Just fyi Venge. Casual games are casual, and I call them casual. Not childish. Casual. This is not entitlement.
But you do state they are not MMO's, are not worthy of the name, and are destroying the genre you like. You can state they are destroying what you like, I have no issue with that.
But saying they are not MMO's, when literally almost everything you did in past games you can do in modern games, is extremely elitist
They are not MMOs and they are destroying my genre. But they are not destroying THEIR genre, which is corpgs. Have you played Shadowbane or UO or SWG or EvE? Literally everything you can do there can be done in WoW and SWTOR and Rift? I no longer consider you to be arguing in good faith when you make a statement like that. It is patently untrue. Good day.
That is what makes you elitist. They are MMO's in every sense of the word, I have played SWG. In these games I can interact with thousands of people just like I did in those, I may not be able to form a formal group or raid with dozens or hundreds but I can interact with them through the market or an event that someone makes.
Anyone remember the lvl 1 gnome hogger event. This wasn't a formal raid or group, but it was what 50-60 lvl 1 gnomes all trying to take down hogger.
People still can plan big things. That most people don't doesn't mean the game is not an MMO. An MMO is not defined by what most people do or how most people play, it is defined by what you CAN do. Most people in Eve, UO, SWG, Shadowbane did not participate in raids with hundreds and hundreds of people, most people just did their own thing with their guild or a small group of friends - The same thing that is going on today.
Swtor does limit this with what is it 100 people to a zone, there is an argument to be made for a Corpg here. However it is still significantly different from a corpg..
Edit - this is the only argument on these boards that I do agree with. Almost everything you do in games 10 years ago you do today because the actual gameplay has changed so very very little. We are still playing the same game as 10 years ago with a different skin and people are just bored of it.
The size of the group is not at all the only difference between WoW clones and the things I listed. Crafting, local economy markets, player created buildings, world altering and many other things are also different.
Gnome hogger was pretty awesome, but that alone doesn't constitute mmorpg status.
Having specific accurate and descriptive terms for game types does not make me elitist. Pushing an elitist claim is dangerously close to ad populum.
That is what makes you elitist. They are MMO's in every sense of the word, I have played SWG. In these games I can interact with thousands of people just like I did in those, I may not be able to form a formal group or raid with dozens or hundreds but I can interact with them through the market or an event that someone makes.
Anyone remember the lvl 1 gnome hogger event. This wasn't a formal raid or group, but it was what 50-60 lvl 1 gnomes all trying to take down hogger.
People still can plan big things. That most people don't doesn't mean the game is not an MMO. An MMO is not defined by what most people do or how most people play, it is defined by what you CAN do. Most people in Eve, UO, SWG, Shadowbane did not participate in raids with hundreds and hundreds of people, most people just did their own thing with their guild or a small group of friends - The same thing that is going on today.
Swtor does limit this with what is it 100 people to a zone, there is an argument to be made for a Corpg here. However it is still significantly different from a corpg..
Edit - this is the only argument on these boards that I do agree with. Almost everything you do in games 10 years ago you do today because the actual gameplay has changed so very very little. We are still playing the same game as 10 years ago with a different skin and people are just bored of it.
{mod edit}
Once again, no. You are not an elitist if you disagree with me. You are an elitist if you put down other games simply because you disagree with them.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Just fyi Venge. Casual games are casual, and I call them casual. Not childish. Casual. This is not entitlement.
But you do state they are not MMO's, are not worthy of the name, and are destroying the genre you like. You can state they are destroying what you like, I have no issue with that.
But saying they are not MMO's, when literally almost everything you did in past games you can do in modern games, is extremely elitist
They are not MMOs and they are destroying my genre. But they are not destroying THEIR genre, which is corpgs. Have you played Shadowbane or UO or SWG or EvE? Literally everything you can do there can be done in WoW and SWTOR and Rift? I no longer consider you to be arguing in good faith when you make a statement like that. It is patently untrue. Good day.
I would have to disagree here in good faith of course. A CORPG is a competitive online role playing game - part of the genre's definition is that only the player and their group eixst in the instanced zone, as all zones are instanced. To this extent, something like, League of Legends or Diablo 3 would be a CORPG - as it's just you and your group. These new games coming out, although perhaps not on such as massive scale as games I used to play like Shadowbane, are indeed MMORPG's as it's not just you and your group. There are areas (and more then just hubs or cities) where you may roam about freely and met others.
The only definition I can find is outlined below at the moment due to the shut down (thanks SOPA), but this is always how I understood the genre to be:
A competitive online role-playing game (CORPG) differs from the standard massively multiplayer online role-playing game (MMORPG) in that they are less focused on the massive group experience. All outside areas are instanced, meaning that a player and his group are the only ones there, so that every player gets his or her own unique version of the game's story.
An example to disprove that games such as SWTOR are not a CORPG's, would be (In TOR) running through the Black Sun Area in Coruscant, I ran across several groups of other players while I was playing alone. In a CORPG, I would not have been able to see these folks. I'm sure you'll disagree... but what's new...lol.
Edit - this is the only argument on these boards that I do agree with. Almost everything you do in games 10 years ago you do today because the actual gameplay has changed so very very little. We are still playing the same game as 10 years ago with a different skin and people are just bored of it.
When I was in highschool back in 2000 I was playing Everquest fairly hardcore (I slept through classes and my gpa was LOLworthy... but don't worry I do great now). I also played football... why do I mention this?
Well anyone who's played football will tell you 2-a-days and 3-a-days (fairly intense practices) are not only tedious and difficult, but they also build a team... a community. Why? Shared suffering and shared effort brings people together.
If you talk to people (or even remember it yourself if you're like me) some of the best memories of these older games were when things went bad. We all have corpse run stories and how teams of people came to help; friends were made this way. People spent hours carefully crawling through dungeons; and succeeding or failing TOGETHER.
