Originally posted by manday Yes, I must be totally oblivious to my favorite aspect of the games I play. Im a crafter. Im an opportunist. I can sit at an Auction House all day to play the market, instead of lvl. But I have no idea how ingame economies work. Gimme a flippin break.
Ah, yes. Now we see the real bias in your comments. You are decrying the predatorial capitalist that is infringing on your market share.
Incidentally, being a crafter/tradesman does not bestow you with a gift of understanding of economic dynamics in the meta aspect that is under discussion here. In fact, your view is explicitly scoped to protect your own interests...completely ignoring the deeper motives in play.
You point people to vest their interests in pursuing their own items through their own actions, yet you claim to spend your time reselling items that have been obtained by others for sale to others. Is that hypocracy? Or are you just making convenience your bedmate in your debate?
Before lodging a complaint, I would request that the complainent first find out what's lodged up his rectum.
Buying/selling virtual items is not new, it's not demonic, and with good game design should not affect anybody. If you can get a powerful sword by questing, why would you need to spend X plat to buy some uber rare random drop?
The reason e-bay was so prevalent in EQ1, was that just having reasonable "must have" gear required camping. A reasonable item like Jboots required a 12-48 hour camp. Everyone should have jboots. Everyone should have access to gear that makes your life simple.
Jboots should have been a reward for a level 20 epic quest that involved a little fighting and alot of travelling.
Its just one example, there are millions of others, like FBSS, Lamentation blades, SMR, and so forth. Thats not "special" equipment, that's what everyone SHOULD have. Everyone wants a cool looking robe, and you're not going to make it more "special" by having a super rare drop that makes 50 people form a line trying to camp it.
In short, IGE succeeds because MMORPG design fails.
Fizzle's right. Buying/selling gear from MMOs is NOT new, nor is it "demonic".
It IS most likely illegal (your character's items do not belong to you, and you can only sell that wihch you own or are licensed to sell by the owner).
It IS very certainly cheating.
If the game devs (who set the rules for their game) say something is against the rules, it is. Failure to follow those rules (usually in the terms of service or EULA) constitutes cheating.
Most players are not cheaters. Most players follow the rules.
Companies like IGE do more than disrupt economies and cheapen the gaming experience for all players of a game. They also give a leg up to unscrupulous players who think that cheating in a game is acceptable social conduct. If IGE only sold products in games that allowed it, IGE would be OK in my book.
In short, IGE can best be compared to a hack site that hosts software hacks for MMOs that people can download. Their sole reason to exist is to make it easier for cheaters to cheat.
Originally posted by Owyn Fizzle's right. Buying/selling gear from MMOs is NOT new, nor is it "demonic". It IS most likely illegal (your character's items do not belong to you, and you can only sell that wihch you own or are licensed to sell by the owner). It IS very certainly cheating. If the game devs (who set the rules for their game) say something is against the rules, it is. Failure to follow those rules (usually in the terms of service or EULA) constitutes cheating. Most players are not cheaters. Most players follow the rules. Companies like IGE do more than disrupt economies and cheapen the gaming experience for all players of a game. They also give a leg up to unscrupulous players who think that cheating in a game is acceptable social conduct. If IGE only sold products in games that allowed it, IGE would be OK in my book. In short, IGE can best be compared to a hack site that hosts software hacks for MMOs that people can download. Their sole reason to exist is to make it easier for cheaters to cheat.
Technically you're paying for the 'time spent acquiring the item', a service, not the 'real' ownership of the item.
Here's a typical disclaimer from a ebay seller: "You are paying for the time spent acquiring these items. All items are now, and will remain, the sole intellectual property of <insert game company here> as outlined in the EULA. I am only providing a service."
Originally posted by Owyn If the game devs (who set the rules for their game) say something is against the rules, it is. Failure to follow those rules (usually in the terms of service or EULA) constitutes cheating.
That is absolutely correct.
Originally posted by Owyn Companies like IGE do more than disrupt economies and cheapen the gaming experience for all players of a game.
That is absolutely incorrect. I do not feel cheapened in any way by people purchasing in-game items with hard currency.
Originally posted by Owyn They also give a leg up to unscrupulous players who think that cheating in a game is acceptable social conduct.
I expect that this is an extremely small minority. Most people who deal in virtual items for hard currency are doing so because it represents a financial benefit. "Griefing" (to use the term most applicable to your quote above) is far more easily done through other means.
Originally posted by Owyn In short, IGE can best be compared to a hack site that hosts software hacks for MMOs that people can download. Their sole reason to exist is to make it easier for cheaters to cheat.
