Every developer has tried to introduce PvP to PvE players or make that transition easier but I can't remember if any have had much success.
DAoC and Eve would be prime examples of games where PvE players play and enjoy a PvP game. It's not really a secret: one can make PvP-games that PvE players will play, the only thing needed is that the PvE-player can decide whether he/she wants to join PvP at a given moment.
In the case of DAoC it can't get any easier. Stay in your realm and you're safe, go into the frontiers and you're not.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
I think the Op is onto something with this, I've never enjoyed duels in the slightest, or 2v2 etc because I always felt that the class mechanics override player ability at that level.
In WAR I enjoyed the PvP mass-battles because while some will just say it's "zerg" there can be tactics involved though they are more of the meta-scale than dependant upon singular brilliance, which I think is what the smaller-scale PvPers prefer - a chance to shine.
I guess I just prefer things scaled up, not so as I can hide but so as I can feel part of something bigger, like being a soldier in a battle rather than a 6-man sabotage squad (though in larger scale PvP there is actually room for that whereas in 6v6 it's a totally different mechanic) any "shining" is just me patting myself on my own back & instead I prefer to see my "zerg" do well collectively.
Perhaps I wasn't a Wolf in a prior life but an Ant.
As a PvE player almost exclusively I was wondering what other PvE players find to be the more tolerable form of PvP. I definitely feel that PvP with a larger purpose would appeal more to the PvE player rather than arenas and e sport PvP.
If what I suspect is true, why do developers continue to focus so much on E Sport/Arena style PvP when they could possible grab a more significant piece of the pie with more focus on large scale PvP?
I could even so myself subing to a Shadowbane type game if there was a large common goal to work towards rather than killing each other over and over for nothing. Do you think GW2 would fill this Shawdowbane type void?
Why would the developers need the PvE players to go PvP?
It is very simple. PvE content appeals to PvE players. E sports/arena obvious attracts enough PvP players. They both have what they want to play.
Shifting PvE players to PvP does NOT get you more customers.
Wha? So you don't think developers should listen to approx 70% of all MMO gamers? I know there is quite a bit of animosity towards PvP as it typically will get PvE nerfed in some way throughout the life an MMO. No PvE players have ever quit due to PvP balancing BS? PvE players opinions of PvP does matter.
Where do you get that 70% of all MMO gamers want PvE players to go PvP?
Where do you get that they dont?
Very few players are purists, interested solely in pve or pvp, and the more the merrier
I would guess, even from a developer standpoint, it would be beneficial to have people participate in both, becasue that way more people are entertained longer and thus they play longer.
Flame on!
I didn't. You claim the 70% number. So you should back it up. Otherwise, say you do not know and that is just a guess.
As a PvE player almost exclusively I was wondering what other PvE players find to be the more tolerable form of PvP. I definitely feel that PvP with a larger purpose would appeal more to the PvE player rather than arenas and e sport PvP.
If what I suspect is true, why do developers continue to focus so much on E Sport/Arena style PvP when they could possible grab a more significant piece of the pie with more focus on large scale PvP?
I could even so myself subing to a Shadowbane type game if there was a large common goal to work towards rather than killing each other over and over for nothing. Do you think GW2 would fill this Shawdowbane type void?
Why would the developers need the PvE players to go PvP?
It is very simple. PvE content appeals to PvE players. E sports/arena obvious attracts enough PvP players. They both have what they want to play.
Shifting PvE players to PvP does NOT get you more customers.
Wha? So you don't think developers should listen to approx 70% of all MMO gamers? I know there is quite a bit of animosity towards PvP as it typically will get PvE nerfed in some way throughout the life an MMO. No PvE players have ever quit due to PvP balancing BS? PvE players opinions of PvP does matter.
Where do you get that 70% of all MMO gamers want PvE players to go PvP?
Where do you get that they dont?
Very few players are purists, interested solely in pve or pvp, and the more the merrier
I would guess, even from a developer standpoint, it would be beneficial to have people participate in both, becasue that way more people are entertained longer and thus they play longer.
Flame on!
I didn't. You claim the 70% number. So you should back it up. Otherwise, say you do not know and that is just a guess.
