Personally I don't put any hope in any themepark game, and don't fool yourself, GW2 is still a themepark game just dressed up differently. The question is, will it be littered with stupid go kill 12 of these, or go fed x this to that person. How linear is it? From what I gather it still plays like any themepark, you follow a certain path(based on level) and unlock areas as you go. What makes that different from WoW, Aion, Rift, or SWTOR?
Games can be themeparks, but am I the only one that thinks we need a whole new design paradigm to shake this genre up?
SWTOR could be a fun and engaging game, if Bioware new wtf they were doing and how to make a MMO. It's as if they slapped a multiplayer game title on a single player game and said, there you go. They neglected the fact that MMO's are about the community within the MMO. Hardly no guild tools. There is nothing to bring the communities of the factions together to do something as a community, to build something. Add to that all the broken things, the dead stagnate worlds, lackluster AI of MOB's and all the missing features and SWTOR makes RIFT look like a 10.
GW2 is suppose to have great world PvPvE and players will be able to fight over territory and what not. I hope that is the case. Otherwise I think we'll see the last of MMO's being developed here in the US because SWTOR is going to crash and burn so hard and frighten future investors into developing MMO's here.
If GW2 fails, our best hope is either ArcheAge or Blizzards new game.
I gave up on TSW BTW because it looks like it is all instanced to hell and gone with MOB's just standing waiting for players to play whack-the-mole. God I hate that design.
Personally I don't put any hope in any themepark game, and don't fool yourself, GW2 is still a themepark game just dressed up differently. The question is, will it be littered with stupid go kill 12 of these, or go fed x this to that person. How linear is it? From what I gather it still plays like any themepark, you follow a certain path(based on level) and unlock areas as you go. What makes that different from WoW, Aion, Rift, or SWTOR?
Games can be themeparks, but am I the only one that thinks we need a whole new design paradigm to shake this genre up?
Guild Wars 2 IS a whole new design paradigm.
Instead of quests in the open world, GW2 has Dynamic Events. To answer the questions you pose in the first paragraph, you really have to understand DEs. They're not just quests in a new wrapper, they're all part of ArenaNet's design from the ground up to make MMOs more social and cooperative than they've ever been before. I really urge people to watch this video on why DEs are the next evolution pasts quest and public quests. It's really long, but thorough. http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1013691/Designing-Guild-Wars-2-Dynamic
Rather than bore you with a big wall of text, I'll just try to answer your questions.
DEs, if nothing else, think of them as communal quests in the world which actually happen. Bandits attack, everyone in the area can stop them and all be rewarded. They scale up in difficulty so it's a challenge no matter whether there's 1 or 10 people there. A great explanation of the difference between a Kill X quest and what is essentially a Kill X DE is here. As he says, it's a combat MMO, so you're going to be killing things. But just like WoW gave a context to the killing that EQ lacked, GW2 gives an even more immersive experience than traditional quests by making it about what's happening in the world, not just the player.
Because DEs are communal, there aren't (that I know of anyway), any fedex DEs. They just don't really make sense. The game is also non-linear within a zone. A zone has a level range, but you can do anything within it. You should be exploring and then see a DE and help, not be led by the hand to the next area.
Here's a map. You can see there's chains of DEs because of a) cause and effect on the world progressing it, and b) to keep people working together longer, but you can do anything here in any order, anytime it's running.
The other thing about this game is the automentoring. If you go to do lower level content, the game automatically scales you down (so if you do a level 5 DE, you'll be like level 8). This not only prevents griefing by people 1-shotting lower level events, it also lets you replay anything in the game at any time. You can play with your friends regardless of level and be rewarded and challenged. You could hate the look of the Asura and not want to make one, but still do their entire newbie zone with a level 80 human if you wanted.
You might not believe it, but this is what not putting in a wall of text looks like for me. Anyway, I urge you to watch the video, and I'll be happy to answer any other questions you may have.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
That said, it does look like more of a themepark (granted, with some twists to the standard formula) as opposed to the virtual world / sandbox I really would like to see.
I remain hopeful, but won't be surprised if I'm disappointed.
GW2 is the only game I'm excited about right now. ArenaNet's approach to the game; trying to solve the problems of the genre, iterating and polishing until it's perfect (not just good or ok), and not talking about anything unless it's already working in the game just all make me think that this is a company that is going to make something special.
It's also the B2P model. It's so much better than P2P for the customer. It's cheaper. It doesn't lock you into a game and also leads to more stable populations since people have no incentive to stop playing. It also forces the company to put out quality expansions that you want to voluntarily purchase. P2P I just don't think there's any correlation between what you're paying and what you're getting. Rift is much smaller than WoW, but they put out content faster because each sub is more important to them.
That's it right there really. I'm trying to keep an open mind and learn about all the other upcoming games, but really, the company I think is going to put out the best product is also putting out for cheaper than the going rate. How can I even get excited about anything else?
