There seems to be a resounding notion that raiding is... well, just not fun?
I raided for quite a while in WoW from 40-man Molten Core to 10-man Lich King and beyond in Cataclysm, I have even lead raids a few times and looking back now, I too think it wasnt worth the effort and time involved.
What did I raid for?
I upgraded my gear only to have it made obsolete with the next content patch...
I did encounters over and over for one brief moment of elation when we finally killed that boss...
I had to compete with the people in my guild for loot...
I hardly ever had a chance to socialize on raids...
I wasted hour waiting for one or two people to show up, because we needed their specific class...
Raiding is a chore, It's as simple as that. It's the preverbial carrot-on-a-stick for MMO's and I am sick of it.
I truly hope ArenaNet can bring back that sense of worth back to players and focus on building friends, not loot rivals.
"The problem with quotes from the Internet is that it's almost impossible to validate their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln
1) loot of course 2) feel good to top dps meter ... It is not easy competing with so many 3) wow raid fights r epic and innovative. Like the deathwing fight. Many cool parts.
Raids use to be a chore and too much work. With lfr, it is a lot more enjoyable now.
I raid to have power over others. At times I have been the Main Tank and raid leader of an organized guild. It is a position of authority. Can't get that playing solo or running 5 mans in the dungeon finder.
I found it quite rewarding playing my Protection Paladin and running PUG Heroics, I got a lot of satisfaction when I was able to explain strategies and tactics to random players, and I got even more satisfaction from the feedback I got.
In fact, I used to run Heroics just for an ego boost some times because I would always get comments like "OMG, this tank is awesome.", "I'm so glad I found you, I wanted this boss dead for so long." or a simple "I love you, Paladin."
I think there is a lot more satisfaction to be gained from overcoming hard bosses or challenges in a small group rather than facerolling content with a dozen plus other players.
"The problem with quotes from the Internet is that it's almost impossible to validate their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln
I'm in the don't-do-raids camp (various reasons, loner, not motivated by extreme challenge), but I will do highly repetitive daily chains. Mostly it's because I chase progression - when I max out my level or skills, I need to branch out into other minigames. I'd prefer more random/emergent content, but while I'm waiting to find it, I make do with what's offered.
I raid for various reasons. Firstly, I raid because the dungeons are epic and complex with multiple passageways sometimes requiring the group to split up and divide tasks among the members. Secondly, I raid because the encounters and the story revolving around the raid are some of the best and most interesting a game usually offers. Thirdly, I raid because I like solving puzzles and encounters that require the cooperation of an entire group. Finally, I raid so that I can advance my character, making him more powerful and resourceful.
Raids are the biggest, most exciting, and most grandiose of encounters that an MMO can offer. Granted, bigger does not always mean better, but sometimes it does. Taking down a huge monster, by myself, without the need for any teamwork mechanics or even a healer around... it just cheapens the fight. If I can fight that creature alone, it clearly wasn't that tough in the first place. 40 of us facing down Onyxia was way better than any dragon I could have fought alone.
The only exception I've found thus far is when the enemy is more of a personal rival. If you have history with them, a 1v1 fight is more satisfying. Because then it's not the fight mechanics that make the encounter exciting, it's the emotional resonance of a storyline.
Important facts: 1. Free to Play games are poorly made. 2. Casuals are not all idiots, but idiots call themselves casuals. 3. Great solo and group content are not mutually exclusive, but they suffer when one is shoved into the mold of the other. The same is true of PvP and PvE. 4. Community is more important than you think.
Raids could be designed much better imo. There are some cool ones, but the idea of grinding them, or anything, is absurd. I still think DDO has the best raids and dungeons in any game, just my opinon.
Raids are the biggest, most exciting, and most grandiose of encounters that an MMO can offer. Granted, bigger does not always mean better, but sometimes it does. Taking down a huge monster, by myself, without the need for any teamwork mechanics or even a healer around... it just cheapens the fight. If I can fight that creature alone, it clearly wasn't that tough in the first place. 40 of us facing down Onyxia was way better than any dragon I could have fought alone.
