Crafting works in a sandbox game, but a themepark game where the whole game is nothing but combat, not so much. If you make a virtual world with a robust crafting system, you can absolutely play nothing but a crafter full time and have a blast. I kept an account open on SWG just to craft and run a shop.
___________________________ Have flask; will travel.
Crafting to me should be for both vanity and minor stat improvements. Many MMORPGs that I've looked at have things like the ability to change your item model to look like another item model. Crafting could easily take advantage of that to make gear that looks awesome, instead of just looking like a bunch of rags. The stat part of the gear should probably just be more of a side thing for if you haven't upgraded in awhile. Nobody wants to be forced into buying a major upgrade.
Thats not crafting then, its fashion. Fashion is not the extent of crafting. At best its a small part.
This is what the previous poster meant when he said that crafting in modern mmos is made for people who don't like crafting.
If you craft things you don't need, it is still crafting.
All I'm saying is that if crafting is more of a diversion, fueled by the demand for fashion or some other social purpose, then it doesn't get in the way of play. This allows people to play the game, make money as they please, and then swing back around to the crafters for when they got some spare cash to throw around. However, I still think that some stats should be included on items and some professions should be able to break down items into other goods (disenchanting for an example) so that items can sell for other reasons.
I don't think making professions a diversion is for people who hate professions. I think that making professions a diversion is for people who hate buying from the auction house to play the game.
Fashion is a tiny subset of crafting. Just like raiding is a tiny subset of combat.
You keep saying crafting gets in the way of the game. You wouldn't think it was in the way if you didn't hate crafting.
Would you rather I said people who don't enjoy crafting, rather than hate it? Given that people who hate crafting and people who don't enjoy crafting consistently ask for the same type of crafting system, the one you are advocating, does it really make a difference which description I use?
The only reason to advocate making one aspect of rpgs a diversion is so that you don't have to do it. And the only reason you don't want to do it is because you don't like it.
You can call what you describe a crafting system, but its a crafting system for people who don't like crafting.
Crafting is by far one of the things i love to do in MMOs. IMO i belive crafting should be hard to do. Makeing those that truly want to spend the time to become some of the best crafters can do just that. Make those that want to dabble in it make some of the worst items in the game while those of us that work very hard at it make the best items in the game.
How do you make this work? Who the hell knows. But i will say this. I loved that we crafters were sout out by name in VG. Questions would go out over the sever asking " anyone know someone that can make Thestrian Thatches?" or " Need the name of a crafter that can make a sail for a Qualian Gallion" or just random hottness that was needed and only the best of the best could make.
Crafting needs to be for CRAFTERS! not for the masses.
Just wanted to add this. I use to be on the best Outiftters in VG ( back when there were still more then 2 servers lol ) and i would get mail daily with orders for Rope, Mast Riggings, Sails, Thatches, Cloth Combines. you name it i had a steady flow of work for people on my server. From House Builders to Boat Builders to people just wanted a set of gear made. ( swamp armor / rivits) iv seens left VG but i belive i have upwards of 400 plat between 5 toons.
this is what community is all about. Not having a crafting system so easy you yourself could have 6 master crafters with max recipes and never need the services of anyone else. if thats how you choose to play a MMO then your playing the wrong type of game.
Crafting is by far one of the things i love to do in MMOs. IMO i belive crafting should be hard to do. Makeing those that truly want to spend the time to become some of the best crafters can do just that. Make those that want to dabble in it make some of the worst items in the game while those of us that work very hard at it make the best items in the game.
How do you make this work? Who the hell knows. But i will say this. I loved that we crafters were sout out by name in VG. Questions would go out over the sever asking " anyone know someone that can make Thestrian Thatches?" or " Need the name of a crafter that can make a sail for a Qualian Gallion" or just random hottness that was needed and only the best of the best could make.
Crafting needs to be for CRAFTERS! not for the masses.
Just wanted to add this. I use to be on the best Outiftters in VG ( back when there were still more then 2 servers lol ) and i would get mail daily with orders for Rope, Mast Riggings, Sails, Thatches, Cloth Combines. you name it i had a steady flow of work for people on my server. From House Builders to Boat Builders to people just wanted a set of gear made. ( swamp armor / rivits) iv seens left VG but i belive i have upwards of 400 plat between 5 toons.
this is what community is all about. Not having a crafting system so easy you yourself could have 6 master crafters with max recipes and never need to services of anyone else. if thats how you choose to play a MMO then your playing the wrong type of game.
People don't want to play MMOs, they want to play lobby base coop games. MMORPGs take too much time and effort.
I too dream of a game with awesome crafting but fat chance we will ever see it except in small population indie games.
People don't want to play MMOs, they want to play lobby base coop games. MMORPGs take too much time and effort.
I too dream of a game with awesome crafting but fat chance we will ever see it except in small population indie games.
Sad but true. It seems even AA is goin the way of the "Create All" tab. Im sure there are elements to crafting in that game that will make it somewhat of a chalenge but doesent take away from the Stapels style of crafting. For those of you that dont know what that means.....
People don't want to play MMOs, they want to play lobby base coop games. MMORPGs take too much time and effort.
I too dream of a game with awesome crafting but fat chance we will ever see it except in small population indie games.
Sad but true. It seems even AA is goin the way of the "Create All" tab. Im sure there are elements to crafting in that game that will make it somewhat of a chalenge but doesent take away from the Stapels style of crafting. For those of you that dont know what that means.....
