Since we can use old and tired analogies....and speak for millions of gamers....
What if Vanilla ice cream is all you have ever had (newer players, aka WoW), and whenever you tried anything else it was a crappy low-fat vanilla substitute that was trying to be vanilla...Yeah you wouldn't like it....Now say someone offered you vanilla/chocolate twist ice cream that was quality ice cream (a hybrid system), you may like it and decide it is better than your plain old vanilla....Then I come along and say "Hey, you liked twist, try this chocolate!" (sandbox system)...Given that this was AAA chocolate, some of the people that like twist, may decide they like the chocolate more than the other two....
The problem is, for the last 5-8 years or more (I think over 10, and not even focusing on WoW, as WoW was a pumped up version of aspects EQ was adding in its later glory years with instancing and such) all people have been trying to do is make vanilla ice cream with a twist, and anyone that has tried to make twist or chocolate for the most part has given you a melted ice cream cone topped with bugs....Everyone wanted to be the next WoW for profit, thinking they could get there by making the same game with sprinkles or nuts on top of the vanilla ice cream....
People like to dismiss twist and chocolate, but what was the last AAA twist/chocolate fantasy game? Developers have had blinders on, and say what you want, and how they know what makes money, but I submit, they know jack crap, because 90% of these offering that were P2P, have had to change their system and redo their MMO due to it failing....Real innovation has been dead for 5-8 years+ imo...
Despite Skyrim not being an mmo, it wouldn't of sold all those copies, if people were not open to the hybrid type of play it was offering...You don't have to try to make Skyrim a mmo, but it would be nice if someone made something other than vanilla ice cream the past 5-8 years....I think it is happening now, TSW/AA (love them or hate them, they are trying to bring some twist to people)...Even if I don't like them, I hope they do well, mmos have been pretty stagnant imo. I am tired of melted crap with bugs in it....
The people who created the genre, and this is not confined to Garriot, but also bartle and koster, and many many others, namely, huge nerds, designed MMOs to not be the same as other games. It was supposed to be a virtual world.
Then the mainstream colonized MMOs and made them into something COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FROM MMOS.
So? The creators are all out of touch with today's games. Do you go back and ask the guy who created PONG how to develop modern video games?
Garriot has no recent success. His last attempt, Tabula Rasa, is a HUGE failure. And BTW, that was a themepark game. So he does not even practice what he preachers. What is Koster's latest success? None.
At least Bioware is selling 2M boxes for TOR, and that is more than these "creators" have ever seen in their games.
I can't even count how many movies that have come out over the past ten years that have made millions of dollars in profit, despite being the most mindless, plotless, and downright terrible movies imagineable. From a business standpoint, it doesn't matter, because the investors made their money, and the people who worked on the films were paid for their work.
But that still doesn't make these movies good from a cultural or quality sense, nor does it make a game like SWTOR a great MMO... it's just a well marketed MMO.
And that's the problem the MMO industry is suffering. Most developers are doing a half-assed jobs and creating lowest common denominator games, then using the same old marketing spin to get gamers in a frenzy over the same old. They do it because it makes them as much money with the least monetary and creative effort possible.
Just like the movie industry has a habit of grabbing popular IPs and making crappy movies about them, the MMO industry is grabbing popular IPs and making crappy MMOs. Hyping as many players as possible into buying a half-baked game, and then stringing them along for as long as possible with promises of improving a game that has fundamental design flaws... while paying a sub fee of course.
TL;DR: The MMO industry is now full of corporate shills and sell outs, just like the movie and music industries have long since been.
The true irony of the really successful MMOs, even WoW, is that they were all designed with the intention that they were never going to be as popular as they ended up being. Not necessarily unprofitable, but there was no expectation that they would end up being so successful. It's when the industry started churning out MMOs with the expectation to become "the next big thing", did the industry start to really take a nose dive.
At least with movies, Indie companies can make good movies, but Indie video game companies that have good ideas or will take chances, can't seem to make a game without too many bugs or broken features.
Like Teala said, there is room for both ThemeParks and Sandbox, problem is that 95% of the dev. money is going to ThemeParks, creating a very skewed experience.
And why is 95% of the dev. money going to ThemeParks?
