And i don't need to be a cook to know that food i am eating is crap. But then again thats where my expertise ends. But if i am going to start telling the cook how to cook the food and what ingredients to use i better be a good cook myself or i just better shut up and find another restaurant to eat. There is difference between being arrogant 'i know it all' and a prudent and resonable critic.
Well said.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
But you hardly need to be an expert to see that closed up worlds and massive use of loading screens is simply not good to represent open living mmorpg worlds.
If a company is too lazy to program background loading and develop its own engine with a 200 million dollar back up, I - as a normal user - question what they were doing with all that money in the first place.
You don't need to be an engineer to detect problems with your car.
You don't need to be a game developer to see problems with a rather lazy game design.
I even think EVERYONE has been very patient these last 5 years. The players, the press, the community. I think we deserve better.
And i don't need to be a cook to know that food i am eating is crap. But then again thats where my expertise ends. But if i am going to start telling the cook how to cook the food and what ingredients to use i better be a good cook myself or i just better shut up and find another restaurant to eat. There is difference between being arrogant 'i know it all' and a prudent and resonable critic.
So i guess if you taste a dish in a restaurant and its not salty enough for you, you don't ask for salt.
And i don't need to be a cook to know that food i am eating is crap. But then again thats where my expertise ends. But if i am going to start telling the cook how to cook the food and what ingredients to use i better be a good cook myself or i just better shut up and find another restaurant to eat. There is difference between being arrogant 'i know it all' and a prudent and resonable critic.
Well said.
I have no idea how you guys can think this. You don't have to be an expert if you've been playing these games for a long time to know what has worked or failed in these games. If we're talking about programming or engines then I see the point. If we're talking about mechanics, content, customization, etc. I really don't.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
So i guess if you taste a dish in a restaurant and its not salty enough for you, you don't ask for salt.
Good to know.
I guess it depends on whether he has a degree from a culinary institute as to whether he can request the additional salt or not. Least according to some.
>_>
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
And i don't need to be a cook to know that food i am eating is crap. But then again thats where my expertise ends. But if i am going to start telling the cook how to cook the food and what ingredients to use i better be a good cook myself or i just better shut up and find another restaurant to eat. There is difference between being arrogant 'i know it all' and a prudent and resonable critic.
Well said.
The thing is, how business works, is that numbers are your biggest critic. I'm all for it to share your feedback, it's actually a pretty useful thing for developers to better the game. However, if you really want to create an impact, vote with your wallet. For example, if SWTOR's use of the WoW MMO template was a bad idea, then numbers should reflect that. However, it seems it isn't a bad idea economically, therein lies the problem.
Actually I think the problem lies in that MMOs being our hobby, we depend on companies that are on a very expensive business. We cannot simply create our own game to our liking like in many other hobbies, where you can personalize your experience fully. I wish developing MMOs wasn't as expensive, then we could see many more small or indie companies get themselves wet with a good amount of quality in their games.
For example, I'm somewhat confident that if a triple AAA sandbox MMO was to be released, with all the fancy bug-free quality of top notch themepark MMOs, it would prove to be successful. But it's too big of a risk for a big company, too big of a dream for a small one.
I emplore you, oh talented ones, cross the picket lines and take up your laser pens, iPads and keyboards...create!
There's a team currently doing just that, it's called GW2. Don't worry it will be out soon, it has community, mmo support without the need to force you to do dungeons, it's eliminated the time honored mistakes of gear treadmill, global cooldown, mob tagging just so it won't feel like a single player game with multiplayer aspects. Just thought you should know.
I dunno, Columbo. To me the problem seems to be that almost all devs are scared of trying new things.
Just look on TOR, they put so much work into that game but never even considered that a sci-fi game might need different mechanics than a fantasy games.
We get the same game repacked every time a new AAA game comes out and that is the reason most new games fails so badly and that the ones who do OK like Rift and tor never can go up against Wow for real.
The devs should have figured that out after WARs disaster if not earlier.
As for listening to forum a lot of good things are actually said here as well, you just need to filter away all the crap.
