Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
If you hate running, you will love this game.
Lord.Bachus
Member RarePosts: 9,686
Its fun to see so many people complaining about all the traveling they have to do in SWTOR.
This makes it clear to me that GW2's world design was the right way to go. (as mounts is the same as running at +50%) teleportation is the way to go, once you have uncovered a teleportation point, you can allways return there at free will in GW2. Not so immersive, but 10 times the fun. running or riding the same road over and over again is not fun in my book.
(tough i still think that my first almost naked run from Freeport to Qeynos in EQ was one of the most exciting MMO moments i have ever had, but that was in another place and time)
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Comments
I agree, I think the R in SWTOR stands for running, cause you do way too much of it, too many aritfical walls to go around, to narrow of roads and not much to explore sadly .
Its a poor time sinnk IMO and a lazy one to extend a game. I love SWTOR but will admit to its faults and this is probably one of the biggest, please less running and more open land.
But like Anet has said they want to take out all that stuff thats boring, and to me it seems they are really doing a good job at this, I really do hope they manage to leavethe fun in the game and if they do , I hope this game shines above all games and enjoys great success.
swtor has teleporting
my web design: www.advancedws.com.au
So are the "dynamic" quests in GW2 set in stone by specific locations, or is it possible to begin a "random" quest by traveling the same road multiple times and let's say coming across a traveler npc who will trigger a quest?
That would be pretty dang cool
Ironically, I anticipate that in GW2 you will actually want to run most of the time, since you won't want to miss out on Dynamic Events along your path, where as in SWTOR, there is no value to running other than getting where you are going, which gets old in a game that makes you run back and forth ad nauseum in order to provide a time sink.
It will be good, though, for when you want to meet up with friends, have limited time and a particular place to get to, or when on short notice you need to log out for a bit and want to do some "house keeping" first.
I sort of feel bad for Bioware. They made some pretty large game zones, which people have been clamouring for as many titles have seen their world size shrink vs. the previous norm, but they've made it a detriment to the game by not providing frequent and easy rapid transit, or anything worth experiencing out in the world that doesn't have a quest associated with it. TOR could have hugely benefited from a GW2 style waypoint system, but it seems time sink out weighs fun.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
Lets hope Anet sees this and decides that fun > timesink.
What people want and what is good for an mmo is not always the same thing. People don't want to do anything for a top level char, people don't want to bother developing their character at all, people don't want to compete with others unless they have the upper hand.
As for the whole principle of proper crafting etc and how games don't even have it anymore because, people don't like anything that requires effort. We'll all be playing pong soon, with double width, stealth paddles.
-----
The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
Sad but true, I do wish games took more effort to progress, sad to see how easy things have become in games. Iagreethe game should not feel like a job, but it should be challenging to a certain degree or its no fun.
And no doing the same raid 13490238490238 times to get your helm is not what i consider a challenge.
The problem with this scenario is that people cannot agree on what is challenging, or what is fun.
I have no problem with exerting effort to progress in a game, but my line for when "effort" becomes "work" might be far short of yours. Multiple games will always have to exist and walk the fine line between catering to what different audiences prefer as their own comfort level of effort - which is good because we don't all want to be playing the same game the same way anyway!
Agreed on the raid comment, though.
The thing I have observed is that the "old days" of having to travel great distances by foot were good back then because a) the MMO community was small, and each of us had a smaller likelihood of having a spouse/family member/other loved one or friend playing alongside us, therefore the opportunity and DRIVE was there to meet other people. As a result, you played with whomever was near, and made friends that way.
These days, with the MMO market having expanded, we are more likely to play a game with existing friends, guildies, significant others or other family members, whom we want to stick with, and as a result the drive is not to "play with whoever's nearby" but "play near to the person of our choosing." This is where covering long distances becomes a liability; it is not merely inconvenient and a timesink, but prevents people from playing with the people of their choice. Again, it worked back in the day when the audience was different, but nowadays how many people would want to play with a stranger across the virtual world over their friends? Not many, I'd wager.