The only exception I've found thus far is when the enemy is more of a personal rival. If you have history with them, a 1v1 fight is more satisfying. Because then it's not the fight mechanics that make the encounter exciting, it's the emotional resonance of a storyline.
agreed, the main point why i at least tried to raid it was because i wanted to prove my strength fighting a boss, if it dropped something usefull i would ask for it, the problem with raiding is that it became from fun to work, nowadays people raid in order to get loot only, for example you play WoW and no one is going to respond if you ask for a raid team if it isnt an endgame raid, that's pitifull.
raiding became boring from the moment it became important for progression, or at least when the playerbase became less roleplaying and more pro PvP, that's one of the reasons i hate PvP in most MMOs, suddenly raiding was important in order to get equipment so you could at least not die in a BG so you could get the tokens for PvP gear..........it sucks....
Raids could be designed much better imo. There are some cool ones, but the idea of grinding them, or anything, is absurd. I still think DDO has the best raids and dungeons in any game, just my opinon.
Agreed, but I feel their older raids and dungeons are better than the newer ones.
I raid only because there is absolutely nothing other then pvp to do end game. Case-in-point WoW and other themepark games that have the gear treadmill only think that dungeon crawling is the single thing people want their endgame to be. They completely ignore the exploration, rp, random event crowd like we don't exist or aren't important. From where i'm sitting after voting only 3% more people did it for the challenge then those of us who did it because there is absolutely nothing else but pvp to do. Where is the rest of the pve content in these games?
I found it quite rewarding playing my Protection Paladin and running PUG Heroics, I got a lot of satisfaction when I was able to explain strategies and tactics to random players, and I got even more satisfaction from the feedback I got.
In fact, I used to run Heroics just for an ego boost some times because I would always get comments like "OMG, this tank is awesome.", "I'm so glad I found you, I wanted this boss dead for so long." or a simple "I love you, Paladin."
I think there is a lot more satisfaction to be gained from overcoming hard bosses or challenges in a small group rather than facerolling content with a dozen plus other players.
Actually if i could find 9-24 others with this mindset i would probably raid a ton more now..When Molten Core first came out i loved it..really hard encounters which took good teamwork to overcome..hey our guild RP'd all encounters even the trash packs and it was fun! - for me loot was always just a bonus (i was the main healer in our MC team and probably recieved less loot than anyone else due to people still had crappier stuff than i so i passed always)
Gearscore and Vent in a way ruined the experience of raiding for me..if someone is doing really crap damage but is trying their best i prefer that over someone overgeared that just makes the challenge nonexistent,,,vent just isnt my thing and being such a common requirement (handicap to me) is not so good.
I see the mentality is 'i want the easy way to the end' a lot more now..i mean on the WoW server i am on you can only join 80% of the raid groups if you are overgeared for the content...even ridicoulous like 'lfm ICC must be lvl 85 ilevel 380' /sigh
It is hard though to lay the blame anywhere..i understand why people want dps meters/gearscores but it feels like it is taken to the extremes at times...even in WoWs looking for raid..you get people calling to kick randoms for pulling under 20k dps...i mean really even in random groups for a raiding for dummies setting?
Raids are the biggest, most exciting, and most grandiose of encounters that an MMO can offer. Granted, bigger does not always mean better, but sometimes it does. Taking down a huge monster, by myself, without the need for any teamwork mechanics or even a healer around... it just cheapens the fight. If I can fight that creature alone, it clearly wasn't that tough in the first place. 40 of us facing down Onyxia was way better than any dragon I could have fought alone.
The only exception I've found thus far is when the enemy is more of a personal rival. If you have history with them, a 1v1 fight is more satisfying. Because then it's not the fight mechanics that make the encounter exciting, it's the emotional resonance of a storyline.
Actually no they are not, the biggest most exciting and grandiose of encounters will be open world boss fights without grouping, treating it like an open world event rather then an instance where you must form a large trinity focused group is a poor design and it just reinforces the whole gear treadmill crapspackle that we have to put up with right now.
