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Why I Find Full Loot Games Fun
77lolmac77
Member UncommonPosts: 492
Not sure about anyone else but I could never fathom why people dont like full loot games, or full loot servers for games. Everything that is a common complaint on these boards is solved from full loot.
- Dont like gear-grind treadmill games? Good news, in full loot games gear is more of an afterthought with more focus on player skill. No one worries about gear because it can all be lost in a losing battle.
- Dont like doing the same raid over and over, only to be able to do another raid over and over? In full loot games there is no focus on raids in the PvE sense. If you want to get loot the best way would be off another players back.
- Want a stronger community in your MMO, one that has a sense of pride and known players? You'll find plenty of that in full loot games. If someone gathering for their clan gets ganked over and over again by another clan, theres going to be some problems. This could lead to an all-out war, or an ambush set up by the gatherers clan.
- Want clans to actually have a meaning in game besides a glorified chat room? In full loot games, your clan are the only people you can trust. This not only leads to more meaningful points to a clan, but also keeps you on your toes when looking at a potential recruit. For all you know they could be working for a rival clan and theyre trying to join yours to see your strength. Not to mention clans can provide gear to replace anything you might lose in battle.
- Want to feel like your character can actually make a difference in the game world? In full loot games anyone can make a difference. Even if you installed the game an hour ago, a clan could use you as a scout or have you loot any clan mates corpses to recover their things. Not to mention, once you gain some skill levels, you can control parts of the game world, and make anyone you deem a target pay for coming through your land.
- Tired of people being a**holes to you either in chat or through ganking? In full loot games you can not only kill that person, you can take their loot. Even if they are higher leveled than you, all it takes is a few clan mates to make that person wish they never messed with you.
I realize that not everyone likes sandbox games, or losing gear they acquired, but you have to look at the things that make up for it. There is no "story" planned out, you make the story. I can tell you details about clan battles Ive had in Darkfall and Runescape, but I dont really remember a whole lot from WoW raids. Sure its fun to raid Molten Core the first few times when everything is new to you, but it soon becomes a chore.
Seriously, if you call yourself a "pvper" and are playing a theme park mmo I can only laugh. Short of the people who compete in competitions, thats not PvP. What do you get for winning? Some honor points or medals to get better gear, so you can get honor points and medals faster? Sounds.Like.Fun
Meanwhile, in a game like Darkfall, there are cities that can be won and lost, players you will attack on sight if you come across them, and the ever fascinating element that is human drama. AI mobs can only be so cunning, so advanced, so hard but their still computers acting on set commands. In full loot games, you have to match wits with humans, which is a whole lot harder.
Basically, if you want to have the same experience as everyone else who plays the game, by all means play a themepark. But if you want to be the director of your game, if you want to decide whos friend or foe, if you want to be able to leave your mark on the game so that 20 years down the road people you played with will still love/hate playing with you, please, try a sandbox.
Comments
alot better. ^^
LMAO!
full loot mmos can be fun. the problem is that too often devs try to force the full loot pvp on everyone in game, instead of balancing risk vs reward like EvE does with high sec/low sec.
too many greefers like to play full loot mmos and greefers dont grow comunites they only piss people off and drive them away from the game. full loot mmos absolutely need safe zones where people can still play and not have to deal with greefers if they so choose.
Good god sir!!!
All kidding aside, some very good points man but hard get to them due to your spacing (or lack thereof).
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
In full loot games that person can not only kill you, they can take your loot.
Why settle for symmetry on their level when you can simply play a game without them?
Your wrong. Full loot is a niche and nothing more and is a barrier for getting people to play. With that being said there is absolutely nothing wrong with having different shards/worlds/servers with different rulesets. If games Like Asherons Call and UO (trammel) that are 12+ years long can offer different ruleset servers then a new game can do the same.
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let me make you a small analogy ....
You have 2 board game one is chess and the other is checkers
If you tried to developp a board game that would attract both checkers and chess player you would need to ditch some elements such as the different movement of the chess non-peon so that it would be fair for all.... That's what full loot is it only works when everyone is the same .
The only way to have a full loot game is to have classless game and classless means grind game , and we are long past the methodology of having grindfest game because people are not interested in these anymore .. unles you like playing zynga game like farmville and castleville.
