As has already been said, CCP and WoD hold the torch for a AAA Sandbox. ArcheAge simply has too many hurdles to overcome for it to be as successful as we need it to be. "If you build it they will come" and they are the investors. There are no shortage of great game ideas, delivering on those takes genius development and high business acumen. I give that torch to CCP because even though I don't play Eve, I recognize what they've done and the game they've built. If they can repeat with WoD (assuming its a sandbox), investors will take notice.
As has already been said, CCP and WoD hold the torch for a AAA Sandbox. ArcheAge simply has too many hurdles to overcome for it to be as successful as we need it to be. "If you build it they will come" and they are the investors. There are no shortage of great game ideas, delivering on those takes genius development and high business acumen. I give that torch to CCP because even though I don't play Eve, I recognize what they've done and the game they've built. If they can repeat with WoD (assuming its a sandbox), investors will take notice.
'ArcheAge simply has too many hurdles to overcome for it to be as successful as we need it to be'
Think about that statement for a moment. To many hurdles then we need it to be? like is like saying we NEED physics to be different but there are too many hurdles in reality for it to not do as we 'need'
unless you are suggesting that 'hurdle' is the fact that its made in asia.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Let's first agree that we disagree about what a sandbox MMO entails in terms of features.
For example if you think that free for all pvp is a requirement for a sandbox MMO, then no AAA investment will make that MMO become a financial success and that will be the answer to the OP's question. Simply because not enough MMO players like FFA PVP. Most players don't want to be on guard all the time when logged in but want to be able to pick their moment for action. For them a MMO with FFA PVP is like watching a movie with the chance that someone at any moment can flick your ear.
For any other sandbox meaning I think that it is just a massive undertaking to create an AAA sandbox. Way more complex then any themepark MMO. And themepark MMO's is where the financial success has been so far, so it is a more obvious route for investors probably.
If you wanted a AAA Sandbox you should have maintained a subscription on every Sandbox that came along. Even if you were banned from it.
Ladies and Gentlemen, we have a winner (well at least that's what his mother keeps telling him)
Mother dead for 37 years.
By Dev's haven't come up for a plan for return on investment, you mean how to get paid when the customer base wont pay for the game or play.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
If you wanted a AAA Sandbox you should have maintained a subscription on every Sandbox that came along. Even if you were banned from it.
Ladies and Gentlemen, we have a winner (well at least that's what his mother keeps telling him)
When did this actually become true? Some maybe would come up with EVE Online.
I could come up with many more titles where a bunch of dedicated subbed players didnt make any difference at all even though they stayed (SWG, Vanguard, Ryzom, Fallen Earth).
A player is not an investor. The only thing you can hope for is that you will be able to access the game as long as you play. Anything beyond that is just hope. There are no guarantees. Actually they can even pull a NGE and really piss you off if you actually believed that you were supporting 'your' game. Forum sections are made for these kind of players
It is silly to put the word "sandbox" next to the word "innvoation". Sandboxes have been tried before. It is an idea OLDER than WOW.
In fact, i would say it is a tried and failed idea. The BEST sandbox has ~400k subs, which way smaller than even TOR, a themepark game everyone rants about. And that is after so many years.
I disagree with you there. Sandbox isn't a type of MMO really, more of a game design philosophy. Each sandbox is different, completely different. This is because Sandboxes rely on player interaction & player created story - each MMO has an entirely different community.
yeah thats still kinda the same as saying all themepark MMo are different because its based on how each developer makes the UI, and Visuals, and dungeons etc.
Actually, in a subscription based game that requires your subscription money every month to maintain operations, expand the game, etc.
Yes, players are investors.
The game cannot survive without the players.
Yes, your individual contribution of 15 bucks a month is rather small, especially when compared to actual business investor who may put thousands if not millions of dollars into a game.
But it's all about ROI - return on investment.
As a player, your ROI is the joy (hopefully) you get from playing the game, as well as bug fixes, content updates, expansions etc. that your subscription dollars are paying to create.