There some problems with non staples crafting though. What would you replace it with?
I guess you could go ATITD style and have little activities for crafting. But what would the affect be? Would crafting a sword and failing at the game mean just failing? Would you get bonuses for doing it really well?
I feel like, much like other skill raising, in any system where you have progression you are going to get grind. People are going to grind it and people who don't have the time or inclination won't be able to compete.
Also if you make crafting possible for casuals to achieve at, power players will push way beyond them, and if you make it take a while to craft an item, casuals won't be able to do it.
People don't want to play MMOs, they want to play lobby base coop games. MMORPGs take too much time and effort.
I too dream of a game with awesome crafting but fat chance we will ever see it except in small population indie games.
Sad but true. It seems even AA is goin the way of the "Create All" tab. Im sure there are elements to crafting in that game that will make it somewhat of a chalenge but doesent take away from the Stapels style of crafting. For those of you that dont know what that means.....
There some problems with non staples crafting though. What would you replace it with?
I guess you could go ATITD style and have little activities for crafting. But what would the affect be? Would crafting a sword and failing at the game mean just failing? Would you get bonuses for doing it really well?
I feel like, much like other skill raising, in any system where you have progression you are going to get grind. People are going to grind it and people who don't have the time or inclination won't be able to compete.
Also if you make crafting possible for casuals to achieve at, power players will push way beyond them, and if you make it take a while to craft an item, casuals won't be able to do it.
I dont want casuals to do it. Im tired of the entitlement movement. Reminds me of how kids are comming up no adays. They get ribbins and awards for just showing up to things now insted or erning them. A 12th place trophy? come on now.
Not everyone should be able to craft. Just like not everone should be able to raid or PVP. Now if you want to put in the time and effort them sure, you can achive high lvl crafter status. But if you just want to mas buy mats of the broker and 1-300 in an afternoon then hit the bricks.
People don't want to play MMOs, they want to play lobby base coop games. MMORPGs take too much time and effort.
I too dream of a game with awesome crafting but fat chance we will ever see it except in small population indie games.
Sad but true. It seems even AA is goin the way of the "Create All" tab. Im sure there are elements to crafting in that game that will make it somewhat of a chalenge but doesent take away from the Stapels style of crafting. For those of you that dont know what that means.....
There some problems with non staples crafting though. What would you replace it with?
I guess you could go ATITD style and have little activities for crafting. But what would the affect be? Would crafting a sword and failing at the game mean just failing? Would you get bonuses for doing it really well?
I feel like, much like other skill raising, in any system where you have progression you are going to get grind. People are going to grind it and people who don't have the time or inclination won't be able to compete.
Also if you make crafting possible for casuals to achieve at, power players will push way beyond them, and if you make it take a while to craft an item, casuals won't be able to do it.
I dont want casuals to do it. Im tired of the entitlement movement. Reminds me of how kids are comming up no adays. They get ribbins and awards for just showing up to things now insted or erning them. A 12th place trophy? come on now.
Not everyone should be able to craft. Just like not everone should be able to raid or PVP. Now if you want to put in the time and effort them sure, you can achive high lvl crafter status. But if you just want to mas buy mats of the broker and 1-300 in an afternoon then hit the bricks.
Fair enough. But how do you want to set crafting up? Times between crafts? While crafting for many hours not being able to do anything else? Minigames?
People don't want to play MMOs, they want to play lobby base coop games. MMORPGs take too much time and effort.
I too dream of a game with awesome crafting but fat chance we will ever see it except in small population indie games.
Sad but true. It seems even AA is goin the way of the "Create All" tab. Im sure there are elements to crafting in that game that will make it somewhat of a chalenge but doesent take away from the Stapels style of crafting. For those of you that dont know what that means.....
There some problems with non staples crafting though. What would you replace it with?
I guess you could go ATITD style and have little activities for crafting. But what would the affect be? Would crafting a sword and failing at the game mean just failing? Would you get bonuses for doing it really well?
I feel like, much like other skill raising, in any system where you have progression you are going to get grind. People are going to grind it and people who don't have the time or inclination won't be able to compete.
Also if you make crafting possible for casuals to achieve at, power players will push way beyond them, and if you make it take a while to craft an item, casuals won't be able to do it.
I dont want casuals to do it. Im tired of the entitlement movement. Reminds me of how kids are comming up no adays. They get ribbins and awards for just showing up to things now insted or erning them. A 12th place trophy? come on now.
Not everyone should be able to craft. Just like not everone should be able to raid or PVP. Now if you want to put in the time and effort them sure, you can achive high lvl crafter status. But if you just want to mas buy mats of the broker and 1-300 in an afternoon then hit the bricks.
Fair enough. But how do you want to set crafting up? Times between crafts? While crafting for many hours not being able to do anything else? Minigames?
Your ganna have to refer to the " Who the hell knows" protion of my first post LOL.
But i wish a had a good answer for you bro. All i know is crafting is to easy. so for me anything that makes it harder for those that dont truly want to craft im all for. grinding doesent mean anything to me.
i max lvled toons on RO so im all good with the grinding. But im my perfect world of crafting? It would be a system that deters those that dont want to truly envest time and effort into it.
Crafting to me should be for both vanity and minor stat improvements. Many MMORPGs that I've looked at have things like the ability to change your item model to look like another item model. Crafting could easily take advantage of that to make gear that looks awesome, instead of just looking like a bunch of rags. The stat part of the gear should probably just be more of a side thing for if you haven't upgraded in awhile. Nobody wants to be forced into buying a major upgrade.
