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No PVP gear.. why is that good?

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  • ComfyChairComfyChair Member Posts: 758

    Can't wait to crush the noobs who thought they were good at PvP because they could spend 16 hours a day grinding.

     

    The fact that GW2 is moving to a more MOBA/FPS style PvP is aweomse. Those games are about skill, not gear. I laugh at those pathetic weaklings who can't win without their precious gear. Learn to play.

  • alkarionlogalkarionlog Member EpicPosts: 3,584

    Originally posted by Zylaxx

    Originally posted by jackman1118

    Confession: I like swtor's carrot on the stick (if that disqualifies me from liking this game too then so be it)

     

    But without pvp gear, what keeps me pvping in guild wars 2? I am trying to find information but all I see is people saying "Its fun, thats why you should play it!"

     

    I play mmo's to progress a character, I play sc2 or fps' for competitive fun. (cause its a rpg)

     

    Will this game provide the same types of ladders and stat tracking that a fps or a sc2 provides to keep me playing? This is something dearly lacking from swtor and if this game *plans* on having it at release I will be very interested.

     

    Will I be able to get anything but "fun" out of pvp?

    (note: I am not asking for pvp gear to own casuals, but I need something to aim for when pvp'ing!)

     

    Simple answer, no GW2 will not have carrots on a stick and will not contain pregression based on gear inflation, so in all likely hood this game wont be for you. 

     

    I think its great a game will get rid of the "epeen" and "hardcore" and concentrate on things that make this genre great.  Not stupid things like raiding, gear progression, legendarys which only 1 person can have, or other elitist forms of differentiation.

    not really hardcore will have it, but the pvp kind , the ones what really matters anyway, if have any siege , or territorial battles they will be the ones who will have then

     

    the good part of no pvp gear is craft will have a good chance to keep his worth during game and cap lvl

    FOR HONOR, FOR FREEDOM.... and for some money.
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441

    Originally posted by evilastro

    Originally posted by Sanctum

    anyways idk how balanced GW1 was but I'm willing to bet that WoW took more skill but that doesn't matter

    you misundertood the other part

    in GvG and mobas time = skill directly because they requiere mainly team coordination and strats = need lot of time playing togetheer

    but in tdm and conquest individual skill matters lots which is why time=skill is less of a factor and someone who is not a veteran could be better than a veteran

    You would lose that bet. GW1 was more skill based than WoW could ever dream to be.

    True, when you balance gear skill will win every time.

    In Wow skills win the the day if the gear is about the same power level, bad people with good gear can beat good people with bad gear there, that just don´t happen in GW.

    It is fine to prefer one or the other thing but almost all games are more focused on gear than player skill, so we need a few like this to balance that up.

    I always feel better when I win in GW than in the other MMOs I play because I know I win because I played better, not because of my gear.

  • UtukuMoonUtukuMoon Member Posts: 1,066

    Originally posted by ComfyChair

    Can't wait to crush the noobs who thought they were good at PvP because they could spend 16 hours a day grinding.

     

    The fact that GW2 is moving to a more MOBA/FPS style PvP is aweomse. Those games are about skill, not gear. I laugh at those pathetic weaklings who can't win without their precious gear. Learn to play.

    I'am with you on that my friend,it's going to be sweet.

  • Sora2810Sora2810 Member Posts: 567

    Originally posted by jackman1118

    Confession: I like swtor's carrot on the stick (if that disqualifies me from liking this game too then so be it)

    But without pvp gear, what keeps me pvping in guild wars 2? I am trying to find information but all I see is people saying "Its fun, thats why you should play it!"

    I play mmo's to progress a character, I play sc2 or fps' for competitive fun. (cause its a rpg)

    (note: I am not asking for pvp gear to own casuals, but I need something to aim for when pvp'ing!)

    I may not have much merit on this; but the over-arching sense of play is to remove the 'carrot on the stick' concept. I am the opposite of you, when I play a game, I want it to be fun. I used to play for progression, but I felt I lost sense of what a game should be, an enjoyable experience.

    This may not be your cup of tea.

