Keep in mind that the regeneration boon cannot be stacked in effectiveness, only in duration.
The whole point in the game is damage avoidance. If you rely on healing, you have already lost.
Note that regen is based on total healing effectiveness, and Guardians also have access to an exclusive boon known as Rejuvenation, which can stack on top of Regeneration.
Keep in mind that the regeneration boon cannot be stacked in effectiveness, only in duration.
The whole point in the game is damage avoidance. If you rely on healing, you have already lost.
Note that regen is based on total healing effectiveness, and Guardians also have access to an exclusive boon known as Rejuvenation, which can stack on top of Regeneration.
Which is still a fairly weak heal-over-time, and as such not suited to keep up a player who doesn't use his abilities to avoid damage.
Another troll thread dropped by someone who can't let go of the Trinity. I don't think ANet intended to remove "a" Trinity, but instead the one most people are familiar with and reliant on, the one that is viable but doesn't fit the dynamic nature of GW2. There's no "HOLY" Trinity, ie: the one people are enamored with after WoW clones. People need to give up this line of thinking, as well as "The game is going to suck because GW1 sucked", "The game is Asian", and "The DE's are just like the timed events in Rift."
It's embarrassing.
Very true
The other thing these players aren't talking about, is how easy it will be to build and maintain a group. In my exp, finding a healer or tank is always tough, and takes up a lot of time.
And we all know what happens when the healer dies, or if the tank dies too many times, the group usually disbands, and your back to square one.
This beautifull system rids us all of that, we are free to play!!
Keep in mind that the regeneration boon cannot be stacked in effectiveness, only in duration.
The whole point in the game is damage avoidance. If you rely on healing, you have already lost.
Note that regen is based on total healing effectiveness, and Guardians also have access to an exclusive boon known as Rejuvenation, which can stack on top of Regeneration.
Which is still a fairly weak heal-over-time, and as such not suited to keep up a player who doesn't use his abilities to avoid damage.
And Guardians are the lower health profession. Bigger heals and more defense are just to compensate it
Its just a hype builder imo, the trinity is still in guild wars 2, its just not as set in stone, as it is in most mmo's. There just is no pre-determined class thats say best at tanking, but I am pretty sure a certan class will tank better than the rest, or one will heal better than the rest. A mmo can't really work if you totally remove the trinity. The rules in gw2 are just alot more.. lax on it.
When peopls learn how to play, they will start to switch constantly tanking and all will drop support heals and AoEs. And yes, there is no trinity, it should be called multitasking
I'm not sure what videos you're watching, but most of the ones I've seen don't really show much of anything on this subject. There's no clear tanks, or healers in any of the videos I've seen. I've never seen anyone healbotting (I've barely even seen people tossing out heals in most of the videos of seen), While there is usually some heavily armored warrior on the frontlines, that doesn't always mean they are the ones taking all the damage.
I will say this. If you wish to just pass it off as hype, so be it. However, there is a very real reason this game is said to not have a 'trinity'. There are no designated roles in that regards, and you will find that the better players will be the ones that not only accept this, but learn to take advantage of this mechanic sooner than the rest.
I've seen skilled players 'tank' as an elementalist (just pop into earth attunement, or become a tornado), next thing you know they are group healing (switched to water attunement for AoE / slows as well as area heals), followed shortly by them raining down massive damage on the battlefield. Hell, I've even see guardians do this, as well as mesmers, rangers, and necros. The game is just not built off of the same group mechanics that most players are now spoon-fed in this genre.
As some of the reviews have even said, this is just one of those things where you either get it, or you will only ever believe it once you're playing it. If you don't understand it now, even with the massive amount of info readily available on this not-yet-released game, then you will probably not understand until you have physically tried it / have had someone show you in-game how this game plays.
I'll have to try and find the link but I read one preview where 2 devs took their guest previewers through a group dungeon and used nothing but Elementalists. Just 1 class made up the whole group and they successfully completed the dungeon. If that's not proof that there's no trinity I don't know what is.
Exactly. The trinity is pretty much dead because all the major aspects of the trinity are gone. Some may say that, well the Guardian didn't stack in High Mitigation Traits and Skills, but even if he did, you can just how the AI simply ignores him. Guardian is probably screamin... "Where's My Taunt Skill!"