Thats not crafting then, its fashion. Fashion is not the extent of crafting. At best its a small part.
This is what the previous poster meant when he said that crafting in modern mmos is made for people who don't like crafting.
If you craft things you don't need, it is still crafting.
All I'm saying is that if crafting is more of a diversion, fueled by the demand for fashion or some other social purpose, then it doesn't get in the way of play. This allows people to play the game, make money as they please, and then swing back around to the crafters for when they got some spare cash to throw around. However, I still think that some stats should be included on items and some professions should be able to break down items into other goods (disenchanting for an example) so that items can sell for other reasons.
I don't think making professions a diversion is for people who hate professions. I think that making professions a diversion is for people who hate buying from the auction house to play the game.
Fashion is a tiny subset of crafting. Just like raiding is a tiny subset of combat.
You keep saying crafting gets in the way of the game. You wouldn't think it was in the way if you didn't hate crafting.
Would you rather I said people who don't enjoy crafting, rather than hate it? Given that people who hate crafting and people who don't enjoy crafting consistently ask for the same type of crafting system, the one you are advocating, does it really make a difference which description I use?
The only reason to advocate making one aspect of rpgs a diversion is so that you don't have to do it. And the only reason you don't want to do it is because you don't like it.
You can call what you describe a crafting system, but its a crafting system for people who don't like crafting.
Crafting is getting in the way of the game I said? I thought I said that the auction house gets in the way. The middle man! People play the action house, making prices skyrocket to unnessessary amounts. They even monopolize items. They can only exploit items that are in demand. What is more in demand than something that is required to play the game?
Crafting to me should be for both vanity and minor stat improvements. Many MMORPGs that I've looked at have things like the ability to change your item model to look like another item model. Crafting could easily take advantage of that to make gear that looks awesome, instead of just looking like a bunch of rags. The stat part of the gear should probably just be more of a side thing for if you haven't upgraded in awhile. Nobody wants to be forced into buying a major upgrade.
Thats not crafting then, its fashion. Fashion is not the extent of crafting. At best its a small part.
This is what the previous poster meant when he said that crafting in modern mmos is made for people who don't like crafting.
If you craft things you don't need, it is still crafting.
All I'm saying is that if crafting is more of a diversion, fueled by the demand for fashion or some other social purpose, then it doesn't get in the way of play. This allows people to play the game, make money as they please, and then swing back around to the crafters for when they got some spare cash to throw around. However, I still think that some stats should be included on items and some professions should be able to break down items into other goods (disenchanting for an example) so that items can sell for other reasons.
I don't think making professions a diversion is for people who hate professions. I think that making professions a diversion is for people who hate buying from the auction house to play the game.
Fashion is a tiny subset of crafting. Just like raiding is a tiny subset of combat.
You keep saying crafting gets in the way of the game. You wouldn't think it was in the way if you didn't hate crafting.
Would you rather I said people who don't enjoy crafting, rather than hate it? Given that people who hate crafting and people who don't enjoy crafting consistently ask for the same type of crafting system, the one you are advocating, does it really make a difference which description I use?
The only reason to advocate making one aspect of rpgs a diversion is so that you don't have to do it. And the only reason you don't want to do it is because you don't like it.
You can call what you describe a crafting system, but its a crafting system for people who don't like crafting.
Crafting is getting in the way of the game I said? I thought I said that the auction house gets in the way. The middle man! People play the action house, making prices skyrocket to unnessessary amounts. They even monopolize items. They can only exploit items that are in demand. What is more in demand than something that is required to play the game?
You literally said:
"All I'm saying is that if crafting is more of a diversion, fueled by the demand for fashion or some other social purpose, then it doesn't get in the way of play. "
People don't want to play MMOs, they want to play lobby base coop games. MMORPGs take too much time and effort.
I too dream of a game with awesome crafting but fat chance we will ever see it except in small population indie games.
Sad but true. It seems even AA is goin the way of the "Create All" tab. Im sure there are elements to crafting in that game that will make it somewhat of a chalenge but doesent take away from the Stapels style of crafting. For those of you that dont know what that means.....
There some problems with non staples crafting though. What would you replace it with?
I guess you could go ATITD style and have little activities for crafting. But what would the affect be? Would crafting a sword and failing at the game mean just failing? Would you get bonuses for doing it really well?
I feel like, much like other skill raising, in any system where you have progression you are going to get grind. People are going to grind it and people who don't have the time or inclination won't be able to compete.
Also if you make crafting possible for casuals to achieve at, power players will push way beyond them, and if you make it take a while to craft an item, casuals won't be able to do it.
I dont want casuals to do it. Im tired of the entitlement movement. Reminds me of how kids are comming up no adays. They get ribbins and awards for just showing up to things now insted or erning them. A 12th place trophy? come on now.
Not everyone should be able to craft. Just like not everone should be able to raid or PVP. Now if you want to put in the time and effort them sure, you can achive high lvl crafter status. But if you just want to mas buy mats of the broker and 1-300 in an afternoon then hit the bricks.
Fair enough. But how do you want to set crafting up? Times between crafts? While crafting for many hours not being able to do anything else? Minigames?
Your ganna have to refer to the " Who the hell knows" protion of my first post LOL.