    Played - M59, EQOA, EQ, EQ2, PS, SWG[Favorite], DAoC, UO, RS, MXO, CoH/CoV, TR, FFXI, FoM, WoW, Eve, Rift, SWTOR, TSW.
    Playing - PS2, AoW, GW2

  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001

    Originally posted by Sora2810

    Originally posted by jackman1118

    Confession: I like swtor's carrot on the stick (if that disqualifies me from liking this game too then so be it)

    But without pvp gear, what keeps me pvping in guild wars 2? I am trying to find information but all I see is people saying "Its fun, thats why you should play it!"

    I play mmo's to progress a character, I play sc2 or fps' for competitive fun. (cause its a rpg)

    (note: I am not asking for pvp gear to own casuals, but I need something to aim for when pvp'ing!)

    I may not have much merit on this; but the over-arching sense of play is to remove the 'carrot on the stick' concept. I am the opposite of you, when I play a game, I want it to be fun. I used to play for progression, but I felt I lost sense of what a game should be, an enjoyable experience.

    This may not be your cup of tea.

    There is still carrots on sticks for GW2, but in a good way.  SWTOR and Co offer a carrot on a stick, but that carrot slowly dies, forcing you to go for the next carrot to replace your original, etc etc. This is tiered gear grinding. 

    GW2 however entices you with hundreds of different vegetables on different sticks, and you get to pick the veggie that appeals to you.  all of the veggies are as good as earch other, and you are free to swap between them at any time. None of these veggies die forcing you to replace them. This is horizontal progression.  

    This is what mmorgs/RPG's are about, working towards goals of your own choosing in your own timescales and getting the rewards you want, and not having that work devalued over time through stat inflation.

     

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • Draith77Draith77 Member Posts: 14

    Originally posted by Siveria

    I think having pvp earnable gear ruins it for everyone. Should have to raid like everyone else for your gear to use it to pvp with. It worked fine in dark age of camelot and a few other mmo's don't know why all the recent mmo's insist on having 2 seperate gear sets one earnable thru pvp and one thru pve.

     Humm no Fuck raiding,  it's PVE dorks like you who ruin good PVP games,  there is nothing wrong with having PVP gear in a game as long as they fix it to where it's used in PVP only...

    Damn PVP Noobs...

  • SanctumSanctum Member Posts: 179

    Originally posted by Crrow77

    Originally posted by Siveria

    I think having pvp earnable gear ruins it for everyone. Should have to raid like everyone else for your gear to use it to pvp with. It worked fine in dark age of camelot and a few other mmo's don't know why all the recent mmo's insist on having 2 seperate gear sets one earnable thru pvp and one thru pve.

     Humm no Fuck raiding,  it's PVE dorks like you who ruin good PVP games,  there is nothing wrong with having PVP gear in a game as long as they fix it to where it's used in PVP only...

    Damn PVP Noobs...

    I think I'm in love

  • fiontarfiontar Member UncommonPosts: 3,682

    Player skill based competative PVP is the proper design decision.

    When a game adds multiple teirs of PVP stat armor to reward the most frequent PVPers, it just skews the PVP experience in ways that make it very destructive for the 95% of the game population that doesn't spend hours a day grinding PVP for artificial performance boosting rewards.

    When you play a lot of PVP, you are going to benefit by being a more experienced player. Experience gives you all the edge you need. Adding additional stat boosts and special PVP boosting stats makes no sense on top of that. It only serves as a way to compensate bad players who don't improve much as players even though they play alot, so they don't get frustrated with their inability to "learn to play" after hundreds of hours invested. So, to soothe the egos of a few bad players with too much time on their hands, the other 95% of PVP players need to suffer?

    Let's face it. The only people who "need" PVP gear are those who are afraid that they might invest hundreds of hours into PVP and still suck at it. Most people who start PVP as newbs are fine with losing a lot in the beginning, because they understand that other players have a lot more experience than they do. They also understand that as they play more, they will get better at it and eventually will reach a level of proficiency which will allow them to be competative.