I did not claim any numbers
I asked because a 70% pulled out of the behind sounded to me much more likely than a assumption that we have to accomodate some strange purists above everything else.
As a PvE player almost exclusively I was wondering what other PvE players find to be the more tolerable form of PvP. I definitely feel that PvP with a larger purpose would appeal more to the PvE player rather than arenas and e sport PvP.
If what I suspect is true, why do developers continue to focus so much on E Sport/Arena style PvP when they could possible grab a more significant piece of the pie with more focus on large scale PvP?
I could even so myself subing to a Shadowbane type game if there was a large common goal to work towards rather than killing each other over and over for nothing. Do you think GW2 would fill this Shawdowbane type void?
Why would the developers need the PvE players to go PvP?
It is very simple. PvE content appeals to PvE players. E sports/arena obvious attracts enough PvP players. They both have what they want to play.
Shifting PvE players to PvP does NOT get you more customers.
Wha? So you don't think developers should listen to approx 70% of all MMO gamers? I know there is quite a bit of animosity towards PvP as it typically will get PvE nerfed in some way throughout the life an MMO. No PvE players have ever quit due to PvP balancing BS? PvE players opinions of PvP does matter.
Where do you get that 70% of all MMO gamers want PvE players to go PvP?
Where do you get that they dont?
Very few players are purists, interested solely in pve or pvp, and the more the merrier
I would guess, even from a developer standpoint, it would be beneficial to have people participate in both, becasue that way more people are entertained longer and thus they play longer.
Flame on!
I didn't. You claim the 70% number. So you should back it up. Otherwise, say you do not know and that is just a guess.
I did not claim any numbers
I asked because a 70% pulled out of the behind sounded to me much more likely than a assumption that we have to accomodate some strange purists above everything else.
Flame on!
Great. You admit there is no 70% of MMO players asking for PvE players to tolerate PvP? We agree then.
In that case, there is really no need to do anything to make PvE players more incline to PvP. Just let them PvE in peace. THAT is the best "solution". That is, don't break what is already working.
As a PvE player almost exclusively I was wondering what other PvE players find to be the more tolerable form of PvP. I definitely feel that PvP with a larger purpose would appeal more to the PvE player rather than arenas and e sport PvP.
If what I suspect is true, why do developers continue to focus so much on E Sport/Arena style PvP when they could possible grab a more significant piece of the pie with more focus on large scale PvP?
I could even so myself subing to a Shadowbane type game if there was a large common goal to work towards rather than killing each other over and over for nothing. Do you think GW2 would fill this Shawdowbane type void?
Why would the developers need the PvE players to go PvP?
It is very simple. PvE content appeals to PvE players. E sports/arena obvious attracts enough PvP players. They both have what they want to play.
Shifting PvE players to PvP does NOT get you more customers.
Wha? So you don't think developers should listen to approx 70% of all MMO gamers? I know there is quite a bit of animosity towards PvP as it typically will get PvE nerfed in some way throughout the life an MMO. No PvE players have ever quit due to PvP balancing BS? PvE players opinions of PvP does matter.
Where do you get that 70% of all MMO gamers want PvE players to go PvP?
Where do you get that they dont?
Very few players are purists, interested solely in pve or pvp, and the more the merrier
I would guess, even from a developer standpoint, it would be beneficial to have people participate in both, becasue that way more people are entertained longer and thus they play longer.
Flame on!
I didn't. You claim the 70% number. So you should back it up. Otherwise, say you do not know and that is just a guess.
I did not claim any numbers
I asked because a 70% pulled out of the behind sounded to me much more likely than a assumption that we have to accomodate some strange purists above everything else.
Flame on!
Great. You admit there is no 70% of MMO players asking for PvE players to tolerate PvP? We agree then.
In that case, there is really no need to do anything to make PvE players more incline to PvP. Just let them PvE in peace. THAT is the best "solution". That is, don't break what is already working.
That was not the argument at all.
The argument is not "how do we make pve players enjoy/tolerate pvp", pve players already enjoy pvp, but not the form of pvp pvp players usually focus on, or have strong opinions about pvp, that is how i understood the 70% comment, especially in contrast of your comment about some clearly defined groups existing that are solely interested in pve or pvp and dont care about the other at all.