But i wish a had a good answer for you bro. All i know is crafting is to easy. so for me anything that makes it harder for those that dont truly want to craft im all for. grinding doesent mean anything to me.
i max lvled toons on RO so im all good with the grinding. But im my perfect world of crafting? It would be a system that deters those that dont want to truly envest time and effort into it.
I am fine with grinding also. Just wasn't sure if you were.
I like all aspects of the game I am playing to be good, PvE, PvP, Crafting, Harvesting, Exploring, and anything on the side.
I like to do different things, if a game I am playing is very limited, I will probably stop playing it sooner rather than later.
I liked Vanguards designs, just too bad they had such a rough start. I liked the harvesting (common/rare/ultra rare nodes, and group harvesting), the crafting was very good imo and it was useful and intigrated raiding into it, in a good way. The Pve/classes were good, the PvP had some problems, but I enjoyed it...I also like to dabble in Diplomacy here and there to break things up.
All the side stuff felt 'worth' my time, and it kept me wanting to play, until SoE didn't seem to want to play along that is and people left the PvP servers when they decommited to working on PvP...
It is the last game that I felt truely had a good overall concept, wish it could of launched the way it was when I left, I think it would of had good numbers for a long time.
I do not craft to be rich or anything, I usually craft and harvest to help the guild I am in, and I make everything for free...As long as the member isn't a jerk that seems to just be using everyone...Then I am a little busy...
Neither. It should be a separate track and fully fledged game in and of itself. It should not be mandantory that people be or use products from crafters but crafting should be both useful and rewarding.
Those two requirements are mutually exclusive.
You are a possessor of loot drop privilege.
Players who prefer loot drops never have to consider whether crafting can be rewarding while producing items that are inferior to loot drops.
Noone who cares about crafting could have said that without the contradiction destroying their mind.
If you can get the same or better gear from lootdrops than crafting cannot be useful. If it is not useful then it is not rewarding.
Thus we can conclude that crafting cannot be both satisfying and unnecessary.
It would be better to make one game without crafting and one game where crafting is important.
People who do not want to engage in crafting never seem to be capable of actually thinking about this.
Imagine if crafting was the game and then farming loot drops was an unnecessary but possible part of the game. How many raiders do you think would play that game if they had the option of playing a raiding centric game?
Maybe now you understand how ignorant you sound.
The only reason this wouldn't happen is that it's basically "create two games".
Take ATITD, add dungeons and quests and an adventurer class which plays like a typical MMORPG, and you basically have what zymurgeist is asking for. Both sides of the game would be fun in their own right, despite being basically unrelated.
So it's not that it can't happen, it's that the request is asking a developer to essentially make two games for two audiences, and inevitably a game split like that won't be all that great for either audience (both of whom could probably find a specialized game better suited to their needs.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by Cactus-Man Depends on the kind of game and the experience you want to create. If you were making an adventure game then it should be focused on adventure, crafting would play more of an optional support role to make useful things. If you were making a sim game crafting would play a more equal role with combat, as would other things like politics or religion. If you were making a harvest moon type game then crafting should be center stage. And the setting can influence not only the role of crafting in a game but the way it is implemented. Crafting and gathering in a sci-fi game would tend to be done a larger manufacturing level with after market upgrades, in fantasy crafting and gathering could be more of a personal endevour, in a post apoc game crafting and gathering is more akin to scavenging etc. So yeah my answer is a dissapointing, depends.
I agree with this. But I should probably clarify that crafting in and of itself is part of a greater aspect of mmo gaming ie non combat aspects.
IMO, you must have non combat and alternative ways to play an mmo in order for it to really grow and develop. If you focus entirely on combat, you lose the point of the genre. Online action games are becoming the norm both on consoles and computers. An mmorpg has the unique opportunity to stand out through its immersive worlds. Immersion comes in many forms: exploration, crafting, roleplay, economy, and other tools that allow players to be creative. In a well balanced mmorpg, conquest and combat should only be a small but equal piece to many parts that make up a world.
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
Crafting to me should be for both vanity and minor stat improvements. Many MMORPGs that I've looked at have things like the ability to change your item model to look like another item model. Crafting could easily take advantage of that to make gear that looks awesome, instead of just looking like a bunch of rags. The stat part of the gear should probably just be more of a side thing for if you haven't upgraded in awhile. Nobody wants to be forced into buying a major upgrade.
Thats not crafting then, its fashion. Fashion is not the extent of crafting. At best its a small part.
This is what the previous poster meant when he said that crafting in modern mmos is made for people who don't like crafting.
If you craft things you don't need, it is still crafting.
All I'm saying is that if crafting is more of a diversion, fueled by the demand for fashion or some other social purpose, then it doesn't get in the way of play. This allows people to play the game, make money as they please, and then swing back around to the crafters for when they got some spare cash to throw around. However, I still think that some stats should be included on items and some professions should be able to break down items into other goods (disenchanting for an example) so that items can sell for other reasons.
I don't think making professions a diversion is for people who hate professions. I think that making professions a diversion is for people who hate buying from the auction house to play the game.
Fashion is a tiny subset of crafting. Just like raiding is a tiny subset of combat.
You keep saying crafting gets in the way of the game. You wouldn't think it was in the way if you didn't hate crafting.
Would you rather I said people who don't enjoy crafting, rather than hate it? Given that people who hate crafting and people who don't enjoy crafting consistently ask for the same type of crafting system, the one you are advocating, does it really make a difference which description I use?