The bothersom thing is the handful, comparativley speaking, that actually think they speak for the majority of the mmo gaming community, which they most certainly do not.
Every time there is a mmo launch it's the same old story
"The genre is dying"
"Why mmo's are dying"
"This is what's wrong with the industry"
"Game X should have been...."
"The sky does falleth"
Many of these people are completey ignorant to the reality of actually making an MMORPG from start to finish, launching and then expanding on a product that is, by design, supposed to last and improve over a number of years. It's incredibly easy to be a critic.
The bothersom thing is the handful, comparativley speaking, that actually think they speak for the majority of the mmo gaming community, which they most certainly do not.
Every time there is a mmo launch it's the same old story
"The genre is dying"
"Why mmo's are dying"
"This is what's wrong with the industry"
"Game X should have been...."
"The sky does falleth"
Many of these people are completey ignorant to the reality of actually making an MMORPG from start to finish, launching and then expanding on a product that is, by design, supposed to last and improve over a number of years. It's incredibly easy to be a critic.
So they exaggerate? So what? Who doesn't around here? Who doesn't refer to issues from their own viewpoint? Everyone embellishes on their points to make them more emotional and probably because it is something they are passionate about. From the haters to the fanboys to those with more reasonable views on matters. Only difference is how far they take it and how emotional they get over the matters.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Its the same reason the COD craze will die soon. the same shit in different skins gets old and boring. Plus everyone that once enjoyed the particluar format will grow out of it. And then a new wave of game designs will follow. And history will repeat itself.
But you hardly need to be an expert to see that closed up worlds and massive use of loading screens is simply not good to represent open living mmorpg worlds.
If a company is too lazy to program background loading and develop its own engine with a 200 million dollar back up, I - as a normal user - question what they were doing with all that money in the first place.
You don't need to be an engineer to detect problems with your car.
You don't need to be a game developer to see problems with a rather lazy game design.
I even think EVERYONE has been very patient these last 5 years. The players, the press, the community. I think we deserve better.
And i don't need to be a cook to know that food i am eating is crap. But then again thats where my expertise ends. But if i am going to start telling the cook how to cook the food and what ingredients to use i better be a good cook myself or i just better shut up and find another restaurant to eat. There is difference between being arrogant 'i know it all' and a prudent and resonable critic.
bingo.
To use your analogy of MMO's = resturaunts;
Well unfortunately there is nowhere else to go. When you realize the food sucks and every resturaunt you go to after that cooks the same meal, the same way... then what?
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
....is due to the fact that all the industry experts seem to hang out in forums.
*Sarcasm detector alarm sounding*
Not intended as hate or troll, here's my paraphrased version... If you people think that the design of a holy grail game is so obvious, go build one.
My response... Yeah, if only it was so easy.
To make money on a large budget game it has to be mainstream (easy and casual friendly). If it's mainstream those who want depth and difficulty aren't happy.
To make profit on a niche game with depth and difficulty it has to be low budget. If it's niche, then people who want mainstream aren't happy. If it's low budget then people who want AAA polish aren't happy.
To run on common consumer computer hardware it has to be low-poly and highly optimized. If it's low-poly then people who want "immersive" [sic] graphics aren't happy.
So the holy grail game is big budget, is mainstream, is easy to play, has depth and difficulty, has AAA polish, runs on any hardware, and has graphics that look and feel like a CG movie. ... and we haven't even touched on sandbox vs. themepark.
To that I say good-luck.
the developers of minecraft will disagree with you
Well unfortunately there is nowhere else to go. When you realize the food sucks and every resturaunt you go to after that cooks the same meal, the same way... then what?
Well, personally I'd just eat at home.
Or in the case of games, "do something else".
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I think theres a problem in genral with the games industry in that some designers have way too much ego and see themselves as frustrated film directors.
thats why you get all this linear plotting and cut scenes, not just in mmos but FPS, RTS whatever
theres also an issue that the truely great designers that come up with fresh new ideas and such have a hard time putting this accross to the money men, often if you want original cool things in a game, you have to sneak them in through the back door.
this is also why a lot of the more original ideas are coming from indie games companies, they can just go do it, they are the money man.
p.s. I'm a games programmer I see this with my own eyes.