I pretty much have the same reasons as you, to have GW2 as the only MMO worth being excited for right now. Though I would add on the fact that it's the only recent MMORPG to try and have both a balanced and highly competitive team based PvP and also support large scale, 3 sided PvP, over important capturable locations. Just learning about the current issues with SW:TOR's PvP, just shows how important is that ArenaNet are what they are doing and I just can't wait to see the finished product.
I'm sorry but imo, Dominus, Archeage, and even The Repop put GW2 to shame. TOR is a really fun game, so is Rift and I even enjoyed my time in WoW. I'm sure TSW and GW2 will be entertaining as well. But developer created content, no matter how well voiced or how intricate the chain of events, will never hold a candle to player created content in an mmorpg.
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
In the distance, a light shines through the darkness. As I stumble through the black towards that pinpoint of light, a crash against broken streetlamps and am forced through many twists and turns.
In the end, I make my way to the source of the light, bright and beautiful. And I am home.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
I too am putting all my chips into GW2. The playerbase will be huge, as it's F2P, and all the devout Rift and WoW players will also give it a go because of that. Worst case scenario, GW2 will for sure set a new standard.
Hopefully GW2 will demonstrate devotion to designing an MMO based on solid gameplay principles in such a thorough way, and be so obviously successful because of that approach, that future MMO designers will be snapped out of the hypnosis that seems to lead to trying to shoehorn a few interesting ideas into inherited MMO game structures. This, for me, is the real hope GW2 represents for the genre. Call it freedom to innovate or whatever you like. The key is convincing the people with the money that the only viable way to proceed with creating a virtual world is to start from easily definable gameplay concepts and make sure absolutely everything in the game serves those concepts, whether or not that journey leads to familiar territory.
Charr: Outta my way. Human: What's your problem? Charr: Your thin skin.
Personally I don't put any hope in any themepark game, and don't fool yourself, GW2 is still a themepark game just dressed up differently. The question is, will it be littered with stupid go kill 12 of these, or go fed x this to that person. How linear is it? From what I gather it still plays like any themepark, you follow a certain path(based on level) and unlock areas as you go. What makes that different from WoW, Aion, Rift, or SWTOR?
Games can be themeparks, but am I the only one that thinks we need a whole new design paradigm to shake this genre up?
SWTOR could be a fun and engaging game, if Bioware new wtf they were doing and how to make a MMO. It's as if they slapped a multiplayer game title on a single player game and said, there you go. They neglected the fact that MMO's are about the community within the MMO. Hardly no guild tools. There is nothing to bring the communities of the factions together to do something as a community, to build something. Add to that all the broken things, the dead stagnate worlds, lackluster AI of MOB's and all the missing features and SWTOR makes RIFT look like a 10.
GW2 is suppose to have great world PvPvE and players will be able to fight over territory and what not. I hope that is the case. Otherwise I think we'll see the last of MMO's being developed here in the US because SWTOR is going to crash and burn so hard and frighten future investors into developing MMO's here.
If GW2 fails, our best hope is either ArcheAge or Blizzards new game.
I gave up on TSW BTW because it looks like it is all instanced to hell and gone with MOB's just standing waiting for players to play whack-the-mole. God I hate that design.
1. I would like to place a wager with you on TOR failing. While I think the game needs improvements there are alot of people out there who like themeparks. WoW's numbers attest to this and the star wars brand is enough for alot of people to keep playing. The game will never be a sandbox Get Over It Already, we know you like sandboxes (why are you not playing Ryzom right now?). The thought of TOR crashing and burning is just plain nonsense. What TOR will be is the last high budget mmo that plays in the traditional themepark way. Now is the time of the niche mmos that have alot of experimental features.
2. Every single mmo coming out does not need to be a sandbox, there is enough room for all models, its just high time that developers start expanding on features in themeparks. I personally am a fan of the sandpark concept ala the themepark with sandbox features, which is what ArcheAge is.
3. Wildstar will be what is needed, it is a themepark with sandbox features. So will EQNext (which will steal alot of features from Vanguard-mark my words). While I think ArcheAge is going to be a good game we should not expect it anytime soon in the US. Also check out Light and Dark 2. If the Wildstar team sticks to their guns and keeps in at least half of the things they are speaking about, this game is going to be the game that changes mmos on the western hemisphere forever. Do not write this one off.
4. The day of the true sandbox is dead, there will never be a SWG ever again, they simply cost too much to make. Unless its made by an independent, its not going to happen. There will never be a AAA or even AA dev who will take the financial risk of making a pure sandbox. Hell look at Skyrim, its actually more themeparky than Morrowind and Oblivion (and has the greatest popularity ahem sandbox mixed with themepark is the best way to go as I mentioned earlier in this post. I do no have the faith in indie devs to be able to make a true sandbox mmo, I think they are biting off more that they can chew. They should really consider making hybrids, at the end of the day this is a business you need to make money, you need to pay bills and you need to pay your people, and if you are doing this soley for the love well then enjoy doing it by yourself as you will not be able to retain people for long.
