In reply to a post earlier, Guild Wars 2 will have the best of both worlds. Competitive e-sport arenas that makes everyone wear the same gear and WvWvW open-world PVP (which is a large scale arena with limited players that can enter) In fact the open-world pvp in guild wars is competitive as well as each server is ranked on a ladder just like teams in the e-sport arena mode. So even casual players get that competitive edge and wants to help bump their server up the ladder by going for certain objectives.
Also balance is in the open-world to as every level 80 item is the same regardless what difficulty dungeon you get it from or open-world boss that drops. Gear is cosmetic only at an equal level so skill is the only factor and balancing out skills in a game like this. Of course it will take some time before everyone is max level to balance the gear out in the server arenas.
I think Guild Wars 2 will make PvP in this genre bearable to everyone and I think more should take note of this especially that they should remove the whole gear factor...this makes it easier to balance the game's class skills if everyone is the same.
As a PvE player almost exclusively I was wondering what other PvE players find to be the more tolerable form of PvP. I definitely feel that PvP with a larger purpose would appeal more to the PvE player rather than arenas and e sport PvP.
If what I suspect is true, why do developers continue to focus so much on E Sport/Arena style PvP when they could possible grab a more significant piece of the pie with more focus on large scale PvP?
I could even so myself subing to a Shadowbane type game if there was a large common goal to work towards rather than killing each other over and over for nothing. Do you think GW2 would fill this Shawdowbane type void?
Why would the developers need the PvE players to go PvP?
It is very simple. PvE content appeals to PvE players. E sports/arena obvious attracts enough PvP players. They both have what they want to play.
Shifting PvE players to PvP does NOT get you more customers.
I am guessing because since WoW..most of the playerbase is from console gaming where stat boards and PvP competition is high and players want to be #1.
It has nothing to do with console gamers. Its the FPS crowd you're thinking of. FPS' exist, and are widely popular on both PC and consoles.
I dont know where this whole consoles vs PC argument came from.
I agree. Goatgod you bring up that console gamers-thing way too often and it is a crude stereotype and all too obvious strawman. There is no "console rabble", "the PC-gaming master race" or "the MMORPG elite" for that matter. Its all in your head, man. We're all just gamers.
I GM'ed pen & paper rpgs before I turned to MMORPGs. I dabbled in MTG too. Only "dabbled" because sadly it didn't caught on with my friends. And yes, I did try some of the old MMORPGs and none of them felt they were good. As a matter of fact I still loath the first MMO I ever played (Lineage 2). I play any game no matter the platform (although I prefer the X360 controller over the PS3 one) as long as they're good. There's probably no genre of games that I don't like, but old-school MMOs... *shudder* just too many bad memories.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
In reply to a post earlier, Guild Wars 2 will have the best of both worlds. Competitive e-sport arenas that makes everyone wear the same gear and WvWvW open-world PVP (which is a large scale arena with limited players that can enter) In fact the open-world pvp in guild wars is competitive as well as each server is ranked on a ladder just like teams in the e-sport arena mode. So even casual players get that competitive edge and wants to help bump their server up the ladder by going for certain objectives.
Also balance is in the open-world to as every level 80 item is the same regardless what difficulty dungeon you get it from or open-world boss that drops. Gear is cosmetic only at an equal level so skill is the only factor and balancing out skills in a game like this. Of course it will take some time before everyone is max level to balance the gear out in the server arenas.
I think Guild Wars 2 will make PvP in this genre bearable to everyone and I think more should take note of this especially that they should remove the whole gear factor...this makes it easier to balance the game's class skills if everyone is the same.
Exactly. Small scale competitive PvP and large scale 3 faction warfare. Who says a game can't have both and with gear not being a factor... I see GW2 for being the epitome of MMORPGs for most player. Not all, brcause you simply can't please everyone. Whether PvE'ers will dabble in it has yet to be seen, but it seems to provide an environment that is the least threatening for PvE'ers to dip their toes in.
As a PvE player almost exclusively I was wondering what other PvE players find to be the more tolerable form of PvP. I definitely feel that PvP with a larger purpose would appeal more to the PvE player rather than arenas and e sport PvP.
If what I suspect is true, why do developers continue to focus so much on E Sport/Arena style PvP when they could possible grab a more significant piece of the pie with more focus on large scale PvP?
I could even so myself subing to a Shadowbane type game if there was a large common goal to work towards rather than killing each other over and over for nothing. Do you think GW2 would fill this Shawdowbane type void?