We also have a nifty game called ArcheAge and its being developed by Korean game studio, XL Games. XL is struggling to find a publisher in the West, it is also facing accusations of stealing artwork from the creators of Tera; another upcoming MMO. The chances of seeing ArcheAge available in the West are extremely low.
Kinda off-subject but just to inform the community: XLGames haven't seriously considered looking for a Western publisher yet, as far as we know actually, but saying that its struggling to find a publisher here is really wrong. Hence it has a big bugdet, so a good many companies will be motivated to take advantage to it. Moreover, they designed AA having western market in mind, they aim for this market- so the chances to release here are extremely high. Also about the stealing artwork is definitely misleading. Tera stole the artwork from a NCsoft's game, I think it was Lineage... Funny though, Jake Song - CEO of XLgames- was also the creator of Lineage...
And my 2 cents, investors and big publishers only care about money - it's just business, you can't really do anything. So since the audience isn't really big enough for a sandbox MMO, why would they make a AAA one?
Sandbox MMORPGs that are not very well-known but definitely worth a look:
Ryzom, Haven and Hearth, Xsyon, The Repopulation, UO private shards, Mortal Online, Darkfall 1 remakes (New Dawn or Rise of Agon), RPG MO, Project Gorgon, EQ: Sanctuary (custom server)
If you wanted a AAA Sandbox you should have maintained a subscription on every Sandbox that came along. Even if you were banned from it.
Ladies and Gentlemen, we have a winner (well at least that's what his mother keeps telling him)
When did this actually become true? Some maybe would come up with EVE Online.
I could come up with many more titles where a bunch of dedicated subbed players didnt make any difference at all even though they stayed (SWG, Vanguard, Ryzom, Fallen Earth).
A player is not an investor. The only thing you can hope for is that you will be able to access the game as long as you play. Anything beyond that is just hope. There are no guarantees. Actually they can even pull a NGE and really piss you off if you actually believed that you were supporting 'your' game. Forum sections are made for these kind of players
I never played Ryzom. But I did all the rest for two month. I played SWG for 3 years maintaining 5 paid accounts. I was the only player to stay logged in on the Tarquinas server 11 23, 04. That day and the following days of loss subscriptions told devs all they need to hear. Just to day I wrote a post for FE in the LFG channel.
A Player is the only true investor in games.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Or going back to single/multiplayer RPGs, MOBAs and shooters.
If this is the case, then we should be worried about the industry as a whole. GW2 looks promising though.
Why? There are plenty of good shooters to play. I just finished one called The Darkness 2 .. it is not rated that high but it was a lot of fun already.
They are the ones that makes their sandbox games unappealing to both players and investors. Not only that but they also have piss poor business sense
If I had any interest or skill at even making the most basic PC game like Minecraft or Terraria I would make one and use the cash I earned to make yet another PC game now with better funding then use those games to fund my real project. A quality sandbox MMO.
Then instead of attacking the project with the mindset that "the sky is the limit" I would be realistic of what I could achieve while still retain a quality relatively bug free product and take it from there
Players move on. A lot of MMO players now like being hand-held through their experience. Unless the sandbox MMO could be as simpy to fully learn, as Minecraft, but also as challenging as the toughest games, I don't see a AAA sandbox grabbing millions of subscribers like publishers/developers want.
If they can stick to holding 100k playerbase, they would do much better. The chances of survival for a AAA sandbox is through f2p means. Everyone's just to cautious now-a-days to jump into a monthly fee for a title they are unsure of.
If you wanted a AAA Sandbox you should have maintained a subscription on every Sandbox that came along. Even if you were banned from it.
Ladies and Gentlemen, we have a winner (well at least that's what his mother keeps telling him)
Mother dead for 37 years.
By Dev's haven't come up for a plan for return on investment, you mean how to get paid when the customer base wont pay for the game or play.
The customer base will pay for the game, the problem is that the customer base is smaller than themeparks, it's an undeniable fact, we will not see a western company make an AAA sandbox in the near future. However with a potential audience in the hundreds of thousands I believe they could be making an AA sandbox, problem is all we have had is B which do not do well and so perpetuate the vicious circle.
