Not sure about anyone else but I could never fathom why people dont like full loot games, or full loot servers for games. Everything that is a common complaint on these boards is solved from full loot.
I agree with you completely but I'll explain why.
The community of MMO gamers today is very different from September of 1997 when UO released. In both UO and on Darktide in AC there were a number of different ideologies among guilds. Simply put, good guys, bad guys, neutral and shades between.
While I agree with how much better a loot pvp game is for players in the power it gives them, it also gives them the power to destroy the fun of the game as well. The lack of players, guilds, helping solo players against random pking, which creates great pvp by the way; also contributes to making the game less attractive to the average player. In the absence of players taking the initiative to do what game code should not have to do; we'll never see the glory days of UO or Darktide return. It's ironic really, because the players that love these types of games like us actually are the same people that drive others away. It doesn't have to be that way and usually isn't if all characters are red to each other but unfortuantely that's not the case in DFO.
I'm a huge fan of Darkfall and of loot drop pvp games. A mistake Darkfall made imho is not making every one red to each other regardless of same faction or not. It is only when all players can freely attack each other that you see a significant political map evolve. I'm not talkihng politics as you know them in DFO where it's gvg or alliance vs alliance based upon cities; although that would exist. You see, politics that are created due to a necessity to simply survive and play actually make loot pvp games easier for the average person. Factions and karma systems create exactly what the devs. believe they are designed to prevent.
-CC
"Lately it occurs to me, what a long, strange trip it's been". -Hunter
My game will have a fully functioning EvE like economy with only pve. You just have to set up the PvE right.
I promise you that it won't. I know you probably think you have a great idea for a PVE only economy, and won't share the details because you're gonna make millions, but I'll save you the suspense: you don't, and you won't. Games create credit every time a mob is killed and drops loot with a monetary value. This causes inflation, unless you have some form of credit destruction, i.e. insurance, reagents, consumables, though this usually isn't enough. Case in point, every PVE MMO ever made. This extends to gear as well. There are only two reasons to replace gear in any RPG: obsolescence, or deprivation. The first is what WoW does -- they make gear obsolete so you have to get the next set to stay relevant in the game. This is horrifically taxing on the developer, as new content constantly needs to be churned out for consumption. The second is deprivation -- the gear is either able to be stolen, or has a finite number of uses before it breaks, rendering it in need of replacement. Think UO, EVE, even Minecraft.
Your mistake is your fundamental lack of understanding of how real economies operate. Economies aren't designed, they evolve. Creating an artificial resource scarcity that is analogous to the real world is the only way to guarantee a functioning economy, and since violence is a corollary of scarcity, you will get world PVP and meaningful interactions as a result.
Btw, I'm not the wolf, the sheepdog, or the sheep. I'm the goddamn shepherd. That's the poorest analogy for human interaction in an MMO that I've ever seen. Players aren't one dimensional, and griefers have as valid a claim to a game as anyone else. Why does dying in an MMO stress you out so much? Is it your expectation that you should never die at all? What about dying in PVE? It sounds self-entitled to me to want to play in a game full of other people, and expect never to be inconvenienced in any way. How do you deal with traffic in the morning? Do you quit when the coffee machine breaks down? You assume that griefers care enough to want to ruin the game for other people, but that plainly isn't the case.
Your wrong. Full loot is a niche and nothing more and is a barrier for getting people to play. With that being said there is absolutely nothing wrong with having different shards/worlds/servers with different rulesets. If games Like Asherons Call and UO (trammel) that are 12+ years long can offer different ruleset servers then a new game can do the same.
Your wrong. Full loot is a niche and nothing more and is a barrier for getting people to play. With that being said there is absolutely nothing wrong with having different shards/worlds/servers with different rulesets. If games Like Asherons Call and UO (trammel) that are 12+ years long can offer different ruleset servers then a new game can do the same.
- Dont like doing the same raid over and over, only to be able to do another raid over and over? In full loot games there is no focus on raids in the PvE sense. If you want to get loot the best way would be off another players back.
I would never go out of my way to take anyones possibly hard earned gear to myself, which is why I hate full loot games. It's not fair, and even thinking about doing it disgusts me.
