Why all the hate?

JesseBFox

I find it interesting that this thread has gotten so off-topic in so many different directions.

 

The original post was about a 'recent surge of gw2 hate' on the forums (which i have not really noticed but that is besides the point)

Some were on topic saying that the recent surge is because of GW2 "Fanbois" being so rampant and hostile all over other forums and it is payback. They ignore the fact that it is just as wrong to "payback" and that makes them just as bad. Anyone who goes to a TOR forum with no intention of discourse but just to rip the game, or it's fans is just plain sad. Doing the same in GW2's forum in retribution, imho, is even more sad.

Of course then we get the example of the widespread mayhem these "GW2 fanbois" are of spreading "hate" to other forums, and it just ends up being a very (imho) minor example of something dubbed "viral marketing" and no actual "hate".

When asked to provide an example of this widespread hate being spread by GW2 fanbois, the response in short is they have to prove nothing to us, because it would take so much work to dig up these threads. Which is a clear indication that it is not as widespread as was being made out.

 

Look, there are jerks who use GW2 to post crap in other forums for no other reason than to stir the pot. That is not good. There are people like that who follow just about every game. There are people who get enjoyment out of yanking people's chains on forums (shocking!) and probably have no desire to play whatever game they are propping up to stir the pot. The original question was about why all the hate. It is pretty clear that there is a lot of hate because people are jerks, period.

Some people just believe being a jerk to a wide range of people is justified if a tiny percentage of that population was a jerk to you. I disagree with this, but like anything it is my opinion and you are free to disagree.

As to the endless TOR vs GW2 argument, why does a comparison have to come up in nearly every thread? They are very different games with very different goals and very different business models in the same very wide genre. It's not like madden vs 2kx football where it is the same base game. They are both very good in their own right and there is no wrong choice. Some people even *gasp* could like both!

crewthief

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by DannyGlover

You have to realize that when Anet made their manifesto video last year, they set the tone for this hate machine we see in force today. Anet took the stance of "everybody else is doing it wrong" and the internet bandwagon was filled to capacity almost overnight.

It was a free pass for every hater to jump in and bash anything that wasn't "innovative". Now the backlash leaves people asking "why the hate?" You tell me, Anet.

In a nutshell this^^, comments like this aren't going to hep much either:

"It is amazing how the fact that we are dedicated to make the best PC game possible is completely ignored and unfounded Angst is running rampant."-Martin Kerstein

Hell Bioware was kicked in the face for cracking jokes here and there in reference to common concerns.

Bioware didn't have any prior MMO experience, Anet does. 

Master10K

Originally posted by SteeJanz

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by DannyGlover

You have to realize that when Anet made their manifesto video last year, they set the tone for this hate machine we see in force today. Anet took the stance of "everybody else is doing it wrong" and the internet bandwagon was filled to capacity almost overnight.

It was a free pass for every hater to jump in and bash anything that wasn't "innovative". Now the backlash leaves people asking "why the hate?" You tell me, Anet.

In a nutshell this^^, comments like this aren't going to hep much either:

"It is amazing how the fact that we are dedicated to make the best PC game possible is completely ignored and unfounded Angst is running rampant."-Martin Kerstein

Hell Bioware was kicked in the face for cracking jokes here and there in reference to common concerns.

I don't see this as cracking a joke.  This was a community manager making post #194 in a thread that was exploding with posters that refused to recognize that making a PC game is their first priority.  You would make a more valid point if you use his post where he smarts off to a guy about  not wanting to sound PR. 

IMO people don't dislike SWTOR because of the community managers.  Nor will they avoid GW2 because of Martin's reponses.   I think people dislike SWTOR because of the direction they took with their game.  For the most part I don't get the dislike because they did exactly what they said they were going to do.  IMO the following are the two biggest reasons why people dislike SWTOR.