Personally I hope Archeage proves to be a successful AAA sandbox that provides a decent return for its investors but I am not expecting it compete with WoW numbers.
Yeah, there is no demand for sandbox MMOs. I mean, Minecraft( a 8-bit cube) MMO only has 4 million subscribers.
Not exactly an MMO, but great example of a sandbox... where players said, forget rest of this crap, I am going to play this game built on outdated technology because.. it.. is... fun!
What is stopping the creation of a triple a sandbox is sandbox fans are a niche group. Sorry its true, When a top notch game like eve is lucky to have 500 k subs , u realize sandbox games will never be made with a huge budget because they will never recoup the investment.
For all those on here whining about wanting a great sandbox , none of u actually play one. The reason themepark mmo's are so prevalant is because they can get 1-4 mil subs so much easier while a sandbox no matter how great will be lucky to get 500 k subs
If it went free 2 play to start maybe , just maybe it might get the company the money it invests back , And even then they would be lucky to get 500 k playerbase
So if people out there really want a triple a sandbox game u have to actually support them with your dollars, instead of just whining on the mmorpg forums about no good sandbox games.
What is stopping the creation of a triple a sandbox is sandbox fans are a niche group. Sorry its true, When a top notch game like eve is lucky to have 500 k subs , u realize sandbox games will never be made with a huge budget because they will never recoup the investment.
For all those on here whining about wanting a great sandbox , none of u actually play one. The reason themepark mmo's are so prevalant is because they can get 1-4 mil subs so much easier while a sandbox no matter how great will be lucky to get 500 k subs
If it went free 2 play to start maybe , just maybe it might get the company the money it invests back , And even then they would be lucky to get 500 k playerbase
So if people out there really want a triple a sandbox game u have to actually support them with your dollars, instead of just whining on the mmorpg forums about no good sandbox games.
Name all the AAA themepart MMO's with 1-4 million subscriptions(by the way, that is an odd range of subs to pic, seems like something pulled out of your nether regions)..
After doing some research, you'll realize that there are not many MMO's with over 1 million subscribers. Then, using logic and reason, you should come to the conclusion that 500k subscriptions is actually a very solid player base for a MMO, especially a P2P MMO.
Then, by using your brain, you should be able to come to the conclusion that if EVE can be profitable, while being a sci-fi game, then a high fantasy sandbox game should rake in a lot of money if done by a legitimate gaming company.
You last comment, in my opinion, is ridiculous. We should support horrendous sandbox MMO's, made by companies who lie and deceive their customers at every turn? There are millions of people out there who are waiting for a good sandbox to be created. Millions. I cant stand the 'niche' cliche about sandboxes. Top MMO's today struggle to retain more than 300k subscribers three months after launch. In my opinion, easy mode themeparks are more niche than sandboxes. At least we know what we want in a game, you guys need to be spoonfed content because you have no idea what is good for you.
That, and most of you guys who knock on sandboxes have never even played a good one. You have no ground to stand on.
Comments
As has already been said, CCP and WoD hold the torch for a AAA Sandbox. ArcheAge simply has too many hurdles to overcome for it to be as successful as we need it to be. "If you build it they will come" and they are the investors. There are no shortage of great game ideas, delivering on those takes genius development and high business acumen. I give that torch to CCP because even though I don't play Eve, I recognize what they've done and the game they've built. If they can repeat with WoD (assuming its a sandbox), investors will take notice.
'ArcheAge simply has too many hurdles to overcome for it to be as successful as we need it to be'
Think about that statement for a moment. To many hurdles then we need it to be? like is like saying we NEED physics to be different but there are too many hurdles in reality for it to not do as we 'need'
unless you are suggesting that 'hurdle' is the fact that its made in asia.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Ladies and Gentlemen, we have a winner (well at least that's what his mother keeps telling him)Let's first agree that we disagree about what a sandbox MMO entails in terms of features.