And not one of you true sandbox people are willing to fork up some cash to help these guys get started, otherwise you would be putting your money where your mouth is. Not one of you will do this. Want that dream game of yours to be made then help fund these devs who are trying to make what you want. I am sure they would more than appreciate the help. I am looking at you too Teala. Please name the indie sandbox devs that you are helping to make the game that you want. I am sure the Repopulation guys can always use some extra help, especially cash.
Otherwise shut the hell up.
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
Personally I don't put any hope in any themepark game, and don't fool yourself, GW2 is still a themepark game just dressed up differently. The question is, will it be littered with stupid go kill 12 of these, or go fed x this to that person. How linear is it? From what I gather it still plays like any themepark, you follow a certain path(based on level) and unlock areas as you go. What makes that different from WoW, Aion, Rift, or SWTOR?
Games can be themeparks, but am I the only one that thinks we need a whole new design paradigm to shake this genre up?
Guild Wars 2 IS a whole new design paradigm.
Instead of quests in the open world, GW2 has Dynamic Events. To answer the questions you pose in the first paragraph, you really have to understand DEs. They're not just quests in a new wrapper, they're all part of ArenaNet's design from the ground up to make MMOs more social and cooperative than they've ever been before. I really urge people to watch this video on why DEs are the next evolution pasts quest and public quests. It's really long, but thorough. http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1013691/Designing-Guild-Wars-2-Dynamic
Rather than bore you with a big wall of text, I'll just try to answer your questions.
DEs, if nothing else, think of them as communal quests in the world which actually happen. Bandits attack, everyone in the area can stop them and all be rewarded. They scale up in difficulty so it's a challenge no matter whether there's 1 or 10 people there. A great explanation of the difference between a Kill X quest and what is essentially a Kill X DE is here. As he says, it's a combat MMO, so you're going to be killing things. But just like WoW gave a context to the killing that EQ lacked, GW2 gives an even more immersive experience than traditional quests by making it about what's happening in the world, not just the player.
Because DEs are communal, there aren't (that I know of anyway), any fedex DEs. They just don't really make sense. The game is also non-linear within a zone. A zone has a level range, but you can do anything within it. You should be exploring and then see a DE and help, not be led by the hand to the next area.
Here's a map. You can see there's chains of DEs because of a) cause and effect on the world progressing it, and b) to keep people working together longer, but you can do anything here in any order, anytime it's running.
The other thing about this game is the automentoring. If you go to do lower level content, the game automatically scales you down (so if you do a level 5 DE, you'll be like level 8). This not only prevents griefing by people 1-shotting lower level events, it also lets you replay anything in the game at any time. You can play with your friends regardless of level and be rewarded and challenged. You could hate the look of the Asura and not want to make one, but still do their entire newbie zone with a level 80 human if you wanted.
You might not believe it, but this is what not putting in a wall of text looks like for me. Anyway, I urge you to watch the video, and I'll be happy to answer any other questions you may have.
I'm all for DEs and all but GW2 is not a new design paradigm. It IS themepark only less linear. I don't know why people think dynamic events are randomly generated and live out in the world. They're not. They are carefully scripted and planned and are nothing but quests except you don't have to talk to anyone to engage in it.
Now that's not saying it's a step backwards for MMOs or the like. I think it's a good step forward for building a community but some people make it seem like it's something bigger or greater than it actually is.
I'm all for DEs and all but GW2 is not a new design paradigm. It IS themepark only less linear. I don't know why people think dynamic events are randomly generated and live out in the world. They're not. They are carefully scripted and planned and are nothing but quests except you don't have to talk to anyone to engage in it.
Now that's not saying it's a step backwards for MMOs or the like. I think it's a good step forward for building a community but some people make it seem like it's something bigger or greater than it actually is.
That is probably accurate enough if you are talking about a single event independent of its chain. Any given 'event' will play itself out largely like a quest in a standard MMO would. The fact that each event then causes new event states to form is definitely new, as is the fact that the entire PVE world works like that.
Charr: Outta my way. Human: What's your problem? Charr: Your thin skin.
I'm sorry but imo, Dominus, Archeage, and even The Repop put GW2 to shame. TOR is a really fun game, so is Rift and I even enjoyed my time in WoW. I'm sure TSW and GW2 will be entertaining as well. But developer created content, no matter how well voiced or how intricate the chain of events, will never hold a candle to player created content in an mmorpg.
It's a good thing there are enough games in the world for both someone like you and someone like I to have something we look forward to playing, rather than being forced to play the same thing together, then!
Originally posted by sidhaethe Originally posted by DannyGlover I'm sorry but imo, Dominus, Archeage, and even The Repop put GW2 to shame. TOR is a really fun game, so is Rift and I even enjoyed my time in WoW. I'm sure TSW and GW2 will be entertaining as well. But developer created content, no matter how well voiced or how intricate the chain of events, will never hold a candle to player created content in an mmorpg.
It's a good thing there are enough games in the world for both someone like you and someone like I to have something we look forward to playing, rather than being forced to play the same thing together, then!
Haha yeah I guess you could put it that way
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
I'm all for DEs and all but GW2 is not a new design paradigm. It IS themepark only less linear. I don't know why people think dynamic events are randomly generated and live out in the world. They're not. They are carefully scripted and planned and are nothing but quests except you don't have to talk to anyone to engage in it.