As you said, it was another place and time.
Basically what made traveling much fun in the eraly EQ is that there where no safe ways. You could get attacked eveywhere and that turned traveling through higher level zones a mini game. (combined with the fact that you really did not want to die)
You really cant compare current day MMO's with old timers like EQ. And as much fun(and frustration) as i had back then, i dont think i would go back if they tried the sell games with all the old fashioned features.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
I know it's not an MMO, but for me, Skyrim struck the right balance on traveling the world. You want to travel on foot, for the random encounters and to enjoy the world and discover new lairs, dungeons, etc... They still have fast travel to places you have visited before, with no cooldown timer, which you tend to use when you are traveling with focus and don't care to encounter anything on your journey, or just want to travel back home to store your loot and visit the merchants.
I think GW2 will strike a similar balance. You often will want to travel on foot, to encounter Dynamic Events and enjoy the world. Traveling on foot may still count as a time sink, but it's one of your choice and you can expect to enjoy the run.
TOR has got the balance all wrong, because most of the world (universe) just isn't very interesting and you really don't want to travel anywhere unless a quest is forcing you to do so. The game also loves the "fed ex" syndrome, where in the course of a bundle of quests, you may be forced to run back and forth many times between two or three points. It fills game time, but is generally not a fun thing for most and quickly becomes drudgery.
For me, in the early years of WoW, though quests had you running around a fair amount, the world was immersive and the voyage could be fun and even challenging and much of the world was worth seeing, even if you had seen the same zone a few times previous.
What is great about Guild Wars 2 is Arenanet wants you to do things because they are fun and you want to do them, rather than forcing you to do things you care not to do. That doesn't mean you don't work for things in the game, it just means that most things that require effort are fun to perform and offer some incentive to do so, with the game leaving it up to you to decide if it's something you want to expend effort and time on.
This applies to individual Dynamic Events as well. They provide the hook, but you can pass something by that doesn't interest you with out worrying that you need to do it in order to have enough content to level up, or as a prerequisite to some further quests that you really are going to want to pursue.
The Personal Story will give you great incentive to participate, but at least the path can branch as you play along and your path is influenced by decisions you make as part of character creation. Some people will pass on it completely and not be gated in their progression or access to other parts of the world. (TOR has a number of gates tied into the main quest/storyline. For instance, there is no way to get your ship other than to progress through the character's story, the same thing goes for companions).
Arenanet tries to remove barriers to fun and cooperation and seeks to encourage players to partake in content because it's fun and rewarding, rather than forcing you to do things you just don't care to do. You still have to work to earn things, but you have a lot of different paths you can take along the way. They seem to have confidence that the game offers enough content to allow you to plot your own path and arrive at the level cap, with out forcing you to follow a linear path. It's also nice to know that when they say from level 20 to 80, you can expect it to take about an hour and a half for each level, that time estimate doesn't include a large chunk of forced time sinks, but time spent doing things you hopefully will actually enjoy doing!
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
Travelling isn't boring. Travelling without anything interesting happening is boring. Teleportation doesn't break immersion anymore than running down an empty road for a fedex quest. Adding teleport to SWTOR would be the easy way to fix boredom. The better way would be to improve the world and quest design so I have good reasons to travel and there's something interesting to see along the way.
If the game world provides for something interesting to find, I'll walk gladly, teleport be damned. Your EQ example kinda stikes the same note, though in that case it was the anticipation of something happening that made it interesting.
This right here.
Remove any and all obstacles, inject casual mode FTW.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
Hey you two, I added some text in red for you guys. Hope that helps you understand a little better what's going on.
Always happy to help.
Actually I listed things I don't want to do, but am not oblivious to the notion that if a game has no goals it will have little encouragment to play. Or anything that is 'given' has no value in this type/genre of game. The quote is about what's good for an mmo, not me.
-----
The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
This right here.