Sure darkfall and all made it and it turned exactly like it will always turn , a niche game.. And as some said with the "downfall" of uo once people left for trammel well it was over for the lawless land because people decided they loved pve with restrained pvp more than a giant clusterf**k of pvp ganking.
But saying it will only ever be a niche saddens me. Why cant people take setbacks in MMOs any more? Why are there no penalties for anything? Everything has to be rewarding. In Darkfall, one day you can get ganked and lose your armor, the next day find a persons gravestone and get even better armor. I understand people want the game to be fun but am I the only one who finds uncertainty in MMOs fun?
I just dont like how sandboxes are automatically not worth playing because theres a chance you wont have a productive game session, one that doesnt go *poof* *shinyshinyshinyshiny* You have reached level 2! You're the best!
I sympathize with you man, I really do. But the reality is most people do not find FFA full-loot to pe appealing. That is why I advocate a compromise in which only non-readied items (loot bag) drop upon death. I mean, wishing people were less risk adverse in MMOs is like saying you wish people could get a long in real life and there would be no wars:
Nice thought but it just ain't going to happen any time real soon....
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
Darkfall in my opinion suffered a lot more from his clunky UI than the combat to be honest ... the same crowd who keep hammering bioware to fix their ability delay on the swtor forum have a lot to say about it.
Basically the connection betwen your keyboard and your character has to be instantaneous for a true connection to be made and games who failed this oftenly end up being looked upon . Darkfall in instance has this horrendous weapon sheeting that takes so long that it feel like it disconnect you from combat while trying to feel immersive.
So you enjoy completely random events?
How about we put that in every game, you have a 5% chance every day that on logon you will either loose all your shit or get more better shit into your inventory.
The effect is the same as full loot games, what exactly is the fun of that?
I honestly believe that people who enjoy full loot PVP games are just there to grief others. You do not gain anything from having a full loot PVP system beyond the satisfaction of "pwning nabs" and taking their shit.
the only reason DF isn't more popular is because of the capless skill level. in a game were every time you die you loose all you have nobody wants to be handicapped forever. it's not like all other games were you can avoid "end level" guys, on the contrary you are forced to fight them from day one and you will always be handicapped. nobody will find taht fair for long. that and the graphics are a bit dated by now. everything else is very fun.
If you like full loot pvp games thats cool. I'm not saying you shouldn't have a game that you enjoy. The only problem is that your enjoyment has to come from the misery of others. Not many people are willing to pay 15 bucks a month to be miserable just so you can enjoy yourself. That is the reason why full loot pvp games are not popular and will never be more than a small niche in this genre.
Quoted for truth..
It's like reading through a EULA with 100's of lines..
I agree with the OP 100%. Full loot solves a lot of problems. Gear treadmills are lame and boring and pvp doesn't mean anything when you don't have a death penalty. You will never have a meaningful war between guilds in a game without full looting. Dedicated crafters should also play full loot games. Crafting is nearly 100% pointless in non full loot games. If people don't ever lose their gear, why would they buy the crap you make? Odds are they will find some stupid quest reward that is better than anything you can make anyway. In a full loot game people turn to crafters to resupply after losses. The main problem with full loot games is that many players lack the will to try them out. When a game is designed around a full loot mechanic it isn't like you are losing 100 hours of gameplay when you die. It just means you don't need 100 hours of gameplay to get useful gear.
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I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
I actually think, as always, that a hybrid system is where its at. To be fair, full loot PVP games -can- be rewarding and fun but they need to be incredibly restrictive and there need to be consequences for PK and looting.
EVE had the right idea by inventing the insurance-system, cloning and security levels, but that system is far from perfect also. Especially because insurance-levels can not be set by the player only chosen from a pre-made list. Meaning they will never actually reflect the value of your ship because the equipment you put into it sometimes exceeds the price of the ship and is therefore not covered by even the highest premium insurance lvl.
A way better system would be a dynamic insurance based on real life insurance in which you would pay every 24h a set ammount of money depending on which security zones you frequent and set up a plan to cover the actual value of your ship.
You could for example insure not only your ship and equipment but also cargo if you so desire. This would highten the accessibility of the game and make death by PK/piracy far less annoying than it actually is.