Now that's not saying it's a step backwards for MMOs or the like. I think it's a good step forward for building a community but some people make it seem like it's something bigger or greater than it actually is.
In my post, there's nothing about them being randomly generated. They're not. But at the same time, they don't always run. They might be on another part of the chain, or could be triggered by day/night, weather, or players. One they even said is triggered by players killing enough critters.
I'm sorry, but I think the parts in red are contradictory. Like quests they have objectives, and there still will be killing and collecting, but the presenation is totally different.
Traditional quests have a ton of issues. There's picking them up and turning them in. You don't get credit if you do it before you have the quest. There's no partial credit. There's the wall of text presentation. They don't actually happen in the world. They're generally linear. They're isolating because people need to be on the same stage. You need to be the same level as your friend to do them or you trivialize the content. They're individually unimportant due to having 20-30 in your log. They don't scale up if you do them with your friend. You have to compete with people you're not grouped with in order to do them. You generally can't repeat them. You generally can't fail them (you'll kill those 10 eventually).
Other games have tried to solve some of these problems but dynamic events attempt to solve all of them. It's really not just about DEs though, it's a whole world vision of cooperation and socialization. They want you to WANT to see other people. DEs are purely cooperative. There's no competition or tagging. Everyone gets full XP and loot for helping kill a mob which naturally makes people want to stick together so they can kill mobs faster and more safely. There's cross profession combos and anyone rezzing anyone so people can work together even ungrouped. There's the automentoring which I mentioned which not only prevents griefing, it keeps you from having to write off someone from your friends list because they're now 20 levels lower.
If you can't tell, I think DEs and GW2 are going to be pretty amazing.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
GW2 is my last attempt at this genre after a series of nearly identical games with, in my humble opinion, very subtle differences. Lets cross our fingers and hope for the best.
If you want something different, then go play something different. Some recent games have been proverbial WoW-clones and some have not. Don't whine about the former while ignoring the latter.
Am I the only one that sees GW2 in this light? I think we can all agree that in the last few years we have had more than our fair share of letdowns when it comes up to games not living up to our hype and expectations..........heck even living up to what the devs promise us. It is time for the genre to evolve. Us veteran mmorpgers are definetely in need of an evolution of gameplay or the gaming community may soon lose us. The teachers and mentors of the newer gamers to this genre. Also the advocates to ideas and feedback that should be $$$$$ signs to the devs.
GW2 is my last attempt at this genre after a series of nearly identical games with, in my humble opinion, very subtle differences. Lets cross our fingers and hope for the best.
i believe you will be sorely let down my friend. no game ever lives up to the hype, niether will GW2 and unfortunately people keep buying/believing the hype. makinge GW2 out to be some second coming. It won't be. Will GW2 be a good game? probably. Will it be all your hopes and dreams and everythuing its been hyped to be? No
Am I the only one that sees GW2 in this light? I think we can all agree that in the last few years we have had more than our fair share of letdowns when it comes up to games not living up to our hype and expectations..........heck even living up to what the devs promise us. It is time for the genre to evolve. Us veteran mmorpgers are definetely in need of an evolution of gameplay or the gaming community may soon lose us. The teachers and mentors of the newer gamers to this genre. Also the advocates to ideas and feedback that should be $$$$$ signs to the devs.
GW2 is my last attempt at this genre after a series of nearly identical games with, in my humble opinion, very subtle differences. Lets cross our fingers and hope for the best.
i believe you will be sorely let down my friend. no game ever lives up to the hype, niether will GW2 and unfortunately people keep buying/believing the hype. makinge GW2 out to be some second coming. It won't be. Will GW2 be a good game? probably. Will it be all your hopes and dreams and everythuing its been hyped to be? No
That works both ways, it all depends on the person and the amount of hype that person will unwillingly let through.
History has shown us hype can be deceptive in MMO's and i fully understand peoples reluctance when new hype comes through but luckly we have many sources of info to form our own opinion, something many lack to do and just buy whatever gets more press/hype.
Will it be all that i hoped for a fantasy MMO ? No, but it will fulfill this emptyness feeling i've been having in the genre more than any other title presented so far. That's good enough for me.
I do have room for deception once it arrives but not as much i've had with other titles.
Like quests they have objectives, and there still will be killing and collecting, but the presenation is totally different.
I want to point out that just because the presentation is different doesn't change what they really are: quests. I agree they have taken steps forward to improve on the current model and if it's executed well enough it will be great. However, they are just that: quests and glorified ones at that.
That's all they are and there's no reason to blow it up into the second coming of Jesus because you will be sorely dissappointed when you try the game.
Like quests they have objectives, and there still will be killing and collecting, but the presenation is totally different.
I want to point out that just because the presentation is different doesn't change what they really are: quests. I agree they have taken steps forward to improve on the current model and if it's executed well enough it will be great. However, they are just that: quests and glorified ones at that.