For example if you think that free for all pvp is a requirement for a sandbox MMO, then no AAA investment will make that MMO become a financial success and that will be the answer to the OP's question. Simply because not enough MMO players like FFA PVP. Most players don't want to be on guard all the time when logged in but want to be able to pick their moment for action. For them a MMO with FFA PVP is like watching a movie with the chance that someone at any moment can flick your ear.
For any other sandbox meaning I think that it is just a massive undertaking to create an AAA sandbox. Way more complex then any themepark MMO. And themepark MMO's is where the financial success has been so far, so it is a more obvious route for investors probably.
Why does he start off with all PvP related talk?
This is why People feel that "Sandbox == PvP"
whenever the subject of Sandbox MMO gets brought up.
See its the Developers doing the Demarketing themselves
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Mother dead for 37 years.
By Dev's haven't come up for a plan for return on investment, you mean how to get paid when the customer base wont pay for the game or play.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
When did this actually become true? Some maybe would come up with EVE Online.
I could come up with many more titles where a bunch of dedicated subbed players didnt make any difference at all even though they stayed (SWG, Vanguard, Ryzom, Fallen Earth).
A player is not an investor. The only thing you can hope for is that you will be able to access the game as long as you play. Anything beyond that is just hope. There are no guarantees. Actually they can even pull a NGE and really piss you off if you actually believed that you were supporting 'your' game. Forum sections are made for these kind of players
yeah thats still kinda the same as saying all themepark MMo are different because its based on how each developer makes the UI, and Visuals, and dungeons etc.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Actually, in a subscription based game that requires your subscription money every month to maintain operations, expand the game, etc.
Yes, players are investors.
The game cannot survive without the players.
Yes, your individual contribution of 15 bucks a month is rather small, especially when compared to actual business investor who may put thousands if not millions of dollars into a game.
But it's all about ROI - return on investment.
As a player, your ROI is the joy (hopefully) you get from playing the game, as well as bug fixes, content updates, expansions etc. that your subscription dollars are paying to create.
No, they are not.
You misunderstand the terms: customer - investor and investment - expense.
Kinda off-subject but just to inform the community: XLGames haven't seriously considered looking for a Western publisher yet, as far as we know actually, but saying that its struggling to find a publisher here is really wrong. Hence it has a big bugdet, so a good many companies will be motivated to take advantage to it. Moreover, they designed AA having western market in mind, they aim for this market- so the chances to release here are extremely high. Also about the stealing artwork is definitely misleading. Tera stole the artwork from a NCsoft's game, I think it was Lineage... Funny though, Jake Song - CEO of XLgames- was also the creator of Lineage...
And my 2 cents, investors and big publishers only care about money - it's just business, you can't really do anything. So since the audience isn't really big enough for a sandbox MMO, why would they make a AAA one?
Ryzom, Haven and Hearth, Xsyon, The Repopulation, UO private shards, Mortal Online, Darkfall 1 remakes (New Dawn or Rise of Agon), RPG MO, Project Gorgon, EQ: Sanctuary (custom server)
I never played Ryzom. But I did all the rest for two month. I played SWG for 3 years maintaining 5 paid accounts. I was the only player to stay logged in on the Tarquinas server 11 23, 04. That day and the following days of loss subscriptions told devs all they need to hear. Just to day I wrote a post for FE in the LFG channel.
A Player is the only true investor in games.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Players are spending money, there are no returns - they are not investing...
If you generalize the term "investor" in a natural manner, it does actually make sense that you do get returns, but not economical ones.
Why? There are plenty of good shooters to play. I just finished one called The Darkness 2 .. it is not rated that high but it was a lot of fun already.
There are plenty of good games to play.
It's the indie developers fault
They are the ones that makes their sandbox games unappealing to both players and investors. Not only that but they also have piss poor business sense
If I had any interest or skill at even making the most basic PC game like Minecraft or Terraria I would make one and use the cash I earned to make yet another PC game now with better funding then use those games to fund my real project. A quality sandbox MMO.