The only reason to advocate making one aspect of rpgs a diversion is so that you don't have to do it. And the only reason you don't want to do it is because you don't like it.
You can call what you describe a crafting system, but its a crafting system for people who don't like crafting.
Crafting is getting in the way of the game I said? I thought I said that the auction house gets in the way. The middle man! People play the action house, making prices skyrocket to unnessessary amounts. They even monopolize items. They can only exploit items that are in demand. What is more in demand than something that is required to play the game?
You literally said:
"All I'm saying is that if crafting is more of a diversion, fueled by the demand for fashion or some other social purpose, then it doesn't get in the way of play. "
So yes, you said crafting gets in the way.
Oh, I used the wrong term there. It isn't crafting that gets in the way, just the crafted items. Sorry about that. The items become that one thing that gets in the way of a player and his fun, so the unnecessary middle man jumps in.
I dont want casuals to do it. Im tired of the entitlement movement. Reminds me of how kids are comming up no adays. They get ribbins and awards for just showing up to things now insted or erning them. A 12th place trophy? come on now.
Not everyone should be able to craft. Just like not everone should be able to raid or PVP. Now if you want to put in the time and effort them sure, you can achive high lvl crafter status. But if you just want to mas buy mats of the broker and 1-300 in an afternoon then hit the bricks.
I feel like if someone is going to pull out the "kids these days" line, they should at least be able to form said statment in a way that doesn't make them sound like one of the "kids these days".
God forbid "casuals" are able to play games. You know, if you are going to buy Boardwalk and Park place you should at least play Monopoly twice a week, otherwise you're just a casual and you're being handed those top-tier properties. Don't people understand that they have to invest large amounts of their time into a game before they should be allowed to enjoy it? Also unless you've won at least 50 games of risk, you should only be allowed to roll 4 sided dice, 6 sided dice are for hardcore players.
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.
Crafting to me should be for both vanity and minor stat improvements. Many MMORPGs that I've looked at have things like the ability to change your item model to look like another item model. Crafting could easily take advantage of that to make gear that looks awesome, instead of just looking like a bunch of rags. The stat part of the gear should probably just be more of a side thing for if you haven't upgraded in awhile. Nobody wants to be forced into buying a major upgrade.
Thats not crafting then, its fashion. Fashion is not the extent of crafting. At best its a small part.
This is what the previous poster meant when he said that crafting in modern mmos is made for people who don't like crafting.
If you craft things you don't need, it is still crafting.
All I'm saying is that if crafting is more of a diversion, fueled by the demand for fashion or some other social purpose, then it doesn't get in the way of play. This allows people to play the game, make money as they please, and then swing back around to the crafters for when they got some spare cash to throw around. However, I still think that some stats should be included on items and some professions should be able to break down items into other goods (disenchanting for an example) so that items can sell for other reasons.
I don't think making professions a diversion is for people who hate professions. I think that making professions a diversion is for people who hate buying from the auction house to play the game.
Fashion is a tiny subset of crafting. Just like raiding is a tiny subset of combat.
You keep saying crafting gets in the way of the game. You wouldn't think it was in the way if you didn't hate crafting.
Would you rather I said people who don't enjoy crafting, rather than hate it? Given that people who hate crafting and people who don't enjoy crafting consistently ask for the same type of crafting system, the one you are advocating, does it really make a difference which description I use?
The only reason to advocate making one aspect of rpgs a diversion is so that you don't have to do it. And the only reason you don't want to do it is because you don't like it.
You can call what you describe a crafting system, but its a crafting system for people who don't like crafting.
Crafting is getting in the way of the game I said? I thought I said that the auction house gets in the way. The middle man! People play the action house, making prices skyrocket to unnessessary amounts. They even monopolize items. They can only exploit items that are in demand. What is more in demand than something that is required to play the game?
You literally said:
"All I'm saying is that if crafting is more of a diversion, fueled by the demand for fashion or some other social purpose, then it doesn't get in the way of play. "
So yes, you said crafting gets in the way.
Oh, I used the wrong term there. It isn't crafting that gets in the way, just the crafted items. Sorry about that. The items become that one thing that gets in the way of a player and his fun, so the unessessary middle man jumps in.
Why are you doing that middle man!? To make money so you can buy stuff from the other middle men, so that they can also buy stuff from other middle men?
(Ew! I was joking, but now that I put it like that it sounds about as nasty as a pyramid scheme to me.)
Why are you doing that middle man!? To make money so you can buy stuff from the other middle men, so that they can also buy stuff from other middle men?
(Ew! I was joking, but now that I put it like that it sounds about as nasty as a pyramid scheme to me.)
This is why auction global auction houses are stupid. Local markets for the win!
Unless the cost of the item is so high that you are better off crafting it yourself, I don't see what the issue is. Also you could always craft it yourself. Also some crafters may ignore middle men because they are boss. SWG didn't seem to have an issue with market speculation. And I mean, how could they? Its not like speculators can go to all 50000 shops.
I guess its similar to combat PvP, you always have griefers. But griefers can be controlled in the market. If I thought someone was speculating, I would just not sell them my items. I would also say, don't buy items from speculators and they will lower their prices.
One problem with games with global auction houses is that their economy system is just so shitty that its much easier to abuse speculation.