I like PvP when it is part of the meta-universe. Like Eve Online. Like Fallen Earth when I played it in 2009/2010 before Icarus' collapse.
When it's just for gear-grinding, dueling or a plain-old-gank-fest for no real reason... I find it anywhere from pointless to game-breaking.
You can lose yourself in a large scale PvP and nobody will notice if you screw up. Nobody will tell you that you suck, but then again, nobody is there to pat you on the back either. Take League of Legends for example, you are one of just ten players in the field. In a sense one player represents one fifth of the teams power. You must carry your own weight for your team to succeed and if you don't you are sure to hear about it. People will notice your failures in E-sport PvP.
Then look at Eve and see if anyone gives shit about one Drake among 400 who might have shot other than the primary target. You can play, suck, enjoy the atmosphere of a large fight and still feel like you contributed when in reality your contribution was next to nothing. There's so many players involved that one player's triumphs or failures are rarely recognisable. It's easy.
Ah, if you were in a Drake, I'd expect you to screw up... (That's a joke, I don't know how carebear Drakes are now, but I when played... Let's just say there was a lot of negativity toward Drake pilots and thier bloated sheild builds.)
As a PvE player almost exclusively I was wondering what other PvE players find to be the more tolerable form of PvP. I definitely feel that PvP with a larger purpose would appeal more to the PvE player rather than arenas and e sport PvP.
If what I suspect is true, why do developers continue to focus so much on E Sport/Arena style PvP when they could possible grab a more significant piece of the pie with more focus on large scale PvP?
I could even so myself subing to a Shadowbane type game if there was a large common goal to work towards rather than killing each other over and over for nothing. Do you think GW2 would fill this Shawdowbane type void?
Why would the developers need the PvE players to go PvP?
It is very simple. PvE content appeals to PvE players. E sports/arena obvious attracts enough PvP players. They both have what they want to play.
Shifting PvE players to PvP does NOT get you more customers.
Wha? So you don't think developers should listen to approx 70% of all MMO gamers? I know there is quite a bit of animosity towards PvP as it typically will get PvE nerfed in some way throughout the life an MMO. No PvE players have ever quit due to PvP balancing BS? PvE players opinions of PvP does matter.
I'm not interested in PvP period, no matter how it's done. Now I don't care if it's included in the game, so long as I can completely opt out of it, and as such, it's only tolerable if it doesn't affect me in the least.
As a PvE player almost exclusively I was wondering what other PvE players find to be the more tolerable form of PvP. I definitely feel that PvP with a larger purpose would appeal more to the PvE player rather than arenas and e sport PvP.
If what I suspect is true, why do developers continue to focus so much on E Sport/Arena style PvP when they could possible grab a more significant piece of the pie with more focus on large scale PvP?
I could even so myself subing to a Shadowbane type game if there was a large common goal to work towards rather than killing each other over and over for nothing. Do you think GW2 would fill this Shawdowbane type void?
Why would the developers need the PvE players to go PvP?
It is very simple. PvE content appeals to PvE players. E sports/arena obvious attracts enough PvP players. They both have what they want to play.
Shifting PvE players to PvP does NOT get you more customers.
Wha? So you don't think developers should listen to approx 70% of all MMO gamers? I know there is quite a bit of animosity towards PvP as it typically will get PvE nerfed in some way throughout the life an MMO. No PvE players have ever quit due to PvP balancing BS? PvE players opinions of PvP does matter.
Where do you get that 70% of all MMO gamers want PvE players to go PvP?
As a PvE player almost exclusively I was wondering what other PvE players find to be the more tolerable form of PvP. I definitely feel that PvP with a larger purpose would appeal more to the PvE player rather than arenas and e sport PvP.
If what I suspect is true, why do developers continue to focus so much on E Sport/Arena style PvP when they could possible grab a more significant piece of the pie with more focus on large scale PvP?
I could even so myself subing to a Shadowbane type game if there was a large common goal to work towards rather than killing each other over and over for nothing. Do you think GW2 would fill this Shawdowbane type void?
Why would the developers need the PvE players to go PvP?
It is very simple. PvE content appeals to PvE players. E sports/arena obvious attracts enough PvP players. They both have what they want to play.
Shifting PvE players to PvP does NOT get you more customers.