Full loot games offer a complete MMO experience. A themepark can offer some aspects with the need to group to defeat certain npc's, but a full looter sandbox such as Darkfall offers the complete package as a real MMO experience in my opinion, as you're forced to unite with others for success, you come to rely on and trust those you're fighting with, something sadly that is being lost in MMO's as the solo player continues to get the love from developers.
The billion ISK skirmishes have no risk either. The corporations involved in this kind of "hobby" risk nothing more than a stick.
Your illusion comes from thinking that 100 billion ISK is a lot for those people while they risk no more than a fraction of their resources.
Tell me, is 1 million $ a risk for Bill Gates?
Nobody of them risks anything, they are playing with their prey or fighting over scraps, for fun.
Where is that magic "risk/reward" you are talking about, clarly i must be missing it.
What about multiple billion isk skirmishes that end with one side constantly losing and eventually having issues replacing member losses. And as a result they simply stop contesting key systems and simply allow a steamroll as an every man for himself mentality takes hold and assets are being evacuated daily? Isn't there a real loss there? This is usually a prelude to an alliance-wide failure cascade. Entire alliances have been annihilated because of losing key battles, losing morale and the will to continue fighting, individual members losing lots of ships and not being reimbursed.
Most MMO players don't like and won't play full loot games.
OP does not get people who don't like full loot games.
-> OP does not get most MMO players, and the trend of the MMO market.
trend of the MMO market...thats funny
here is the trend for you
MMO Games became MMO Entertainment Softwarre
its not a game if you can't lose...
I really don't know where the genre goes from here. Maybe it will just implode and find a way to reinvent itself.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Full loot games offer a complete MMO experience. A themepark can offer some aspects with the need to group to defeat certain npc's, but a full looter sandbox such as Darkfall offers the complete package as a real MMO experience in my opinion, as you're forced to unite with others for success, you come to rely on and trust those you're fighting with, something sadly that is being lost in MMO's as the solo player continues to get the love from developers.
Who cares about "complete"? If it is not fun, i am not interested.
And why would "relying on and trust those" is fun?
I don't need to trust everyone usnig the lfd tool in wow and i still have fun. Why do I want to go through the aggravation of full loot games?
Full loot games offer a complete MMO experience. A themepark can offer some aspects with the need to group to defeat certain npc's, but a full looter sandbox such as Darkfall offers the complete package as a real MMO experience in my opinion, as you're forced to unite with others for success, you come to rely on and trust those you're fighting with, something sadly that is being lost in MMO's as the solo player continues to get the love from developers.
Who cares about "complete"? If it is not fun, i am not interested.
And why would "relying on and trust those" is fun?
I don't need to trust everyone usnig the lfd tool in wow and i still have fun. Why do I want to go through the aggravation of full loot games?
What's aggtavating about full loot? It doesn't take 1 month of hamster wheel grinding to get gear in full loot games. You accumulate resources in your regular playtime which is used to fuel the full loot aspect of the game. So when you die, the loss is minimal. It's practically an expensive repair cost. You do lose a minimal part of your gathered resources,but you re-equip stuff and get back into the action with very minimal downtime.
Full loot is not as bad as ppl like to make it out to be. It simply adds more risk adn reward to adventurring, and pvping. Adds adrenaline, makes sutff fun... for a niche group. If you don't like that added risk/reward it's understandable. But i think a lot more players would enjoy full loot if they simply got over their personal investment to pixels. Because it's really not harsh as people make it out to be.
Comments
I agree with you completely but I'll explain why.
The community of MMO gamers today is very different from September of 1997 when UO released. In both UO and on Darktide in AC there were a number of different ideologies among guilds. Simply put, good guys, bad guys, neutral and shades between.
While I agree with how much better a loot pvp game is for players in the power it gives them, it also gives them the power to destroy the fun of the game as well. The lack of players, guilds, helping solo players against random pking, which creates great pvp by the way; also contributes to making the game less attractive to the average player. In the absence of players taking the initiative to do what game code should not have to do; we'll never see the glory days of UO or Darktide return. It's ironic really, because the players that love these types of games like us actually are the same people that drive others away. It doesn't have to be that way and usually isn't if all characters are red to each other but unfortuantely that's not the case in DFO.
I'm a huge fan of Darkfall and of loot drop pvp games. A mistake Darkfall made imho is not making every one red to each other regardless of same faction or not. It is only when all players can freely attack each other that you see a significant political map evolve. I'm not talkihng politics as you know them in DFO where it's gvg or alliance vs alliance based upon cities; although that would exist. You see, politics that are created due to a necessity to simply survive and play actually make loot pvp games easier for the average person. Factions and karma systems create exactly what the devs. believe they are designed to prevent.