Then the naysayers will say that, there are still healers, since there are skills that heal allies. But have you ever played a Holy Trinity game where a player cannot heal someone through a bosses damage, due to having only 1 or 2 heals and those being just weak HoTs. Yet still be called the healer of the group like this helpful Ranger. If there were healers in GW2, then I wouldn't needed to press "6".
Eitherway, there is plenty of evidence showing us the lack of the holy trinity but none really showing us the holy trinity in play. Would like to see a nice group tackle an Explorable mode dungeon, instead of these incompetent press facerolling through easy mode.
I'll have to try and find the link but I read one preview where 2 devs took their guest previewers through a group dungeon and used nothing but Elementalists. Just 1 class made up the whole group and they successfully completed the dungeon. If that's not proof that there's no trinity I don't know what is.
I would love to see that video. A video of skillful play. People do not dodge in most of the videos from the press beta. From the kill ten rats blog once you hit the level 15-25 zone you will have to learn to dodge the hard way or die (http://www.killtenrats.com/2012/02/27/gw2-press-beta-the-richest-pve-experience-part-2/). I believe most of the people who did the dungeons for the press beta did not have time to level upto level 30 so they were sidekicked up to do the instance and skipped that learning experience.
I also noticed the ranger was doing a bit of tanking too...haha
ROFLOL, i can see it now..
5man grous go in a dungeon. Party says, Warrior/Guardian go in and build aggro, while we then dps''... All starts to attack mob, few second after, mob starts wailing on the thief, thied cries out... Taunt him off me already, guardian/warrior says i have no taunt skill, mob goes beserk wipes the group.. Group member claims this system is sillly, others in group agree. Group disbands, with some quitting the game or start to flame on GW2 forums on why they feel the system is broken, other join in and then you start hearing this game sucks...
^this
LOL, I have the same crystal ball telling me this too
I'll have to try and find the link but I read one preview where 2 devs took their guest previewers through a group dungeon and used nothing but Elementalists. Just 1 class made up the whole group and they successfully completed the dungeon. If that's not proof that there's no trinity I don't know what is.
I would love to see that video. A video of skillful play. People do not dodge in most of the videos from the press beta. From the kill ten rats blog once you hit the level 15-25 zone you will have to learn to dodge the hard way or die (http://www.killtenrats.com/2012/02/27/gw2-press-beta-the-richest-pve-experience-part-2/). I believe most of the people who did the dungeons for the press beta did not have time to level upto level 30 so they were sidekicked up to do the instance and skipped that learning experience.
not only do they not use dodge but they also seem to only be able to find the "1" key over and over again not using a single other ability on the 2-5 keys even when unlocked. It's like they are playing a global cooldown button masher game or something.
I also noticed the ranger was doing a bit of tanking too...haha
ROFLOL, i can see it now..
5man grous go in a dungeon. Party says, Warrior/Guardian go in and build aggro, while we then dps''... All starts to attack mob, few second after, mob starts wailing on the thief, thied cries out... Taunt him off me already, guardian/warrior says i have no taunt skill, mob goes beserk wipes the group.. Group member claims this system is sillly, others in group agree. Group disbands, with some quitting the game or start to flame on GW2 forums on why they feel the system is broken, other join in and then you start hearing this game sucks...
Unlearning bad habits picked up in other games is going to be key. Nothing will be as important early in the game. Remember though that the folks in the video were probably fast tracked to that dungeon. After release, they will have to play through 30 levels worth of DE content first, content that is going to be more difficult that we've seen so far. They'll have ample opportunity to learn the survival skills necessary to beat a story mode dungeon. If, by the time they enter the Ascalon Catacombs, they haven't learned how to dodge and rez, they never will.
I think most gamers are capable of doing that. The others would find something to cry about no matter what, so I'm not all that worried.
so now when people play GW2 will have to learn how to play liking this more and more
The more important part seems to be forgetting how you played other MMOs. The learning comes naturally through playing the starter zones.
and seen like you are forgetting on how most of peeps don't read, and play like they did in wow, so anything diferent from it is a bane and crys about the "lame" gameplay is because its diferent from wow.
also take note most of people in MMO's don't kow how to play.