That's all they are and there's no reason to blow it up into the second coming of Jesus because you will be sorely dissappointed when you try the game.
Lmao I' second this if all they did was throw a VO on the quest
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Like quests they have objectives, and there still will be killing and collecting, but the presenation is totally different.
I want to point out that just because the presentation is different doesn't change what they really are: quests. I agree they have taken steps forward to improve on the current model and if it's executed well enough it will be great. However, they are just that: quests and glorified ones at that.
That's all they are and there's no reason to blow it up into the second coming of Jesus because you will be sorely dissappointed when you try the game.
in skyrim, you can get quests by running up to the jarls and getting quests. or, sometimes, you can be wandering around and suddenly npcs kill each other or something and you get a quest. i am thinking of one town i went into where as soon as you load into the town, an npc murders another in front of you and gets cut down by the guards. the guards tell you there's "nothing to see here" and someone gives you a note to meet them somewhere else.
i know which of the quests i found more entertaining to receive.
and that's pretty much what it boils down to. the lateral thinking of the devs to make the WHOLE experience interesting. we all know we'll still be killing ten rats, but you can forgive a game a lot if it's entertaining. take, for example, swtor. that's also been accused of being entertaining for its voiced-over stuff. apparently the quests are still just kill ten rats, but the presentation's been getting everyone excited (i wouldn't know, ea hates australians - don't really blame them, either. we're pretty amazing so it's right they'd feel jealous).
for me, i'm interested enough to find it exciting. gw2's method looks very fluid.
Like quests they have objectives, and there still will be killing and collecting, but the presenation is totally different.
I want to point out that just because the presentation is different doesn't change what they really are: quests. I agree they have taken steps forward to improve on the current model and if it's executed well enough it will be great. However, they are just that: quests and glorified ones at that.
That's all they are and there's no reason to blow it up into the second coming of Jesus because you will be sorely dissappointed when you try the game.
in skyrim, you can get quests by running up to the jarls and getting quests. or, sometimes, you can be wandering around and suddenly npcs kill each other or something and you get a quest. i am thinking of one town i went into where as soon as you load into the town, an npc murders another in front of you and gets cut down by the guards. the guards tell you there's "nothing to see here" and someone gives you a note to meet them somewhere else.
i know which of the quests i found more entertaining to receive.
and that's pretty much what it boils down to. the lateral thinking of the devs to make the WHOLE experience interesting. we all know we'll still be killing ten rats, but you can forgive a game a lot if it's entertaining. take, for example, swtor. that's also been accused of being entertaining for its voiced-over stuff. apparently the quests are still just kill ten rats, but the presentation's been getting everyone excited (i wouldn't know, ea hates australians - don't really blame them, either. we're pretty amazing so it's right they'd feel jealous).
for me, i'm interested enough to find it exciting. gw2's method looks very fluid.
Yea I remember seeing that, when that guy tried killing me I countered and sliced his head off, was very awesome. Then I picked up the letter or w/e something like that.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Like quests they have objectives, and there still will be killing and collecting, but the presenation is totally different.
I want to point out that just because the presentation is different doesn't change what they really are: quests. I agree they have taken steps forward to improve on the current model and if it's executed well enough it will be great. However, they are just that: quests and glorified ones at that.
That's all they are and there's no reason to blow it up into the second coming of Jesus because you will be sorely dissappointed when you try the game.
Dynamic Events are not just 'quests' with a different presentation. They represent a step in the direction of creating the holy grail of MMO mechanics, a persistent world that is dynamically affected by individual player actions. This was the original 'dream' behind MMORPGs, but due to the limitations of technology it has never been achieved. Sandbox RPGs represent the initial attempts at such a concept, but most of them only implement the FFA PvP aspect of it. EVE Online is probably the closest a Sandbox has gotten.
The idea of a dynamic yet persistent world is essentially trying to bring the world and scope of a single player sandbox RPG like Skyrim into the MMO realm. The crux of the problem is how to generate and present content to players that can affect the world, but accessible to everyone. If a quest involves saving a town from a dragon, then the completion of that quest prevents other people from saving the town because the dragon would no longer be there and the town would no longer be under attack. Themepark MMOs try to tackle this problem by making everything instanced or sharded, thus everyone can save the town from the dragon, but the cost is that the world is static and the player has no ability to affect the game world. Sandbox MMOs generally focus on PvP or economics, thus while the player can affect the world via faction domination, the actual game world itself still doesn't change much.
Dynamic Events are the solution that A-net came up with to tackle this problem. So a group a adventures can come across a town that's under attack and save it, affecting the world permanently. The caveat is that eventually the town can come under attack from the dragon again, or in the cases of more complex Dynamic Event chains, any number of scenarios can appear on the town. Thus, there's some semblance of player actions affecting the game world, but it doesn't prevent other people from experiencing the content (eventually).
This is something that has not been done before in any MMO, and if it succeeds, then it means that we're finally one step closer to the development of a true persistent yet dynamic online world.