Scaling World events will be the new raids and they will require simply that you show up in order to participate. The old crappy genre is dead and the numbers speak for themselves (the number of subs for the most recent mmo released that had the old model of gear treadmill and instanced raids) people are simply tired of them.
Some could argue that the new world event with up to 100 players present could be considered a raid but it's not the op was specifically talking about the instanced version we are all familiar with in every themepark mmo.
I don't because it has no meaning to it. Most mmo's with raids are pointless, I mean why bother getting the gear from raids when there is no uses left for it. Take wow and swtor for example, raiding gear doesn't have pvp stats, namely the special pvp-only stat, so that pretty much means its useless for pvp. IMO every mmo needs a good pvp endgame, because pve raids just are pointless without it. Take daoc for example, one of the few mmo's that did endgame right, you had raids(before spellmaking etc) then you'd use the hard-earned raid gear for realm vs realm pvp, and it worked great, it also worked great because you didn't have to pvp, you could just pve raid if your happy with it. Bascally daoc's endgame was so good because it went both ways, compared to wow/swtor where its one or the other with pve/pvp, insted of daoc's way where you could go BOTH ways. I am also sick of mmo's having factions and then no real pvp aspect, I mean i you ain;t gonna have facton vs faction pvp what the hell is the point of the faction system in the first place? Especally in swtor where each faction goes thru the same planets usually just in a diff order. AT least in wow you had totally diffrent zones. Sadly due to the pvp-only gear swtor/wow has its too late really for these to change, but future mmo's could go better. I dunno I don't see the point myself spending weeks sometimes months for example to get all the raid gear you want when there is nothing to use it for. More pve raids do not count since its just the exact same thing repeating itself over and over endlessly.. How Blizzard tricks people into buying into it is beyond me but I must say they are geniuses at it.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
And then there's the killer problem that I don't see a way to address, even if you could build a new game from scratch. If I'm going to play a game, I want the outcome to depend on something I did. If you need 40 people (or 56 or 24 or whatever; the number varies by game, and sometimes by raid within a single game, but the precise number doesn't matter so long as it is large) for a raid, then one person probably doesn't make much of a difference.
Huh, well you are locking yourself out of a shitload of games with that complaint. Pretty much any large scale team game. I
I think I've quoted the part that you're referring to.
Some years ago, I played Infantry, and the Mechanized Skirmish zone there was 50 on 50 pvp. That's pretty large scale, I think. And I liked that.
Even if I didn't have that much influence on whether my team won a match or not, I did have a lot of influence on things that happened locally. Players spread out all over the map, and if there were only two or four or seven players (total) in the area where I was, then I could have considerable effect on what happened in that area. Maybe I'd capture a flag for my team, or it would be my fault that my team lost that flag.
But how do you do that with forty players hacking away at one artificially stupid boss? Even if it's a bunch of enemies that spread out and have to be killed simultaneously, is it really so satisfying if you handle your part perfectly, but others mess up and your raid wipes and you get no loot? In some zones of Infantry, it was, because winning and losing a match weren't really that important and you didn't need loot.
Raids are the biggest, most exciting, and most grandiose of encounters that an MMO can offer. Granted, bigger does not always mean better, but sometimes it does. Taking down a huge monster, by myself, without the need for any teamwork mechanics or even a healer around... it just cheapens the fight. If I can fight that creature alone, it clearly wasn't that tough in the first place. 40 of us facing down Onyxia was way better than any dragon I could have fought alone.
The only exception I've found thus far is when the enemy is more of a personal rival. If you have history with them, a 1v1 fight is more satisfying. Because then it's not the fight mechanics that make the encounter exciting, it's the emotional resonance of a storyline.
If that's so, then why were WoW dungeon runs hardly ever memorable for anything other than fighting over who get what loot?
For what it's worth, the PVE battle that I find the most memorable was the second time I did The Frost Gate (sixth mission of the Guild Wars Prophecies campaign) in easy mode, and that was me and five henchmen. It was five years ago, but what made it memorable was the near-miraculous comeback after I was all but certain that I had failed the mission.