Today's MMORPGs lack the difficulty. I think because there's that lack of shared effort and shared suffering (don't get caught up on that word.. think shared bad stuff) therefore it stops or impedes a strong community from forming.
Without that shared experience people find it harder to relate to eachother. I'm not going to sit here and tell you the community back in the day was perfect, but people did find it easier to relate to eachother. That made the games better in the end.
Your thoughts?
I have plenty of those same experiences your talking about playing now becuase I found a decent guild and play with close friends for the last 9 years. That being said, I do find truth in what you're saying, but for a different reason.
I've said this a lot before, but I always go back to it. Things really haven't changed that much. We have. Those awesome memories you shared with friends during your first MMO will never be replaced. You'll chase the feeling through every new mmo that comes out looking to duplicate it. But you won't, you can't. I know this because I do it. I play EVERY Mmo that comes out looking for that "feeling", but after the newness wears.... it's never there. That's when I really realized this.
In my humble opinion, it's the reason everyone is so shitty around here and hates on every game that comes out. Because no matter when you came into gaming, be it Ultima, Eq1, Shadowbane, or WoW... nothing will ever be as good as that first time. Just my opinion though...
That's exactly what it is in my opinion also. Very well said!
I disagree. I got that feeling back when I played ATITD. And EvE. And various mmorts games. I will get it back as soon as a sandbox with a good economy and some new PvE comes out also. Meanwhile, a new round of Warring Factions is starting on Friday and thank god because OGame and all its clones blow. SpaceFed forever!!! The space mmorts genre has the same problems as the MMORPG genre. But just like in MMOs when awesome games come out I get back that same feeling I got from SpaceFed when I play amazing mmorts games.
Well I'm truly glad you can still get that feeliing when playing a new game. I personally never have had that feeling with any MMO since my first and will be shocked If I ever do.
I will say that I loved Everquest. It was actually not my first MMO (actually my 3rd). I've played a lot of P2P, and F2P MMORPGs since then, and I have to say Final Fantasy XI did actually bring some of that old Everquest feel back for me. Obviously it's a totally different game, I'm not looking for exact copies of anything I've played before, but that enjoyment you get from your favorite game CAN happen more than once.
If the shoe switched feet and all we got were old school and hardcore games, the outcry from the casuals would make the hardcore outcry seem like a whisper.
I doubt it. Casuals would just leave, and watch the MMO industry implode upon itself as they did so. The evidence is clear: how often do you see posts in the Eve forum demanding the game to be easier? What about MO? DF?
Casual gamers don't play those kinds of games, because they don't enjoy them. And by their very nature, should all MMO's no longer provide a game that they enjoy, casuals will leave through the door in which they came when WoW released.
That is what makes you elitist. They are MMO's in every sense of the word, I have played SWG. In these games I can interact with thousands of people just like I did in those, I may not be able to form a formal group or raid with dozens or hundreds but I can interact with them through the market or an event that someone makes.
Anyone remember the lvl 1 gnome hogger event. This wasn't a formal raid or group, but it was what 50-60 lvl 1 gnomes all trying to take down hogger.
People still can plan big things. That most people don't doesn't mean the game is not an MMO. An MMO is not defined by what most people do or how most people play, it is defined by what you CAN do. Most people in Eve, UO, SWG, Shadowbane did not participate in raids with hundreds and hundreds of people, most people just did their own thing with their guild or a small group of friends - The same thing that is going on today.
Swtor does limit this with what is it 100 people to a zone, there is an argument to be made for a Corpg here. However it is still significantly different from a corpg..
Edit - this is the only argument on these boards that I do agree with. Almost everything you do in games 10 years ago you do today because the actual gameplay has changed so very very little. We are still playing the same game as 10 years ago with a different skin and people are just bored of it.
no they are not.
I see the trend here. Basicaally if you disagree with VengeSunsoar view of how things are and stated those views as facts you are an elistist but he is able to state his views as facts.
no, I resort back to my orginal I think the person who is being the elistist is actually VengeSunsoar
Once again, no. You are not an elitist if you disagree with me. You are an elitist if you put down other games simply because you disagree with them.
You mean like claiming a certain style of game has no place in todays MMO marketplace, and claiming certain games have "stupid game mechanics" because its not the same as what one likes?
Again, thank you for proving my point.
Originally posted by Robsolf
Originally posted by toddze
If the shoe switched feet and all we got were old school and hardcore games, the outcry from the casuals would make the hardcore outcry seem like a whisper.
I doubt it. Casuals would just leave, and watch the MMO industry implode upon itself as they did so. The evidence is clear: how often do you see posts in the Eve forum demanding the game to be easier? What about MO? DF?
Casual gamers don't play those kinds of games, because they don't enjoy them. And by their very nature, should all MMO's no longer provide a game that they enjoy, casuals will leave through the door in which they came when WoW released.
And here we have more of the same. The industry will implode if games aren't made the way YOU like them, eh?
The industry would survive, the majority audience would just change. You really dont believe there are hardcore players who haven't quit because of the sea of casual games that have hit the market?
Just fyi Venge. Casual games are casual, and I call them casual. Not childish. Casual. This is not entitlement.
But you do state they are not MMO's, are not worthy of the name, and are destroying the genre you like. You can state they are destroying what you like, I have no issue with that.
But saying they are not MMO's, when literally almost everything you did in past games you can do in modern games, is extremely elitist
They are not MMOs and they are destroying my genre. But they are not destroying THEIR genre, which is corpgs. Have you played Shadowbane or UO or SWG or EvE? Literally everything you can do there can be done in WoW and SWTOR and Rift? I no longer consider you to be arguing in good faith when you make a statement like that. It is patently untrue. Good day.