We are jaded veterans. sadly almost no game but the first one that we played and loved playing could make us feel that way again. unless you can time travel back to that first MMO and remember being in awe off the virtual world and the great times, you wont regain it again.
You better off finding something that keep's your attention span for more then 7 months and enjoy it. Thats why so many MMO gamers demand this feature and that feature. it's all tied to that emotional bond with that first great MMO you loved playing.
It's dead jim. you can never get that feeling again sadly.
Comments
Personally I don't put any hope in any themepark game, and don't fool yourself, GW2 is still a themepark game just dressed up differently. The question is, will it be littered with stupid go kill 12 of these, or go fed x this to that person. How linear is it? From what I gather it still plays like any themepark, you follow a certain path(based on level) and unlock areas as you go. What makes that different from WoW, Aion, Rift, or SWTOR?
Games can be themeparks, but am I the only one that thinks we need a whole new design paradigm to shake this genre up?
SWTOR could be a fun and engaging game, if Bioware new wtf they were doing and how to make a MMO. It's as if they slapped a multiplayer game title on a single player game and said, there you go. They neglected the fact that MMO's are about the community within the MMO. Hardly no guild tools. There is nothing to bring the communities of the factions together to do something as a community, to build something. Add to that all the broken things, the dead stagnate worlds, lackluster AI of MOB's and all the missing features and SWTOR makes RIFT look like a 10.
GW2 is suppose to have great world PvPvE and players will be able to fight over territory and what not. I hope that is the case. Otherwise I think we'll see the last of MMO's being developed here in the US because SWTOR is going to crash and burn so hard and frighten future investors into developing MMO's here.
If GW2 fails, our best hope is either ArcheAge or Blizzards new game.
I gave up on TSW BTW because it looks like it is all instanced to hell and gone with MOB's just standing waiting for players to play whack-the-mole. God I hate that design.
Guild Wars 2 IS a whole new design paradigm.
Instead of quests in the open world, GW2 has Dynamic Events. To answer the questions you pose in the first paragraph, you really have to understand DEs. They're not just quests in a new wrapper, they're all part of ArenaNet's design from the ground up to make MMOs more social and cooperative than they've ever been before. I really urge people to watch this video on why DEs are the next evolution pasts quest and public quests. It's really long, but thorough. http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1013691/Designing-Guild-Wars-2-Dynamic
Rather than bore you with a big wall of text, I'll just try to answer your questions.
DEs, if nothing else, think of them as communal quests in the world which actually happen. Bandits attack, everyone in the area can stop them and all be rewarded. They scale up in difficulty so it's a challenge no matter whether there's 1 or 10 people there. A great explanation of the difference between a Kill X quest and what is essentially a Kill X DE is here. As he says, it's a combat MMO, so you're going to be killing things. But just like WoW gave a context to the killing that EQ lacked, GW2 gives an even more immersive experience than traditional quests by making it about what's happening in the world, not just the player.
Because DEs are communal, there aren't (that I know of anyway), any fedex DEs. They just don't really make sense. The game is also non-linear within a zone. A zone has a level range, but you can do anything within it. You should be exploring and then see a DE and help, not be led by the hand to the next area.
Here's a map. You can see there's chains of DEs because of a) cause and effect on the world progressing it, and b) to keep people working together longer, but you can do anything here in any order, anytime it's running.
The other thing about this game is the automentoring. If you go to do lower level content, the game automatically scales you down (so if you do a level 5 DE, you'll be like level 8). This not only prevents griefing by people 1-shotting lower level events, it also lets you replay anything in the game at any time. You can play with your friends regardless of level and be rewarded and challenged. You could hate the look of the Asura and not want to make one, but still do their entire newbie zone with a level 80 human if you wanted.
You might not believe it, but this is what not putting in a wall of text looks like for me. Anyway, I urge you to watch the video, and I'll be happy to answer any other questions you may have.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Nice, well-written, informative post Cali
I've been looking forward to GW2 for a while now.
That said, it does look like more of a themepark (granted, with some twists to the standard formula) as opposed to the virtual world / sandbox I really would like to see.
I remain hopeful, but won't be surprised if I'm disappointed.
I pretty much have the same reasons as you, to have GW2 as the only MMO worth being excited for right now. Though I would add on the fact that it's the only recent MMORPG to try and have both a balanced and highly competitive team based PvP and also support large scale, 3 sided PvP, over important capturable locations. Just learning about the current issues with SW:TOR's PvP, just shows how important is that ArenaNet are what they are doing and I just can't wait to see the finished product.
I'm sorry but imo, Dominus, Archeage, and even The Repop put GW2 to shame. TOR is a really fun game, so is Rift and I even enjoyed my time in WoW. I'm sure TSW and GW2 will be entertaining as well. But developer created content, no matter how well voiced or how intricate the chain of events, will never hold a candle to player created content in an mmorpg.
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
In the distance, a light shines through the darkness. As I stumble through the black towards that pinpoint of light, a crash against broken streetlamps and am forced through many twists and turns.