If you imagine the publishers and development studios at places like Blizzard/Activision, EA/Bioware, CCP, Trion, Turbine, Funcom, etc. actually reading threads like this and laughing their asses off as their financial balance sheets just keep showing positive numbers.
Only thing about this genre failing is the community.
The genre is bigger, has more games, has more players, and makes more money today than it ever has in the short history of the MMORPG genre existing.
Failing...
Just because you don't like it or dislike game X or Y doesn't mean the genre is failing.
It may have failed your personal vision of what kind of games you'd like to see, as it has with ME, but the genre has not and is not failing kids.
If you imagine the publishers and development studios at places like Blizzard/Activision, EA/Bioware, CCP, Trion, Turbine, Funcom, etc. actually reading threads like this and laughing their asses off as their financial balance sheets just keep showing positive numbers.
Only thing about this genre failing is the community.
The genre is bigger, has more games, has more players, and makes more money today than it ever has in the short history of the MMORPG genre existing.
Failing...
Just because you don't like it or dislike game X or Y doesn't mean the genre is failing.
It may have failed your personal vision of what kind of games you'd like to see, as it has with ME, but the genre has not and is not failing kids.
I think given the money spent and how the game plays, SWTOR will hit EA hard in the pocket.
If you imagine the publishers and development studios at places like Blizzard/Activision, EA/Bioware, CCP, Trion, Turbine, Funcom, etc. actually reading threads like this and laughing their asses off as their financial balance sheets just keep showing positive numbers.
Only thing about this genre failing is the community.
The genre is bigger, has more games, has more players, and makes more money today than it ever has in the short history of the MMORPG genre existing.
Failing...
Just because you don't like it or dislike game X or Y doesn't mean the genre is failing.
It may have failed your personal vision of what kind of games you'd like to see, as it has with ME, but the genre has not and is not failing kids.
I think given the money spent and how the game plays, SWTOR will hit EA hard in the pocket.
Maybe, but I doubt they'll really care because they have made and will make ridiculous amounts of money on Kingdoms of Armular or whatever and Mass Effect 3... and then not care even more when the next EA sports game comes out and actually prints its own money.
I think given the money spent and how the game plays, SWTOR will hit EA hard in the pocket.
When I ran the numbers, even in the worst case scenario they broke even ~5 months after launch. And I used some really conservative values for that estimate (the game losing 30% of subscribers every single month.)
If TOR doesn't bleed subs like that (past the first month, where you expect to lose ~60% of your initial buyers) then it's actually going to be solidly profitable for EA depending on how many employees they've kept on the game.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Because today's games are linear non innovative and the game makes the community, and it should have been the other way around. It was wow that appealed at the masses, and almost every other big title had to appeal on the masses too to gain a piece of the pie. But this game, and this kind of games are created to make you do repetitve things at endgame without a real effect on the gameworld. If they had features like daoc did with faction vs faction and things that generally changed the gameworld depending on who won e.t.c, it would be different. The communities would be overall different. So, endgame should be the second phase of the game, when the game really begins, like in daoc, or other similar games. I've said it again, player driven worlds, or partially driven at least. Swotr for example could have been a blast if there was actually something to do in endgame other than repetitive warzones, or raids. Putting more of that into the game won't make it better. Personally i do not like arenas and all these stuff in mmos, i like the whole game to be an arena, or at least a big part of it. No instanced crap that just give you items which you wear to go do more instanced crap. This is not what true mmorpgs were about. All these go mainly for pvp games. And if someone doesn't like pvp, then for the pve'ers well i guess something close to eq and eq2 is the deal. But most complaints are from pvp'ers for the reasons i described.
My opinion this modern day trend of similar MMO started from the failures of EQ1 & AC1....
People may not want to admit that, but from the ashes of both EQ1 and AC1, spawned MMOs which are known for this concept of "WoW Like" MMO.
Both Everquest 2 and LOTRO (aka AC3) are both what we call "WoW Clones" today, even though they are built off of an older model than WoW.