I dont Raid. never have probably never will. most raiders Ive known take the game waaay to seriously and it becomes like a 2nd job to them. no thanks. thats not why i game.
Watch your thoughts; they become words. Watch your words; they become actions. Watch your actions; they become habits. Watch your habits; they become character. Watch your character; it becomes your destiny. Lao-Tze
If that's so, then why were WoW dungeon runs hardly ever memorable for anything other than fighting over who get what loot?
For what it's worth, the PVE battle that I find the most memorable was the second time I did The Frost Gate (sixth mission of the Guild Wars Prophecies campaign) in easy mode, and that was me and five henchmen. It was five years ago, but what made it memorable was the near-miraculous comeback after I was all but certain that I had failed the mission.
WoW dungeons SUCK period. Try playing a dungeon in DDO, now that's fun.
If that's so, then why were WoW dungeon runs hardly ever memorable for anything other than fighting over who get what loot?
For what it's worth, the PVE battle that I find the most memorable was the second time I did The Frost Gate (sixth mission of the Guild Wars Prophecies campaign) in easy mode, and that was me and five henchmen. It was five years ago, but what made it memorable was the near-miraculous comeback after I was all but certain that I had failed the mission.
WoW dungeons SUCK period. Try playing a dungeon in DDO, now that's fun.
Perhaps off topic but I have to say that DDO dungeons are the best I've played in an mmo.
As far as raiding is concerned, 90% of the people I've played with raided for the loot. I used to like it but because of the encounters and the feeling that came with defeating the encounter with a bunch of other people. I stopped enjoying it after TBC in WoW though. I've never had the desire to raid since.
Raiding is only as fun as the guild you are in. Generally if you have a fun and awesome guild even crappy raid content can be a pleasure to do.
In Rift it was a nightmare to do raids in my guild and seriously became something that was dreaded by everyone even though it would only be a one night clear.
In FFXI raiding was so much fun it would be the highlight of most peoples weeks where they got to discuss what they've done to change the way the play and compare it to their peers. It was a social gathering where people came together to essentially learn how to play their classes better.
At the end of the day raiding is only as fun as the company you keep though. When it's just as rewarding to see a friend get a piece of gear as it is to get one yourself.
Comments
There seems to be a resounding notion that raiding is... well, just not fun?
I raided for quite a while in WoW from 40-man Molten Core to 10-man Lich King and beyond in Cataclysm, I have even lead raids a few times and looking back now, I too think it wasnt worth the effort and time involved.
What did I raid for?
I upgraded my gear only to have it made obsolete with the next content patch...
I did encounters over and over for one brief moment of elation when we finally killed that boss...
I had to compete with the people in my guild for loot...
I hardly ever had a chance to socialize on raids...
I wasted hour waiting for one or two people to show up, because we needed their specific class...
Raiding is a chore, It's as simple as that. It's the preverbial carrot-on-a-stick for MMO's and I am sick of it.
I truly hope ArenaNet can bring back that sense of worth back to players and focus on building friends, not loot rivals.
"The problem with quotes from the Internet is that it's almost impossible to validate their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln
1) loot of course
2) feel good to top dps meter ... It is not easy competing with so many
3) wow raid fights r epic and innovative. Like the deathwing fight. Many cool parts.
Raids use to be a chore and too much work. With lfr, it is a lot more enjoyable now.
I found it quite rewarding playing my Protection Paladin and running PUG Heroics, I got a lot of satisfaction when I was able to explain strategies and tactics to random players, and I got even more satisfaction from the feedback I got.
In fact, I used to run Heroics just for an ego boost some times because I would always get comments like "OMG, this tank is awesome.", "I'm so glad I found you, I wanted this boss dead for so long." or a simple "I love you, Paladin."
I think there is a lot more satisfaction to be gained from overcoming hard bosses or challenges in a small group rather than facerolling content with a dozen plus other players.
"The problem with quotes from the Internet is that it's almost impossible to validate their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln
I'm in the don't-do-raids camp (various reasons, loner, not motivated by extreme challenge), but I will do highly repetitive daily chains. Mostly it's because I chase progression - when I max out my level or skills, I need to branch out into other minigames. I'd prefer more random/emergent content, but while I'm waiting to find it, I make do with what's offered.