That completely misses the point of IGE and similar enterprises. They are there to profit from and facilitate the barter of virtual items for hard currency. You are completely entitled to your opinion about IGE and other services, but your statement above is specious and it detracts from the valid points you do make.
In short, IGE can best be compared to a hack site that hosts software hacks for MMOs that people can download. Their sole reason to exist is to make it easier for cheaters to cheat.That completely misses the point of IGE and similar enterprises. They are there to profit from and facilitate the barter of virtual items for hard currency. You are completely entitled to your opinion about IGE and other services, but your statement above is specious and it detracts from the valid points you do make.
Specious in what way?
Let me clarify.
Game Devs make the rules for their game. Players who do not follow the rules are cheaters. Game Devs (in most games) say the buying and selling of ingame materials with real money is against the rules. Therefore, people who buy and sell ingame items with real money are cheaters. Therefore, sites which facilitate the buying and selling of ingame items facilitate cheating.
The difference between this sort of cheat site and one which lets you download game hacks is only in degree. Cheating is cheating. Sites which support cheating in games are bad, regardless of what style of cheating they support.
Game Devs make the rules for their game. Players who do not follow the rules are cheaters. Game Devs (in most games) say the buying and selling of ingame materials with real money is against the rules. Therefore, people who buy and sell ingame items with real money are cheaters. Therefore, sites which facilitate the buying and selling of ingame items facilitate cheating.
Exactly...
If Game developers wanted a 'secondry market' for thier they would make thier own IGE style site, altough I still wouldn't agree with the practise (due to my deep rooted socialist values), we would have to accpet it.
As it stands, what they are doing is not only wrong, but illegal, and should be stopped.
Originally posted by Owyn Their sole reason to exist is to make it easier for cheaters to cheat.
...is a specious argument. You cannot defend this point of view, even though you can make a valid case for it. Their primary reason for existing is to make money, not to make it easier for cheaters to cheat.
This...
Originally posted by Owyn Sites which support cheating in games are bad, regardless of what style of cheating they support.
...is a defensible opinion, and certainly not specious. It hinges on your opinion, which is subjective...but you can probably find a good deal of corroborative evidence to support that opinion.
If you want to attack IGE for what you see as detrimental activity, then keep the argument focused on the merits. When you condemn with a broad brush stroke you overshoot your point and make it easily assailable.
Not that I care much. But I wonder how Sony and other companies would take this news. Would they team up with MMORPG to do special give aways and other events? I seem to remember something very similar with NCsoft's Lineage 2.
Originally posted by Vampyr im not protesting or supporting the adds, but i do agree that IGE and similar sites hurt games severly. but i think this way, WHO ELSE WILL ADVERTISE ON A SITE DEDICATED SOLELY TO MMORPGs???????
well obviously MMO's would
hmm, lets see what else would sell as an add on an MMO only site:
- software - hardware (specially gaming stuff, joysticks, sound accesories, special keyboards for mmo's, etc.) - Internet Service Providers - Guild and other MMO web related services - Other websites dedicated to MMO's (IE: EQmaps.com, Allakhazam, etc.)
There is a few I came up with off the top of my head, and some of those categories are pretty dam ranged.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
While I recognize that MMORPG.com needs to earn money, and strongly support it doing so, I also believe that businesses have responsibilities to act in an ethical manner.
IGE is a company founded on activities that are strongly unethical and questionably legal.
MMORPG.com accepting advertisement of IGE on their site shows their support of IGE's product, and IGE's stance.
I believe that most gamers are against IGE's activities. I am certain that most MMO companies are against IGE's activities.
Alienating a large percent of both MMORPG's customers and potential advertisers by advertising a company that is so questionable is probably unsound practice.
ianubis: If you can't deal with people posting opinions on a forum that disagree with yours then I suggest you leave. I'm sure you know where the door is
Originally posted by Eraserhead ianubis: If you can't deal with people posting opinions on a forum that disagree with yours then I suggest you leave. I'm sure you know where the door is
As for me, I have no problem with the debate. I enjoy it, isn't that obvious? I represent my perspective, and on some topics I will vigorously defend that opinion. The entire point of a forum is for such debates to take place.
So I think you need to look in the mirror and see if your advice is best directed at yourself.
Originally posted by Eraserhead ianubis: If you can't deal with people posting opinions on a forum that disagree with yours then I suggest you leave. I'm sure you know where the door is
As for me, I have no problem with the debate. I enjoy it, isn't that obvious? I represent my perspective, and on some topics I will vigorously defend that opinion. The entire point of a forum is for such debates to take place.