At least with movies, Indie companies can make good movies, but Indie video game companies that have good ideas or will take chances, can't seem to make a game without too many bugs or broken features.
Back in my day we had to walk to school in the snow, up hill both ways!
Now all these young whippersnapper with their Elvis and greaser hair cuts... why, these kids are ruining everything!
*yes, I'm refering to your argument as the - old-man who can't understand change "back in my day" argument
Whatever you say. But if your still playing MMO's 10 years from now..it will be YOU trying to explain what MMO's once were as you watch them evolve into something else you may or may not like. If they went to sandboxes again with longer journey's (What MMO's were meant for, NOT destination "end game"), etc. I am willing to bet you will be displeased and endlessly debating with the new players of that generation in the future that had never played your precious WoW, etc and there for had no basis for comparison nor idea what made them great to you..that no longer exists in this new era.
You know you are talking to a UO circa '99 vet right?
A guy who had WoW as his 4th MMO. (well, maybe 5th I only played EQ for like.. a day because it was so boring to me)
But it's ok, keep going.
Ok.....so you played UO...good for you. Then my last post is meaningless for you isn't it. Probably why you found EQ boring...it didn't have, or at least didn't have enough PvP to satisfy your lust for it. Although you seem to enjoy forum PvP thoroughly like the many other "usual suspects" I can't name directly or get banned.
Probably also why you like the current string of MMO's. Almost all incorporate PvP, and are fast paced. It's what you like...then fine. But because I like features that don't incorporate that stuff doesn't mean it's wrong. But you, and others like you constantly troll these forums to forum PvP and tell people like me how wrong we are and how the game types we enjoy would never work. Selfish and greedy people who want EVERY game to meet their desires, and no one can have something otherwise or even state what we like here without being constantly hassled.
Like Teala said, there is room for both ThemeParks and Sandbox, problem is that 95% of the dev. money is going to ThemeParks, creating a very skewed experience.
And why is 95% of the dev. money going to ThemeParks?
Because that is where the investors believe all the profit is.
Well technically out of all the players who play mmorpgs only a small number, relatively, are saying these things
And that is why they are garbage. Too many new school players that have never tried, or never got the chance to experience what made them great and a different genre from...well, any other gaming genre. Nor do they seem to care to.
Back in my day we had to walk to school in the snow, up hill both ways!
Now all these young whippersnapper with their Elvis and greaser hair cuts... why, these kids are ruining everything!
*yes, I'm refering to your argument as the - old-man who can't understand change "back in my day" argument
Whatever you say. But if your still playing MMO's 10 years from now..it will be YOU trying to explain what MMO's once were as you watch them evolve into something else you may or may not like. If they went to sandboxes again with longer journey's (What MMO's were meant for, NOT destination "end game"), etc. I am willing to bet you will be displeased and endlessly debating with the new players of that generation in the future that had never played your precious WoW, etc and there for had no basis for comparison nor idea what made them great to you..that no longer exists in this new era.
For some of us, "ten years from now" has come and gone, yet we aren't jaded and disgruntled. While you may be cane-waggling and talking about how things used to be in the old days, some of us see a wider range of choices with more options to fit our playstyles.
Man I'd love to have some of whatever you're on. There's a lot of things that can be said about modern MMOs but "wider range of choices" is not remotely one of them.
It seems that way to you because you have narrowed your subjective view of what an MMO should be rather than expanded it to include everything an MMO has become.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Back in old, old days (and I am really dating myself with this one) there was a huge die off of video gamers, who largely produced for the Atari 2600 (but a few other platforms too).
They flooded the market with so much crap, that people stopped buying. There are infamously bad titles from that time (ET being one) that were so bad, and so many of them, that it cut back the enitre industry for most of a decade, before the original playstation brought the industry back from ruin.
That is what I see upcoming with the western MMO market.
I've been hoping for this but I simply don't think it'll happen. MMOs have proven to be too profitable. On top of that, gaming is now mainstream, so a lot of casual gamers with very VERY low standards will always buy whatever garbage gets shoveled out.
BTW I'm pretty sure Nintendo brought the industry "back from ruin" a long time before PS1 came out...
....What? Who said anything about the PS1?
That was my mistake, I did mean the original nintendo which came out a good many years after the atari 2600, but even there it took a few years to build up a solid following before it exploded....