Remove any and all obstacles, inject casual mode FTW.
Hey you two, I added some text in red for you guys. Hope that helps you understand a little better what's going on.
Always happy to help.
Actually I listed things I don't want to do, but am not oblivious to the notion that if a game has no goals it will have little encouragment to play. Or anything that is 'given' has no value in this type/genre of game. The quote is about what's good for an mmo, not me.
Luckilly you will have many goals in GW2, but they will be a bit different from what you where used to in most current MMOs.Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
There will be plenty of stuff that requires effort and overcoming challenge to obtain, that's covered and not an issue. What you are defending is forcing players to do stuff that's downright not fun and chore, and that's not acceptable in entertainment product. You really need to stop putting equation mark between "boring, time wasting" and "hard, requiring effort".
I look forward to not having the cooldowns though
I don't understand how removing tedium = casual MMO BOOO!
ArenaNet is looking like the sharpest developer in the industry atm, at least from where I'm sitting. They're getting rid of the stupid junk that isn't fun in MMORPG's. Good for them - they'll have my money while others won't.
Cuz damn, I'm sick of old-hat design.
BOYCOTTING EA / ORIGIN going forward.
There is still a faction of "old skool" mmogers who enjoy tedium for the sake of tedium in mmorpgs. I have played mmos since '99 with AC1 and have played a fair number of other mmos across the years. Removing tedium is one of the best things that can be done with the genre.
For the rest of the crowd, removing tedium =/= removing challenge.
Thats the entire Idea behind Dynamic Events is that if you walk down a road one day and then walk down the same road later that day or maybe on a different day there are always different event going in the same location. The town you just visited yesterday to buy more thread may be taken over by bandits today.
The idea behind the teleport though is that say you are quseting and you need to go back and empty your bags or resupply or train new skils or something you dont have to ride a taxi all the way back to town. You can just teleport there and they teleport right back to the waypoint closest to where you where playing at when you had to leave.
Also if a friend ask you to help them you dont have to spend 15 minutes riding the taxi all the way back to the space port... walking all the way to your ship... flying back to corescunt... walking all the way through the space port to the nearest taxi... riding that taxi all the way to where your friend needs your help... helping him for 10 minutes and then having to do it all over again to get back.
"Don't mistake a fun game for a good game... Checkers is fun to play but its not exactly the highest point of gaming design... and definatly not worth $60 plus $15 a month"
Don't have anything against travelling / running.
I only have against some quests composition - like go to x location kill 10 orcs go back to quest giver ,then he sent you to exact same location to kill blue orcs there...
Travelling itself - IS OK.
Making travel player back and forth in stupid manner - not ok.
To me, if a game doesn't have travelling in a manner of design that makes just walking around in the world interesting, the world is half dead.
Skyrim is a very good example. You don't *have to* travel, but when you do, interesting things start to happen. It's just content in and of itself; you do get some cool surprises. Thanks to that you can set yourself no goals and just go out there and get lost in the world.
The worst thing a game can do, in my opinion, is be bereft of suprises. If GW2 delivers on "If you just walk around, you'll see surprising things happening" it won't bother me in the least that it has teleporting.
Wouldn't you miss like half the 'content' in GW2 by skipping the walking? I mean isn't that how they give out quests inthis game, when you enter the place they are happening? If you never walk there will you ever get the quests? And if not, why would you ever go there if you dont have to?
GW2 looked to me to be the only one to get the idea of 'rewarding the explorer' right. Honestly I pitty anyone who plays GW2 that wants to avoid walking around, I think you will miss more than you will gain in saving the time.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
That's true, GW2 rewards exploration, and if you'll never walk, you'll miss about 99% of the game (since you have to walk to waypoints to unlock them). But that doesn't mean you'll want to be walking all the time, no exceptions. Fast travel isn't meant as replacement for exploring/walking, it's a tool to quickly join your friends, participate in content you have in mind, and skip areas you've already thoroughly explored.