I would have to disagree here in good faith of course. A CORPG is a competitive online role playing game - part of the genre's definition is that only the player and their group eixst in the instanced zone, as all zones are instanced. To this extent, something like, League of Legends or Diablo 3 would be a CORPG - as it's just you and your group. These new games coming out, although perhaps not on such as massive scale as games I used to play like Shadowbane, are indeed MMORPG's as it's not just you and your group. There are areas (and more then just hubs or cities) where you may roam about freely and met others.
The only definition I can find is outlined below at the moment due to the shut down (thanks SOPA), but this is always how I understood the genre to be:
A competitive online role-playing game (CORPG) differs from the standard massively multiplayer online role-playing game (MMORPG) in that they are less focused on the massive group experience. All outside areas are instanced, meaning that a player and his group are the only ones there, so that every player gets his or her own unique version of the game's story.
An example to disprove that SWTOR is not a CORPG, would be running through the Black Sun Area in Coruscant, I ran across several groups of other players while I was playing alone. In a CORPG, I would not have been able to see these folks. I'm sure you'll disagree... but what's new...lol.
That is actually a valid disagreement. Also wiki works fine if you just hit escape. I may tentatively concede that they are not pure corpgs if I decide to accept that definition. They are still not mmorpgs. I did start some debate earlier about giving them an alternate genre. Also Vanilla WoW was significantly more mmorpg than current WoW. It has absorbed many more non mmorpg features over its lifetime.
As for the SWTOR example, it is far more instanced and phase than previous games and perhaps arguments which apply to it as not being an MMO don't apply to WoW or other relatively more freeform games.
If the shoe switched feet and all we got were old school and hardcore games, the outcry from the casuals would make the hardcore outcry seem like a whisper.
I doubt it. Casuals would just leave, and watch the MMO industry implode upon itself as they did so. The evidence is clear: how often do you see posts in the Eve forum demanding the game to be easier? What about MO? DF?
Casual gamers don't play those kinds of games, because they don't enjoy them. And by their very nature, should all MMO's no longer provide a game that they enjoy, casuals will leave through the door in which they came when WoW released.
Their protest can be in the form of walking out, but ours can't because if vocal players walked out the industry would still be in no danger of crashing financially. If there were enough of our kind of player, obviously we would choose to use our money to convince a company to make an MMO more to our liking.
Once again, no. You are not an elitist if you disagree with me. You are an elitist if you put down other games simply because you disagree with them.
1. sorry that is not even close to what an 'elisit' is
2. define 'put down' that is a gray area as huge as the sun. Someone can say if you even question a feature that its unamerican and a 'put down'
and elitist is not someone who puts down others and elitist is someone who thinks they deserve better treatment because of who they are.
That is exatctly what elitist is. They dismiss, put down, insult other games simple they don't like them. They state they are childish and not true MMO's - that is elitism
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
That is what makes you elitist. They are MMO's in every sense of the word, I have played SWG. In these games I can interact with thousands of people just like I did in those, I may not be able to form a formal group or raid with dozens or hundreds but I can interact with them through the market or an event that someone makes.
Anyone remember the lvl 1 gnome hogger event. This wasn't a formal raid or group, but it was what 50-60 lvl 1 gnomes all trying to take down hogger.
People still can plan big things. That most people don't doesn't mean the game is not an MMO. An MMO is not defined by what most people do or how most people play, it is defined by what you CAN do. Most people in Eve, UO, SWG, Shadowbane did not participate in raids with hundreds and hundreds of people, most people just did their own thing with their guild or a small group of friends - The same thing that is going on today.
Swtor does limit this with what is it 100 people to a zone, there is an argument to be made for a Corpg here. However it is still significantly different from a corpg..
Edit - this is the only argument on these boards that I do agree with. Almost everything you do in games 10 years ago you do today because the actual gameplay has changed so very very little. We are still playing the same game as 10 years ago with a different skin and people are just bored of it.
no they are not.
I see the trend here. Basicaally if you disagree with VengeSunsoar view of how things are and stated those views as facts you are an elistist but he is able to state his views as facts.
no, I resort back to my orginal I think the person who is being the elistist is actually VengeSunsoar
Once again, no. You are not an elitist if you disagree with me. You are an elitist if you put down other games simply because you disagree with them.
You mean like claiming a certain style of game has no place in todays MMO marketplace, and claiming certain games have "stupid game mechanics" because its not the same as what one likes?
Again, thank you for proving my point.
Originally posted by Robsolf
Originally posted by toddze
If the shoe switched feet and all we got were old school and hardcore games, the outcry from the casuals would make the hardcore outcry seem like a whisper.
I doubt it. Casuals would just leave, and watch the MMO industry implode upon itself as they did so. The evidence is clear: how often do you see posts in the Eve forum demanding the game to be easier? What about MO? DF?
Casual gamers don't play those kinds of games, because they don't enjoy them. And by their very nature, should all MMO's no longer provide a game that they enjoy, casuals will leave through the door in which they came when WoW released.
And here we have more of the same. The industry will implode if games aren't made the way YOU like them, eh?
The industry would survive, the majority audience would just change. You really dont believe there are hardcore players who haven't quit because of the sea of casual games that have hit the market?
Once again no your point wast not proved. The furthest from it. I have never said the mechanics were stupid. The hardcores are saying that, you are disproving your own point.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by FrostWyrm ... snip ...Originally posted by Robsolf
Originally posted by toddze
If the shoe switched feet and all we got were old school and hardcore games, the outcry from the casuals would make the hardcore outcry seem like a whisper.
I doubt it. Casuals would just leave, and watch the MMO industry implode upon itself as they did so. The evidence is clear: how often do you see posts in the Eve forum demanding the game to be easier? What about MO? DF? Casual gamers don't play those kinds of games, because they don't enjoy them. And by their very nature, should all MMO's no longer provide a game that they enjoy, casuals will leave through the door in which they came when WoW released.