Both these two MMO (EQ1 & AC1), are responsible for today's MMO. Wether you want to admit this or not. There is no WoW clones. Most spin off of these two games have been shown to be failures in public eyes. (from AC2 to EQ2 and beyond)!
World of Warcraft was one of the few exceptions of success from EQ1 & AC1 decedents of failure.
....is due to the fact that all the industry experts seem to hang out in forums.
*Sarcasm detector alarm sounding*
Not intended as hate or troll, here's my paraphrased version... If you people think that the design of a holy grail game is so obvious, go build one.
My response... Yeah, if only it was so easy.
To make money on a large budget game it has to be mainstream (easy and casual friendly). If it's mainstream those who want depth and difficulty aren't happy.
To make profit on a niche game with depth and difficulty it has to be low budget. If it's niche, then people who want mainstream aren't happy. If it's low budget then people who want AAA polish aren't happy.
To run on common consumer computer hardware it has to be low-poly and highly optimized. If it's low-poly then people who want "immersive" [sic] graphics aren't happy.
So the holy grail game is big budget, is mainstream, is easy to play, has depth and difficulty, has AAA polish, runs on any hardware, and has graphics that look and feel like a CG movie. ... and we haven't even touched on sandbox vs. themepark.
To that I say good-luck.
I don't need to be an engineer working for Toyota to understand cars. Or to know a sub-standard car from a good one.
So as a consumer, when I buy a car, I expect certain features to be present. Lets take side-impact air bags. Consumer demand, effecting the market, has caused Toyota to put them in the models I'm interested in since 2007 as STANDARD EQUIPMENT. Same goes with anti-lock brakes and electronic stability controls.
So, if you, as an auto manufacturor, after spending a BILLION DOLLARS to develop a new model, neglects to put these safety features in... Oh well, I'm not going to buy the car and tell my friends to not buy the care because it's missing a key safety featuers.
Now, if you want to troll me and tell me it's not fair to have my opinion because Vanilla Toyota didn't have side impact bags, stability controls or anti-lock brakes in 2004 so I shouldn't expect these features and anyone who complains about a car that doesn't have these important safety feautures is a troll... And they can just design their own car...
I'm going to laugh at you., Possibly mock you.
But, more importantly, I'm going to point out that if auto companies can learn to 'keep up with the auto Joneses,' so can FRIGGIN BIOWARE which is what you post is about... So, no more LEAVE BRITTANY ALONE posts... I don't care about Vanilla WoW in 2004... What I care is in 2011 SWTOR is leaving off 'standard features" that are normal, expected features and should be part and parcel of ANY AAA MMO.
Companies are in this business because it's a great way to make a quick profit.
Advertising is key when you're releasing a game (not just an MMO), if you make a trailer that looks amazing, guess what? People are going to buy your game. That's is our biggest weakness as humans, we see something that looks good, and we want it at any cost.
Say you see a hot chick in a bar and you want to tap dat ass, how do you know she hasn't got aids? Exactly, you don't, and the only way you're gonna know is if you risk your health (money in gaming terms) to try it and see what it's like.
I used to do that all the time (with MMOs), and every single one I did it with was a big regret, because all of them sucked ass.
I've now learnt the error of my ways, SWTOR looked good, but was it good? Nope. I didn't try it out, I wait for the reviews and everyone said it sucked. Free money for me!
TERA looked good, didn't get into beta, people say it sucks, I'm not getting it, free money for me.
Titan.. on the other hand.. that's a game I just GOT to play for myself, simply because of the reputation of the company who is making it.
Even if it fails, I don't care, cause it's Blizzard.. who once had the BEST damn MMO of all time, many, many years ago...
If you imagine the publishers and development studios at places like Blizzard/Activision, EA/Bioware, CCP, Trion, Turbine, Funcom, etc. actually reading threads like this and laughing their asses off as their financial balance sheets just keep showing positive numbers.
Only thing about this genre failing is the community.
The genre is bigger, has more games, has more players, and makes more money today than it ever has in the short history of the MMORPG genre existing.
Failing...