On top of that, the vast majority of people making titles for the nintendo were either in Japan or Nintendo itself until much later....
Tell that to the publishers who keep pumping out WoW clones without any idea how the MMO market works, and losing millions.
And your facts are.... where?
Because I've only seen a handful of MMOs shut down...
When you spend 100 million dollars on an MMO, and another 20 million in marketing, trying to be the next WoW killer, and you end up with 20-40k subscribers at the end of your 6th month (much less than most pre WoW MMOs) you might still be running but you are by no means a success. Usually at that point they're making tiny inches of profit and they HAVE to keep it going if they have any hope of recouping their investment. Don't talk business if you don't understand how it works.
You know you are talking to a UO circa '99 vet right?
A guy who had WoW as his 4th MMO. (well, maybe 5th I only played EQ for like.. a day because it was so boring to me)
But it's ok, keep going.
Ok.....so you played UO...good for you. Then my last post is meaningless for you isn't it. Probably why you found EQ boring...it didn't have, or at least didn't have enough PvP to satisfy your lust for it. Although you seem to enjoy forum PvP thoroughly like the many other "usual suspects" I can't name directly or get banned.
Probably also why you like the current string of MMO's. Almost all incorporate PvP, and are fast paced. It's what you like...then fine. But because I like features that don't incorporate that stuff doesn't mean it's wrong. But you, and others like you constantly troll these forums to forum PvP and tell people like me how wrong we are and how the game types we enjoy would never work. Selfish and greedy people who want EVERY game to meet their desires, and no one can have something otherwise or even state what we like here without being constantly hassled.
That's wrong too, unless you are talking about what most of the people in this thread are doing?
Is it better to tell people that they are simple minded morons because they like Themepark games?
Actually I'm one of the folks who thought UO: Renaissance was the golden age of MMORPG gaming.
What I miss about the old days is the games were much more social outside of raids and dungeons. I know that some of the reason was downtime and or challenge and that does not fly anymore it seems. This does not take away the fact that social in the outdoor enviroment is gone for the most part as everyone does the solo thing anymore.
The best game in the old days for social and outdoor enviroment IMHO was SWG. IF only they could have built upon what the core of the game was and not revamp it. I do look forward to GW2 for it seems to try and bring back outdoor fun. I'm also interested in Archage though I still have my doubts about it.
At least with movies, Indie companies can make good movies, but Indie video game companies that have good ideas or will take chances, can't seem to make a game without too many bugs or broken features.
So it's the fault of indie devs for being bad?
No, it is the producers faults for not wanting to invest in indies.
Some people seem to believe that indy companies are refusing producers and their money, that is not the case. They are refusing because the producers want to change their game into something else. For example there was an interview with the creators of the recently failed MMO Earthrise, and he said that they tried desperately to find producers to fund them but simply none were interested in a sandbox MMORPG.
And that is where the issue is. No money, no development into sandbox MMOGs and this the issues will never be resolved. However we do get tons of F2P Themeparks...
When you spend 100 million dollars on an MMO, and another 20 million in marketing, trying to be the next WoW killer, and you end up with 20-40k subscribers at the end of your 6th month (much less than most pre WoW MMOs) you might still be running but you are by no means a success. Usually at that point they're making tiny inches of profit and they HAVE to keep it going if they have any hope of recouping their investment. Don't talk business if you don't understand how it works.
No, it is the producers faults for not wanting to invest in indies.
Some people seem to believe that indy companies are refusing producers and their money, that is not the case. They are refusing because the producers want to change their game into something else. For example there was an interview with the creators of the recently failed MMO Earthrise, and he said that they tried desperately to find producers to fund them but simply none were interested in a sandbox MMORPG.
And that is where the issue is. No money, no development into sandbox MMOGs and this the issues will never be resolved. However we do get tons of F2P Themeparks...
Here's a question..
What are some of the biggest/most successful indie games and WHY are they big and successful?
Tell that to the publishers who keep pumping out WoW clones without any idea how the MMO market works, and losing millions.
And your facts are.... where?
Because I've only seen a handful of MMOs shut down...