Don't understand where this no trinity business is coming from. In all the videos I've seen, there has been 1 or 2 people dropping down heals, that heal other party, and 1 or 2 guys taking 85% of the damage and agro. Hows that not a trinity? You still have people designated healing, and people designated tanking. Am I missing something here?
Of course there are some who tank damage and heal that damage, but you won't survive that long, because no heal from someone else is more powerful than your self-heal.
The point is that you'll constantly switching who is tanking and who is supporting, read: you switch roles. They haven't said they'd remove the trinity, but they will remove the holy trinity of healing, tanking and dps. Watch the 5 part video of a dungeon run on curse network. The one who's trying to tank doesn't really tank at all.
At the end of the day, all that matters is that you never have to refuse to take a certain person with you to a dungeon because of the class they selected.
At the end of the day, all that matters is that you never have to refuse to take a certain person with you to a dungeon because of the class they selected.
At the end of the day, all that matters is that you never have to refuse to take a certain person with you to a dungeon because of the class they selected.
That's fantastic.
At the end of the day, people will still whine about it anyway, even if it's being done this way for their benefit.
At the end of the day, all that matters is that you never have to refuse to take a certain person with you to a dungeon because of the class they selected. That's fantastic.
At the end of the day, people will still whine about it anyway, even if it's being done this way for their benefit.
People will whine about everything and everyone. I read that your friend list is accountbased - I love this! I just hope the ignore list will be the same so you can ignore the people you really don't wanna interact with ^^
At the end of the day, all that matters is that you never have to refuse to take a certain person with you to a dungeon because of the class they selected.
That's fantastic.
At the end of the day, people will still whine about it anyway, even if it's being done this way for their benefit.
People will whine about everything and everyone. I read that your friend list is accountbased -I love this! I just hope the ignore list will be the same so you can ignore the people you really don't wanna interact with ^^
Yeah I like that idea too. WoW's setup was stupid, you had to ignore the same DB's on every character.
Didn't read the whole topic but this game brings new stuff to the table that we yet have to discover and learn. Yes you can try to assign a dedicated tank and healer and it might even pay off, but there will be other ways too.
Give it a few months to see what the potential really is. We will all play in a way we are used to, give us time to adapt.
In Guild Wars 2 , If you play like a tank, not avoiding any of the attacks of the Mob and trying to soak up every attack and you blame your team for not healing, then you are in the wrong game.
Guild Wars 2 tanks : those who attacks close range, and avoids enemy attacks with Dodge, those who buffs teammates with defense buffs, those that controls the mobs.
Guild Wars 2 DPS : everyone one that attacks and controls the mobs
Guild Wars 2 Healers : Your Self Healing skill, plus any support your team can throw your way when you make one or two mistakes, attacking the mobs and controling the mob.
The enemy will attack you regardless if you are an Elementalist, engineer, warrior, Guardian, its all about avoiding their attacks, and distract the enemy mob. If you watched those press videos, you will see alot of players just standing around, trying to use their skills by pressing 1 , they are playing with the wrong mentality. Then you watch a team of players dodging, using 2, 3, 4 when situations asks for them, then you are playing Guild Wars 2.
If you play with coordination with your teammates, the dungeons should be a breeze, if you don't then its gonna be an difficult journey. Its all in the ways on how you play.
Atleast thats my understanding of how Guild Wars 2 combat plays, through the stickie notes posted at the top of the forum.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
watch the dungeon footage and behold the fate of the guardian who says "ok i'ma tank".
Heh... I know the one you're talking about... that was funny. Someday he'll learn one hopes.
Instead of there being tanks/healers/dps roles, what you have is a system where the damage, support and control elements of combat have been moved to the weapons and skills instead of the players. As such, you don't equip to become a healer, a supporter, a controller... you equip some skills that have the various elements associated with them. When in combat, it's up to you to decide when to use skills that control the enemy, support your allies, etc. Now, you can choose more skills that have specific elements on them, say more control skills, but as a whole you cannot specifically fill a role as an individual.
Most skills actually cover multiple facets of combat, delivering damage while controlling, controlling while buffing allies, all three... so even there the lines are blurred at an individual level. It's all about situational awareness. Mobs running rampant, slow them down. Mobs in control, burn them. Allies need help, use skills that will help support them with buffs, regen, etc.
