except for the absolute top level raid encounter which the Dev's just jack up the difficulty until they decide to let people beat the encounter.
Patience being a virtue doesn't make it a challenge. It doesn't make it difficult or hard, it only makes it take a long time.
I don't think anyone's going to call a zero-dance-step 15 minute fight challenging just because it takes long.
Meanwhile any fight where it's all about the dance steps and the margin for error is small is obviously the textbook definition of challenge -- without skill you'll fail.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Patience and perseverance in the face of adversity are actually measures by which humans are frequently judged and admired for having such traits so it makes sense that it carries through to MMO's as well. Not all skill/talent relates to quickness of hand.
As to raiding, there's nothing really different about old school raids vs newer ones such as in a game like WOW. It's really all just learning and memorizing the dance steps that the developers programmed into the encounter and then executing them properly.
The process hasn't changed over the years, and while newer MMO's have more dance steps to deal with, look at the interface mods they require to properly accomplish (and the amount of precision gearing/preparation that has to be done to complete the fight.
I recall old school Lineage 2 and DAOC dragon raids that I never managed to defeat, and few people on the server ever did. Not much like that in modern MMO's except for the absolute top level raid encounter which the Dev's just jack up the difficulty until they decide to let people beat the encounter.
Patience being a virtue doesn't make it a challenge. It doesn't make it difficult or hard, it only makes it take a long time.
I don't think anyone's going to call a zero-dance-step 15 minute fight challenging just because it takes long.
Meanwhile any fight where it's all about the dance steps and the margin for error is small is obviously the textbook definition of challenge -- without skill you'll fail.
1. actually it totally does. You think lance armstrong isnt challenged? of course he is
2. if twitch skills become the main focus its no longer an RPG its then another type of game, peroid end of story. Totally valid for a type of game but for most MMOs and the history of MMO's it revolves around the concept of your success related to your character NOT your twitch skills.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Comments
ahh good old lvl 1 erudite necro lost in tox forest at night:D you are blind, no sense heading, and are KOS everywhere so you cant even buy/sell stuff so your mana regen very slow cuz of no food:D
it's funny now, but damn back in the day it was annoying as hell:D
This^^
And YOU would fair better, if you'd have trained up/used your Sense Heading ...
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
sense heading, like all other skills, was level capped back in the day:p a lvl 1 erudite cant go beyond sense heading of 25? due to level cap:D
new school heroic fights are just as difficult as old school fights where the same nunber of players are involved. People have not fundementally become more intelligent in 15 years, so where new fights are more technical, mods are more advanced to compensate. Note 'non heroic' normal mode is much much much MUCH easier than old school.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
difficulty of fight for new school vs old school
old school, 6 players vs 1 trash mob
new school 1 player vs 6 trash mobs:D
i suppose you can call that equal level of difficulty, but definately not the same type of difficulty.
not really accurate or helpful, and im a firm old school fan. Raiding you dont get 6v1. The rest ofc including 5 -10 man instance stuff is not in the same ballpark. Premium to premium is comparable ofc, unless you think humans are now much more intelligent than before :P
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
There isn't much of a "new school" around at all. The mechanics have been more or less the same since 1996 and the only real difference is that the games have gotten more cocus on gear and less focus on leveling, and that happened over 5 years ago.
The whole problem with MMOs is that there isn't a new school at all. They just recycle the same thing over and over.
You could take any MMO player who started the last year and he still could play Meridian 59 from early 1996 without any problems with just a 5 minutes tutorial.
We need that new school now, a game that doesn't feel like all the rest but with a different skin.
Yeah, there have been a few games that tried to change things, UO, SWG and Eve are the most famous but they never got any competent games following in their footsteps.
Most people define challenging in terms of something which takes skill to accomplish.
Early MMORPGs were often not about skill so much as perserverance in adversity. Adversity being tedium (timesinks) or hassles (crappy UIs.)
These are not the types of challenges actual adults want. They want something where skill is rewarded. WOW raids certainly provide that, though it's fair to criticize the leveling part of WOW for not being tailored to each individual as it should be.
To say raids aren't challenging is completely wrong though. Both knowing/forming a strategy and executing it (in other words: skill) are crucial to beating tougher raid bosses. The only criticism WOW deserves is that this same level of strategy and execution isn't required during leveling -- but to be fair, leveling isn't really a huge part of the game.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
THIS. So much.
I started playing MMOs with the launch of the original EverQuest. As a virtual world, it was interesting. I liked it, and liked fitting my character into the world around her. As a game, however, it sucked balls. It took FOREVER to accomplish anything or get anywhere. It wasn't fun.
Early expansions of EQ started trying to alleviate the time sinks, like adding the PoK books, and the instanced dungeons with LDoN, but it wasn't enough. The game itself was what was wrong with EverQuest. It was a neat world, but after 3+ years in it, I had to find something else that was more interesting to play. I was tired of the mechanics of the game world and needed something new.