When you spend 100 million dollars on an MMO, and another 20 million in marketing, trying to be the next WoW killer, and you end up with 20-40k subscribers at the end of your 6th month (much less than most pre WoW MMOs) you might still be running but you are by no means a success. Usually at that point they're making tiny inches of profit and they HAVE to keep it going if they have any hope of recouping their investment. Don't talk business if you don't understand how it works.
This is just about right.
As an added bit, with the exception of paying for outside IP licensing, it costs very little to keep a game going these days, once it is up, even with a minimal supporting dev team. Bandwith and hardware costs were the original basis for the industry standard $15/mo sub fee. Now, those particualr expenses are 10% or less then what they were.
I have seen several dev interviews, including one or two here, where the economics of this were thus explained. Almost all of the expenses are "frontloaded" in business terms.
That more games do not close is a poor measure of success or failure.
Like Teala said, there is room for both ThemeParks and Sandbox, problem is that 95% of the dev. money is going to ThemeParks, creating a very skewed experience.
And why is 95% of the dev. money going to ThemeParks?
Because 95% of the player base is comprised of ADHD, mouth breathing, button mashers? Quite naturally the people investing in the genre want to tap into this cash cow.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Like Teala said, there is room for both ThemeParks and Sandbox, problem is that 95% of the dev. money is going to ThemeParks, creating a very skewed experience.
And why is 95% of the dev. money going to ThemeParks?
Because 95% of the player base is comprised of ADHD, mouth breathing, button mashers? Quite naturally the people investing in the genre want to tap into this cash cow.
FINALLY.
We get to the TRUE root of this thread and this issue.
Because you guys are simply better than everyone else.
No, it is the producers faults for not wanting to invest in indies.
Some people seem to believe that indy companies are refusing producers and their money, that is not the case. They are refusing because the producers want to change their game into something else. For example there was an interview with the creators of the recently failed MMO Earthrise, and he said that they tried desperately to find producers to fund them but simply none were interested in a sandbox MMORPG.
And that is where the issue is. No money, no development into sandbox MMOGs and this the issues will never be resolved. However we do get tons of F2P Themeparks...
Here's a question..
What are some of the biggest/most successful indie games and WHY are they big and successful?
The only one I know is CCP. Other indy companies either went bankrupt/on life support or got bought up by bigger companies such as Verant and Origins.
But I see where you are getting at. You want to say that the only one's that are big and successful is the one's that went ThemePark because that is where the money is. But if they changed genre completely and started creating RTS games instead, would that mean that RTS is where to go?
No, there is room for both RTS games and MMORPGs and there is room for both sandbox and themepark. However someone need to take some risk with their money and realise that there is a market for sandbox games. ArcheAge seems to be one, it is atleast a hybrid, so there are some out there but they are very small to super budget ThemeParks with Hollywood actors like SW:TOR.
However is SW:TOR really a good MMORPG? Isn't it more like a single player/co-op diablosque game? So even though it calls itself an MMORPG and it is, or might, make money it is not an MMORPG. It does not play like one, at all.
Like Teala said, there is room for both ThemeParks and Sandbox, problem is that 95% of the dev. money is going to ThemeParks, creating a very skewed experience.
And why is 95% of the dev. money going to ThemeParks?
Because 95% of the player base is comprised of ADHD, mouth breathing, button mashers? Quite naturally the people investing in the genre want to tap into this cash cow.
So you are different than 95% of the player base and want a job in a game world instead of having short period of fun from an entertainment product as everybody else.
There is no reason developers should chase a much smaller market when their products are used and appreciated by a much smaller number of players.
Well technically out of all the players who play mmorpgs only a small number, relatively, are saying these things
And that is why they are garbage. Too many new school players that have never tried, or never got the chance to experience what made them great and a different genre from...well, any other gaming genre. Nor do they seem to care to.
Back in my day we had to walk to school in the snow, up hill both ways!
Now all these young whippersnapper with their Elvis and greaser hair cuts... why, these kids are ruining everything!
*yes, I'm refering to your argument as the - old-man who can't understand change "back in my day" argument
Whatever you say. But if your still playing MMO's 10 years from now..it will be YOU trying to explain what MMO's once were as you watch them evolve into something else you may or may not like. If they went to sandboxes again with longer journey's (What MMO's were meant for, NOT destination "end game"), etc. I am willing to bet you will be displeased and endlessly debating with the new players of that generation in the future that had never played your precious WoW, etc and there for had no basis for comparison nor idea what made them great to you..that no longer exists in this new era.