So forget about having a role. Instead, look at your skills and how each one contributes to the fight. Use your traits to enhance the different facets for your skills to give you greater versatility.
Comments
Note that regen is based on total healing effectiveness, and Guardians also have access to an exclusive boon known as Rejuvenation, which can stack on top of Regeneration.
Which is still a fairly weak heal-over-time, and as such not suited to keep up a player who doesn't use his abilities to avoid damage.
Very true
The other thing these players aren't talking about, is how easy it will be to build and maintain a group. In my exp, finding a healer or tank is always tough, and takes up a lot of time.
And we all know what happens when the healer dies, or if the tank dies too many times, the group usually disbands, and your back to square one.
This beautifull system rids us all of that, we are free to play!!
And Guardians are the lower health profession. Bigger heals and more defense are just to compensate it
When peopls learn how to play, they will start to switch constantly tanking and all will drop support heals and AoEs. And yes, there is no trinity, it should be called multitasking
....Because there isn't one?
I'm not sure what videos you're watching, but most of the ones I've seen don't really show much of anything on this subject. There's no clear tanks, or healers in any of the videos I've seen. I've never seen anyone healbotting (I've barely even seen people tossing out heals in most of the videos of seen), While there is usually some heavily armored warrior on the frontlines, that doesn't always mean they are the ones taking all the damage.
I will say this. If you wish to just pass it off as hype, so be it. However, there is a very real reason this game is said to not have a 'trinity'. There are no designated roles in that regards, and you will find that the better players will be the ones that not only accept this, but learn to take advantage of this mechanic sooner than the rest.
I've seen skilled players 'tank' as an elementalist (just pop into earth attunement, or become a tornado), next thing you know they are group healing (switched to water attunement for AoE / slows as well as area heals), followed shortly by them raining down massive damage on the battlefield. Hell, I've even see guardians do this, as well as mesmers, rangers, and necros. The game is just not built off of the same group mechanics that most players are now spoon-fed in this genre.
As some of the reviews have even said, this is just one of those things where you either get it, or you will only ever believe it once you're playing it. If you don't understand it now, even with the massive amount of info readily available on this not-yet-released game, then you will probably not understand until you have physically tried it / have had someone show you in-game how this game plays.
I'll have to try and find the link but I read one preview where 2 devs took their guest previewers through a group dungeon and used nothing but Elementalists. Just 1 class made up the whole group and they successfully completed the dungeon. If that's not proof that there's no trinity I don't know what is.
Exactly. The trinity is pretty much dead because all the major aspects of the trinity are gone. Some may say that, well the Guardian didn't stack in High Mitigation Traits and Skills, but even if he did, you can just how the AI simply ignores him. Guardian is probably screamin... "Where's My Taunt Skill!"
Aggro Fail
Then the naysayers will say that, there are still healers, since there are skills that heal allies. But have you ever played a Holy Trinity game where a player cannot heal someone through a bosses damage, due to having only 1 or 2 heals and those being just weak HoTs. Yet still be called the healer of the group like this helpful Ranger. If there were healers in GW2, then I wouldn't needed to press "6".
Eitherway, there is plenty of evidence showing us the lack of the holy trinity but none really showing us the holy trinity in play. Would like to see a nice group tackle an Explorable mode dungeon, instead of these incompetent press facerolling through easy mode.
I would love to see that video. A video of skillful play. People do not dodge in most of the videos from the press beta. From the kill ten rats blog once you hit the level 15-25 zone you will have to learn to dodge the hard way or die (http://www.killtenrats.com/2012/02/27/gw2-press-beta-the-richest-pve-experience-part-2/). I believe most of the people who did the dungeons for the press beta did not have time to level upto level 30 so they were sidekicked up to do the instance and skipped that learning experience.
^this
LOL, I have the same crystal ball telling me this too
not only do they not use dodge but they also seem to only be able to find the "1" key over and over again not using a single other ability on the 2-5 keys even when unlocked. It's like they are playing a global cooldown button masher game or something.