-CC
"Lately it occurs to me,
what a long, strange trip it's been". -Hunter
I promise you that it won't. I know you probably think you have a great idea for a PVE only economy, and won't share the details because you're gonna make millions, but I'll save you the suspense: you don't, and you won't. Games create credit every time a mob is killed and drops loot with a monetary value. This causes inflation, unless you have some form of credit destruction, i.e. insurance, reagents, consumables, though this usually isn't enough. Case in point, every PVE MMO ever made. This extends to gear as well. There are only two reasons to replace gear in any RPG: obsolescence, or deprivation. The first is what WoW does -- they make gear obsolete so you have to get the next set to stay relevant in the game. This is horrifically taxing on the developer, as new content constantly needs to be churned out for consumption. The second is deprivation -- the gear is either able to be stolen, or has a finite number of uses before it breaks, rendering it in need of replacement. Think UO, EVE, even Minecraft.
Your mistake is your fundamental lack of understanding of how real economies operate. Economies aren't designed, they evolve. Creating an artificial resource scarcity that is analogous to the real world is the only way to guarantee a functioning economy, and since violence is a corollary of scarcity, you will get world PVP and meaningful interactions as a result.
Btw, I'm not the wolf, the sheepdog, or the sheep. I'm the goddamn shepherd. That's the poorest analogy for human interaction in an MMO that I've ever seen. Players aren't one dimensional, and griefers have as valid a claim to a game as anyone else. Why does dying in an MMO stress you out so much? Is it your expectation that you should never die at all? What about dying in PVE? It sounds self-entitled to me to want to play in a game full of other people, and expect never to be inconvenienced in any way. How do you deal with traffic in the morning? Do you quit when the coffee machine breaks down? You assume that griefers care enough to want to ruin the game for other people, but that plainly isn't the case.
No, he's right and YOU are wrong.
really? how many full loot games are successful?
checkmate
I would never go out of my way to take anyones possibly hard earned gear to myself, which is why I hate full loot games. It's not fair, and even thinking about doing it disgusts me.
Full loot games offer a complete MMO experience. A themepark can offer some aspects with the need to group to defeat certain npc's, but a full looter sandbox such as Darkfall offers the complete package as a real MMO experience in my opinion, as you're forced to unite with others for success, you come to rely on and trust those you're fighting with, something sadly that is being lost in MMO's as the solo player continues to get the love from developers.
Full loot means items cannot have much value.
So all you can do in full loot games is improving the stats of your character. Which puts a severe limit on what things you can do in a game.
Thus full loot is a niche.
Personally I'm not interested in that concept.
If its done like in EVE, though, its okay.
What about multiple billion isk skirmishes that end with one side constantly losing and eventually having issues replacing member losses. And as a result they simply stop contesting key systems and simply allow a steamroll as an every man for himself mentality takes hold and assets are being evacuated daily? Isn't there a real loss there? This is usually a prelude to an alliance-wide failure cascade. Entire alliances have been annihilated because of losing key battles, losing morale and the will to continue fighting, individual members losing lots of ships and not being reimbursed.
I really don't know where the genre goes from here. Maybe it will just implode and find a way to reinvent itself.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Who cares about "complete"? If it is not fun, i am not interested.
And why would "relying on and trust those" is fun?
I don't need to trust everyone usnig the lfd tool in wow and i still have fun. Why do I want to go through the aggravation of full loot games?
What's aggtavating about full loot? It doesn't take 1 month of hamster wheel grinding to get gear in full loot games. You accumulate resources in your regular playtime which is used to fuel the full loot aspect of the game. So when you die, the loss is minimal. It's practically an expensive repair cost. You do lose a minimal part of your gathered resources,but you re-equip stuff and get back into the action with very minimal downtime.
Full loot is not as bad as ppl like to make it out to be. It simply adds more risk adn reward to adventurring, and pvping. Adds adrenaline, makes sutff fun... for a niche group. If you don't like that added risk/reward it's understandable. But i think a lot more players would enjoy full loot if they simply got over their personal investment to pixels. Because it's really not harsh as people make it out to be.