Wha? So you don't think developers should listen to approx 70% of all MMO gamers? I know there is quite a bit of animosity towards PvP as it typically will get PvE nerfed in some way throughout the life an MMO. No PvE players have ever quit due to PvP balancing BS? PvE players opinions of PvP does matter.
Where do you get that 70% of all MMO gamers want PvE players to go PvP?
Where do you get that they dont?
Very few players are purists, interested solely in pve or pvp, and the more the merrier
I would guess, even from a developer standpoint, it would be beneficial to have people participate in both, becasue that way more people are entertained longer and thus they play longer.
Very few players are purists, interested solely in pve or pvp, and the more the merrier
I would guess, even from a developer standpoint, it would be beneficial to have people participate in both, becasue that way more people are entertained longer and thus they play longer.
Flame on!
Umm... I remember that something like 90% of GW1 players were solely PvE players. Over 50% of Eve players live in hi-sec which is where you'd live if you want to avoid PvP.
I think the overwhelming majority of MMO players are PvE players. Precisely the kind that does hardly any PvP ever.
Every developer has tried to introduce PvP to PvE players or make that transition easier but I can't remember if any have had much success.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
100% of PVP players want PVE players to PVP - then they have easy farming - the so successful Aion model.
Lets cut the crap here. If you like open world pvp then the pvp server is for you.
If not, then go on the pve server and you can choose if you want to enter battlegrounds.
If you're a pve player and the game doesn't have pve servers, then welcome to gank hell.
Exactly!
Almost every single time Someone on these forums or any other forum asks PvE Players to try out a PvP server, or a new type of PvP, it's mainly for one reason:
The PvPers need more targets and they hope the dumb PvE Players will come to their MMO and give the PvPers some fun.
That's all it is.
When the PvPers stop jumping on corpses after they kill, when the PvPers stop asking Devs to full loot, when the PvPerss stop trash talking everytime they get the chance, when PvPers stop treating PvEers like a it's Michigan Deer Hunting Season and the PvEers are the Deer... then I might try out PvP again.
Very few players are purists, interested solely in pve or pvp, and the more the merrier
I would guess, even from a developer standpoint, it would be beneficial to have people participate in both, becasue that way more people are entertained longer and thus they play longer.
Flame on!
Umm... I remember that something like 90% of GW1 players were solely PvE players. Over 50% of Eve players live in hi-sec which is where you'd live if you want to avoid PvP.
I think the overwhelming majority of MMO players are PvE players. Precisely the kind that does hardly any PvP ever.
Every developer has tried to introduce PvP to PvE players or make that transition easier but I can't remember if any have had much success.
That's because PvE players are typically not as ignorant or foolish as some Devs and Players hope they are.
I am 100% convinced that most MMO Players are PvE Players, *and* I am 100% convinced that majority will always be a silent majority, because it's in their nature to read but not respond on forums, and Facebook and such. They will click the like button, but they don't want to get involved in internet arguments about the MMOs they play. In some ways they are wiser than most of us and stay out of the fray. The majority of PvE Players aren't going to get "converted" or "convinced" to being PvP players.
Very few players are purists, interested solely in pve or pvp, and the more the merrier
I would guess, even from a developer standpoint, it would be beneficial to have people participate in both, becasue that way more people are entertained longer and thus they play longer.
Flame on!
Umm... I remember that something like 90% of GW1 players were solely PvE players. Over 50% of Eve players live in hi-sec which is where you'd live if you want to avoid PvP.
I think the overwhelming majority of MMO players are PvE players. Precisely the kind that does hardly any PvP ever.
Every developer has tried to introduce PvP to PvE players or make that transition easier but I can't remember if any have had much success.
And 100% of starcraft players play a real time strategy...
I dont think the majority of wow players has played without occasionally participating in bgs (meaning alterac, if you want), or in Eve never participated in mass pvp.
Does that mean they would care for pvp, or they would leave without it? No. Will they say they are solely PvE players? YES.
My point is not that devs should FORCE players to join pvp, but to set up the system, so that, if they like, pve players can participate in a pvp activity of some sort that is tailored to their playstyle, not creating a disconnected system of pvp/pve-only players unable to participate outside their focus because the system is completely off of anything they would enjoy.
A chance to test that new crafted ubersword +3 on a unsuspecting evil-doer is fun, no?
As a PvE player almost exclusively I was wondering what other PvE players find to be the more tolerable form of PvP. I definitely feel that PvP with a larger purpose would appeal more to the PvE player rather than arenas and e sport PvP.