And here we have more of the same. The industry will implode if games aren't made the way YOU like them, eh? The industry would survive, the majority audience would just change. You really dont believe there are hardcore players who haven't quit because of the sea of casual games that have hit the market?
Robsolf is right. The genre would implode if all the casual players left. All the money in the current market is coming from the casual players. If they leave for greener pastures, the market will implode (shrink dramatically) past the point at which it's profitable to create an MMORPG at all. Imagine a genre where all the games are like Mortal Online or Darkfall. Community efforts to create games*. Going from a market of 16 million players to a market of a million or fewer players is indeed imploding.
* I don't think this is necessarily a bad idea. I've stated in another thread I think a dedicated bunch of volunteers could create something much better than Mortal Online, for a lot less money.
** edit ** Had to fix the quote boxes.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
If the shoe switched feet and all we got were old school and hardcore games, the outcry from the casuals would make the hardcore outcry seem like a whisper.
I doubt it. Casuals would just leave, and watch the MMO industry implode upon itself as they did so. The evidence is clear: how often do you see posts in the Eve forum demanding the game to be easier? What about MO? DF?
Casual gamers don't play those kinds of games, because they don't enjoy them. And by their very nature, should all MMO's no longer provide a game that they enjoy, casuals will leave through the door in which they came when WoW released.
And here we have more of the same. The industry will implode if games aren't made the way YOU like them, eh?
The industry would survive, the majority audience would just change. You really dont believe there are hardcore players who haven't quit because of the sea of casual games that have hit the market?
The vast majority of current MMO players are casual players. This is why most developers are designing games with them in mind. The data mining you can do to learn this stuff is undeniable.
the argument is made (by your side) that modern games are designed for casual players. Modern games would include games such as TOR, WoW, LotRO, Rift, etc. Pretty sure we agree on that point.
Those games carry the lion's share of paying subscribers in the MMO market.
The nature of their gaming preferences indicates that if they don't like a game, or even a whole gaming genre, they'll move to another genre that suits them. So, if you steer those games toward a hardcore philosophy, casuals will take their toys and go home.
When they do, the MMO market will implode. Investors will see over 50% in revenue losses and won't touch the genre with a 10 foot epeen pole. You'll see some independents dropping a few bucks here and there. Meanwhile, bigger houses will move on to something that HASN'T imploded.
Once again, no. You are not an elitist if you disagree with me. You are an elitist if you put down other games simply because you disagree with them.
1. sorry that is not even close to what an 'elisit' is
2. define 'put down' that is a gray area as huge as the sun. Someone can say if you even question a feature that its unamerican and a 'put down'
and elitist is not someone who puts down others and elitist is someone who thinks they deserve better treatment because of who they are.
That is exatctly what elitist is. They dismiss, put down, insult other games simple they don't like them. They state they are childish and not true MMO's - that is elitism
I would look it up if I have more time but that is NOT my understanding of an elisit it can be however a SIDE EFFECT of an elisit. An elisit is someone who thinks they deserve to go into the night club but not you. They may or may not make fun of your nightclub but them making fun of your nightclub is NOT what makes them an elisit. what makes them an elisist is not letting you into their nightclub.
HUGE difference.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
MMO's were meant to be harder, real life typse stuff in a game. MMO's were also a more grown up game. All until WOW came out and did something no other mmo has done. They targeted kids by dumbing down the mmo market, making games so easy an eight year old could play, and added so much eye candy.
MMO's today are nothing more than easy no-brainer console style rpg games with an I win button and full of nerfs because the little ones cant handle any type of chalenge full of cartoonish eye candy to attract children.
Save yourself and/or your parents 15/month and just pick up a console rpg game, same crap, just costs less and its easy with no pvp. And you dont have to worry about getting a booboo because you can cheat
I wish companies would go back to the old ways of mmo's. These dumbed down games called mmo's are released a dime a dozen and 99% of them fail. SWTOR for example, "ITS THE MOST EPIC GAME EVER" they said. Sure if you like to be led around like a dog on a leash and have everything done for you in easy mode. Dont think the newer generation even knows what a mmo is.
Crafting, a business to some, fun to other. Often put on hold for loot items and destroys the market/economy. Dont say its not true, name one mmo that had a good market since WOW. I cant think of one. Crafting should be important in mmo's, allows and makes people work together, each making profit, each working to better their items. SWTOR makes a crafting system and says its going to be great. Then adds in reusable items lol. Since when is a reusable item good for any economy or for crafters?
No Decay, seriously? You teach our kids things last forver? Allow no kind of penalty for playing stupid? Just zerg in with no strategy or skill. Not only that but that kills a good economy and market also. No repeat customers, no motivation to play in group or play better. Sorry if you die there should be a form of penalty, not a pat on the back and "get back in there" mentality.
Lack of features, to me this is a huge one. MMO's of before had hundreds of features. Now, lol, you barely see any. It is like a console rpg game. You have no options, no customization, no choices.
PVP, well, sucks in todays mmo's. Nothing more i can say here. If you played mmo's of before and play them today anyone with an open mind will know what im talking about. I dont pvp often, maybe 25% of the time. Just to get away from my daily routine. So no im not a pvp gankfest wanna beat up on a newbie. Its something i do when i want to take a break from the other things.
I can name about another dozen issues i have with new age so called mmo's. But any old timers will know these already.
I mean if you like the no-brainers, and the lack of a real game, wish to pay 15/month for the same thing you get free for your ps3, and dont like a challenge, then by all means keep supporting these EPIC (LOL) mmo's with their dumbed down gameplay.
Dont have to agree, but my opinions are valid. Sure you might not like player housing, crafting, pvp, some features. But they dont hurt you, only enhance your game play because you can chose to do it or not. Not putting in all these features just makes mmo's look trivial.