I went through a bunch of early MMOs -- SWG, Anarchy Online, Earth & Beyond, DAoC, Asheron's Call, etc., and none of them felt like great GAMES until I got to City of Heroes. CoH was quick, intuitive, fun, and it was the first time I could remember an MMO being a fun game just for the sake of being a game. It didn't have any of the meaningless timesinks and slow downs that previous MMOs did. It wasn't a fantasy world with elves and dwarves. It was new and unique for the time. I stuck with it for far longer than I ever played EQ.
I've gone through other games since leaving CoH, like WAR, AoC, WoW and EQ2, and while they each have their strengths and weaknesses, none of them really got me to stay longer than a few months. I stopped playing MMOs altogether when I started graduate school in August 2010. I'll be done in May 2012, so I can start gaming again.
These days, I couldn't go back to the "old school" virtual world style MMOs of the past. For me, that was a long time ago. It's in the past and I've changed as a gamer. I don't need a virtual world anymore. I just need to have fun and blow off steam in a fun, interesting setting. I'd rather get together with a group of friends and run through an interesting game.
well... when i said 1v6 and 6v1 I was referring to "group" content. modern day group content is so "simplified" there really isn't much reason to consider strategy. just zerg and spank will do the job 95% of the time. old school group content at least give you pause to consider is it possible to split the pull? or how to handle the adds if things go wrong:) nowadays, even healers can tank 2 or 3 mobs w/o the tank noticing something is wrong:D
IMO there aren't any REAL raid content in modern MMO's. I don't consider 20man a raid, i consider it a small skirmish. something to do for kicks while you are waiting for the rest of the raid to log on. a REAL raid require HIGH level of organization and cooperation, not something that is possible in a PUG. raiders MUST know that they can depend on the other people in the raid and vise versa.
sure there are challanging fights in modern MMO's. but nothing the old schoolers havent seen thousands of times before.
I love you.
Patience and perseverance in the face of adversity are actually measures by which humans are frequently judged and admired for having such traits so it makes sense that it carries through to MMO's as well. Not all skill/talent relates to quickness of hand.
As to raiding, there's nothing really different about old school raids vs newer ones such as in a game like WOW. It's really all just learning and memorizing the dance steps that the developers programmed into the encounter and then executing them properly.
The process hasn't changed over the years, and while newer MMO's have more dance steps to deal with, look at the interface mods they require to properly accomplish (and the amount of precision gearing/preparation that has to be done to complete the fight.
I recall old school Lineage 2 and DAOC dragon raids that I never managed to defeat, and few people on the server ever did. Not much like that in modern MMO's except for the absolute top level raid encounter which the Dev's just jack up the difficulty until they decide to let people beat the encounter.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Again.... people have no clue of what they speak about. In todays combat mechanics there is only a few "hooks" into your character.. so combat is not deeper.
Everquest for example had levitate as an engine mechanic... the character hook alone open up endless possibilities and solutions. Not possible on cheaper engines that don't have such "hooks". How many other MMORPG can you disarm your opponent..?
In 15 years you've had business men replace enthusiasts @ making MMORPG.. so these business men have never known... so they cannot forget how much deeper older games actually were. Not only that, but the developmnet team they put together, would typically be of young adults who themselves, have no clue what older games even had....
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
Sorry...
Anything that a typical normal 14 year old can do.. isn't challenging to a 42 year old adult, whom has tackled much harder raids in their day.
Not even sure if some of you are aware that some olden raids took 6~8 hours before you even got to the main mob.. and then you can totoally wipe and spend the next 2 days getting corpses out. Doing this is not hard (to sit @ keyboard and press buttons), but it takes perserverence & goal setting with like minded individuals to accoimplish things.
Now (today) it^ is all given away in armor sets, because those developers don't want to hurt the fragile egoes of the children growing up today.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
I pretty much agree with what your saying, but i am not referring to the 95% trivial rubbish that wow pumps out that can be zerged, I am referring to the premium content - e.g Lich Hard mode 25, Anub 25 hard mode etc before any nerfs + achievments with limited tries per week. If this was old school, and 25 man (to make a fair comparison) it would be just as difficult (although i agree the route to get to that boss is joke now with pathetic trash). Consider, you do indeed have 25 * 30-40 year olds playing, with 20 years experience per player - it has to be difficult to challenge that level of player. For example, nowadays I would raid with perhaps 15 macros and actions all bound so I can react within 150 ms for any of those, reacting in some encounters too slowly, even 1/2 a second is a wipe.