If what I suspect is true, why do developers continue to focus so much on E Sport/Arena style PvP when they could possible grab a more significant piece of the pie with more focus on large scale PvP?
I could even so myself subing to a Shadowbane type game if there was a large common goal to work towards rather than killing each other over and over for nothing. Do you think GW2 would fill this Shawdowbane type void?
I am now a 100% PvE Player. I even preach about it. So there are my "pve creditials" so to speak.
When I started playing MMOs 10 years ago I started in DAoC. That is still the only form of PvP that I am even remotely interested in, so yes if you consider DAoC's RvR to be large scale PvP then your theory fits my circumstance well.
Developers focus so much on E sport and Arena style so much for one simple and overlooked reason:
They are not MMO Devs. They are Console Gaming and FPS Devs, at least a good portion of them are, or that is the game genre they are most interested in. To me it's very obvious that the people making our MMOs are not MMO Players themselves.
I think large scale PvP is easier for more casual PvP players.
If you just have 5 vs 5 or smaller battlegrounds it is a lot more competetive. When you have 100+ players from your guild it gets less personal and people wont get as many personal complaints if they didn´t do so well while they learn to play.
So yeah, I think large scale PvP will be more popular with PvE mainly players than structured PvP.
Very few players are purists, interested solely in pve or pvp, and the more the merrier
I would guess, even from a developer standpoint, it would be beneficial to have people participate in both, becasue that way more people are entertained longer and thus they play longer.
Flame on!
Umm... I remember that something like 90% of GW1 players were solely PvE players. Over 50% of Eve players live in hi-sec which is where you'd live if you want to avoid PvP.
I think the overwhelming majority of MMO players are PvE players. Precisely the kind that does hardly any PvP ever.
Every developer has tried to introduce PvP to PvE players or make that transition easier but I can't remember if any have had much success.
And 100% of starcraft players play a real time strategy...
I dont think the majority of wow players has played without occasionally participating in bgs (meaning alterac, if you want), or in Eve never participated in mass pvp.
Does that mean they would care for pvp, or they would leave without it? No. Will they say they are solely PvE players? YES.
My point is not that devs should FORCE players to join pvp, but to set up the system, so that, if they like, pve players can participate in a pvp activity of some sort that is tailored to their playstyle, not creating a disconnected system of pvp/pve-only players unable to participate outside their focus because the system is completely off of anything they would enjoy.
A chance to test that new crafted ubersword +3 on a unsuspecting evil-doer is fun, no?
Flame on!
One last comment this morning and then I am out of here for today...
A developer can NOT create a quality and balanced MMORPG / MMO / IVG that is good both in the areas of PvE and PvP. It can not be done. One or both "Camps" will suffer. That has been proven in this genre time and time again. If the Devs don't self destruct it with bad ideas, the Players themselves fight each other out of game to make the game more to their own personal liking, and in so doing they destroy the very game they are trying to improve.
No. Make MMOs either PvP centric, or PvE centric, but not both. Choose. You can not make everyone happy with one product. American business learned this lesson long ago. All you can do is get most of the customers in a revolving door scenario buying a garbage product and that is exactly how the MMO genre has been doing business these last few years.
I think for pve players, the biggest factor is making PvP more dynamic. Rather then a mindless zerg or silly grabbing flags, having it more like a seige or involving more components then 'kill kill kill' and really creating a more advanced level of play behind it that really shows a reaction to the world based off what your actions do.
Very few players are purists, interested solely in pve or pvp, and the more the merrier
I would guess, even from a developer standpoint, it would be beneficial to have people participate in both, becasue that way more people are entertained longer and thus they play longer.
Flame on!
Umm... I remember that something like 90% of GW1 players were solely PvE players. Over 50% of Eve players live in hi-sec which is where you'd live if you want to avoid PvP.
I think the overwhelming majority of MMO players are PvE players. Precisely the kind that does hardly any PvP ever.
Every developer has tried to introduce PvP to PvE players or make that transition easier but I can't remember if any have had much success.
And 100% of starcraft players play a real time strategy...
I dont think the majority of wow players has played without occasionally participating in bgs (meaning alterac, if you want), or in Eve never participated in mass pvp.
Does that mean they would care for pvp, or they would leave without it? No. Will they say they are solely PvE players? YES.
My point is not that devs should FORCE players to join pvp, but to set up the system, so that, if they like, pve players can participate in a pvp activity of some sort that is tailored to their playstyle, not creating a disconnected system of pvp/pve-only players unable to participate outside their focus because the system is completely off of anything they would enjoy.