WoW opened the door for casuals and for devs to take shortcuts and shortcommings to please the new croud that had no former demands or sense of mmo quality.
Thus why alot of us here at mmorpg.com find WoW the big downfall of quality in mmorpgs.
WoW made the new market but also set the quality standard of the gaming quality to a all new low.
No. WOW is made to fix all the problems of EQ. Tedious wait, no instance, .....
I feel just as much challenge in modern games as I did in EQ. Yes the average mobs are easier than the average mob in EQ however I just go fight harder mobs. I also feel just as much community and immersion.
Classes that could solo in EQ from decently to very well were: Shaman, druid, necro, bard, monk, mage, paladin, dreadknight and later beastlord - so more than half of the classse. But Druid, Necro and Bard were kings.
EQ also the same type of community as today - most were good, some were jerks. Again they had to put a play nice policy because many were jerks. Someone earlier said they had to put it in because there were so many ways to grief. I agree there were a lot of ways to grief, and people who grief are jerks.
Roles were pretty diverse. EQ was always just a game, what made it more was just what you did with it, just like today's games.
Venge
Disagree totally. Sorry but please name me a game that had the community and immersion that EQ had? I have played them all and there is NO community. Yeah there are guilds but I'm not talking guilds. I'm talking community where your reputation made or broke you like it did in EQ. I'm talking a friends list that actually meant something. I'm talking total strangers meeting up and getting to know each other while they group. Not just a group of people completeing quest A then never seeing each other again.
Show me a single game where people get married in game and it's a HUGE server wide experience with the GM giving out cake. Name me a game where the GM's suddenly pop into a zone and raise hell until half the server shows up to defeat them and then some lucky person gets a unique item. Show me a game where some guy gives you something along the lines of SOW and you are greateful that you don't have to walk but can run. Seriously you are full of crap if you think any modern day MMO has even a remote chance at immersion or community. In order to have both you have to depend on the said community. Guilds don't count.
I played EQ from day one and I played for over 5 years until POP came out and ruined my ability to raid hard core (I was on a east coast server playing on west coast time - they keying killed me). I have played every major MMO after EQ as well. I raided hard core in WOW until WOTLK which made the game so easy my guild cleared every single raid mob in less than 2 weeks after getting enough up to 80. It was a joke and not worth my time anymore as there simply was not any challenge left.
We need a game like EQ was prior to POP but with upgraded graphics. No instances, no zone lines, no leading you by the hand, no auction houses and no fast travel. We need a world that the GM's participate in, people depend on one another to progress and where there is Risk vs Reward.
That is actually a valid disagreement. Also wiki works fine if you just hit escape. I may tentatively concede that they are not pure corpgs if I decide to accept that definition. They are still not mmorpgs. I did start some debate earlier about giving them an alternate genre. Also Vanilla WoW was significantly more mmorpg than current WoW. It has absorbed many more non mmorpg features over its lifetime.
As for the SWTOR example, it is far more instanced and phase than previous games and perhaps arguments which apply to it as not being an MMO don't apply to WoW or other relatively more freeform games.
Still focusing on DEFINITIONS?
Just say WOW and TORwhen you want to discuss that kind of games. I highly doubt the common usage of MMORPG will change to NOT include these games.
It is a lost cause trying to change the English language based on a few persons' effort.
Originally posted by Valkaern Originally posted by sanshi44 I dunno bout that Everquest 1 is going for over 12 years now and still makeing a good profit.
And would probably be doing better (I can say for sure for a few friends and I, but undoubtedly more) if it hadn't tried so hard in recent years to be something it's not, and landed so far from what it used to be. I've been doing the 14 day trial for EQ1. WOW (an expletive, not a game). Simply, "WOW." I do not recognize much of it. In 10 days time, I already have characters at level 20, 17, 15, and 13. TEN DAYS! I have not made use of the "mercenaries" they have available to help a player out. I did make use of their XP potions they gave me for free, though. Still, I did all this solo as there was next to nobody in any newbie starting zones. On the plus side, I did not have to fight other players for the mobs nor did I accidentally train anyone while running to nearest zone when I got in too deep.
I did this to see what changes had been made since 2004 (when I quit) and also to pass the time until my "EverQuest: Titanium Edition" arrives and I try old school EQ on an emulator server. I'll see if EQ was as good as I remember it, knowing full well there were reasons I quit
One thing I do remember, and fondly, is that one reason it took so long for me to level was the crafting. I did not even touch that during my trial play. Another reason is the travel time. This is a two-headed monster, though. Sure, it took longer to get from point A to point B, but I many times picked up a few more XP along the way The main reason it took so long is my alt-itis. I wanted to try everything! I had full character slots on multiple servers when I played, just to try all the starting zones and classes.
Is harder better? Totally depends upon the player's preference, doesn't it? How does each player define "Harder"?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Once again, no. You are not an elitist if you disagree with me. You are an elitist if you put down other games simply because you disagree with them.
1. sorry that is not even close to what an 'elisit' is
2. define 'put down' that is a gray area as huge as the sun. Someone can say if you even question a feature that its unamerican and a 'put down'
and elitist is not someone who puts down others and elitist is someone who thinks they deserve better treatment because of who they are.
That is exatctly what elitist is. They dismiss, put down, insult other games simple they don't like them. They state they are childish and not true MMO's - that is elitism
I would look it up if I have more time but that is NOT my understanding of an elisit it can be however a SIDE EFFECT of an elisit. An elisit is someone who thinks they deserve to go into the night club but not you. They may or may not make fun of your nightclub but them making fun of your nightclub is NOT what makes them an elisit. what makes them an elisist is not letting you into their nightclub.
HUGE difference.
Elitism is a belief, an attitude, and is shown through actions. They put down, insult... because they believe they are right and the others are childish - that is elitism. Putting down because they believe they are better.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
If the shoe switched feet and all we got were old school and hardcore games, the outcry from the casuals would make the hardcore outcry seem like a whisper.