I dont want casuals to do it. Im tired of the entitlement movement. Reminds me of how kids are comming up no adays. They get ribbins and awards for just showing up to things now insted or erning them. A 12th place trophy? come on now.
Not everyone should be able to craft. Just like not everone should be able to raid or PVP. Now if you want to put in the time and effort them sure, you can achive high lvl crafter status. But if you just want to mas buy mats of the broker and 1-300 in an afternoon then hit the bricks.
I feel like if someone is going to pull out the "kids these days" line, they should at least be able to form said statment in a way that doesn't make them sound like one of the "kids these days".
God forbid "casuals" are able to play games. You know, if you are going to buy Boardwalk and Park place you should at least play Monopoly twice a week, otherwise you're just a casual and you're being handed those top-tier properties. Don't people understand that they have to invest large amounts of their time into a game before they should be allowed to enjoy it? Also unless you've won at least 50 games of risk, you should only be allowed to roll 4 sided dice, 6 sided dice are for hardcore players.
Casuals ruin it for hardcores. Don't even try to lie your way out of that. Casuals already control an incredible amount of the market. So if hardcore players want just a few fucking games that are made for them, why does that piss off casuals so damn much. If you don't like hardcore games, don't play them.
The answer to this should be simple and I'll keep it short and sweet:
Crafting should feel rewarding and fun, but shouldn't be made in to a chore. It should be something that is profitable and respected by those who chose not to do them.
On a side note, I do not like the idea of someone being able to craft better simply because he is more "hardcore". Advancements in crafting should only be made by crafting. It makes no sense to me why you would go against the laws of the world where someone who has 20 years of experience can produce better quality goods and more efficiently. If I want to craft my ass off and do a service for those that aren't as motivated to do so then I should be rewarded with being able to make stuff that others just can't have handed to them because they choose to participate in a completely different aspect of the game. To turn it around and look at it from another point of view... would you want crafters to be able to craft your raid gear for themselves? No, you wouldn't... so why should you be rewarded for something you're not doing?
Not gonna lie I havent read any of the posts but I thought I'd add my two cents.
Shouldn't it be an integral diversion if its part of the game? I say this because any game where crafting is added, first and foremost, the devs want it there plain and simple. If they want it there then it must:
1) be useful in the game
2) be something that isn't required for those who don't wish to take part
I say this because with crafting in the game the devs want it be something useful and (hopefully) something that diverts your attention away from all of the combat and other generic parts of the game. They want it to be something useful. For these reasons I feel crafting should be something that can really make a difference in the game if pursued but should not leave a gamebreaking advantage for those who take part over those who don't. Now I honestly have no solution to how this should come about but this is how I feel it should be implemented. If devs want it in the game theres no reason to half-ass it. Either do it to leave a lasting impression with those who take part or just ignore it completely. Although we all know how many games have taken the standard mmo-esque formula for crafting. Tis a shame
Neither. It should be a separate track and fully fledged game in and of itself. It should not be mandantory that people be or use products from crafters but crafting should be both useful and rewarding.
Those two requirements are mutually exclusive.
You are a possessor of loot drop privilege.
Players who prefer loot drops never have to consider whether crafting can be rewarding while producing items that are inferior to loot drops.
Noone who cares about crafting could have said that without the contradiction destroying their mind.
If you can get the same or better gear from lootdrops than crafting cannot be useful. If it is not useful then it is not rewarding.
Thus we can conclude that crafting cannot be both satisfying and unnecessary.
It would be better to make one game without crafting and one game where crafting is important.
People who do not want to engage in crafting never seem to be capable of actually thinking about this.
Imagine if crafting was the game and then farming loot drops was an unnecessary but possible part of the game. How many raiders do you think would play that game if they had the option of playing a raiding centric game?
Maybe now you understand how ignorant you sound.
The only reason this wouldn't happen is that it's basically "create two games".
Take ATITD, add dungeons and quests and an adventurer class which plays like a typical MMORPG, and you basically have what zymurgeist is asking for. Both sides of the game would be fun in their own right, despite being basically unrelated.
So it's not that it can't happen, it's that the request is asking a developer to essentially make two games for two audiences, and inevitably a game split like that won't be all that great for either audience (both of whom could probably find a specialized game better suited to their needs.)
That is exactly what I was saying in my post, yes.
I believe crafting should be an option for gearing as opposed to hunting, a way to combine many of the collected items from the world and/or monsters looted, as a way to access some items in the game otherwise unobtainable, and as a way to create ammunition or a chair.
The playerbase often ranges from a strict hunter/gatherer to even pure crafters and/or merchants. As a player that typically is not a crafter, I do enjoy the stimulation that crafting adds to the economy and interactions with merchants are a way that MMO's can/do drive player interaction.
Defining integral as a needed skill to advance, then no. Should you be able to access some cool gear/items you can't otherwise get? Sure.
With the amount of mini games that have been tried in every game genre todate. Why is crafting still always the same ole.. chance to succeed, click one button to roll, even though I like to mix complex recipes, i'll just play slots? I'd like to see an MMORPG try incorporating a crafting or lockpicking mini game to make the actions a bit more immersive.. or has this been done? is it a terribad idea? comments, questions, concerns?? ~V~
Comments
Crafting works in a sandbox game, but a themepark game where the whole game is nothing but combat, not so much. If you make a virtual world with a robust crafting system, you can absolutely play nothing but a crafter full time and have a blast. I kept an account open on SWG just to craft and run a shop.
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Have flask; will travel.