    However, in games with PVP gear, (which almost always then go on to feature many tiers of more and more powerful gear), the barrier to success isn't just the time needed to become a skilled player, it's the time investment needed to some how catch up on the gear based "arms race". How does one ever really catch up to hard core players who have spent months playing way too many hours a day to get the gear they own and will continue earning better and better gear as time goes on?

    Good players who play a lot will be satisfied with their progression as a player and will take pride in the skills they have honed at playing their character vs. other players. It's only people who spend a ton of hours playing and still suck that need PVP gear progression.

    Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
    image

  • SanctumSanctum Member Posts: 179

    ^ this dude worded it perfectly

  • stramastrama Member Posts: 14

    Originally posted by fiontar

    Player skill based competative PVP is the proper design decision.

    When a game adds multiple teirs of PVP stat armor to reward the most frequent PVPers, it just skews the PVP experience in ways that make it very destructive for the 95% of the game population that doesn't spend hours a day grinding PVP for artificial performance boosting rewards.

    When you play a lot of PVP, you are going to benefit by being a more experienced player. Experience gives you all the edge you need. Adding additional stat boosts and special PVP boosting stats makes no sense on top of that. It only serves as a way to compensate bad players who don't improve much as players even though they play alot, so they don't get frustrated with their inability to "learn to play" after hundreds of hours invested. So, to soothe the egos of a few bad players with too much time on their hands, the other 95% of PVP players need to suffer?

    Let's face it. The only people who "need" PVP gear are those who are afraid that they might invest hundreds of hours into PVP and still suck at it. Most people who start PVP as newbs are fine with losing a lot in the beginning, because they understand that other players have a lot more experience than they do. They also understand that as they play more, they will get better at it and eventually will reach a level of proficiency which will allow them to be competative.

    However, in games with PVP gear, (which almost always then go on to feature many tiers of more and more powerful gear), the barrier to success isn't just the time needed to become a skilled player, it's the time investment needed to some how catch up on the gear based "arms race". How does one ever really catch up to hard core players who have spent months playing way too many hours a day to get the gear they own and will continue earning better and better gear as time goes on?

    Good players who play a lot will be satisfied with their progression as a player and will take pride in the skills they have honed at playing their character vs. other players. It's only people who spend a ton of hours playing and still suck that need PVP gear progression.

    /thread please close.

    fiontar's words should be the last reply people see about this particular argument.

  • RozbuskaRozbuska Member Posts: 8

    I play PvP for fun of killing, cooperating ect. If game need gear (or other type of rewards) as motivation to play pvp is something wrong with that game.

    image

  • itgrowlsitgrowls Member Posts: 2,951

    Originally posted by Crrow77

    Originally posted by Siveria

    I think having pvp earnable gear ruins it for everyone. Should have to raid like everyone else for your gear to use it to pvp with. It worked fine in dark age of camelot and a few other mmo's don't know why all the recent mmo's insist on having 2 seperate gear sets one earnable thru pvp and one thru pve.

     Humm no Fuck raiding,  it's PVE dorks like you who ruin good PVP games,  there is nothing wrong with having PVP gear in a game as long as they fix it to where it's used in PVP only...

    Damn PVP Noobs...

    Screw them both, who needs pvp gear accept those who are terrible at it or have too much time on their hands and want to abuse it by killing other players in open world environments with near invincibility and with no skill. And RAIDING is nothing more then the mmo equivolent of the high school Prepy boys and girls (mostly boys) who want to have the newest and greatest of everything "just to have it", yep no other reason, just to make it seem that just because they did the little dance and song in the dungeon that was scripted like a high school musical that somehow they are a better player then everyone else. (I know i used to be one) ONLY to have to turn right around and have to do it all over again. meanwhile the rest of the the majority of the players who don't have the time or resources to run ten million dungeons to get entry gear just to see some tiny bit of lore based content have to suffer, not to mention the horrible design flaws that come with gear drop rates, currency systems, and lackluster equivolent crafted gear in these style games.