Then instead of attacking the project with the mindset that "the sky is the limit" I would be realistic of what I could achieve while still retain a quality relatively bug free product and take it from there
Players move on. A lot of MMO players now like being hand-held through their experience. Unless the sandbox MMO could be as simpy to fully learn, as Minecraft, but also as challenging as the toughest games, I don't see a AAA sandbox grabbing millions of subscribers like publishers/developers want.
If they can stick to holding 100k playerbase, they would do much better. The chances of survival for a AAA sandbox is through f2p means. Everyone's just to cautious now-a-days to jump into a monthly fee for a title they are unsure of.
Played - M59, EQOA, EQ, EQ2, PS, SWG[Favorite], DAoC, UO, RS, MXO, CoH/CoV, TR, FFXI, FoM, WoW, Eve, Rift, SWTOR, TSW.
Playing - PS2, AoW, GW2
I'll tell you who is stopping development of a AAA sandbox title...
that damn Sasquatch.
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
I blame anyone who says "just make the game play like X". We all know who X is too! Damn you X!
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
Ladies and Gentlemen, we have a winner (well at least that's what his mother keeps telling him)
Mother dead for 37 years.
By Dev's haven't come up for a plan for return on investment, you mean how to get paid when the customer base wont pay for the game or play.
The customer base will pay for the game, the problem is that the customer base is smaller than themeparks, it's an undeniable fact, we will not see a western company make an AAA sandbox in the near future. However with a potential audience in the hundreds of thousands I believe they could be making an AA sandbox, problem is all we have had is B which do not do well and so perpetuate the vicious circle. Personally I hope Archeage proves to be a successful AAA sandbox that provides a decent return for its investors but I am not expecting it compete with WoW numbers.Yeah, there is no demand for sandbox MMOs. I mean, Minecraft( a 8-bit cube) MMO only has 4 million subscribers.
Not exactly an MMO, but great example of a sandbox... where players said, forget rest of this crap, I am going to play this game built on outdated technology because.. it.. is... fun!
What is stopping the creation of a triple a sandbox is sandbox fans are a niche group. Sorry its true, When a top notch game like eve is lucky to have 500 k subs , u realize sandbox games will never be made with a huge budget because they will never recoup the investment.
For all those on here whining about wanting a great sandbox , none of u actually play one. The reason themepark mmo's are so prevalant is because they can get 1-4 mil subs so much easier while a sandbox no matter how great will be lucky to get 500 k subs
If it went free 2 play to start maybe , just maybe it might get the company the money it invests back , And even then they would be lucky to get 500 k playerbase
So if people out there really want a triple a sandbox game u have to actually support them with your dollars, instead of just whining on the mmorpg forums about no good sandbox games.
Name all the AAA themepart MMO's with 1-4 million subscriptions(by the way, that is an odd range of subs to pic, seems like something pulled out of your nether regions)..
After doing some research, you'll realize that there are not many MMO's with over 1 million subscribers. Then, using logic and reason, you should come to the conclusion that 500k subscriptions is actually a very solid player base for a MMO, especially a P2P MMO.
Then, by using your brain, you should be able to come to the conclusion that if EVE can be profitable, while being a sci-fi game, then a high fantasy sandbox game should rake in a lot of money if done by a legitimate gaming company.
You last comment, in my opinion, is ridiculous. We should support horrendous sandbox MMO's, made by companies who lie and deceive their customers at every turn? There are millions of people out there who are waiting for a good sandbox to be created. Millions. I cant stand the 'niche' cliche about sandboxes. Top MMO's today struggle to retain more than 300k subscribers three months after launch. In my opinion, easy mode themeparks are more niche than sandboxes. At least we know what we want in a game, you guys need to be spoonfed content because you have no idea what is good for you.
That, and most of you guys who knock on sandboxes have never even played a good one. You have no ground to stand on.
When you have a MMO sandbox that allows players to create content it's tough to sell digital store items to those players.
We might never see another good american made sandbox again. the asians are currently the only folks willing to take a whack at it.