But on the whole these fights are not the norm, and nerfed over time, which is the difference between old and new school - in old school you sucked it up and learned or failed. There is no nerf in 6 weeks. Old school was much more interesting and harder.
for 14 year olds - thats where normal mode + nerfs comes into play, blizzard fail.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Or maybe it's not character flaws on the partof developers and today's gamers. Maybe the people who had 6-8 hours to do nothing other than wait for one mob to appear and then another 3-4 hours to fight that one mob simply enjoyed a different type of perseverence in the face of adversity than most of the gamers do today.
This isn't an age thing. It's not a laziness thing. It's not an instant gratification thing. The truth is, for most people, waiting in line isn't a challenge or a hardcore experience. It's simply waiting in line - and there are many more entertaining things that people feel they could be doing with their leisure activitry, espeicially people that don't have 4 hours to do any one activity, let alone stand in line for four hours to go do it.
"Anything that a typical normal 14 year old can do.. isn't challenging to a 42 year old adult, whom has tackled much harder raids in their day."
I'm a 42-year old adult, as well, but I'm not about to waggle my cane at today's gamers when I can put just as much effort into trying to understand them.. Feel free to keep on about fragile egos and 14-year olds, though.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
people have different opinions about difficulty.
I could argue a boss fight where 80 players zerg the boss down over 5 hours is hard. The counter argument would be tedium does not equal difficulty.
I could argue technical boss fights where you must learn how to dance with a boss is hard. The counter argument being a game of memory is not difficult.
A boss that if not downed in 30 seconds will butt rape could be difficult. then someone will counter with loading up on nothing but burst DPS is not hard.
A boss that behaves randomly (maybe he will AOE, maybe not, maybe spawn 1 add, perhaps 50 adds, etc) could be difficult, but someone will argue that boss depends on pure luck. not skill.
etc.
One man's perserverance is another man's lunacy.
When a new hyped up movie or game comes up, you often get people who will camp for hours or even days to be one of the first to get a ticket or game copy. They show great perserverence and ocus on their goal. I on the other hand wait a day and spend about five minutes getting pretty much the same value. To them I might seem lazy and unmotivated but to me they just seem like a bunch of idiots.
I am of the 'work smart, not hard' school of thought so I really do not value pointless perseverence much. 6-8 hour raids to me seem like really bad design since there is not much point in stretching things out like that unless you are just testing simple endurance. It means that there was no smart way to beat the content faster without needless repetition.
Sure. But the point is that i should not have to. This is just an artificial road-block to frustrate the player without adding much fun. There is tons of bad design like this in the early days of EQ. Sitting with a spellbook for 10 min is the worst offender.
Yeh. Very bad design.
In fact, Blizz is redesigning the early wow dungeons to be shorter. No one needs a 5 hr dungeon run.
In fact, hard mode raid is hard in WOW but never long. If you can do it, you kill the boss in 10 min. But most people can wipe after wipe. That is the measurement of challenge .. whehter you can do it or not .. not if you have 10 hrs to burn on it.
I dont agree with the old schoolers view of community. Both old and new have healthy communities for those who want it. That said, to be frank, anyone who ever gave serious consideration to playing WoW let alone actually playing it, is as far as I am concerned not an 'old school' as I view the term.
To me you have two different types of gamers. Gamers who play the system of the game to win and those who want to be in a virtual world. For those intrested in a virtual world WoW graphics simply cause way to much of a mental barrier to be taken seriously at that level.
other aspects of virtual world players involve, traveling should feel like its a good distance and that planning is actually required, the best goals are goals that require help from others and the like, basically things similar to real life oh and yeah like in real life, cant realistially be played casually.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
It's great that you enjoy perseverance in the face of a game being adverse to you.
But that's not challenge, nor does it really require skill (just time.)
Guess who has more free time? The 14 year old.
Most adult gamers actually feel the exact opposite of what you're stating here. Anyone can waste a bunch of time persevering in a game with timesinks and tedium, but only a skilled player will beat a genuinely difficult encounter.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
That is an arcade style gaming mindset. Its a valid mindset but its not how RPG work.
plus, to be honest, if you want to be good at twitch skills you still have to put in the time and practice its not like god is going to instantly bless you with a the skills for a win, in any context.
That all said, like I say in an RPG you play a character and like in real life, to be good at something requires a grind, thus your character grinds.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Patience being a virtue doesn't make it a challenge. It doesn't make it difficult or hard, it only makes it take a long time.
I don't think anyone's going to call a zero-dance-step 15 minute fight challenging just because it takes long.
Meanwhile any fight where it's all about the dance steps and the margin for error is small is obviously the textbook definition of challenge -- without skill you'll fail.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
1. actually it totally does. You think lance armstrong isnt challenged? of course he is
2. if twitch skills become the main focus its no longer an RPG its then another type of game, peroid end of story. Totally valid for a type of game but for most MMOs and the history of MMO's it revolves around the concept of your success related to your character NOT your twitch skills.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me