A chance to test that new crafted ubersword +3 on a unsuspecting evil-doer is fun, no?
Flame on!
One last comment this morning and then I am out of here for today...
A developer can NOT create a quality and balanced MMORPG / MMO / IVG that is good both in the areas of PvE and PvP. It can not be done. One or both "Camps" will suffer. That has been proven in this genre time and time again. If the Devs don't self destruct it with bad ideas, the Players themselves fight each other out of game to make the game more to their own personal liking, and in so doing they destroy the very game they are trying to improve.
No. Make MMOs either PvP centric, or PvE centric, but not both. Choose. You can not make everyone happy with one product. American business learned this lesson long ago. All you can do is get most of the customers in a revolving door scenario buying a garbage product and that is exactly how the MMO genre has been doing business these last few years.
What-centric is Eve then?
Or are we now arguing within the limited frame of a eq2-or-wow-like game?
First one needs a really well designed PvP system. This is a LOT of work. You want a system where each player has chances against each other player, but the system should also be deep, complex and interesting.
In my attempts to create such a system, I simply tried to do it with 5 classes: Knight, Ranger, Rogue, Cleric, Mage, and made a very Lineage 2 inspired rock-paper-scissors, something like this:
Knight kills Ranger and Mage with defense vs ranged damage, magic damage reflection, high health, combat jump, cripple (slow), knockdown, area attack vs invisibility (Twohander), lifetap ability
Ranger kills Mage and Rogue with ranged stun attack, spell evasion, awareness (can see through stealth), high ranged damage, and runspeed
Rogue kills Cleric and Knight with hide in plain sight, backstab attack, high armor penetration (dagger) and disrupt magic ability
Cleric kills Knight and Ranger with high armor penetration (hammer), high defense vs ranged (shield), and superior healing
Mage kills Rogue and Cleric with true sight (immunity vs stealth), blur (hide behind illusion), high ranged damage
Naturally, one would have to make it much more complex, so everyone stands a chance against everyone else. And make more classes.
Once we have a good system thats fairly balanced and offers a lot of variance, then good PvP can look like this:
- An Arena with an ELO system, or something compareable, like for chess. That means: you are brilliant - you fight the best opponents. You are awful - you face your own. This way, the challenge is maximized and frustration is minimized.
- An open world PvP where each opponent is "reset" in the beginning. I.e. you attack someone - you two are both healed to maximum (including mana etc), your timers are reset (so nobodies uber ability is down), and your buffs are stripped (so you can only apply the buffs of your group). Then there is a short delay where everybody can reapply their buffs, after which the battle starts. In the end, the winning party will gain some form of general ressource - like money - from the losing party. But no full loot because frankly the whole concept of that sucks big time and destoys the PvE part, the "building", of the game.
The game also need safe zones. Zones where you can explore and adventure, but the rewards are lower. EVE does this part brilliantly - you can always choose between safety and risk.
- Clan battles for ressources. These are mass PvP events, like Lineage 2 style castle sieges, where one alliance of attackers tries to take a country from another alliace of defenders.
Or in short: PvP should be sportive and meaningful. You should stand a chance, the other guy should stand a chance, and the reward should be good but not overwhelming.
I played Ultima Online AND WoW in the past (for years) and this is my take on it. I love open world PvP, HOWEVER.....strange as it may seem, the most fun I ever had in PvP was doing the large scale city raids in WoW vanilla before battlegrounds and arenas even existed. The Tauren Mill / Southshore "football game" was fun too. People PvP'd for FUN. Gathering a huge surprise attack was a blast. Even if someone was a "double agent" and narc'd out our attack to the enemy.....it was still so much fun. I felt like I could really make a robust contribution in those efforts and I ENJOYED them.
I'm not sure how I will like GW2's PvP. I'm not really planning on playing it for the PvP, although I never rule it out. I might get into it, I might not. I don't, however, see it being anything like the old time WoW city raids.
Very few players are purists, interested solely in pve or pvp, and the more the merrier
I would guess, even from a developer standpoint, it would be beneficial to have people participate in both, becasue that way more people are entertained longer and thus they play longer.
Flame on!
Umm... I remember that something like 90% of GW1 players were solely PvE players. Over 50% of Eve players live in hi-sec which is where you'd live if you want to avoid PvP.
I think the overwhelming majority of MMO players are PvE players. Precisely the kind that does hardly any PvP ever.