For some of us, "ten years from now" has come and gone, yet we aren't jaded and disgruntled. While you may be cane-waggling and talking about how things used to be in the old days, some of us see a wider range of choices with more options to fit our playstyles.
Man I'd love to have some of whatever you're on. There's a lot of things that can be said about modern MMOs but "wider range of choices" is not remotely one of them.
It seems that way to you because you have narrowed your subjective view of what an MMO should be rather than expanded it to include everything an MMO has become.
You mean the endless supply of hamster wheel linear end game grinds? Yeah...great stuff indeed.
And as for you jaded and disgruntled comment...although yes...some of it is due to the sad route I feel MMORPG's have taken..and seems many others feel as well if you read the posts...the majority of that feeling is more the cesspool community they have spawned...including these forums.
And it's a two way road about a narrowed and subjective view. Because you and your other pals with the same mindset fail to see what features from the early games could be incorporated to make the newer ones better they haven't used. Such as open worlds without instances and quests...or at least quests without big ridiculous ?'s over NPC's heads...let them be discovered. And without linear gameplay funneling you to each quest hub with in-game GPS that leaves exploration out of the equation. Add the meaningful crafting with items that degrade to create the feel of some sort of useful economy rather than crafting being useless and a waste of gameplay and space due to under use because you get better gear from mobs and raids that people can flood the market with and inflate the economy to ridiculous extremes (And gold farmers flourish due to) because there is no BoE. The list could go on, but why bother... it is a never ending argument that will have no winner. Just further needless bickering, and you just fail to see it, or don't want to see it because it isn't what you want.
Like Teala said, there is room for both ThemeParks and Sandbox, problem is that 95% of the dev. money is going to ThemeParks, creating a very skewed experience.
And why is 95% of the dev. money going to ThemeParks?
Because 95% of the player base is comprised of ADHD, mouth breathing, button mashers? Quite naturally the people investing in the genre want to tap into this cash cow.
So you are different than 95% of the player base and want a job in a game world instead of having short period of fun from an entertainment product as everybody else.
There is no reason developers should chase a much smaller market when their products are used and appreciated by a much smaller number of players.
Seems you are looking for console games if you want short periods of fun....or WoW...or any after it that claims to be an MMORPG. It's why they (Were at one time atleast...sadly) different genres.
What are some of the biggest/most successful indie games and WHY are they big and successful?
But I see where you are getting at. You want to say that the only one's that are big and successful is the one's that went ThemePark because that is where the money is.
No that's not where I am going at all.
Indie devs need to make games within their skill level and budget.
Start small, do it well, build from there. Like CCP did.
The real problem is US - the players, we won't accept a small indie game for what it is.
If it doesn't have every feature we've ever wanted AT LAUNCH and it all works, we bail.
DF, MO.. too ambitious, too big, not well done. Sandboxers bail.
They try and make em big and have all the features because we, the players, are spoiled.
Perfect sandbox with FFA PvP and full loot and a great crafting system... but oh NO it doesn't have housing and naval battles and siege warefare at launch- failure game f2p in 6 months.
Like Teala said, there is room for both ThemeParks and Sandbox, problem is that 95% of the dev. money is going to ThemeParks, creating a very skewed experience.
And why is 95% of the dev. money going to ThemeParks?
Because 95% of the player base is comprised of ADHD, mouth breathing, button mashers? Quite naturally the people investing in the genre want to tap into this cash cow.
FINALLY.
We get to the TRUE root of this thread and this issue.
Because you guys are simply better than everyone else.
Thank you.
Funnily enough I don't see a great deal of refutation in your post there. It is quite clear why 95% (in your words) of the money invested in mmorpgs goes on themeparks and it has fuck all to do with overall quality of the games in question. If you can turn out the same old shit with flashing lights and go faster stripes and people lap it up, you do exactly that.
Games are being dumbed down, not due to them not having long ass grinds, not due to them not having death penalties or nine hour respawns. The are primarily being dumbed down because 99% of games are simply piss poor reskins of last years big title with a few more single player features crammed in. That people are still falling for it is amazing (well not really).