And what do you see as working? Empty bgs populated solely by premades prepared to roflstomp you on sight if you are not part of a premade, because noone else bothers queueing? (extreme wotlk "im plate, who is more" era example, your experience may vary, ofc)
I don't understand why people cannot like PVP other than they find it too hard to fight against anything other than dumb A.I. Just make a group with friends, turn off local chat, turn on mics and have a blast with mates killing other players which is much harder, challenging and more rewarding than any A.I I've played against in any game.
I don't understand why people like to PvP other than they can't fight in real life, thus they need to be in a virtual world where they can "kill" other people's pixels without getting their ass physically handed to them.
Just sayin'.
Signed, a PvE'er.
WOW! thats the most stupid comment i have ever read.
I don't understand why people cannot like PVP other than they find it too hard to fight against anything other than dumb A.I. Just make a group with friends, turn off local chat, turn on mics and have a blast with mates killing other players which is much harder, challenging and more rewarding than any A.I I've played against in any game.
I don't understand why people like to PvP other than they can't fight in real life, thus they need to be in a virtual world where they can "kill" other people's pixels without getting their ass physically handed to them.
Just sayin'.
Signed, a PvE'er.
WOW! thats the most stupid comment i have ever read.
Indeed, the keyboard warrior is strong in this one.
Great. You admit there is no 70% of MMO players asking for PvE players to tolerate PvP? We agree then.
In that case, there is really no need to do anything to make PvE players more incline to PvP. Just let them PvE in peace. THAT is the best "solution". That is, don't break what is already working.
That was not the argument at all.
The argument is not "how do we make pve players enjoy/tolerate pvp", pve players already enjoy pvp, but not the form of pvp pvp players usually focus on, or have strong opinions about pvp, that is how i understood the 70% comment, especially in contrast of your comment about some clearly defined groups existing that are solely interested in pve or pvp and dont care about the other at all.
And what do you see as working? Empty bgs populated solely by premades prepared to roflstomp you on sight if you are not part of a premade, because noone else bothers queueing? (extreme wotlk "im plate, who is more" era example, your experience may vary, ofc)
Flame on!
Now you change the argument?
Back to the point. What is the point to make pve players enjoy/tolerate pvp? There is no such need. If they want to pvp, they would have. If they want to pve, let them.
What do i see as working? PvEers who can PvE in peace without dealing with PvP at all if they don't want to. That is CHOICE and it works in my case. I don't see why a choice between PvE and PvP would not work for you.
What empty BGs? Have you been to one lately? All the ones i have tried occasionally are full. There is NOTHING wrong with them. There are many people who want to pvp .. i don't see how it will improve their game if you drag those PvEers who don't want to into it.
I remember play wow and fallen earth, they have this dedicated world pvp area. And no one is ever there. Everyone is in battleground.
World pvp is just a bad idea.
Those who want to pvp cannot find many players there. It is a crap shoot.
Those who just want to pve got harassed and inconvenced.
BG is much better. Those who want to pvp go there. Those who don't stay away. This is the power of CHOICE. Oh, and if you do cross-realm matching, there is no shortage of players in BG for you to kill.
Every developer has tried to introduce PvP to PvE players or make that transition easier but I can't remember if any have had much success.
DAoC and Eve would be prime examples of games where PvE players play and enjoy a PvP game. It's not really a secret: one can make PvP-games that PvE players will play, the only thing needed is that the PvE-player can decide whether he/she wants to join PvP at a given moment.
In the case of DAoC it can't get any easier. Stay in your realm and you're safe, go into the frontiers and you're not.
"the only thing needed is that the PvE-player can decide whether he/she wants to join PvP at a given moment."
So, you a pve player is playing a pvp game but doenst want to play pvp? This is like a person going to a soccer stadium to play a soccer match, but not wanting to use her feet.
I think this person is on the wrong game.
The point that pve gamers dont get is, pvp games dont need to be aimed at pve games, in the same way that pve games dont need to be aimed at pvp gamers.
As a purely PVE gamer, if I was competing in some form of PVP, then team PVP is preferable.