Every developer has tried to introduce PvP to PvE players or make that transition easier but I can't remember if any have had much success.
And 100% of starcraft players play a real time strategy...
I dont think the majority of wow players has played without occasionally participating in bgs (meaning alterac, if you want), or in Eve never participated in mass pvp.
Does that mean they would care for pvp, or they would leave without it? No. Will they say they are solely PvE players? YES.
My point is not that devs should FORCE players to join pvp, but to set up the system, so that, if they like, pve players can participate in a pvp activity of some sort that is tailored to their playstyle, not creating a disconnected system of pvp/pve-only players unable to participate outside their focus because the system is completely off of anything they would enjoy.
A chance to test that new crafted ubersword +3 on a unsuspecting evil-doer is fun, no?
Flame on!
One last comment this morning and then I am out of here for today...
A developer can NOT create a quality and balanced MMORPG / MMO / IVG that is good both in the areas of PvE and PvP. It can not be done. One or both "Camps" will suffer. That has been proven in this genre time and time again. If the Devs don't self destruct it with bad ideas, the Players themselves fight each other out of game to make the game more to their own personal liking, and in so doing they destroy the very game they are trying to improve.
No. Make MMOs either PvP centric, or PvE centric, but not both. Choose. You can not make everyone happy with one product. American business learned this lesson long ago. All you can do is get most of the customers in a revolving door scenario buying a garbage product and that is exactly how the MMO genre has been doing business these last few years.
What-centric is Eve then?
Or are we now arguing within the limited frame of a eq2-or-wow-like game?
Flame on!
PvP with PvE as a means to earn money so one can PvP
Or in short: PvP should be sportive and meaningful. You should stand a chance, the other guy should stand a chance, and the reward should be good but not overwhelming.
I completely disagree. PvP in MMORPGs should not be sportive (there are countless other games for e-sport PvP on the market).
BTW, this is a thread about PvE-players and large scale PvP - and you make a post primary about class balance in small-scale encounters. There's nothing large-scale in 1vs1.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
Comments
In reply to a post earlier, Guild Wars 2 will have the best of both worlds. Competitive e-sport arenas that makes everyone wear the same gear and WvWvW open-world PVP (which is a large scale arena with limited players that can enter) In fact the open-world pvp in guild wars is competitive as well as each server is ranked on a ladder just like teams in the e-sport arena mode. So even casual players get that competitive edge and wants to help bump their server up the ladder by going for certain objectives.
Also balance is in the open-world to as every level 80 item is the same regardless what difficulty dungeon you get it from or open-world boss that drops. Gear is cosmetic only at an equal level so skill is the only factor and balancing out skills in a game like this. Of course it will take some time before everyone is max level to balance the gear out in the server arenas.
I think Guild Wars 2 will make PvP in this genre bearable to everyone and I think more should take note of this especially that they should remove the whole gear factor...this makes it easier to balance the game's class skills if everyone is the same.
Why would the developers need the PvE players to go PvP?
It is very simple. PvE content appeals to PvE players. E sports/arena obvious attracts enough PvP players. They both have what they want to play.
Shifting PvE players to PvP does NOT get you more customers.
I agree. Goatgod you bring up that console gamers-thing way too often and it is a crude stereotype and all too obvious strawman. There is no "console rabble", "the PC-gaming master race" or "the MMORPG elite" for that matter. Its all in your head, man. We're all just gamers.
I GM'ed pen & paper rpgs before I turned to MMORPGs. I dabbled in MTG too. Only "dabbled" because sadly it didn't caught on with my friends. And yes, I did try some of the old MMORPGs and none of them felt they were good. As a matter of fact I still loath the first MMO I ever played (Lineage 2). I play any game no matter the platform (although I prefer the X360 controller over the PS3 one) as long as they're good. There's probably no genre of games that I don't like, but old-school MMOs... *shudder* just too many bad memories.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Exactly. Small scale competitive PvP and large scale 3 faction warfare. Who says a game can't have both and with gear not being a factor... I see GW2 for being the epitome of MMORPGs for most player. Not all, brcause you simply can't please everyone. Whether PvE'ers will dabble in it has yet to be seen, but it seems to provide an environment that is the least threatening for PvE'ers to dip their toes in.
I like PvP when it is part of the meta-universe. Like Eve Online. Like Fallen Earth when I played it in 2009/2010 before Icarus' collapse.