What EVE does instead is make you pay a collateral to the player for transport missions before you run it, making your loss in case of PK/piracy at least 10 times more hurtful than just loosing your ship.
Most FFA full loot PVP games are incredibly inaccessible for new players and frustrating beyond belief, thats why they always stay niche-titles.
I mean come-on, even in a game like Dark Souls, a game that grabs you by the balls and tries to murder your self-confidence every step of the way, all you really loose in PVP on death is your souls (currency), not your gear, not your stats or skills.
Most FFA full loot PVP games are made by, and for, people that enjoy intense masochistic punishment, and then they wonder why this game is not very popular with the general public.
Thats not at all what I meant. In full loot games, the fact that you can lose your items makes you actually think about what you are doing in the game. Instead of just walking blindly from quest hub to quest hub, you need to be aware of your surroundings which leads to more intense encounters.
Basically I'm trying to say that in themparks today (before some salty EQ vet chastises me) there is no risk to anything.
There's no thought process needed, its just kill these things because this guy asked you to.
It is semi right but full loot is also a griefing problem , when you farm for 2 hour and cannot bank anytime soon because you're so far out it sucks and make a lot of people rage against the game...and while its not 100 hour someone who can play 2 hour a night and get ganked on his way home is a lost customer.
A better system would be gear penalty on death ( durability decay ) and gear prestige ( gear gains prestige level as you kill people). That way your iron banded armor could start at 99 durability 0 prestige ...after killing someone and dying once your gear would be durability 88 and prestige 1 ( +50 armor).
Not saying it's a better system but there have been plenty of full loot game and the end is always the same...niche game.
The only mmorpg "full loot" that is somewhat working is eve online because when you die you don't really loose anything , in fact it is quite beneficial for the whole community because you can insure your ship and buy another one for the same amount of money it costed you , in theory simply making the player driven economy work twice as much as if there 100% loss.
When the winner gets all and the looser is back home in his boxer you end up with a very loopsided game and it fails. Eve gives a chance to the runner by making the looser not loose so much.
Im with the OP. I love the fact that full-loot is a good death penalty. I personally dont like games where death is trivial.
Although Im more of a crafter so if someone takes my gear I always have a spare set in the bank and most likely the person who looted my armor will notice its probably not my best set I could make. I only wear my best during important wars when guild territory is at stake and not when Im just out adventuring or screwing around.
I actually agree that full loot can be fun, but it requires 1 key thing:
Stats need to be even between vets and noobs
Darkfall failed largely becuase people who 24/7 macro grinded gained massive advantages over noobs and casuals. Nobody is going to stick around if they are just going to get farmed, thus the game kills its own future revenue stream and becomes empty once the people who max out quit. A pvp games needs a healthy population.
In order to maintain a solid playerbase, these games must appeal to two crowds.
The first are the wolves.
We sometimes call them griefers in games - they get their pleasure at the expense of other players. Wolves love the idea of full loot - not necessarily because it's a way to get better gear that offers risk, but because it is a way to get satisfaction by separating a player's material possessions from him or her.
Even though wolves may claim that they enjoy risk and challenge, they are not immersed into the game by risk at all - most will do their best to risk very little in their hunt for player tears and game the system so that there is as little resistance / challenge as possible in separating player pixels from their cold, dead bodies.
The veteran player who has little need for gear and can afford to risk little in player killing is a wolf - hunting down players not for their materials, but for their cries on forums and in chat. As the superstars of the sandbox, these players become the core of any full loot game.
But wolves need easy food or they will quickly die off, having no interest in the game at hand without someone's day to ruin. So the developers must attempt to attract..
Sheep. The purpose of sheep is two-fold - to display that a game is quite lively (and ripe for new wolves to join in), and to be food for the wolves already in the game. Sheep might not be completely sold on the idea of full loot, but they are willing to try it out because they may be bored of other loot rules or they are just looking for something new. They may also join a game under the illusion that they will become a wolf (more on this later).
Sheep are constantly looking over their shoulder in the game. While sheep label this as 'awareness', it's really just a term used to mask the fact that they are not hunting other players - they are being hunted. Wolves know that sheep play reactively instead of proactively, and can exploit this to their advantage every time. Sheep obtain a thrill based on the fact that the game is full loot PvP, which motivates and influences all of their actions.