Fashion is a tiny subset of crafting. Just like raiding is a tiny subset of combat.
You keep saying crafting gets in the way of the game. You wouldn't think it was in the way if you didn't hate crafting.
Would you rather I said people who don't enjoy crafting, rather than hate it? Given that people who hate crafting and people who don't enjoy crafting consistently ask for the same type of crafting system, the one you are advocating, does it really make a difference which description I use?
The only reason to advocate making one aspect of rpgs a diversion is so that you don't have to do it. And the only reason you don't want to do it is because you don't like it.
You can call what you describe a crafting system, but its a crafting system for people who don't like crafting.
Crafting is by far one of the things i love to do in MMOs. IMO i belive crafting should be hard to do. Makeing those that truly want to spend the time to become some of the best crafters can do just that. Make those that want to dabble in it make some of the worst items in the game while those of us that work very hard at it make the best items in the game.
How do you make this work? Who the hell knows. But i will say this. I loved that we crafters were sout out by name in VG. Questions would go out over the sever asking " anyone know someone that can make Thestrian Thatches?" or " Need the name of a crafter that can make a sail for a Qualian Gallion" or just random hottness that was needed and only the best of the best could make.
Crafting needs to be for CRAFTERS! not for the masses.
Just wanted to add this. I use to be on the best Outiftters in VG ( back when there were still more then 2 servers lol ) and i would get mail daily with orders for Rope, Mast Riggings, Sails, Thatches, Cloth Combines. you name it i had a steady flow of work for people on my server. From House Builders to Boat Builders to people just wanted a set of gear made. ( swamp armor / rivits) iv seens left VG but i belive i have upwards of 400 plat between 5 toons.
this is what community is all about. Not having a crafting system so easy you yourself could have 6 master crafters with max recipes and never need the services of anyone else. if thats how you choose to play a MMO then your playing the wrong type of game.
People don't want to play MMOs, they want to play lobby base coop games. MMORPGs take too much time and effort.
I too dream of a game with awesome crafting but fat chance we will ever see it except in small population indie games.
Sad but true. It seems even AA is goin the way of the "Create All" tab. Im sure there are elements to crafting in that game that will make it somewhat of a chalenge but doesent take away from the Stapels style of crafting. For those of you that dont know what that means.....
click me
There some problems with non staples crafting though. What would you replace it with?
I guess you could go ATITD style and have little activities for crafting. But what would the affect be? Would crafting a sword and failing at the game mean just failing? Would you get bonuses for doing it really well?
I feel like, much like other skill raising, in any system where you have progression you are going to get grind. People are going to grind it and people who don't have the time or inclination won't be able to compete.
Also if you make crafting possible for casuals to achieve at, power players will push way beyond them, and if you make it take a while to craft an item, casuals won't be able to do it.
I dont want casuals to do it. Im tired of the entitlement movement. Reminds me of how kids are comming up no adays. They get ribbins and awards for just showing up to things now insted or erning them. A 12th place trophy? come on now.
Not everyone should be able to craft. Just like not everone should be able to raid or PVP. Now if you want to put in the time and effort them sure, you can achive high lvl crafter status. But if you just want to mas buy mats of the broker and 1-300 in an afternoon then hit the bricks.
Fair enough. But how do you want to set crafting up? Times between crafts? While crafting for many hours not being able to do anything else? Minigames?
Your ganna have to refer to the " Who the hell knows" protion of my first post LOL.
But i wish a had a good answer for you bro. All i know is crafting is to easy. so for me anything that makes it harder for those that dont truly want to craft im all for. grinding doesent mean anything to me.
i max lvled toons on RO so im all good with the grinding. But im my perfect world of crafting? It would be a system that deters those that dont want to truly envest time and effort into it.
Crafting is getting in the way of the game I said? I thought I said that the auction house gets in the way. The middle man! People play the action house, making prices skyrocket to unnessessary amounts. They even monopolize items. They can only exploit items that are in demand. What is more in demand than something that is required to play the game?
You literally said:
"All I'm saying is that if crafting is more of a diversion, fueled by the demand for fashion or some other social purpose, then it doesn't get in the way of play. "
So yes, you said crafting gets in the way.
I am fine with grinding also. Just wasn't sure if you were.
I like all aspects of the game I am playing to be good, PvE, PvP, Crafting, Harvesting, Exploring, and anything on the side.
I like to do different things, if a game I am playing is very limited, I will probably stop playing it sooner rather than later.
I liked Vanguards designs, just too bad they had such a rough start. I liked the harvesting (common/rare/ultra rare nodes, and group harvesting), the crafting was very good imo and it was useful and intigrated raiding into it, in a good way. The Pve/classes were good, the PvP had some problems, but I enjoyed it...I also like to dabble in Diplomacy here and there to break things up.
All the side stuff felt 'worth' my time, and it kept me wanting to play, until SoE didn't seem to want to play along that is and people left the PvP servers when they decommited to working on PvP...
It is the last game that I felt truely had a good overall concept, wish it could of launched the way it was when I left, I think it would of had good numbers for a long time.
I do not craft to be rich or anything, I usually craft and harvest to help the guild I am in, and I make everything for free...As long as the member isn't a jerk that seems to just be using everyone...Then I am a little busy...
The only reason this wouldn't happen is that it's basically "create two games".