    Anet do not ruin your game by listening to either one of these types of people keep on track with your own ideas and value system for your game the other 98% of us gamers will definitely thank you in the end. I know i will thank Anet for eliminating two of the most hated game "features" of all time.

  • Draith77Draith77 Member Posts: 14

    I love how dumb shit PVE raiders can come into a BG (Yes I’m referring to WoW here) with their PVE gear and Blow stuff up and  think it’s alright,  but the second a PVPer steps foot in a raid with a PVP weapon it’s not ok…


     


    You can’t have it both ways Hypocrites !   That's all I'm saying....


     

  • VolkonVolkon Member UncommonPosts: 3,748

    Originally posted by Crrow77

    I love how dumb shit PVE raiders can come into a BG (Yes I’m referring to WoW here) with their PVE gear and Blow stuff up and  think it’s alright,  but the second a PVPer steps foot in a raid with a PVP weapon it’s not ok…


     


    You can’t have it both ways Hypocrites !   That's all I'm saying....


     

    Why would you expect otherwise? PvP gear in WoW is lacking in many areas with regards to PvE because they replaced vital stats with resilience. Resilience, if I recall, was ineffective in raids, so you're basically taking gimped gear, weakening the raid.

     

    So basically... you've identified the problem with PvP stat based gear. The stats pretty well pigeon hole you into being PvP only while wearing the gear.

     

    Now... there's a misconception here that should be addressed. There IS PvP gear in GW2. However, statistically, it's completely on par with PvE gear. There's no special stat that makes it PvP only, no resilience or the like. Effectively, you'll be able to get unique PvP only skins and be able to stat them up as you see fit.

    Oderint, dum metuant.

  • LluluienLluluien Member Posts: 54

    Originally posted by jackman1118

    Originally posted by osc8r

    OP: You've played SWTOR and yet you are still asking why having no PVP gear is good?

    I thought that game made it pretty blatantly clear why PVP gear ruins PVP. Hint: Try PVP'ing in the level 50 bracket without expertise lately?

    Stupid dev's turning PVP into mindless gear grinds... like the PVE grind wasn't enough for them?

    Bring on GW2!

     

    No to your first question, because I have 690 expertise (about 3 pieces away fom max). I find that you can go get the gear the same way I did, how is that not balanced? Oh right, because rng also hurts you somehow, or whatever other whiny things you guys have to say. Yet you accuse me of whining.. odd.

     

    because you are a casual who wants to spend 20 minutes a day playing and expect to be as good as me in a mmo is a joke. This isnt the fps genre. With gw2 its taking a step in that direction (casuals rejoice!)

    When I am older I will probably change my stance, but as a college student I like competitive gear races. Sorry you dont.

    I keep being amazed by these posts from the OP.  This is a very PVE-er statement by him.  That crowd is the one that always insists that the time spent in the grinder is what makes you hardcore in the first place.

    I think the vast majority of people that are good at PVP have exactly the opposite opinion, and it's being reflected in the rest of the posts here.  Most of those people say that having superior skills to win an otherwise even fight is what makes you hardcore, and everything else is irrelevant.  If you can grind/practice/etc. for a few thousand hours and still not have the skills to win in the competitive play environment, THAT is what makes you casual.

    I'm not saying the OP is bad at PVP because he doesn't share that opinion.  I just don't think you're going to find ANY sympathy at all from everyone else who has had to suffer the previously jacked-up PVP rewards systems in the previous 2469082376234980634096872346 games that followed that design now that we finally have a game coming out that's going to let us embarrass most of the previous "hardcore" types who could use their 7-bajillion hours logged in game as a crutch to win.

     

  • GuileplayerGuileplayer Member Posts: 418

    is there going to be cosmetic only gears through pvp? or i will have to pay real money for them? and from what i understand armors and weapons have 0 stats right? they are only for looks.

    Currently Playing: SSFIV AE, SFxTekken, SWTOR, WoW. Waiting for: GW2, Resident Evil 6.