It would be nice to think that the MMORPG genre has not declined, that it is evolving into a more RTS/FPS/Action orientated game type. But the reality is that for the main part that is not the case. One or two titles may be starting to move that way, but in general most of it is mindless pap. So yes it is safe to say the genre is in decline.
Btw who are "you guys", some kind of online 1%?
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Like Teala said, there is room for both ThemeParks and Sandbox, problem is that 95% of the dev. money is going to ThemeParks, creating a very skewed experience.
And why is 95% of the dev. money going to ThemeParks?
Because 95% of the player base is comprised of ADHD, mouth breathing, button mashers? Quite naturally the people investing in the genre want to tap into this cash cow.
So you are different than 95% of the player base and want a job in a game world instead of having short period of fun from an entertainment product as everybody else.
There is no reason developers should chase a much smaller market when their products are used and appreciated by a much smaller number of players.
Well, it comes down to the devs all chasing the "big numbers".
EvE has been very successful and profitable up to the present, and has only 400-450k players. Yet, over the years they have sold at least a million "boxes", and it could be twice that or more.
At the time of the NGE, SWG had sold over a million boxes (original game and JTL), according to SOE's own press announcement, and had paid for itself twice over by then, according to some reliable estimates (which co-incedentally was one reason they were not afraid to trash that whole game in the attempt for more subs - they had already made their money on it). That game topped out at 350k subs at one point, with a steady number at 200k, all paying $15/mo.
So how big is big enough for the corporate devs that dominate the industry now?
A few hundred K is/was plenty of subs for CCP but not enough for SOE.
Personally, if more devs were satified with singles and doubles, instead of trying for a grand slam all the time (if you will pardon the baseball comparison) and being satisfied with that, there would be a lot more appitite for "risk" in the MMO market, and more things besides one "clone" after the next would be coming out of the big software houses....
Like Teala said, there is room for both ThemeParks and Sandbox, problem is that 95% of the dev. money is going to ThemeParks, creating a very skewed experience.
And why is 95% of the dev. money going to ThemeParks?
Because 95% of the player base is comprised of ADHD, mouth breathing, button mashers? Quite naturally the people investing in the genre want to tap into this cash cow.
FINALLY.
We get to the TRUE root of this thread and this issue.
Because you guys are simply better than everyone else.
Thank you.
Funnily enough I don't see a great deal of refutation in your post there. It is quite clear why 95% (in your words) of the money invested in mmorpgs goes on themeparks and it has fuck all to do with overall quality of the games in question. If you can turn out the same old shit with flashing lights and go faster stripes and people lap it up, you do exactly that.
Games are being dumbed down, not due to them not having long ass grinds, not due to them not having death penalties or nine hour respawns. The are primarily being dumbed down because 99% of games are simply piss poor reskins of last years big title with a few more single player features crammed in. That people are still falling for it is amazing (well not really).
It would be nice to think that the MMORPG genre has not declined, that it is evolving into a more RTS/FPS/Action orientated game type. But the reality is that for the main part that is not the case. One or two titles may be starting to move that way, but in general most of it is mindless pap. So yes it is safe to say the genre is in decline.
Comments
Since we can use old and tired analogies....and speak for millions of gamers....
What if Vanilla ice cream is all you have ever had (newer players, aka WoW), and whenever you tried anything else it was a crappy low-fat vanilla substitute that was trying to be vanilla...Yeah you wouldn't like it....Now say someone offered you vanilla/chocolate twist ice cream that was quality ice cream (a hybrid system), you may like it and decide it is better than your plain old vanilla....Then I come along and say "Hey, you liked twist, try this chocolate!" (sandbox system)...Given that this was AAA chocolate, some of the people that like twist, may decide they like the chocolate more than the other two....
The problem is, for the last 5-8 years or more (I think over 10, and not even focusing on WoW, as WoW was a pumped up version of aspects EQ was adding in its later glory years with instancing and such) all people have been trying to do is make vanilla ice cream with a twist, and anyone that has tried to make twist or chocolate for the most part has given you a melted ice cream cone topped with bugs....Everyone wanted to be the next WoW for profit, thinking they could get there by making the same game with sprinkles or nuts on top of the vanilla ice cream....