1.  They followed they WOW formula and they stated that others where dumb if they didn't follow it.  The biggest problem with this is if you are going to follow they WOW formula, it has to be better than WOW in every way.  Build quality, PVP, UI, content, etc., it has to as good or better otherwise it won't compete.  Most MMO fans have seen this entirely too much lately and it hasn't worked for one of the WOW clones.   Simply copying WOW and putting it in the Star Wars universe is not good enough and it lacks creativity (this was a suprise coming from Bioware.)  It is perfectly fine to make a WOW clone but it better be at least as good.    Calling people dumb for not following it kinda opens you up for a virtual kick in the groin. 

2.  This is the reason why I didn't get SWTOR.  I was on the fence because I am a huge Star Wars nerd but after the following two comments from MMORPG's Pax East panel, it was easy to make my decision.

Opening question: Where do you see online games going in the next 10 years?

Colin Johanson - GW2

I would say that the trend we see in the games that have come out recently is we're going less and less from linear content to more and more into open worlds and MMOs being a world more than anything else. I think each developer in his own right is making worlds right now and a gamespace for you to play in. I think you're going to see more content built towards that, where you're just out exploring and enjoying the world. I think worlds as a development tool is what you're going to see more of in the next 10 years.

James Ohlen -- SWTOR

Well, I'm going to have to take a contrary opinion to [Colin]. I have been with BioWare for a long time, so I'm kind of a little bit biased on the story end. I really do believe though that MMORPGs are RPGs at heart. If you look at MMORPGs as roleplaying games over the years, they have been more and more focused on story. And story is being made better and more immersive and more cinematic. You have seen a lot of improvements in RPGs. In MMORPGs, you haven't been seeing as many improvements, but I think you are in the next decade, or at least, I hope we are because that's the kind of game I want to play, not because I'm working on Star Wars: The Old Republic right now and that's what it's all about. I hope that's what we do see in 10 years, and it's probably going to happen.

As a MMO player, I agree  with Colin.  James spelled out almost a year ago exactly what SWTOR would focus on.  I do enjoy story but I don't play an MMO for story and I don't think most of the MMO crowd does.  Bioware's focus was to lean heavily on a single player experience.  GW2 focus will be on the world and about what happens in it.  We don't know yet if it will work out but it sounds a ton more fun then cinematics. 

Oh yeah, I remember that MMO Panel. Mostly had each of the devs, for their respective dev studios, giving answers that would benefit them and their future product. What I liked about it was that you could tell the direction each studio was headed, with their own games. It is why I found Jame's reponses quite amusing, because he completely disregards what makes an MMO, an MMO.

Robsolf

Originally posted by Loke666

Well, bashing TOR seems to have become boring now so they go after the next big launch. It will get worse close to and just after release, a lot worse.

There it is.

Some people are career "EVERYTHING" bashers.  Makes them feel as though they have sophisticated taste in (fill in the blank).  Funny thing is, they think it'll make others see them that way as well, rather than the total douche that it actually makes them look like.

Anyhoo, I've had to tolerate the constant TOR bashing for months now, often by GW2 people.  But guess what?  I'm not gonna return the favor.  Of all the online games out there, good and lame alike, there's just no lamer game out there than constantly bashing other people's games.

Distopia

Originally posted by SteeJanz

 

I don't see this as cracking a joke.  This was a community manager making post #194 in a thread that was exploding with posters that refused to recognize that making a PC game is their first priority.  You would make a more valid point if you use his post where he smarts off to a guy about  not wanting to sound PR. 

IMO people don't dislike SWTOR because of the community managers.  Nor will they avoid GW2 because of Martin's reponses.   I think people dislike SWTOR because of the direction they took with their game.  For the most part I don't get the dislike because they did exactly what they said they were going to do.  IMO the following are the two biggest reasons why people dislike SWTOR.

1.  They followed they WOW formula and they stated that others where dumb if they didn't follow it.  The biggest problem with this is if you are going to follow they WOW formula, it has to be better than WOW in every way.  Build quality, PVP, UI, content, etc., it has to as good or better otherwise it won't compete.  Most MMO fans have seen this entirely too much lately and it hasn't worked for one of the WOW clones.   Simply copying WOW and putting it in the Star Wars universe is not good enough and it lacks creativity (this was a suprise coming from Bioware.)  It is perfectly fine to make a WOW clone but it better be at least as good.    Calling people dumb for not following it kinda opens you up for a virtual kick in the groin. 