I doubt it. Casuals would just leave, and watch the MMO industry implode upon itself as they did so. The evidence is clear: how often do you see posts in the Eve forum demanding the game to be easier? What about MO? DF?
Casual gamers don't play those kinds of games, because they don't enjoy them. And by their very nature, should all MMO's no longer provide a game that they enjoy, casuals will leave through the door in which they came when WoW released.
And here we have more of the same. The industry will implode if games aren't made the way YOU like them, eh?
The industry would survive, the majority audience would just change. You really dont believe there are hardcore players who haven't quit because of the sea of casual games that have hit the market?
Robsolf is right. The genre would implode if all the casual players left. All the money in the current market is coming from the casual players. If they leave for greener pastures, the market will implode (shrink dramatically) past the point at which it's profitable to create an MMORPG at all. Imagine a genre where all the games are like Mortal Online or Darkfall. Community efforts to create games*. Going from a market of 16 million players to a market of a million or fewer players is indeed imploding.
* I don't think this is necessarily a bad idea. I've stated in another thread I think a dedicated bunch of volunteers could create something much better than Mortal Online, for a lot less money.
** edit **
Had to fix the quote boxes.
The market wouldn't implode, it would shift. Many casuals would still try the new games and, as casual players often do, might subscribe for a month and leave to try a new game. Others would find games they like and play them casually. Others still would even become hardcore.
Today's market numbers are not just due to reduced difficulty in games. Gaming as a whole has expanded tremendously over the years. When new things come along (or things that are new to individuals), many jump on board, others dont.
When phones got tinier, a lot of people jumped on board, others didnt. When tablets came along, a lot of people jumped on board, others didnt. When MMOs became solo friendly, a lot of people jumped on board, others didn't. If MMOs become more group oriented, a lot of people will jump on board, others wont. Its how things just happen to work out.
Trends come and go, and yes, even repeat themselves sometimes. Its pretty unrealistic to think "X will always be this way, and if it changed it would disappear."
Their protest can be in the form of walking out, but ours can't because if vocal players walked out the industry would still be in no danger of crashing financially. If there were enough of our kind of player, obviously we would choose to use our money to convince a company to make an MMO more to our liking.
Exactly.
We can argue as much as we want on forums but all this is just moot.
I vote with my $$ and you vote with yours. We will see where the industry is going reacting to market forces. It is as simple as that.
The market wouldn't implode, it would shift. Many casuals would still try the new games and, as casual players often do, might subscribe for a month and leave to try a new game. Others would find games they like and play them casually. Others still would even become hardcore.
Today's market numbers are not just due to reduced difficulty in games. Gaming as a whole has expanded tremendously over the years. When new things come along (or things that are new to individuals), many jump on board, others dont.
When phones got tinier, a lot of people jumped on board, others didnt. When tablets came along, a lot of people jumped on board, others didnt. When MMOs became solo friendly, a lot of people jumped on board, others didn't. If MMOs become more group oriented, a lot of people will jump on board, others wont. Its how things just happen to work out.
Trends come and go, and yes, even repeat themselves sometimes. Its pretty unrealistic to think "X will always be this way, and if it changed it would disappear."
The trend is the a) people are getting busier, and b) they have MORE entertainment options. MMORPGs are competing with OTHER games, with OTHER forms of entertainment for people's attention.
I would NOT bet money on hard core games that requires a lot of commitment ever becoming the dominant and mainstream again. But again, no one knows for sure and we will see in the next few years.
The market wouldn't implode, it would shift. Many casuals would still try the new games and, as casual players often do, might subscribe for a month and leave to try a new game. Others would find games they like and play them casually. Others still would even become hardcore.
You really don't know. It has happened before.
The hard core computer war game market imploded. The graphical adventure game market imploded. There are still indie & small productions but no more AAA development in that two genre.
Comments
The size of the group is not at all the only difference between WoW clones and the things I listed. Crafting, local economy markets, player created buildings, world altering and many other things are also different.
Gnome hogger was pretty awesome, but that alone doesn't constitute mmorpg status.
Having specific accurate and descriptive terms for game types does not make me elitist. Pushing an elitist claim is dangerously close to ad populum.
Once again, no. You are not an elitist if you disagree with me. You are an elitist if you put down other games simply because you disagree with them.
I would have to disagree here in good faith of course. A CORPG is a competitive online role playing game - part of the genre's definition is that only the player and their group eixst in the instanced zone, as all zones are instanced. To this extent, something like, League of Legends or Diablo 3 would be a CORPG - as it's just you and your group. These new games coming out, although perhaps not on such as massive scale as games I used to play like Shadowbane, are indeed MMORPG's as it's not just you and your group. There are areas (and more then just hubs or cities) where you may roam about freely and met others.
The only definition I can find is outlined below at the moment due to the shut down (thanks SOPA), but this is always how I understood the genre to be:
A competitive online role-playing game (CORPG) differs from the standard massively multiplayer online role-playing game (MMORPG) in that they are less focused on the massive group experience. All outside areas are instanced, meaning that a player and his group are the only ones there, so that every player gets his or her own unique version of the game's story.
An example to disprove that games such as SWTOR are not a CORPG's, would be (In TOR) running through the Black Sun Area in Coruscant, I ran across several groups of other players while I was playing alone. In a CORPG, I would not have been able to see these folks. I'm sure you'll disagree... but what's new...lol.
That is the essence of it, I believe.
I will say that I loved Everquest. It was actually not my first MMO (actually my 3rd). I've played a lot of P2P, and F2P MMORPGs since then, and I have to say Final Fantasy XI did actually bring some of that old Everquest feel back for me. Obviously it's a totally different game, I'm not looking for exact copies of anything I've played before, but that enjoyment you get from your favorite game CAN happen more than once.