People like to dismiss twist and chocolate, but what was the last AAA twist/chocolate fantasy game? Developers have had blinders on, and say what you want, and how they know what makes money, but I submit, they know jack crap, because 90% of these offering that were P2P, have had to change their system and redo their MMO due to it failing....Real innovation has been dead for 5-8 years+ imo...
Despite Skyrim not being an mmo, it wouldn't of sold all those copies, if people were not open to the hybrid type of play it was offering...You don't have to try to make Skyrim a mmo, but it would be nice if someone made something other than vanilla ice cream the past 5-8 years....I think it is happening now, TSW/AA (love them or hate them, they are trying to bring some twist to people)...Even if I don't like them, I hope they do well, mmos have been pretty stagnant imo. I am tired of melted crap with bugs in it....
At least with movies, Indie companies can make good movies, but Indie video game companies that have good ideas or will take chances, can't seem to make a game without too many bugs or broken features.
And why is 95% of the dev. money going to ThemeParks?
So it's the fault of indie devs for being bad?
Ok.....so you played UO...good for you. Then my last post is meaningless for you isn't it. Probably why you found EQ boring...it didn't have, or at least didn't have enough PvP to satisfy your lust for it. Although you seem to enjoy forum PvP thoroughly like the many other "usual suspects" I can't name directly or get banned.
Probably also why you like the current string of MMO's. Almost all incorporate PvP, and are fast paced. It's what you like...then fine. But because I like features that don't incorporate that stuff doesn't mean it's wrong. But you, and others like you constantly troll these forums to forum PvP and tell people like me how wrong we are and how the game types we enjoy would never work. Selfish and greedy people who want EVERY game to meet their desires, and no one can have something otherwise or even state what we like here without being constantly hassled.
Because that is where the investors believe all the profit is.
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It seems that way to you because you have narrowed your subjective view of what an MMO should be rather than expanded it to include everything an MMO has become.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
That was my mistake, I did mean the original nintendo which came out a good many years after the atari 2600, but even there it took a few years to build up a solid following before it exploded....
On top of that, the vast majority of people making titles for the nintendo were either in Japan or Nintendo itself until much later....
When you spend 100 million dollars on an MMO, and another 20 million in marketing, trying to be the next WoW killer, and you end up with 20-40k subscribers at the end of your 6th month (much less than most pre WoW MMOs) you might still be running but you are by no means a success. Usually at that point they're making tiny inches of profit and they HAVE to keep it going if they have any hope of recouping their investment. Don't talk business if you don't understand how it works.
That's wrong too, unless you are talking about what most of the people in this thread are doing?
Is it better to tell people that they are simple minded morons because they like Themepark games?
Actually I'm one of the folks who thought UO: Renaissance was the golden age of MMORPG gaming.
I loved the Trammel/Felucca split.
What I miss about the old days is the games were much more social outside of raids and dungeons. I know that some of the reason was downtime and or challenge and that does not fly anymore it seems. This does not take away the fact that social in the outdoor enviroment is gone for the most part as everyone does the solo thing anymore.
The best game in the old days for social and outdoor enviroment IMHO was SWG. IF only they could have built upon what the core of the game was and not revamp it. I do look forward to GW2 for it seems to try and bring back outdoor fun. I'm also interested in Archage though I still have my doubts about it.
No, it is the producers faults for not wanting to invest in indies.
Some people seem to believe that indy companies are refusing producers and their money, that is not the case. They are refusing because the producers want to change their game into something else. For example there was an interview with the creators of the recently failed MMO Earthrise, and he said that they tried desperately to find producers to fund them but simply none were interested in a sandbox MMORPG.
And that is where the issue is. No money, no development into sandbox MMOGs and this the issues will never be resolved. However we do get tons of F2P Themeparks...
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Yep. I guess so.
Here's a question..
What are some of the biggest/most successful indie games and WHY are they big and successful?
This is just about right.
As an added bit, with the exception of paying for outside IP licensing, it costs very little to keep a game going these days, once it is up, even with a minimal supporting dev team. Bandwith and hardware costs were the original basis for the industry standard $15/mo sub fee. Now, those particualr expenses are 10% or less then what they were.
I have seen several dev interviews, including one or two here, where the economics of this were thus explained. Almost all of the expenses are "frontloaded" in business terms.