Take ATITD, add dungeons and quests and an adventurer class which plays like a typical MMORPG, and you basically have what zymurgeist is asking for. Both sides of the game would be fun in their own right, despite being basically unrelated.
So it's not that it can't happen, it's that the request is asking a developer to essentially make two games for two audiences, and inevitably a game split like that won't be all that great for either audience (both of whom could probably find a specialized game better suited to their needs.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I agree with this. But I should probably clarify that crafting in and of itself is part of a greater aspect of mmo gaming ie non combat aspects.
IMO, you must have non combat and alternative ways to play an mmo in order for it to really grow and develop. If you focus entirely on combat, you lose the point of the genre. Online action games are becoming the norm both on consoles and computers. An mmorpg has the unique opportunity to stand out through its immersive worlds. Immersion comes in many forms: exploration, crafting, roleplay, economy, and other tools that allow players to be creative. In a well balanced mmorpg, conquest and combat should only be a small but equal piece to many parts that make up a world.
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
Oh, I used the wrong term there. It isn't crafting that gets in the way, just the crafted items. Sorry about that. The items become that one thing that gets in the way of a player and his fun, so the unnecessary middle man jumps in.
Edit: Spelling error!
I feel like if someone is going to pull out the "kids these days" line, they should at least be able to form said statment in a way that doesn't make them sound like one of the "kids these days".
God forbid "casuals" are able to play games. You know, if you are going to buy Boardwalk and Park place you should at least play Monopoly twice a week, otherwise you're just a casual and you're being handed those top-tier properties. Don't people understand that they have to invest large amounts of their time into a game before they should be allowed to enjoy it? Also unless you've won at least 50 games of risk, you should only be allowed to roll 4 sided dice, 6 sided dice are for hardcore players.
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.
Im the middle man lol.
Why are you doing that middle man!? To make money so you can buy stuff from the other middle men, so that they can also buy stuff from other middle men?
(Ew! I was joking, but now that I put it like that it sounds about as nasty as a pyramid scheme to me.)
This is why auction global auction houses are stupid. Local markets for the win!
Unless the cost of the item is so high that you are better off crafting it yourself, I don't see what the issue is. Also you could always craft it yourself. Also some crafters may ignore middle men because they are boss. SWG didn't seem to have an issue with market speculation. And I mean, how could they? Its not like speculators can go to all 50000 shops.
I guess its similar to combat PvP, you always have griefers. But griefers can be controlled in the market. If I thought someone was speculating, I would just not sell them my items. I would also say, don't buy items from speculators and they will lower their prices.
One problem with games with global auction houses is that their economy system is just so shitty that its much easier to abuse speculation.
Casuals ruin it for hardcores. Don't even try to lie your way out of that. Casuals already control an incredible amount of the market. So if hardcore players want just a few fucking games that are made for them, why does that piss off casuals so damn much. If you don't like hardcore games, don't play them.
The answer to this should be simple and I'll keep it short and sweet:
Crafting should feel rewarding and fun, but shouldn't be made in to a chore. It should be something that is profitable and respected by those who chose not to do them.
On a side note, I do not like the idea of someone being able to craft better simply because he is more "hardcore". Advancements in crafting should only be made by crafting. It makes no sense to me why you would go against the laws of the world where someone who has 20 years of experience can produce better quality goods and more efficiently. If I want to craft my ass off and do a service for those that aren't as motivated to do so then I should be rewarded with being able to make stuff that others just can't have handed to them because they choose to participate in a completely different aspect of the game. To turn it around and look at it from another point of view... would you want crafters to be able to craft your raid gear for themselves? No, you wouldn't... so why should you be rewarded for something you're not doing?
Not gonna lie I havent read any of the posts but I thought I'd add my two cents.
Shouldn't it be an integral diversion if its part of the game? I say this because any game where crafting is added, first and foremost, the devs want it there plain and simple. If they want it there then it must:
1) be useful in the game
2) be something that isn't required for those who don't wish to take part
I say this because with crafting in the game the devs want it be something useful and (hopefully) something that diverts your attention away from all of the combat and other generic parts of the game. They want it to be something useful. For these reasons I feel crafting should be something that can really make a difference in the game if pursued but should not leave a gamebreaking advantage for those who take part over those who don't. Now I honestly have no solution to how this should come about but this is how I feel it should be implemented. If devs want it in the game theres no reason to half-ass it. Either do it to leave a lasting impression with those who take part or just ignore it completely. Although we all know how many games have taken the standard mmo-esque formula for crafting. Tis a shame
That is exactly what I was saying in my post, yes.
I believe crafting should be an option for gearing as opposed to hunting, a way to combine many of the collected items from the world and/or monsters looted, as a way to access some items in the game otherwise unobtainable, and as a way to create ammunition or a chair.
The playerbase often ranges from a strict hunter/gatherer to even pure crafters and/or merchants. As a player that typically is not a crafter, I do enjoy the stimulation that crafting adds to the economy and interactions with merchants are a way that MMO's can/do drive player interaction.
Defining integral as a needed skill to advance, then no. Should you be able to access some cool gear/items you can't otherwise get? Sure.
With the amount of mini games that have been tried in every game genre todate. Why is crafting still always the same ole.. chance to succeed, click one button to roll, even though I like to mix complex recipes, i'll just play slots? I'd like to see an MMORPG try incorporating a crafting or lockpicking mini game to make the actions a bit more immersive.. or has this been done? is it a terribad idea? comments, questions, concerns?? ~V~