Just because you don't like it or dislike game X or Y doesn't mean the genre is failing.
It may have failed your personal vision of what kind of games you'd like to see, as it has with ME, but the genre has not and is not failing kids.
Logic dictates you didnt read my post and are repsonding to the title. It's a tongue in cheek jab at the countless "experts" that tell us what's wrong with the industry, when in actual fact, as you point out, the industry is booming.
If you imagine the publishers and development studios at places like Blizzard/Activision, EA/Bioware, CCP, Trion, Turbine, Funcom, etc. actually reading threads like this and laughing their asses off as their financial balance sheets just keep showing positive numbers.
Only thing about this genre failing is the community.
The genre is bigger, has more games, has more players, and makes more money today than it ever has in the short history of the MMORPG genre existing.
Failing...
Just because you don't like it or dislike game X or Y doesn't mean the genre is failing.
It may have failed your personal vision of what kind of games you'd like to see, as it has with ME, but the genre has not and is not failing kids.
Logic dictates you didnt read my post and are repsonding to the title. It's a tongue in cheek jab at the countless "experts" that tell us what's wrong with the industry, when in actual fact, as you point out, the industry is booming.
Yeah, but ... isn't it odd these "experts" were mostly right these last 6 years too ? I mean, ex EA Brown said their end goal was a market potential of 12.000.000 players and the goal was to make a monthly "100 million dollars" because WOW had those figures ...
I quote:
""If we do this successfully, we can capture the potential 12 million users, we all know that MMO players and gaming market rapidly growing in the West, and has formed a large group, we have seen the opportunity and the market can attract at least 12 million people."
Now I ask you: WHO were the most realistic?, The posters saying (after Beta) "No way SW TOR will get to that because of XXXX (fill in)."
Or the EA financial director who had a salary of multi million dollars and apparently has no clue ?
And no, the subscription based market is not booming, it is struggling.
Yes very clever of you... now link the section where i stated that the subscription model is booming.
Yeah, expecting 12m subs is a bit naive. That said since when has realism won you financial backing?
The sadest part of this is some of you actually do believe that no effort is ever made by the development teams ~ sod it, that'll do they'll never notice ~. Any large scale, complex and expensive project is an undertaking in itself, let alone bringing it all together on budget and on schedule. You muppets talk as if the designers didn't even think about feature B or X, I assure you they most probably did but these things stayed on the story board or ended up on the cutting room floor - for now.
Oh but hang on! Aren't ALL mmorpgs "finished" the second they go gold?
Sorry Boiware, Cryptic etc Blizzard had 8 years, EvE online 9 years.... You get 2 months!
I'm pretty sure no mmo or very few other than WoW achieved what investors aimed for. Turbine tried the F2P model with D&D online and it worked so others went down the same path otherwise those games were probably shut down by now.
What I mean is that they are having proft but nowhere near as market potential. And it's too early to say SWTOR is succesful. If you like it that's alright but I think people bashing it back and forth (with reason in my opinion) is making you mad.
Comments
Well said.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
So i guess if you taste a dish in a restaurant and its not salty enough for you, you don't ask for salt.
Good to know.
I have no idea how you guys can think this. You don't have to be an expert if you've been playing these games for a long time to know what has worked or failed in these games. If we're talking about programming or engines then I see the point. If we're talking about mechanics, content, customization, etc. I really don't.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
I guess it depends on whether he has a degree from a culinary institute as to whether he can request the additional salt or not. Least according to some.
>_>
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
The thing is, how business works, is that numbers are your biggest critic. I'm all for it to share your feedback, it's actually a pretty useful thing for developers to better the game. However, if you really want to create an impact, vote with your wallet. For example, if SWTOR's use of the WoW MMO template was a bad idea, then numbers should reflect that. However, it seems it isn't a bad idea economically, therein lies the problem.
Actually I think the problem lies in that MMOs being our hobby, we depend on companies that are on a very expensive business. We cannot simply create our own game to our liking like in many other hobbies, where you can personalize your experience fully. I wish developing MMOs wasn't as expensive, then we could see many more small or indie companies get themselves wet with a good amount of quality in their games.