In the end, I make my way to the source of the light, bright and beautiful. And I am home.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
I too am putting all my chips into GW2. The playerbase will be huge, as it's F2P, and all the devout Rift and WoW players will also give it a go because of that. Worst case scenario, GW2 will for sure set a new standard.
Hopefully GW2 will demonstrate devotion to designing an MMO based on solid gameplay principles in such a thorough way, and be so obviously successful because of that approach, that future MMO designers will be snapped out of the hypnosis that seems to lead to trying to shoehorn a few interesting ideas into inherited MMO game structures. This, for me, is the real hope GW2 represents for the genre. Call it freedom to innovate or whatever you like. The key is convincing the people with the money that the only viable way to proceed with creating a virtual world is to start from easily definable gameplay concepts and make sure absolutely everything in the game serves those concepts, whether or not that journey leads to familiar territory.
Charr: Outta my way.
Human: What's your problem?
Charr: Your thin skin.
1. I would like to place a wager with you on TOR failing. While I think the game needs improvements there are alot of people out there who like themeparks. WoW's numbers attest to this and the star wars brand is enough for alot of people to keep playing. The game will never be a sandbox Get Over It Already, we know you like sandboxes (why are you not playing Ryzom right now?). The thought of TOR crashing and burning is just plain nonsense. What TOR will be is the last high budget mmo that plays in the traditional themepark way. Now is the time of the niche mmos that have alot of experimental features.
2. Every single mmo coming out does not need to be a sandbox, there is enough room for all models, its just high time that developers start expanding on features in themeparks. I personally am a fan of the sandpark concept ala the themepark with sandbox features, which is what ArcheAge is.
3. Wildstar will be what is needed, it is a themepark with sandbox features. So will EQNext (which will steal alot of features from Vanguard-mark my words). While I think ArcheAge is going to be a good game we should not expect it anytime soon in the US. Also check out Light and Dark 2. If the Wildstar team sticks to their guns and keeps in at least half of the things they are speaking about, this game is going to be the game that changes mmos on the western hemisphere forever. Do not write this one off.
4. The day of the true sandbox is dead, there will never be a SWG ever again, they simply cost too much to make. Unless its made by an independent, its not going to happen. There will never be a AAA or even AA dev who will take the financial risk of making a pure sandbox. Hell look at Skyrim, its actually more themeparky than Morrowind and Oblivion (and has the greatest popularity ahem sandbox mixed with themepark is the best way to go as I mentioned earlier in this post. I do no have the faith in indie devs to be able to make a true sandbox mmo, I think they are biting off more that they can chew. They should really consider making hybrids, at the end of the day this is a business you need to make money, you need to pay bills and you need to pay your people, and if you are doing this soley for the love well then enjoy doing it by yourself as you will not be able to retain people for long.
And not one of you true sandbox people are willing to fork up some cash to help these guys get started, otherwise you would be putting your money where your mouth is. Not one of you will do this. Want that dream game of yours to be made then help fund these devs who are trying to make what you want. I am sure they would more than appreciate the help. I am looking at you too Teala. Please name the indie sandbox devs that you are helping to make the game that you want. I am sure the Repopulation guys can always use some extra help, especially cash.
Otherwise shut the hell up.
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
I'm all for DEs and all but GW2 is not a new design paradigm. It IS themepark only less linear. I don't know why people think dynamic events are randomly generated and live out in the world. They're not. They are carefully scripted and planned and are nothing but quests except you don't have to talk to anyone to engage in it.
Now that's not saying it's a step backwards for MMOs or the like. I think it's a good step forward for building a community but some people make it seem like it's something bigger or greater than it actually is.
That is probably accurate enough if you are talking about a single event independent of its chain. Any given 'event' will play itself out largely like a quest in a standard MMO would. The fact that each event then causes new event states to form is definitely new, as is the fact that the entire PVE world works like that.
Charr: Outta my way.
Human: What's your problem?
Charr: Your thin skin.
It's a good thing there are enough games in the world for both someone like you and someone like I to have something we look forward to playing, rather than being forced to play the same thing together, then!
Haha yeah I guess you could put it that way
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
In my post, there's nothing about them being randomly generated. They're not. But at the same time, they don't always run. They might be on another part of the chain, or could be triggered by day/night, weather, or players. One they even said is triggered by players killing enough critters.
I'm sorry, but I think the parts in red are contradictory. Like quests they have objectives, and there still will be killing and collecting, but the presenation is totally different.
Traditional quests have a ton of issues. There's picking them up and turning them in. You don't get credit if you do it before you have the quest. There's no partial credit. There's the wall of text presentation. They don't actually happen in the world. They're generally linear. They're isolating because people need to be on the same stage. You need to be the same level as your friend to do them or you trivialize the content. They're individually unimportant due to having 20-30 in your log. They don't scale up if you do them with your friend. You have to compete with people you're not grouped with in order to do them. You generally can't repeat them. You generally can't fail them (you'll kill those 10 eventually).