A player who says something like these following statements about a game are sheep.
-"It's deeper than other games because you have to watch your back"
-"Full loot offers suspense / excitement"
The wolf never has to watch his or her back, because they are confident and realize that they couldn't care less about being hunted - their main concern at all times is hunting sheep. A wolf never plays reactively unless they are playing with their prey. They may certainly be excited about a game, but it's only because there are fresh sheep to kill and not because they are held in suspense. A wolf may try to cause suspense to sheep, again, if they enjoy toying with the sheep.
-"There are consequences for every action you take"
-"You are actually risking something when you play, which makes the game more intense"
-"There is a risk/reward factor"
There are no real consequences for a wolf. They have nothing to lose because anything that they are holding can be easily replaced by their superior time / effort / wealth in the game. Instead, the only risk involved is that of the sheep. A wolf will always kill a sheep, 100% of the time - if a sheep gets away from a 'wolf', then the wolf is really just a sheep pretending to be a wolf.
Sheep can come from many backgrounds - from the totally clueless newbie to the 'vet' who thinks he's good, but really is just food for the wolves all the time. Meeting a wolf on the forums is fairly rare - a wolf who understands how the game works would never advertise that they are a wolf, but would instead attempt to encourage new sheep to join.
---
So developers must bring in sheep to feed the wolves.
Using the allure of becoming a wolf is probably the major one. If a game heavily promotes its wolves to advertise and show off their stories, then outside players will think that it's possible for them to become one of them and prey on the weak. EVE Online does this farily often - the EVE is Real site as well as the "I Was There" / "Causality" videos are clear adaptations of how wolves and the idea of a wolf are used by game developers to bring in the sheep by the herd. As mentioned above, this illusion of power can make sheep believe that they will be wolves, which eases their entry into the game.
A sheep won't stay in the game forever if things look helpless, however. Sheep must be helped along and feel like they have some purpose in the game, or they will leave as soon as the wolves take too many bites out of them.
EVE does this perfectly with high-sec - while there's still a risk of getting killed, it's very low. Sheep can thrive in high-sec and support wolves at the same time - corporations and alliances can include sheep that have the sole purpose of making their wolves more powerful. CCP loves newbies and vehemently hates anyone that tries to ruin their day, which makes sheep believe that there is a chance of them becoming someone important in the game.
Darkfall doesn't work as well. Since there are even fewer zones that you are actually safe in, sheep are constant food for wolves. In order to make any kind of meaningful progress, sheep must make themselves completely open to wolf attacks. If a sheep cannot progress at all and hits a brick wall, then they will quit the game because they will realize that either they are just sheep, or they are not having fun.
In my opinion, this is why games like Darkfall will always be a niche. Sheep are never enticed to stick it out, which leaves wolves to starve. Remember, wolves do not actually like challenge - although they may say that in order to entice certain MMORPG players, wolves are all about mitigating all challenge and risk for the purpose of making people mad. Because of this, wolves will rarely attack other wolves. Sheep attacking sheep is quite common however, especially in large clans and organizations, as they attempt to repress their insecurities.
Bottom line - developers must cater to both sheep and wolves in order to make a game which pleases the griefers (the core playerbase) while providing enough incentive for the sheep to stay and get eaten by the wolves. You tend to livestock to make them grow nice and plump before you butcher them for a reason - it's the same way in full loot games.
I agree I love full loot MMO's because of the risk/reward factor...but its such a niche market now because of the way MMO's have evolved (or de-evolved as some would see it) over the years.
Bascially the majority of the MMO community has been trained on theme park MMOs where the main point of the game is to get gear and loot. These people then hear about a game where you can lose everything on death and automatically run away thinking it's crazy to play a game where they sword the farmed a raid boss 12 times to get could be lost.
They just don't realize that most full loot games are built around the fact that you will die and loose stuff...so the grind to get top tier gear really isn't bad. Also I think some people just don't like competition in MMO's...they want to be able to basically play it like a solo game.
@ Khaeros
I honestly couldn't disagree more.
You are lumping every player into one of two categories.
What about a person in a clan who does gathering some times and clan fights other times?
Basically my philosphy of full loot games is summed up by this famous quote
"Sometimes you are the pidgeon, sometimes you are the statue"