So I think you need to look in the mirror and see if your advice is best directed at yourself.
What kind of tongue twisted trickery is this lol? I was commenting on your suggestion that someone else should leave.
Again i'm curious, do anti-IGE people want the games to somehow 'shut down' ebaying vet players and guilds too, or are those more acceptable?
Benden wrote: ...I'm shocked IGE dare advertise
I'm surprised too, but i would like to see more of the 'secondary market' nerfed than just IGE. I'll add that this business is great 'endgame content' for some players, so there's probably a good market for several games with ebay/ige trading. As long as i dont have to help them with their quests, raiding, and fake wars, i'll try looking for other games.
I really like the MMORPG.com site. For news and updates on the genre, it's unmatched. I just hate to see them advertising a company that seems to have such a negative impact on MMOG worlds as a whole.
Ad for leaving, or "voting with my feet" on MMORPG.com - one does not make changes to society by leaving society. If you see something you disagree with, you can either quit, leave, and go elsewhere - OR - try to change the thing you dislike.
Comments
Ah, yes. Now we see the real bias in your comments. You are decrying the predatorial capitalist that is infringing on your market share.
Incidentally, being a crafter/tradesman does not bestow you with a gift of understanding of economic dynamics in the meta aspect that is under discussion here. In fact, your view is explicitly scoped to protect your own interests...completely ignoring the deeper motives in play.
You point people to vest their interests in pursuing their own items through their own actions, yet you claim to spend your time reselling items that have been obtained by others for sale to others. Is that hypocracy? Or are you just making convenience your bedmate in your debate?
Before lodging a complaint, I would request that the complainent first find out what's lodged up his rectum.
Buying/selling virtual items is not new, it's not demonic, and with good game design should not affect anybody. If you can get a powerful sword by questing, why would you need to spend X plat to buy some uber rare random drop?
The reason e-bay was so prevalent in EQ1, was that just having reasonable "must have" gear required camping. A reasonable item like Jboots required a 12-48 hour camp. Everyone should have jboots. Everyone should have access to gear that makes your life simple.
Jboots should have been a reward for a level 20 epic quest that involved a little fighting and alot of travelling.
Its just one example, there are millions of others, like FBSS, Lamentation blades, SMR, and so forth. Thats not "special" equipment, that's what everyone SHOULD have. Everyone wants a cool looking robe, and you're not going to make it more "special" by having a super rare drop that makes 50 people form a line trying to camp it.
In short, IGE succeeds because MMORPG design fails.
Fizzle's right. Buying/selling gear from MMOs is NOT new, nor is it "demonic".
It IS most likely illegal (your character's items do not belong to you, and you can only sell that wihch you own or are licensed to sell by the owner).
It IS very certainly cheating.
If the game devs (who set the rules for their game) say something is against the rules, it is. Failure to follow those rules (usually in the terms of service or EULA) constitutes cheating.
Most players are not cheaters. Most players follow the rules.
Companies like IGE do more than disrupt economies and cheapen the gaming experience for all players of a game. They also give a leg up to unscrupulous players who think that cheating in a game is acceptable social conduct. If IGE only sold products in games that allowed it, IGE would be OK in my book.
In short, IGE can best be compared to a hack site that hosts software hacks for MMOs that people can download. Their sole reason to exist is to make it easier for cheaters to cheat.
Owyn
Commander, Defenders of Order
http://www.defendersoforder.com
Technically you're paying for the 'time spent acquiring the item', a service, not the 'real' ownership of the item.
Here's a typical disclaimer from a ebay seller:
"You are paying for the time spent acquiring these items. All items are now, and will remain, the sole intellectual property of <insert game company here> as outlined in the EULA. I am only providing a service."
That is absolutely correct.
That is absolutely incorrect. I do not feel cheapened in any way by people purchasing in-game items with hard currency.
I expect that this is an extremely small minority. Most people who deal in virtual items for hard currency are doing so because it represents a financial benefit. "Griefing" (to use the term most applicable to your quote above) is far more easily done through other means.
That completely misses the point of IGE and similar enterprises. They are there to profit from and facilitate the barter of virtual items for hard currency. You are completely entitled to your opinion about IGE and other services, but your statement above is specious and it detracts from the valid points you do make.
Specious in what way?
Let me clarify.
Game Devs make the rules for their game.
Players who do not follow the rules are cheaters.
Game Devs (in most games) say the buying and selling of ingame materials with real money is against the rules.
Therefore, people who buy and sell ingame items with real money are cheaters.
Therefore, sites which facilitate the buying and selling of ingame items facilitate cheating.