Other games have tried to solve some of these problems but dynamic events attempt to solve all of them. It's really not just about DEs though, it's a whole world vision of cooperation and socialization. They want you to WANT to see other people. DEs are purely cooperative. There's no competition or tagging. Everyone gets full XP and loot for helping kill a mob which naturally makes people want to stick together so they can kill mobs faster and more safely. There's cross profession combos and anyone rezzing anyone so people can work together even ungrouped. There's the automentoring which I mentioned which not only prevents griefing, it keeps you from having to write off someone from your friends list because they're now 20 levels lower.
If you can't tell, I think DEs and GW2 are going to be pretty amazing.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
If you want something different, then go play something different. Some recent games have been proverbial WoW-clones and some have not. Don't whine about the former while ignoring the latter.
i believe you will be sorely let down my friend. no game ever lives up to the hype, niether will GW2 and unfortunately people keep buying/believing the hype. makinge GW2 out to be some second coming. It won't be. Will GW2 be a good game? probably. Will it be all your hopes and dreams and everythuing its been hyped to be? No
That works both ways, it all depends on the person and the amount of hype that person will unwillingly let through.
History has shown us hype can be deceptive in MMO's and i fully understand peoples reluctance when new hype comes through but luckly we have many sources of info to form our own opinion, something many lack to do and just buy whatever gets more press/hype.
Will it be all that i hoped for a fantasy MMO ? No, but it will fulfill this emptyness feeling i've been having in the genre more than any other title presented so far. That's good enough for me.
I do have room for deception once it arrives but not as much i've had with other titles.
I want to point out that just because the presentation is different doesn't change what they really are: quests. I agree they have taken steps forward to improve on the current model and if it's executed well enough it will be great. However, they are just that: quests and glorified ones at that.
That's all they are and there's no reason to blow it up into the second coming of Jesus because you will be sorely dissappointed when you try the game.
Lmao I' second this if all they did was throw a VO on the quest
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Having a blast playing SWTOR and looking forward to TSW, so nope GW2 isn't a last hope for me. Already having a lot of fun.
You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty -- Mahatma Gandhi
in skyrim, you can get quests by running up to the jarls and getting quests. or, sometimes, you can be wandering around and suddenly npcs kill each other or something and you get a quest. i am thinking of one town i went into where as soon as you load into the town, an npc murders another in front of you and gets cut down by the guards. the guards tell you there's "nothing to see here" and someone gives you a note to meet them somewhere else.
i know which of the quests i found more entertaining to receive.
and that's pretty much what it boils down to. the lateral thinking of the devs to make the WHOLE experience interesting. we all know we'll still be killing ten rats, but you can forgive a game a lot if it's entertaining. take, for example, swtor. that's also been accused of being entertaining for its voiced-over stuff. apparently the quests are still just kill ten rats, but the presentation's been getting everyone excited (i wouldn't know, ea hates australians - don't really blame them, either. we're pretty amazing so it's right they'd feel jealous).
for me, i'm interested enough to find it exciting. gw2's method looks very fluid.
Yea I remember seeing that, when that guy tried killing me I countered and sliced his head off, was very awesome. Then I picked up the letter or w/e something like that.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Dynamic Events are not just 'quests' with a different presentation. They represent a step in the direction of creating the holy grail of MMO mechanics, a persistent world that is dynamically affected by individual player actions. This was the original 'dream' behind MMORPGs, but due to the limitations of technology it has never been achieved. Sandbox RPGs represent the initial attempts at such a concept, but most of them only implement the FFA PvP aspect of it. EVE Online is probably the closest a Sandbox has gotten.
The idea of a dynamic yet persistent world is essentially trying to bring the world and scope of a single player sandbox RPG like Skyrim into the MMO realm. The crux of the problem is how to generate and present content to players that can affect the world, but accessible to everyone. If a quest involves saving a town from a dragon, then the completion of that quest prevents other people from saving the town because the dragon would no longer be there and the town would no longer be under attack. Themepark MMOs try to tackle this problem by making everything instanced or sharded, thus everyone can save the town from the dragon, but the cost is that the world is static and the player has no ability to affect the game world. Sandbox MMOs generally focus on PvP or economics, thus while the player can affect the world via faction domination, the actual game world itself still doesn't change much.
Dynamic Events are the solution that A-net came up with to tackle this problem. So a group a adventures can come across a town that's under attack and save it, affecting the world permanently. The caveat is that eventually the town can come under attack from the dragon again, or in the cases of more complex Dynamic Event chains, any number of scenarios can appear on the town. Thus, there's some semblance of player actions affecting the game world, but it doesn't prevent other people from experiencing the content (eventually).
This is something that has not been done before in any MMO, and if it succeeds, then it means that we're finally one step closer to the development of a true persistent yet dynamic online world.
We are jaded veterans. sadly almost no game but the first one that we played and loved playing could make us feel that way again. unless you can time travel back to that first MMO and remember being in awe off the virtual world and the great times, you wont regain it again.
You better off finding something that keep's your attention span for more then 7 months and enjoy it. Thats why so many MMO gamers demand this feature and that feature. it's all tied to that emotional bond with that first great MMO you loved playing.
It's dead jim. you can never get that feeling again sadly.