Something like DAoC.....you can do your PVE, or you can get out in the open world realm vs realm. No matter what I would never have interest in a full time PVP game, as with my health issues, bathroom breaks can come in bunches. PVE allows me to play when I wish.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
When I first entered my first PvP zone, Asee-teph, in Allods Online, I hated the idea of trying to complete quests and getting one hitted my higher level players. But as I progressed, I suddenly realised that it was well designed how fun the whole thing was. It even gave you two options in completing that zone. Grind the quests or PvP all the way through...
Very few players are purists, interested solely in pve or pvp, and the more the merrier
I would guess, even from a developer standpoint, it would be beneficial to have people participate in both, becasue that way more people are entertained longer and thus they play longer.
Flame on!
Umm... I remember that something like 90% of GW1 players were solely PvE players. Over 50% of Eve players live in hi-sec which is where you'd live if you want to avoid PvP.
I think the overwhelming majority of MMO players are PvE players. Precisely the kind that does hardly any PvP ever.
Every developer has tried to introduce PvP to PvE players or make that transition easier but I can't remember if any have had much success.
And 100% of starcraft players play a real time strategy...
I dont think the majority of wow players has played without occasionally participating in bgs (meaning alterac, if you want), or in Eve never participated in mass pvp.
Does that mean they would care for pvp, or they would leave without it? No. Will they say they are solely PvE players? YES.
My point is not that devs should FORCE players to join pvp, but to set up the system, so that, if they like, pve players can participate in a pvp activity of some sort that is tailored to their playstyle, not creating a disconnected system of pvp/pve-only players unable to participate outside their focus because the system is completely off of anything they would enjoy.
A chance to test that new crafted ubersword +3 on a unsuspecting evil-doer is fun, no?
Flame on!
One last comment this morning and then I am out of here for today...
A developer can NOT create a quality and balanced MMORPG / MMO / IVG that is good both in the areas of PvE and PvP. It can not be done. One or both "Camps" will suffer. That has been proven in this genre time and time again. If the Devs don't self destruct it with bad ideas, the Players themselves fight each other out of game to make the game more to their own personal liking, and in so doing they destroy the very game they are trying to improve.
No. Make MMOs either PvP centric, or PvE centric, but not both. Choose. You can not make everyone happy with one product. American business learned this lesson long ago. All you can do is get most of the customers in a revolving door scenario buying a garbage product and that is exactly how the MMO genre has been doing business these last few years.
What-centric is Eve then?
Or are we now arguing within the limited frame of a eq2-or-wow-like game?
Flame on!
I consider EvE Online to be a PvP-Centric MMORPG with PvE content designed to Promote PvP. I played for four years and attempted to find a way to fit into EvE as a purely PvE player only to finely admit to myself that I had wasted my time. At least the Gate Campers enjoyed my stay.
If you take a close look at most PvE content that has been added to EvE through the years one common denominator keeps showing up time and time again... no matter what the PvE content or feature is.... there is at least one way the PvP Players can use the new content to their own advantage to garnor some PvP fun.
From a PvP Player's point of view perhaps some would say EvE Online is not a PvP centric MMO, but from my POV, a PvE POV, it most certainly is. IMHO anyone that says otherwise is either 1.) without comprehension of what EvE really is, or 2.) a PvPer looking for new and unexperienced targets.
Do I think EvE Online is a good PvP MMO? I can't answer that. I am not a PvPer. I just know it is a PvP MMO.
Do I think EvE Online is a good PvE MMO? No I do NOT.
Does it have some very good PvE features? Yes it does, or at least it did. That does not make EvE a PvE centric MMO.
Large scale PVP is definitely more tolerable....The reason why I have never liked PVP is that it is almost never a fair match....In large scale you can hide or use tactics to survive (well some games anyway)....The problem with one on one PVP is the other player is either much higher level or much better geared (ie cash shop)......
Consider WoW's PvP system: it's massive, full of douchebaggery, insanely substantial level discrepancy, and large-scale, unwieldy entailments. As a predominantly PvE player and a huge fan of LotRO, I can say that, in actuality, the size of PvP has little to do with its degree of quality - rather, it's how well the system is regulated and developed.