When it's just for gear-grinding, dueling or a plain-old-gank-fest for no real reason... I find it anywhere from pointless to game-breaking.
Ah, if you were in a Drake, I'd expect you to screw up...
(That's a joke, I don't know how carebear Drakes are now, but I when played... Let's just say there was a lot of negativity toward Drake pilots and thier bloated sheild builds.)
I expect pve players will find large scale pve more tolerable......
Wha? So you don't think developers should listen to approx 70% of all MMO gamers? I know there is quite a bit of animosity towards PvP as it typically will get PvE nerfed in some way throughout the life an MMO. No PvE players have ever quit due to PvP balancing BS? PvE players opinions of PvP does matter.
I'm not interested in PvP period, no matter how it's done. Now I don't care if it's included in the game, so long as I can completely opt out of it, and as such, it's only tolerable if it doesn't affect me in the least.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
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Hope: None
Where do you get that 70% of all MMO gamers want PvE players to go PvP?
Where do you get that they dont?
Very few players are purists, interested solely in pve or pvp, and the more the merrier
I would guess, even from a developer standpoint, it would be beneficial to have people participate in both, becasue that way more people are entertained longer and thus they play longer.
Flame on!
Umm... I remember that something like 90% of GW1 players were solely PvE players. Over 50% of Eve players live in hi-sec which is where you'd live if you want to avoid PvP.
I think the overwhelming majority of MMO players are PvE players. Precisely the kind that does hardly any PvP ever.
Every developer has tried to introduce PvP to PvE players or make that transition easier but I can't remember if any have had much success.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
100% of PVP players want PVE players to PVP - then they have easy farming - the so successful Aion model.
Lets cut the crap here. If you like open world pvp then the pvp server is for you.
If not, then go on the pve server and you can choose if you want to enter battlegrounds.
If you're a pve player and the game doesn't have pve servers, then welcome to gank hell.
Exactly!
Almost every single time Someone on these forums or any other forum asks PvE Players to try out a PvP server, or a new type of PvP, it's mainly for one reason:
The PvPers need more targets and they hope the dumb PvE Players will come to their MMO and give the PvPers some fun.
That's all it is.
When the PvPers stop jumping on corpses after they kill, when the PvPers stop asking Devs to full loot, when the PvPerss stop trash talking everytime they get the chance, when PvPers stop treating PvEers like a it's Michigan Deer Hunting Season and the PvEers are the Deer... then I might try out PvP again.
That's because PvE players are typically not as ignorant or foolish as some Devs and Players hope they are.
I am 100% convinced that most MMO Players are PvE Players, *and* I am 100% convinced that majority will always be a silent majority, because it's in their nature to read but not respond on forums, and Facebook and such. They will click the like button, but they don't want to get involved in internet arguments about the MMOs they play. In some ways they are wiser than most of us and stay out of the fray. The majority of PvE Players aren't going to get "converted" or "convinced" to being PvP players.
And 100% of starcraft players play a real time strategy...
I dont think the majority of wow players has played without occasionally participating in bgs (meaning alterac, if you want), or in Eve never participated in mass pvp.
Does that mean they would care for pvp, or they would leave without it? No. Will they say they are solely PvE players? YES.
My point is not that devs should FORCE players to join pvp, but to set up the system, so that, if they like, pve players can participate in a pvp activity of some sort that is tailored to their playstyle, not creating a disconnected system of pvp/pve-only players unable to participate outside their focus because the system is completely off of anything they would enjoy.
A chance to test that new crafted ubersword +3 on a unsuspecting evil-doer is fun, no?
Flame on!
I am now a 100% PvE Player. I even preach about it. So there are my "pve creditials" so to speak.
When I started playing MMOs 10 years ago I started in DAoC. That is still the only form of PvP that I am even remotely interested in, so yes if you consider DAoC's RvR to be large scale PvP then your theory fits my circumstance well.
Developers focus so much on E sport and Arena style so much for one simple and overlooked reason:
They are not MMO Devs. They are Console Gaming and FPS Devs, at least a good portion of them are, or that is the game genre they are most interested in. To me it's very obvious that the people making our MMOs are not MMO Players themselves.
I think large scale PvP is easier for more casual PvP players.
If you just have 5 vs 5 or smaller battlegrounds it is a lot more competetive. When you have 100+ players from your guild it gets less personal and people wont get as many personal complaints if they didn´t do so well while they learn to play.