The term raiding for me comes from DAOC, that was the only raiding to do, besides legion but that was pretty rare.
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Raids are the biggest, most exciting, and most grandiose of encounters that an MMO can offer. Granted, bigger does not always mean better, but sometimes it does. Taking down a huge monster, by myself, without the need for any teamwork mechanics or even a healer around... it just cheapens the fight. If I can fight that creature alone, it clearly wasn't that tough in the first place. 40 of us facing down Onyxia was way better than any dragon I could have fought alone.
The only exception I've found thus far is when the enemy is more of a personal rival. If you have history with them, a 1v1 fight is more satisfying. Because then it's not the fight mechanics that make the encounter exciting, it's the emotional resonance of a storyline.
Important facts:
1. Free to Play games are poorly made.
2. Casuals are not all idiots, but idiots call themselves casuals.
3. Great solo and group content are not mutually exclusive, but they suffer when one is shoved into the mold of the other. The same is true of PvP and PvE.
4. Community is more important than you think.
Raids could be designed much better imo. There are some cool ones, but the idea of grinding them, or anything, is absurd. I still think DDO has the best raids and dungeons in any game, just my opinon.
agreed, the main point why i at least tried to raid it was because i wanted to prove my strength fighting a boss, if it dropped something usefull i would ask for it, the problem with raiding is that it became from fun to work, nowadays people raid in order to get loot only, for example you play WoW and no one is going to respond if you ask for a raid team if it isnt an endgame raid, that's pitifull.
raiding became boring from the moment it became important for progression, or at least when the playerbase became less roleplaying and more pro PvP, that's one of the reasons i hate PvP in most MMOs, suddenly raiding was important in order to get equipment so you could at least not die in a BG so you could get the tokens for PvP gear..........it sucks....
Agreed, but I feel their older raids and dungeons are better than the newer ones.I raid only because there is absolutely nothing other then pvp to do end game. Case-in-point WoW and other themepark games that have the gear treadmill only think that dungeon crawling is the single thing people want their endgame to be. They completely ignore the exploration, rp, random event crowd like we don't exist or aren't important. From where i'm sitting after voting only 3% more people did it for the challenge then those of us who did it because there is absolutely nothing else but pvp to do. Where is the rest of the pve content in these games?
Actually if i could find 9-24 others with this mindset i would probably raid a ton more now..When Molten Core first came out i loved it..really hard encounters which took good teamwork to overcome..hey our guild RP'd all encounters even the trash packs and it was fun! - for me loot was always just a bonus (i was the main healer in our MC team and probably recieved less loot than anyone else due to people still had crappier stuff than i so i passed always)
Gearscore and Vent in a way ruined the experience of raiding for me..if someone is doing really crap damage but is trying their best i prefer that over someone overgeared that just makes the challenge nonexistent,,,vent just isnt my thing and being such a common requirement (handicap to me) is not so good.
I see the mentality is 'i want the easy way to the end' a lot more now..i mean on the WoW server i am on you can only join 80% of the raid groups if you are overgeared for the content...even ridicoulous like 'lfm ICC must be lvl 85 ilevel 380' /sigh
It is hard though to lay the blame anywhere..i understand why people want dps meters/gearscores but it feels like it is taken to the extremes at times...even in WoWs looking for raid..you get people calling to kick randoms for pulling under 20k dps...i mean really even in random groups for a raiding for dummies setting?
Actually no they are not, the biggest most exciting and grandiose of encounters will be open world boss fights without grouping, treating it like an open world event rather then an instance where you must form a large trinity focused group is a poor design and it just reinforces the whole gear treadmill crapspackle that we have to put up with right now.
Scaling World events will be the new raids and they will require simply that you show up in order to participate. The old crappy genre is dead and the numbers speak for themselves (the number of subs for the most recent mmo released that had the old model of gear treadmill and instanced raids) people are simply tired of them.
Some could argue that the new world event with up to 100 players present could be considered a raid but it's not the op was specifically talking about the instanced version we are all familiar with in every themepark mmo.