Anyday, I'll take refinement over substance and gameplay-length/gameplay-breadth.
if you are looking at a game for PVE chances are you are more interested in a sort of RP element to the game, be it exploring the game as you level, or immersion in the story/lore of the game.. basicly breaking down the game to its base elements of "why are we even playing this game.."
in that regard pvp should always be a support tool for that.. if you enter a game where PVP is the main element, and you pretty much are thrown in to an arena with lions you will get bored of it pretty quickly.
where as if the pvp is placed in such away that it gives a PvEr a reason to try out pvp.. aka you pvp for map zones or its more of a story line pvp (take something like WAR's story line kinda deal) then ya pvp can be quite fun and acceptable..
the problem with alot of pvp heavy games now days, is they either are totally lack luster in reasoning or are just a TDM which gets boring and kinda pushes you to not bother. the die hards who only pvp get burned out and find a lack of enemies to fight as the game slowly gets dull.
least to me anyway.. i like my PVP to have a reason.. im not a big fan of just walking down a street and killing someone because i can, now put my nation enemy there and ya i can decide to fight them as there is a reason behind it. makes it not so much a pvp thing but an immersive and game drawning element.
Comments
DAoC and Eve would be prime examples of games where PvE players play and enjoy a PvP game. It's not really a secret: one can make PvP-games that PvE players will play, the only thing needed is that the PvE-player can decide whether he/she wants to join PvP at a given moment.
In the case of DAoC it can't get any easier. Stay in your realm and you're safe, go into the frontiers and you're not.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
I think the Op is onto something with this, I've never enjoyed duels in the slightest, or 2v2 etc because I always felt that the class mechanics override player ability at that level.
In WAR I enjoyed the PvP mass-battles because while some will just say it's "zerg" there can be tactics involved though they are more of the meta-scale than dependant upon singular brilliance, which I think is what the smaller-scale PvPers prefer - a chance to shine.
I guess I just prefer things scaled up, not so as I can hide but so as I can feel part of something bigger, like being a soldier in a battle rather than a 6-man sabotage squad (though in larger scale PvP there is actually room for that whereas in 6v6 it's a totally different mechanic) any "shining" is just me patting myself on my own back & instead I prefer to see my "zerg" do well collectively.
Perhaps I wasn't a Wolf in a prior life but an Ant.
I didn't. You claim the 70% number. So you should back it up. Otherwise, say you do not know and that is just a guess.
I did not claim any numbers
I asked because a 70% pulled out of the behind sounded to me much more likely than a assumption that we have to accomodate some strange purists above everything else.
Flame on!
Great. You admit there is no 70% of MMO players asking for PvE players to tolerate PvP? We agree then.
In that case, there is really no need to do anything to make PvE players more incline to PvP. Just let them PvE in peace. THAT is the best "solution". That is, don't break what is already working.
That was not the argument at all.
The argument is not "how do we make pve players enjoy/tolerate pvp", pve players already enjoy pvp, but not the form of pvp pvp players usually focus on, or have strong opinions about pvp, that is how i understood the 70% comment, especially in contrast of your comment about some clearly defined groups existing that are solely interested in pve or pvp and dont care about the other at all.
And what do you see as working? Empty bgs populated solely by premades prepared to roflstomp you on sight if you are not part of a premade, because noone else bothers queueing? (extreme wotlk "im plate, who is more" era example, your experience may vary, ofc)
Flame on!
Yes because pvp should be made with pve players in mind. /sigh
pve players have to be the most selfish group of players they want everything tailor made to them and wont let pvp players have anything.
WOW! thats the most stupid comment i have ever read.
Indeed, the keyboard warrior is strong in this one.
I remember play wow and fallen earth, they have this dedicated world pvp area. And no one is ever there. Everyone is in battleground.
Now you change the argument?
Back to the point. What is the point to make pve players enjoy/tolerate pvp? There is no such need. If they want to pvp, they would have. If they want to pve, let them.
What do i see as working? PvEers who can PvE in peace without dealing with PvP at all if they don't want to. That is CHOICE and it works in my case. I don't see why a choice between PvE and PvP would not work for you.
What empty BGs? Have you been to one lately? All the ones i have tried occasionally are full. There is NOTHING wrong with them. There are many people who want to pvp .. i don't see how it will improve their game if you drag those PvEers who don't want to into it.
World pvp is just a bad idea.