  • jondifooljondifool Member UncommonPosts: 1,143

    Originally posted by Guileplayer

    is there going to be cosmetic only gears through pvp? or i will have to pay real money for them? and from what i understand armors and weapons have 0 stats right? they are only for looks.

     there is stats , but they are not tied to looks- and they will have roughly the same value in combat(as in GW1) and properly be equal easy to obtain. The trick is that with transmutation stones you can tie any armours stats to any other armours look.(as long as it stays medium, light or heavy i think) 

    And since there is not going to be an endless statgrind in the game, that means after playing a little everyone will fight on same conditions, but someone will just look better or more cool and have payed for that!

     

  • fiontarfiontar Member UncommonPosts: 3,682

    Originally posted by jondifool

    Originally posted by Guileplayer

    is there going to be cosmetic only gears through pvp? or i will have to pay real money for them? and from what i understand armors and weapons have 0 stats right? they are only for looks.

     there is stats , but they are not tied to looks- and they will have roughly the same value in combat(as in GW1) and properly be equal easy to obtain. The trick is that with transmutation stones you can tie any armours stats to any other armours look.(as long as it stays medium, light or heavy i think) 

    And since there is not going to be an endless statgrind in the game, that means after playing a little everyone will fight on same conditions, but someone will just look better or more cool and have payed for that!

     

    Don't confuse CPVP with PVE/World vs. World.

    In CPVP, you don't earn gear with better stats. Everyone is level 80, with all skills unlocked, full traits to slot and max stat gear that is available for everyone at no cost. CPVP is all about player skill based PVP in battleground settings. You can earn new armor looks, so the more you accomp,ish, the more options you will have to differentiate your lokk from that of new players.

    PVE/World vs. World are completely seperate. I'm not going to repeat the details again, since I think it's already been covered in this very thread and, if not, the information is available elsewhere. I'll just mention that the power curve for gear in the PVE/WvWvW game is shallower than other MMOs and also the power curve levels off at the level cap in a way that will make the task of getting max stat gear a fairly easy process. No more post-cap, ever escalating gear arms race. Transmutation stones will allow you to transfer stats from one item to the skin of another, so you will be able to combine the look you want with the stats you've worked to equip yourself with.

    Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
    image

  • jondifooljondifool Member UncommonPosts: 1,143

    Originally posted by fiontar

    Originally posted by jondifool

    Originally posted by Guileplayer

    is there going to be cosmetic only gears through pvp? or i will have to pay real money for them? and from what i understand armors and weapons have 0 stats right? they are only for looks.

     there is stats , but they are not tied to looks- and they will have roughly the same value in combat(as in GW1) and properly be equal easy to obtain. The trick is that with transmutation stones you can tie any armours stats to any other armours look.(as long as it stays medium, light or heavy i think) 

    And since there is not going to be an endless statgrind in the game, that means after playing a little everyone will fight on same conditions, but someone will just look better or more cool and have payed for that!

     

    Don't confuse CPVP with PVE/World vs. World.

    In CPVP, you don't earn gear with better stats. Everyone is level 80, with all skills unlocked, full traits to slot and max stat gear that is available for everyone at no cost. CPVP is all about player skill based PVP in battleground settings. You can earn new armor looks, so the more you accomp,ish, the more options you will have to differentiate your lokk from that of new players.

    PVE/World vs. World are completely seperate. I'm not going to repeat the details again, since I think it's already been covered in this very thread and, if not, the information is available elsewhere. I'll just mention that the power curve for gear in the PVE/WvWvW game is shallower than other MMOs and also the power curve levels off at the level cap in a way that will make the task of getting max stat gear a fairly easy process. No more post-cap, ever escalating gear arms race. Transmutation stones will allow you to transfer stats from one item to the skin of another, so you will be able to combine the look you want with the stats you've worked to equip yourself with.

     i for sure don't confuse them.

  • dooneydooney Member Posts: 69

    Originally posted by jackman1118

    I want competitive pvp with my own character, who grows and becomes stronger the more I pvp.

     

     

    I'd rather play with a character that already has its skills and the more I play the better I get at executing its moves, but I doubt it'll make much difference with a tab target game as they are generally easy to play and after a while you simply can't improve anymore. 

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