So yeah, I think large scale PvP will be more popular with PvE mainly players than structured PvP.
One last comment this morning and then I am out of here for today...
A developer can NOT create a quality and balanced MMORPG / MMO / IVG that is good both in the areas of PvE and PvP. It can not be done. One or both "Camps" will suffer. That has been proven in this genre time and time again. If the Devs don't self destruct it with bad ideas, the Players themselves fight each other out of game to make the game more to their own personal liking, and in so doing they destroy the very game they are trying to improve.
No. Make MMOs either PvP centric, or PvE centric, but not both. Choose. You can not make everyone happy with one product. American business learned this lesson long ago. All you can do is get most of the customers in a revolving door scenario buying a garbage product and that is exactly how the MMO genre has been doing business these last few years.
I think for pve players, the biggest factor is making PvP more dynamic. Rather then a mindless zerg or silly grabbing flags, having it more like a seige or involving more components then 'kill kill kill' and really creating a more advanced level of play behind it that really shows a reaction to the world based off what your actions do.
What-centric is Eve then?
Or are we now arguing within the limited frame of a eq2-or-wow-like game?
Flame on!
First one needs a really well designed PvP system. This is a LOT of work. You want a system where each player has chances against each other player, but the system should also be deep, complex and interesting.
In my attempts to create such a system, I simply tried to do it with 5 classes: Knight, Ranger, Rogue, Cleric, Mage, and made a very Lineage 2 inspired rock-paper-scissors, something like this:
Knight kills Ranger and Mage with defense vs ranged damage, magic damage reflection, high health, combat jump, cripple (slow), knockdown, area attack vs invisibility (Twohander), lifetap ability
Ranger kills Mage and Rogue with ranged stun attack, spell evasion, awareness (can see through stealth), high ranged damage, and runspeed
Rogue kills Cleric and Knight with hide in plain sight, backstab attack, high armor penetration (dagger) and disrupt magic ability
Cleric kills Knight and Ranger with high armor penetration (hammer), high defense vs ranged (shield), and superior healing
Mage kills Rogue and Cleric with true sight (immunity vs stealth), blur (hide behind illusion), high ranged damage
Naturally, one would have to make it much more complex, so everyone stands a chance against everyone else. And make more classes.
Once we have a good system thats fairly balanced and offers a lot of variance, then good PvP can look like this:
- An Arena with an ELO system, or something compareable, like for chess. That means: you are brilliant - you fight the best opponents. You are awful - you face your own. This way, the challenge is maximized and frustration is minimized.
- An open world PvP where each opponent is "reset" in the beginning. I.e. you attack someone - you two are both healed to maximum (including mana etc), your timers are reset (so nobodies uber ability is down), and your buffs are stripped (so you can only apply the buffs of your group). Then there is a short delay where everybody can reapply their buffs, after which the battle starts. In the end, the winning party will gain some form of general ressource - like money - from the losing party. But no full loot because frankly the whole concept of that sucks big time and destoys the PvE part, the "building", of the game.
The game also need safe zones. Zones where you can explore and adventure, but the rewards are lower. EVE does this part brilliantly - you can always choose between safety and risk.
- Clan battles for ressources. These are mass PvP events, like Lineage 2 style castle sieges, where one alliance of attackers tries to take a country from another alliace of defenders.
Or in short: PvP should be sportive and meaningful. You should stand a chance, the other guy should stand a chance, and the reward should be good but not overwhelming.
I played Ultima Online AND WoW in the past (for years) and this is my take on it. I love open world PvP, HOWEVER.....strange as it may seem, the most fun I ever had in PvP was doing the large scale city raids in WoW vanilla before battlegrounds and arenas even existed. The Tauren Mill / Southshore "football game" was fun too. People PvP'd for FUN. Gathering a huge surprise attack was a blast. Even if someone was a "double agent" and narc'd out our attack to the enemy.....it was still so much fun. I felt like I could really make a robust contribution in those efforts and I ENJOYED them.
I'm not sure how I will like GW2's PvP. I'm not really planning on playing it for the PvP, although I never rule it out. I might get into it, I might not. I don't, however, see it being anything like the old time WoW city raids.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
PvP with PvE as a means to earn money so one can PvP
I completely disagree. PvP in MMORPGs should not be sportive (there are countless other games for e-sport PvP on the market).
BTW, this is a thread about PvE-players and large scale PvP - and you make a post primary about class balance in small-scale encounters. There's nothing large-scale in 1vs1.
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