Those who want to pvp cannot find many players there. It is a crap shoot.
Those who just want to pve got harassed and inconvenced.
BG is much better. Those who want to pvp go there. Those who don't stay away. This is the power of CHOICE. Oh, and if you do cross-realm matching, there is no shortage of players in BG for you to kill.
"the only thing needed is that the PvE-player can decide whether he/she wants to join PvP at a given moment."
So, you a pve player is playing a pvp game but doenst want to play pvp? This is like a person going to a soccer stadium to play a soccer match, but not wanting to use her feet.
I think this person is on the wrong game.
The point that pve gamers dont get is, pvp games dont need to be aimed at pve games, in the same way that pve games dont need to be aimed at pvp gamers.
As a purely PVE gamer, if I was competing in some form of PVP, then team PVP is preferable.
Something like DAoC.....you can do your PVE, or you can get out in the open world realm vs realm. No matter what I would never have interest in a full time PVP game, as with my health issues, bathroom breaks can come in bunches. PVE allows me to play when I wish.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
When I first entered my first PvP zone, Asee-teph, in Allods Online, I hated the idea of trying to complete quests and getting one hitted my higher level players. But as I progressed, I suddenly realised that it was well designed how fun the whole thing was. It even gave you two options in completing that zone. Grind the quests or PvP all the way through...
Brilliant game...
FEEL THE FULL
FREE-TO-FLAME
FANTASY.
I consider EvE Online to be a PvP-Centric MMORPG with PvE content designed to Promote PvP. I played for four years and attempted to find a way to fit into EvE as a purely PvE player only to finely admit to myself that I had wasted my time. At least the Gate Campers enjoyed my stay.
If you take a close look at most PvE content that has been added to EvE through the years one common denominator keeps showing up time and time again... no matter what the PvE content or feature is.... there is at least one way the PvP Players can use the new content to their own advantage to garnor some PvP fun.
From a PvP Player's point of view perhaps some would say EvE Online is not a PvP centric MMO, but from my POV, a PvE POV, it most certainly is. IMHO anyone that says otherwise is either 1.) without comprehension of what EvE really is, or 2.) a PvPer looking for new and unexperienced targets.
Do I think EvE Online is a good PvP MMO? I can't answer that. I am not a PvPer. I just know it is a PvP MMO.
Do I think EvE Online is a good PvE MMO? No I do NOT.
Does it have some very good PvE features? Yes it does, or at least it did. That does not make EvE a PvE centric MMO.
Large scale PVP is definitely more tolerable....The reason why I have never liked PVP is that it is almost never a fair match....In large scale you can hide or use tactics to survive (well some games anyway)....The problem with one on one PVP is the other player is either much higher level or much better geared (ie cash shop)......
Consider WoW's PvP system: it's massive, full of douchebaggery, insanely substantial level discrepancy, and large-scale, unwieldy entailments. As a predominantly PvE player and a huge fan of LotRO, I can say that, in actuality, the size of PvP has little to do with its degree of quality - rather, it's how well the system is regulated and developed.
Anyday, I'll take refinement over substance and gameplay-length/gameplay-breadth.
if you are looking at a game for PVE chances are you are more interested in a sort of RP element to the game, be it exploring the game as you level, or immersion in the story/lore of the game.. basicly breaking down the game to its base elements of "why are we even playing this game.."
in that regard pvp should always be a support tool for that.. if you enter a game where PVP is the main element, and you pretty much are thrown in to an arena with lions you will get bored of it pretty quickly.
where as if the pvp is placed in such away that it gives a PvEr a reason to try out pvp.. aka you pvp for map zones or its more of a story line pvp (take something like WAR's story line kinda deal) then ya pvp can be quite fun and acceptable..
the problem with alot of pvp heavy games now days, is they either are totally lack luster in reasoning or are just a TDM which gets boring and kinda pushes you to not bother. the die hards who only pvp get burned out and find a lack of enemies to fight as the game slowly gets dull.
least to me anyway.. i like my PVP to have a reason.. im not a big fan of just walking down a street and killing someone because i can, now put my nation enemy there and ya i can decide to fight them as there is a reason behind it. makes it not so much a pvp thing but an immersive and game drawning element.