2.  This is the reason why I didn't get SWTOR.  I was on the fence because I am a huge Star Wars nerd but after the following two comments from MMORPG's Pax East panel, it was easy to make my decision.

Opening question: Where do you see online games going in the next 10 years?

Colin Johanson - GW2

I would say that the trend we see in the games that have come out recently is we're going less and less from linear content to more and more into open worlds and MMOs being a world more than anything else. I think each developer in his own right is making worlds right now and a gamespace for you to play in. I think you're going to see more content built towards that, where you're just out exploring and enjoying the world. I think worlds as a development tool is what you're going to see more of in the next 10 years.

James Ohlen -- SWTOR

Well, I'm going to have to take a contrary opinion to [Colin]. I have been with BioWare for a long time, so I'm kind of a little bit biased on the story end. I really do believe though that MMORPGs are RPGs at heart. If you look at MMORPGs as roleplaying games over the years, they have been more and more focused on story. And story is being made better and more immersive and more cinematic. You have seen a lot of improvements in RPGs. In MMORPGs, you haven't been seeing as many improvements, but I think you are in the next decade, or at least, I hope we are because that's the kind of game I want to play, not because I'm working on Star Wars: The Old Republic right now and that's what it's all about. I hope that's what we do see in 10 years, and it's probably going to happen.

As a MMO player, I agree  with Colin.  James spelled out almost a year ago exactly what SWTOR would focus on.  I do enjoy story but I don't play an MMO for story and I don't think most of the MMO crowd does.  Bioware's focus was to lean heavily on a single player experience.  GW2 focus will be on the world and about what happens in it.  We don't know yet if it will work out but it sounds a ton more fun then cinematics. 

What does any of this have to do with what I said? The comments I was referring to were long before TOR's Beta let alone release. What I said had nothing to do with why people hate on Bioware now.

I too agree with Johanson, but I'm still not sure where this swing to left field came from.

Nazgol

It's only just beginning.

Kickaxe

Originally posted by Master10K

Originally posted by SteeJanz

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by DannyGlover

You have to realize that when Anet made their manifesto video last year, they set the tone for this hate machine we see in force today. Anet took the stance of "everybody else is doing it wrong" and the internet bandwagon was filled to capacity almost overnight.

It was a free pass for every hater to jump in and bash anything that wasn't "innovative". Now the backlash leaves people asking "why the hate?" You tell me, Anet.

In a nutshell this^^, comments like this aren't going to hep much either:

"It is amazing how the fact that we are dedicated to make the best PC game possible is completely ignored and unfounded Angst is running rampant."-Martin Kerstein

Hell Bioware was kicked in the face for cracking jokes here and there in reference to common concerns.

I don't see this as cracking a joke.  This was a community manager making post #194 in a thread that was exploding with posters that refused to recognize that making a PC game is their first priority.  You would make a more valid point if you use his post where he smarts off to a guy about  not wanting to sound PR. 

IMO people don't dislike SWTOR because of the community managers.  Nor will they avoid GW2 because of Martin's reponses.   I think people dislike SWTOR because of the direction they took with their game.  For the most part I don't get the dislike because they did exactly what they said they were going to do.  IMO the following are the two biggest reasons why people dislike SWTOR.

1.  They followed they WOW formula and they stated that others where dumb if they didn't follow it.  The biggest problem with this is if you are going to follow they WOW formula, it has to be better than WOW in every way.  Build quality, PVP, UI, content, etc., it has to as good or better otherwise it won't compete.  Most MMO fans have seen this entirely too much lately and it hasn't worked for one of the WOW clones.   Simply copying WOW and putting it in the Star Wars universe is not good enough and it lacks creativity (this was a suprise coming from Bioware.)  It is perfectly fine to make a WOW clone but it better be at least as good.    Calling people dumb for not following it kinda opens you up for a virtual kick in the groin. 

2.  This is the reason why I didn't get SWTOR.  I was on the fence because I am a huge Star Wars nerd but after the following two comments from MMORPG's Pax East panel, it was easy to make my decision.