For example, I'm somewhat confident that if a triple AAA sandbox MMO was to be released, with all the fancy bug-free quality of top notch themepark MMOs, it would prove to be successful. But it's too big of a risk for a big company, too big of a dream for a small one.
There's a team currently doing just that, it's called GW2. Don't worry it will be out soon, it has community, mmo support without the need to force you to do dungeons, it's eliminated the time honored mistakes of gear treadmill, global cooldown, mob tagging just so it won't feel like a single player game with multiplayer aspects. Just thought you should know.
The bothersom thing is the handful, comparativley speaking, that actually think they speak for the majority of the mmo gaming community, which they most certainly do not.
Every time there is a mmo launch it's the same old story
"The genre is dying"
"Why mmo's are dying"
"This is what's wrong with the industry"
"Game X should have been...."
"The sky does falleth"
Many of these people are completey ignorant to the reality of actually making an MMORPG from start to finish, launching and then expanding on a product that is, by design, supposed to last and improve over a number of years. It's incredibly easy to be a critic.
So they exaggerate? So what? Who doesn't around here? Who doesn't refer to issues from their own viewpoint? Everyone embellishes on their points to make them more emotional and probably because it is something they are passionate about. From the haters to the fanboys to those with more reasonable views on matters. Only difference is how far they take it and how emotional they get over the matters.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Maybe devs are chanting the motto: Make It Simple Stupid (MISS)
Its the same reason the COD craze will die soon. the same shit in different skins gets old and boring. Plus everyone that once enjoyed the particluar format will grow out of it. And then a new wave of game designs will follow. And history will repeat itself.
The end.
To use your analogy of MMO's = resturaunts;
Well unfortunately there is nowhere else to go. When you realize the food sucks and every resturaunt you go to after that cooks the same meal, the same way... then what?
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
the developers of minecraft will disagree with you
Well, personally I'd just eat at home.
Or in the case of games, "do something else".
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I think theres a problem in genral with the games industry in that some designers have way too much ego and see themselves as frustrated film directors.
thats why you get all this linear plotting and cut scenes, not just in mmos but FPS, RTS whatever
theres also an issue that the truely great designers that come up with fresh new ideas and such have a hard time putting this accross to the money men, often if you want original cool things in a game, you have to sneak them in through the back door.
this is also why a lot of the more original ideas are coming from indie games companies, they can just go do it, they are the money man.
p.s. I'm a games programmer I see this with my own eyes.
You know what's funny?
If you imagine the publishers and development studios at places like Blizzard/Activision, EA/Bioware, CCP, Trion, Turbine, Funcom, etc. actually reading threads like this and laughing their asses off as their financial balance sheets just keep showing positive numbers.
Only thing about this genre failing is the community.
The genre is bigger, has more games, has more players, and makes more money today than it ever has in the short history of the MMORPG genre existing.
Failing...
Just because you don't like it or dislike game X or Y doesn't mean the genre is failing.
It may have failed your personal vision of what kind of games you'd like to see, as it has with ME, but the genre has not and is not failing kids.
I think given the money spent and how the game plays, SWTOR will hit EA hard in the pocket.
Maybe, but I doubt they'll really care because they have made and will make ridiculous amounts of money on Kingdoms of Armular or whatever and Mass Effect 3... and then not care even more when the next EA sports game comes out and actually prints its own money.
When I ran the numbers, even in the worst case scenario they broke even ~5 months after launch. And I used some really conservative values for that estimate (the game losing 30% of subscribers every single month.)
If TOR doesn't bleed subs like that (past the first month, where you expect to lose ~60% of your initial buyers) then it's actually going to be solidly profitable for EA depending on how many employees they've kept on the game.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
My opinion this modern day trend of similar MMO started from the failures of EQ1 & AC1....People may not want to admit that, but from the ashes of both EQ1 and AC1, spawned MMOs which are known for this concept of "WoW Like" MMO.
Both Everquest 2 and LOTRO (aka AC3) are both what we call "WoW Clones" today, even though they are built off of an older model than WoW.