1. sorry that is not even close to what an 'elisit' is
2. define 'put down' that is a gray area as huge as the sun. Someone can say if you even question a feature that its unamerican and a 'put down'
and elitist is not someone who puts down others and elitist is someone who thinks they deserve better treatment because of who they are.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I doubt it. Casuals would just leave, and watch the MMO industry implode upon itself as they did so. The evidence is clear: how often do you see posts in the Eve forum demanding the game to be easier? What about MO? DF?
Casual gamers don't play those kinds of games, because they don't enjoy them. And by their very nature, should all MMO's no longer provide a game that they enjoy, casuals will leave through the door in which they came when WoW released.
You mean like claiming a certain style of game has no place in todays MMO marketplace, and claiming certain games have "stupid game mechanics" because its not the same as what one likes?
Again, thank you for proving my point.
And here we have more of the same. The industry will implode if games aren't made the way YOU like them, eh?
The industry would survive, the majority audience would just change. You really dont believe there are hardcore players who haven't quit because of the sea of casual games that have hit the market?
That is actually a valid disagreement. Also wiki works fine if you just hit escape. I may tentatively concede that they are not pure corpgs if I decide to accept that definition. They are still not mmorpgs. I did start some debate earlier about giving them an alternate genre. Also Vanilla WoW was significantly more mmorpg than current WoW. It has absorbed many more non mmorpg features over its lifetime.
As for the SWTOR example, it is far more instanced and phase than previous games and perhaps arguments which apply to it as not being an MMO don't apply to WoW or other relatively more freeform games.
Their protest can be in the form of walking out, but ours can't because if vocal players walked out the industry would still be in no danger of crashing financially. If there were enough of our kind of player, obviously we would choose to use our money to convince a company to make an MMO more to our liking.
That is exatctly what elitist is. They dismiss, put down, insult other games simple they don't like them. They state they are childish and not true MMO's - that is elitism
Once again no your point wast not proved. The furthest from it. I have never said the mechanics were stupid. The hardcores are saying that, you are disproving your own point.
I doubt it. Casuals would just leave, and watch the MMO industry implode upon itself as they did so. The evidence is clear: how often do you see posts in the Eve forum demanding the game to be easier? What about MO? DF?
Casual gamers don't play those kinds of games, because they don't enjoy them. And by their very nature, should all MMO's no longer provide a game that they enjoy, casuals will leave through the door in which they came when WoW released.
And here we have more of the same. The industry will implode if games aren't made the way YOU like them, eh?
The industry would survive, the majority audience would just change. You really dont believe there are hardcore players who haven't quit because of the sea of casual games that have hit the market?
Robsolf is right. The genre would implode if all the casual players left. All the money in the current market is coming from the casual players. If they leave for greener pastures, the market will implode (shrink dramatically) past the point at which it's profitable to create an MMORPG at all. Imagine a genre where all the games are like Mortal Online or Darkfall. Community efforts to create games*. Going from a market of 16 million players to a market of a million or fewer players is indeed imploding.
* I don't think this is necessarily a bad idea. I've stated in another thread I think a dedicated bunch of volunteers could create something much better than Mortal Online, for a lot less money.
** edit **
Had to fix the quote boxes.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The vast majority of current MMO players are casual players. This is why most developers are designing games with them in mind. The data mining you can do to learn this stuff is undeniable.
the argument is made (by your side) that modern games are designed for casual players. Modern games would include games such as TOR, WoW, LotRO, Rift, etc. Pretty sure we agree on that point.
Those games carry the lion's share of paying subscribers in the MMO market.
The nature of their gaming preferences indicates that if they don't like a game, or even a whole gaming genre, they'll move to another genre that suits them. So, if you steer those games toward a hardcore philosophy, casuals will take their toys and go home.
When they do, the MMO market will implode. Investors will see over 50% in revenue losses and won't touch the genre with a 10 foot epeen pole. You'll see some independents dropping a few bucks here and there. Meanwhile, bigger houses will move on to something that HASN'T imploded.
I would look it up if I have more time but that is NOT my understanding of an elisit it can be however a SIDE EFFECT of an elisit. An elisit is someone who thinks they deserve to go into the night club but not you. They may or may not make fun of your nightclub but them making fun of your nightclub is NOT what makes them an elisit. what makes them an elisist is not letting you into their nightclub.
HUGE difference.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
MMO's were meant to be harder, real life typse stuff in a game. MMO's were also a more grown up game. All until WOW came out and did something no other mmo has done. They targeted kids by dumbing down the mmo market, making games so easy an eight year old could play, and added so much eye candy.
MMO's today are nothing more than easy no-brainer console style rpg games with an I win button and full of nerfs because the little ones cant handle any type of chalenge full of cartoonish eye candy to attract children.
Save yourself and/or your parents 15/month and just pick up a console rpg game, same crap, just costs less and its easy with no pvp. And you dont have to worry about getting a booboo because you can cheat
I wish companies would go back to the old ways of mmo's. These dumbed down games called mmo's are released a dime a dozen and 99% of them fail. SWTOR for example, "ITS THE MOST EPIC GAME EVER" they said. Sure if you like to be led around like a dog on a leash and have everything done for you in easy mode. Dont think the newer generation even knows what a mmo is.
Crafting, a business to some, fun to other. Often put on hold for loot items and destroys the market/economy. Dont say its not true, name one mmo that had a good market since WOW. I cant think of one. Crafting should be important in mmo's, allows and makes people work together, each making profit, each working to better their items. SWTOR makes a crafting system and says its going to be great. Then adds in reusable items lol. Since when is a reusable item good for any economy or for crafters?