The difference between this sort of cheat site and one which lets you download game hacks is only in degree. Cheating is cheating. Sites which support cheating in games are bad, regardless of what style of cheating they support.
Owyn
Commander, Defenders of Order
http://www.defendersoforder.com
Exactly...
If Game developers wanted a 'secondry market' for thier they would make thier own IGE style site, altough I still wouldn't agree with the practise (due to my deep rooted socialist values), we would have to accpet it.
As it stands, what they are doing is not only wrong, but illegal, and should be stopped.
...is a specious argument. You cannot defend this point of view, even though you can make a valid case for it. Their primary reason for existing is to make money, not to make it easier for cheaters to cheat.This...
This...
...is a defensible opinion, and certainly not specious. It hinges on your opinion, which is subjective...but you can probably find a good deal of corroborative evidence to support that opinion.If you want to attack IGE for what you see as detrimental activity, then keep the argument focused on the merits. When you condemn with a broad brush stroke you overshoot your point and make it easily assailable.
Not that I care much. But I wonder how Sony and other companies would take this news. Would they team up with MMORPG to do special give aways and other events? I seem to remember something very similar with NCsoft's Lineage 2.
Like I said though, I could care less.
im not protesting or supporting the adds, but i do agree that IGE and similar sites hurt games severly. but i think this way,
WHO ELSE WILL ADVERTISE ON A SITE DEDICATED SOLELY TO MMORPGs???????
98% of the teenage population does or has tried smoking pot. If you''re one of the 2% who hasn''t, copy & paste this in your signature.
I pretty much agree with everything Owyn has said.
MMORPG
Ditto, nice post Owyn.
1) I'm shocked IGE dare advertise
2) I'm shocked this site sell them ad space.
moving my a$$ outa this site btw.
[url=http://p
well obviously MMO's would
hmm, lets see what else would sell as an add on an MMO only site:
- software
- hardware (specially gaming stuff, joysticks, sound accesories, special keyboards for mmo's, etc.)
- Internet Service Providers
- Guild and other MMO web related services
- Other websites dedicated to MMO's (IE: EQmaps.com, Allakhazam, etc.)
There is a few I came up with off the top of my head, and some of those categories are pretty dam ranged.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
While I recognize that MMORPG.com needs to earn money, and strongly support it doing so, I also believe that businesses have responsibilities to act in an ethical manner.
IGE is a company founded on activities that are strongly unethical and questionably legal.
MMORPG.com accepting advertisement of IGE on their site shows their support of IGE's product, and IGE's stance.
I believe that most gamers are against IGE's activities.
I am certain that most MMO companies are against IGE's activities.
Alienating a large percent of both MMORPG's customers and potential advertisers by advertising a company that is so questionable is probably unsound practice.
Owyn
Commander, Defenders of Order
http://www.defendersoforder.com
Your continued presence in this site similarly implies your support of MMORPG.com, which daisy-chains to the support you described above.
If you want to take a stance, then do so by your actions.
MMORPG
As for me, I have no problem with the debate. I enjoy it, isn't that obvious? I represent my perspective, and on some topics I will vigorously defend that opinion. The entire point of a forum is for such debates to take place.
So I think you need to look in the mirror and see if your advice is best directed at yourself.
As for me, I have no problem with the debate. I enjoy it, isn't that obvious? I represent my perspective, and on some topics I will vigorously defend that opinion. The entire point of a forum is for such debates to take place.
So I think you need to look in the mirror and see if your advice is best directed at yourself.
What kind of tongue twisted trickery is this lol? I was commenting on your suggestion that someone else should leave.
MMORPG
Again i'm curious, do anti-IGE people want the games to somehow 'shut down' ebaying vet players and guilds too, or are those more acceptable?
Benden wrote:
...I'm shocked IGE dare advertise
I'm surprised too, but i would like to see more of the 'secondary market' nerfed than just IGE.
I'll add that this business is great 'endgame content' for some players, so there's probably a good market for several games with ebay/ige trading.
As long as i dont have to help them with their quests, raiding, and fake wars, i'll try looking for other games.
I really like the MMORPG.com site. For news and updates on the genre, it's unmatched. I just hate to see them advertising a company that seems to have such a negative impact on MMOG worlds as a whole.
Ad for leaving, or "voting with my feet" on MMORPG.com - one does not make changes to society by leaving society. If you see something you disagree with, you can either quit, leave, and go elsewhere - OR - try to change the thing you dislike.
Owyn
Commander, Defenders of Order
http://www.defendersoforder.com
In total agreement.