Unlearning bad habits picked up in other games is going to be key. Nothing will be as important early in the game. Remember though that the folks in the video were probably fast tracked to that dungeon. After release, they will have to play through 30 levels worth of DE content first, content that is going to be more difficult that we've seen so far. They'll have ample opportunity to learn the survival skills necessary to beat a story mode dungeon. If, by the time they enter the Ascalon Catacombs, they haven't learned how to dodge and rez, they never will.
I think most gamers are capable of doing that. The others would find something to cry about no matter what, so I'm not all that worried.
so now when people play GW2 will have to learn how to play
liking this more and more 
The more important part seems to be forgetting how you played other MMOs. The learning comes naturally through playing the starter zones.
L2GW2 xD
and seen like you are forgetting on how most of peeps don't read, and play like they did in wow, so anything diferent from it is a bane and crys about the "lame" gameplay is because its diferent from wow.
also take note most of people in MMO's don't kow how to play.
Of course there are some who tank damage and heal that damage, but you won't survive that long, because no heal from someone else is more powerful than your self-heal.
The point is that you'll constantly switching who is tanking and who is supporting, read: you switch roles. They haven't said they'd remove the trinity, but they will remove the holy trinity of healing, tanking and dps. Watch the 5 part video of a dungeon run on curse network. The one who's trying to tank doesn't really tank at all.
At the end of the day, all that matters is that you never have to refuse to take a certain person with you to a dungeon because of the class they selected.
That's fantastic.
This is the meaning behind "no trinity"
At the end of the day, people will still whine about it anyway, even if it's being done this way for their benefit.
At the end of the day, people will still whine about it anyway, even if it's being done this way for their benefit.
People will whine about everything and everyone. I read that your friend list is accountbased - I love this! I just hope the ignore list will be the same so you can ignore the people you really don't wanna interact with ^^Yeah I like that idea too. WoW's setup was stupid, you had to ignore the same DB's on every character.
Didn't read the whole topic but this game brings new stuff to the table that we yet have to discover and learn. Yes you can try to assign a dedicated tank and healer and it might even pay off, but there will be other ways too.
Give it a few months to see what the potential really is. We will all play in a way we are used to, give us time to adapt.
Eaglix
In Guild Wars 2 , If you play like a tank, not avoiding any of the attacks of the Mob and trying to soak up every attack and you blame your team for not healing, then you are in the wrong game.
Guild Wars 2 tanks : those who attacks close range, and avoids enemy attacks with Dodge, those who buffs teammates with defense buffs, those that controls the mobs.
Guild Wars 2 DPS : everyone one that attacks and controls the mobs
Guild Wars 2 Healers : Your Self Healing skill, plus any support your team can throw your way when you make one or two mistakes, attacking the mobs and controling the mob.
The enemy will attack you regardless if you are an Elementalist, engineer, warrior, Guardian, its all about avoiding their attacks, and distract the enemy mob. If you watched those press videos, you will see alot of players just standing around, trying to use their skills by pressing 1 , they are playing with the wrong mentality. Then you watch a team of players dodging, using 2, 3, 4 when situations asks for them, then you are playing Guild Wars 2.
If you play with coordination with your teammates, the dungeons should be a breeze, if you don't then its gonna be an difficult journey. Its all in the ways on how you play.
Atleast thats my understanding of how Guild Wars 2 combat plays, through the stickie notes posted at the top of the forum.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
Heh... I know the one you're talking about... that was funny. Someday he'll learn one hopes.
Instead of there being tanks/healers/dps roles, what you have is a system where the damage, support and control elements of combat have been moved to the weapons and skills instead of the players. As such, you don't equip to become a healer, a supporter, a controller... you equip some skills that have the various elements associated with them. When in combat, it's up to you to decide when to use skills that control the enemy, support your allies, etc. Now, you can choose more skills that have specific elements on them, say more control skills, but as a whole you cannot specifically fill a role as an individual.
Most skills actually cover multiple facets of combat, delivering damage while controlling, controlling while buffing allies, all three... so even there the lines are blurred at an individual level. It's all about situational awareness. Mobs running rampant, slow them down. Mobs in control, burn them. Allies need help, use skills that will help support them with buffs, regen, etc.
So forget about having a role. Instead, look at your skills and how each one contributes to the fight. Use your traits to enhance the different facets for your skills to give you greater versatility.
Oderint, dum metuant.