No Decay, seriously? You teach our kids things last forver? Allow no kind of penalty for playing stupid? Just zerg in with no strategy or skill. Not only that but that kills a good economy and market also. No repeat customers, no motivation to play in group or play better. Sorry if you die there should be a form of penalty, not a pat on the back and "get back in there" mentality.
Lack of features, to me this is a huge one. MMO's of before had hundreds of features. Now, lol, you barely see any. It is like a console rpg game. You have no options, no customization, no choices.
PVP, well, sucks in todays mmo's. Nothing more i can say here. If you played mmo's of before and play them today anyone with an open mind will know what im talking about. I dont pvp often, maybe 25% of the time. Just to get away from my daily routine. So no im not a pvp gankfest wanna beat up on a newbie. Its something i do when i want to take a break from the other things.
I can name about another dozen issues i have with new age so called mmo's. But any old timers will know these already.
I mean if you like the no-brainers, and the lack of a real game, wish to pay 15/month for the same thing you get free for your ps3, and dont like a challenge, then by all means keep supporting these EPIC (LOL) mmo's with their dumbed down gameplay.
Dont have to agree, but my opinions are valid. Sure you might not like player housing, crafting, pvp, some features. But they dont hurt you, only enhance your game play because you can chose to do it or not. Not putting in all these features just makes mmo's look trivial.
No. WOW is made to fix all the problems of EQ. Tedious wait, no instance, .....
Disagree totally. Sorry but please name me a game that had the community and immersion that EQ had? I have played them all and there is NO community. Yeah there are guilds but I'm not talking guilds. I'm talking community where your reputation made or broke you like it did in EQ. I'm talking a friends list that actually meant something. I'm talking total strangers meeting up and getting to know each other while they group. Not just a group of people completeing quest A then never seeing each other again.
Show me a single game where people get married in game and it's a HUGE server wide experience with the GM giving out cake. Name me a game where the GM's suddenly pop into a zone and raise hell until half the server shows up to defeat them and then some lucky person gets a unique item. Show me a game where some guy gives you something along the lines of SOW and you are greateful that you don't have to walk but can run. Seriously you are full of crap if you think any modern day MMO has even a remote chance at immersion or community. In order to have both you have to depend on the said community. Guilds don't count.
I played EQ from day one and I played for over 5 years until POP came out and ruined my ability to raid hard core (I was on a east coast server playing on west coast time - they keying killed me). I have played every major MMO after EQ as well. I raided hard core in WOW until WOTLK which made the game so easy my guild cleared every single raid mob in less than 2 weeks after getting enough up to 80. It was a joke and not worth my time anymore as there simply was not any challenge left.
We need a game like EQ was prior to POP but with upgraded graphics. No instances, no zone lines, no leading you by the hand, no auction houses and no fast travel. We need a world that the GM's participate in, people depend on one another to progress and where there is Risk vs Reward.
Still focusing on DEFINITIONS?
Just say WOW and TORwhen you want to discuss that kind of games. I highly doubt the common usage of MMORPG will change to NOT include these games.
It is a lost cause trying to change the English language based on a few persons' effort.
I've been doing the 14 day trial for EQ1. WOW (an expletive, not a game). Simply, "WOW." I do not recognize much of it. In 10 days time, I already have characters at level 20, 17, 15, and 13. TEN DAYS! I have not made use of the "mercenaries" they have available to help a player out. I did make use of their XP potions they gave me for free, though. Still, I did all this solo as there was next to nobody in any newbie starting zones. On the plus side, I did not have to fight other players for the mobs nor did I accidentally train anyone while running to nearest zone when I got in too deep.
I did this to see what changes had been made since 2004 (when I quit) and also to pass the time until my "EverQuest: Titanium Edition" arrives and I try old school EQ on an emulator server. I'll see if EQ was as good as I remember it, knowing full well there were reasons I quit
One thing I do remember, and fondly, is that one reason it took so long for me to level was the crafting. I did not even touch that during my trial play. Another reason is the travel time. This is a two-headed monster, though. Sure, it took longer to get from point A to point B, but I many times picked up a few more XP along the way
The main reason it took so long is my alt-itis. I wanted to try everything! I had full character slots on multiple servers when I played, just to try all the starting zones and classes.
Is harder better? Totally depends upon the player's preference, doesn't it? How does each player define "Harder"?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Elitism is a belief, an attitude, and is shown through actions. They put down, insult... because they believe they are right and the others are childish - that is elitism. Putting down because they believe they are better.
The market wouldn't implode, it would shift. Many casuals would still try the new games and, as casual players often do, might subscribe for a month and leave to try a new game. Others would find games they like and play them casually. Others still would even become hardcore.
Today's market numbers are not just due to reduced difficulty in games. Gaming as a whole has expanded tremendously over the years. When new things come along (or things that are new to individuals), many jump on board, others dont.
When phones got tinier, a lot of people jumped on board, others didnt. When tablets came along, a lot of people jumped on board, others didnt. When MMOs became solo friendly, a lot of people jumped on board, others didn't. If MMOs become more group oriented, a lot of people will jump on board, others wont. Its how things just happen to work out.
Trends come and go, and yes, even repeat themselves sometimes. Its pretty unrealistic to think "X will always be this way, and if it changed it would disappear."
Exactly.
We can argue as much as we want on forums but all this is just moot.
I vote with my $$ and you vote with yours. We will see where the industry is going reacting to market forces. It is as simple as that.
The trend is the a) people are getting busier, and b) they have MORE entertainment options. MMORPGs are competing with OTHER games, with OTHER forms of entertainment for people's attention.
I would NOT bet money on hard core games that requires a lot of commitment ever becoming the dominant and mainstream again. But again, no one knows for sure and we will see in the next few years.
You really don't know. It has happened before.
The hard core computer war game market imploded. The graphical adventure game market imploded. There are still indie & small productions but no more AAA development in that two genre.
So implosion is not impossible.