Opening question: Where do you see online games going in the next 10 years?

Colin Johanson - GW2

I would say that the trend we see in the games that have come out recently is we're going less and less from linear content to more and more into open worlds and MMOs being a world more than anything else. I think each developer in his own right is making worlds right now and a gamespace for you to play in. I think you're going to see more content built towards that, where you're just out exploring and enjoying the world. I think worlds as a development tool is what you're going to see more of in the next 10 years.

James Ohlen -- SWTOR

Well, I'm going to have to take a contrary opinion to [Colin]. I have been with BioWare for a long time, so I'm kind of a little bit biased on the story end. I really do believe though that MMORPGs are RPGs at heart. If you look at MMORPGs as roleplaying games over the years, they have been more and more focused on story. And story is being made better and more immersive and more cinematic. You have seen a lot of improvements in RPGs. In MMORPGs, you haven't been seeing as many improvements, but I think you are in the next decade, or at least, I hope we are because that's the kind of game I want to play, not because I'm working on Star Wars: The Old Republic right now and that's what it's all about. I hope that's what we do see in 10 years, and it's probably going to happen.

As a MMO player, I agree  with Colin.  James spelled out almost a year ago exactly what SWTOR would focus on.  I do enjoy story but I don't play an MMO for story and I don't think most of the MMO crowd does.  Bioware's focus was to lean heavily on a single player experience.  GW2 focus will be on the world and about what happens in it.  We don't know yet if it will work out but it sounds a ton more fun then cinematics. 

Oh yeah, I remember that MMO Panel. Mostly had each of the devs, for their respective dev studios, giving answers that would benefit them and their future product. What I liked about it was that you could tell the direction each studio was headed, with their own games. It is why I found Jame's reponses quite amusing, because he completely disregards what makes an MMO, an MMO.   (emphasis added)

This certainly is a popular view (that TOR is not an MMO) among many posters on this site.  I personally find it to be a narrow view, and akin to pigeonholing.

 

Both of the games in question, TOR and GW2, are going to be abundantly flawed, and yet some of us are still going to find ways to enjoy them.  I personally find that more compelling, more important even, than how we find ways of not enjoying them.  This is not to suggest there should be no dissent; but honestly, considering the ample level of venom injected into these and other MMO forums, was there ever really any question of that?

Robsolf

Originally posted by Kickaxe

Originally posted by Master10K

Oh yeah, I remember that MMO Panel. Mostly had each of the devs, for their respective dev studios, giving answers that would benefit them and their future product. What I liked about it was that you could tell the direction each studio was headed, with their own games. It is why I found Jame's reponses quite amusing, because he completely disregards what makes an MMO, an MMO.   (emphasis added)

This certainly is a popular view (that TOR is not an MMO) among many posters on this site.  I personally find it to be a narrow view, and akin to pigeonholing.

 Both of the games in question, TOR and GW2, are going to be abundantly flawed, and yet some of us are still going to find ways to enjoy them.  I personally find that more compelling, more important even, than how we find ways of not enjoying them.  This is not to suggest there should be no dissent; but honestly, considering the ample level of venom injected into these and other MMO forums, was there ever really any question of that?

Very well said! 

Matt_UK

Originally posted by aesperus

I just noticed a recent surge of GW2 hate over the forums, and I guess I just don't understand where this is all coming from. GW2 has had it's fair share of hate in the past, primarily from excited TOR fans, but that's been more or less gone for months. There's no real new info about this game, other than the news of beta being out, and that the game will be playable in beta form sometime in the following months.

It's still fairly vague as to when the game will actually release, though it seems highly likely that it will be out this year. So the question remains, why now? What's so important now, that there needs to be a rehash of all the information that certain players don't like, that has been cleared up months ago before the end of last year. GW2 fans have been pretty quiet lately, primarily due the lack of info. Most of which are just patiently waiting for their game to come out.

What provoked this new wave?

It's just dawned on all the ToR players that their game sucks and they are hoping GW2 will too. It won't...