I don't because it has no meaning to it. Most mmo's with raids are pointless, I mean why bother getting the gear from raids when there is no uses left for it. Take wow and swtor for example, raiding gear doesn't have pvp stats, namely the special pvp-only stat, so that pretty much means its useless for pvp. IMO every mmo needs a good pvp endgame, because pve raids just are pointless without it. Take daoc for example, one of the few mmo's that did endgame right, you had raids(before spellmaking etc) then you'd use the hard-earned raid gear for realm vs realm pvp, and it worked great, it also worked great because you didn't have to pvp, you could just pve raid if your happy with it. Bascally daoc's endgame was so good because it went both ways, compared to wow/swtor where its one or the other with pve/pvp, insted of daoc's way where you could go BOTH ways. I am also sick of mmo's having factions and then no real pvp aspect, I mean i you ain;t gonna have facton vs faction pvp what the hell is the point of the faction system in the first place? Especally in swtor where each faction goes thru the same planets usually just in a diff order. AT least in wow you had totally diffrent zones. Sadly due to the pvp-only gear swtor/wow has its too late really for these to change, but future mmo's could go better. I dunno I don't see the point myself spending weeks sometimes months for example to get all the raid gear you want when there is nothing to use it for. More pve raids do not count since its just the exact same thing repeating itself over and over endlessly.. How Blizzard tricks people into buying into it is beyond me but I must say they are geniuses at it.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!
I think I've quoted the part that you're referring to.
Some years ago, I played Infantry, and the Mechanized Skirmish zone there was 50 on 50 pvp. That's pretty large scale, I think. And I liked that.
Even if I didn't have that much influence on whether my team won a match or not, I did have a lot of influence on things that happened locally. Players spread out all over the map, and if there were only two or four or seven players (total) in the area where I was, then I could have considerable effect on what happened in that area. Maybe I'd capture a flag for my team, or it would be my fault that my team lost that flag.
But how do you do that with forty players hacking away at one artificially stupid boss? Even if it's a bunch of enemies that spread out and have to be killed simultaneously, is it really so satisfying if you handle your part perfectly, but others mess up and your raid wipes and you get no loot? In some zones of Infantry, it was, because winning and losing a match weren't really that important and you didn't need loot.
If that's so, then why were WoW dungeon runs hardly ever memorable for anything other than fighting over who get what loot?
For what it's worth, the PVE battle that I find the most memorable was the second time I did The Frost Gate (sixth mission of the Guild Wars Prophecies campaign) in easy mode, and that was me and five henchmen. It was five years ago, but what made it memorable was the near-miraculous comeback after I was all but certain that I had failed the mission.
Then why do you reply to this thread? The question is not "Why don't you raid?"
I dont Raid. never have probably never will. most raiders Ive known take the game waaay to seriously and it becomes like a 2nd job to them. no thanks. thats not why i game.
Watch your thoughts; they become words.
Watch your words; they become actions.
Watch your actions; they become habits.
Watch your habits; they become character.
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
Lao-Tze
WoW dungeons SUCK period. Try playing a dungeon in DDO, now that's fun.
Perhaps off topic but I have to say that DDO dungeons are the best I've played in an mmo.
As far as raiding is concerned, 90% of the people I've played with raided for the loot. I used to like it but because of the encounters and the feeling that came with defeating the encounter with a bunch of other people. I stopped enjoying it after TBC in WoW though. I've never had the desire to raid since.
Raiding is only as fun as the guild you are in. Generally if you have a fun and awesome guild even crappy raid content can be a pleasure to do.
In Rift it was a nightmare to do raids in my guild and seriously became something that was dreaded by everyone even though it would only be a one night clear.
In FFXI raiding was so much fun it would be the highlight of most peoples weeks where they got to discuss what they've done to change the way the play and compare it to their peers. It was a social gathering where people came together to essentially learn how to play their classes better.
At the end of the day raiding is only as fun as the company you keep though. When it's just as rewarding to see a friend get a piece of gear as it is to get one yourself.