Both these two MMO (EQ1 & AC1), are responsible for today's MMO. Wether you want to admit this or not. There is no WoW clones. Most spin off of these two games have been shown to be failures in public eyes. (from AC2 to EQ2 and beyond)!
World of Warcraft was one of the few exceptions of success from EQ1 & AC1 decedents of failure.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
I don't need to be an engineer working for Toyota to understand cars. Or to know a sub-standard car from a good one.
So as a consumer, when I buy a car, I expect certain features to be present. Lets take side-impact air bags. Consumer demand, effecting the market, has caused Toyota to put them in the models I'm interested in since 2007 as STANDARD EQUIPMENT. Same goes with anti-lock brakes and electronic stability controls.
So, if you, as an auto manufacturor, after spending a BILLION DOLLARS to develop a new model, neglects to put these safety features in... Oh well, I'm not going to buy the car and tell my friends to not buy the care because it's missing a key safety featuers.
Now, if you want to troll me and tell me it's not fair to have my opinion because Vanilla Toyota didn't have side impact bags, stability controls or anti-lock brakes in 2004 so I shouldn't expect these features and anyone who complains about a car that doesn't have these important safety feautures is a troll... And they can just design their own car...
I'm going to laugh at you., Possibly mock you.
But, more importantly, I'm going to point out that if auto companies can learn to 'keep up with the auto Joneses,' so can FRIGGIN BIOWARE which is what you post is about... So, no more LEAVE BRITTANY ALONE posts... I don't care about Vanilla WoW in 2004... What I care is in 2011 SWTOR is leaving off 'standard features" that are normal, expected features and should be part and parcel of ANY AAA MMO.
Companies are in this business because it's a great way to make a quick profit.
Advertising is key when you're releasing a game (not just an MMO), if you make a trailer that looks amazing, guess what? People are going to buy your game. That's is our biggest weakness as humans, we see something that looks good, and we want it at any cost.
Say you see a hot chick in a bar and you want to tap dat ass, how do you know she hasn't got aids? Exactly, you don't, and the only way you're gonna know is if you risk your health (money in gaming terms) to try it and see what it's like.
I used to do that all the time (with MMOs), and every single one I did it with was a big regret, because all of them sucked ass.
I've now learnt the error of my ways, SWTOR looked good, but was it good? Nope. I didn't try it out, I wait for the reviews and everyone said it sucked. Free money for me!
TERA looked good, didn't get into beta, people say it sucks, I'm not getting it, free money for me.
Titan.. on the other hand.. that's a game I just GOT to play for myself, simply because of the reputation of the company who is making it.
Even if it fails, I don't care, cause it's Blizzard.. who once had the BEST damn MMO of all time, many, many years ago...
Logic dictates you didnt read my post and are repsonding to the title. It's a tongue in cheek jab at the countless "experts" that tell us what's wrong with the industry, when in actual fact, as you point out, the industry is booming.
OP - I like the way you think.
summed up
If you forum trolls know so bloody much, go put your money where your mouths are & be constructive.
Yes very clever of you... now link the section where i stated that the subscription model is booming.
Yeah, expecting 12m subs is a bit naive. That said since when has realism won you financial backing?
The sadest part of this is some of you actually do believe that no effort is ever made by the development teams ~ sod it, that'll do they'll never notice ~. Any large scale, complex and expensive project is an undertaking in itself, let alone bringing it all together on budget and on schedule. You muppets talk as if the designers didn't even think about feature B or X, I assure you they most probably did but these things stayed on the story board or ended up on the cutting room floor - for now.
Oh but hang on! Aren't ALL mmorpgs "finished" the second they go gold?
Sorry Boiware, Cryptic etc Blizzard had 8 years, EvE online 9 years.... You get 2 months!
I'm pretty sure no mmo or very few other than WoW achieved what investors aimed for. Turbine tried the F2P model with D&D online and it worked so others went down the same path otherwise those games were probably shut down by now.
What I mean is that they are having proft but nowhere near as market potential. And it's too early to say SWTOR is succesful. If you like it that's alright but I think people bashing it back and forth (with reason in my opinion) is making you mad.