That more games do not close is a poor measure of success or failure.
Because 95% of the player base is comprised of ADHD, mouth breathing, button mashers? Quite naturally the people investing in the genre want to tap into this cash cow.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
FINALLY.
We get to the TRUE root of this thread and this issue.
Because you guys are simply better than everyone else.
Thank you.
The only one I know is CCP. Other indy companies either went bankrupt/on life support or got bought up by bigger companies such as Verant and Origins.
But I see where you are getting at. You want to say that the only one's that are big and successful is the one's that went ThemePark because that is where the money is. But if they changed genre completely and started creating RTS games instead, would that mean that RTS is where to go?
No, there is room for both RTS games and MMORPGs and there is room for both sandbox and themepark. However someone need to take some risk with their money and realise that there is a market for sandbox games. ArcheAge seems to be one, it is atleast a hybrid, so there are some out there but they are very small to super budget ThemeParks with Hollywood actors like SW:TOR.
However is SW:TOR really a good MMORPG? Isn't it more like a single player/co-op diablosque game? So even though it calls itself an MMORPG and it is, or might, make money it is not an MMORPG. It does not play like one, at all.
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So you are different than 95% of the player base and want a job in a game world instead of having short period of fun from an entertainment product as everybody else.
There is no reason developers should chase a much smaller market when their products are used and appreciated by a much smaller number of players.
You mean the endless supply of hamster wheel linear end game grinds? Yeah...great stuff indeed.
And as for you jaded and disgruntled comment...although yes...some of it is due to the sad route I feel MMORPG's have taken..and seems many others feel as well if you read the posts...the majority of that feeling is more the cesspool community they have spawned...including these forums.
And it's a two way road about a narrowed and subjective view. Because you and your other pals with the same mindset fail to see what features from the early games could be incorporated to make the newer ones better they haven't used. Such as open worlds without instances and quests...or at least quests without big ridiculous ?'s over NPC's heads...let them be discovered. And without linear gameplay funneling you to each quest hub with in-game GPS that leaves exploration out of the equation. Add the meaningful crafting with items that degrade to create the feel of some sort of useful economy rather than crafting being useless and a waste of gameplay and space due to under use because you get better gear from mobs and raids that people can flood the market with and inflate the economy to ridiculous extremes (And gold farmers flourish due to) because there is no BoE. The list could go on, but why bother... it is a never ending argument that will have no winner. Just further needless bickering, and you just fail to see it, or don't want to see it because it isn't what you want.
Seems you are looking for console games if you want short periods of fun....or WoW...or any after it that claims to be an MMORPG. It's why they (Were at one time atleast...sadly) different genres.
No that's not where I am going at all.
Indie devs need to make games within their skill level and budget.
Start small, do it well, build from there. Like CCP did.
The real problem is US - the players, we won't accept a small indie game for what it is.
If it doesn't have every feature we've ever wanted AT LAUNCH and it all works, we bail.
DF, MO.. too ambitious, too big, not well done. Sandboxers bail.
They try and make em big and have all the features because we, the players, are spoiled.
Perfect sandbox with FFA PvP and full loot and a great crafting system... but oh NO it doesn't have housing and naval battles and siege warefare at launch- failure game f2p in 6 months.
That's our attitude.
Funnily enough I don't see a great deal of refutation in your post there. It is quite clear why 95% (in your words) of the money invested in mmorpgs goes on themeparks and it has fuck all to do with overall quality of the games in question. If you can turn out the same old shit with flashing lights and go faster stripes and people lap it up, you do exactly that.
Games are being dumbed down, not due to them not having long ass grinds, not due to them not having death penalties or nine hour respawns. The are primarily being dumbed down because 99% of games are simply piss poor reskins of last years big title with a few more single player features crammed in. That people are still falling for it is amazing (well not really).
It would be nice to think that the MMORPG genre has not declined, that it is evolving into a more RTS/FPS/Action orientated game type. But the reality is that for the main part that is not the case. One or two titles may be starting to move that way, but in general most of it is mindless pap. So yes it is safe to say the genre is in decline.
Btw who are "you guys", some kind of online 1%?
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Well, it comes down to the devs all chasing the "big numbers".
EvE has been very successful and profitable up to the present, and has only 400-450k players. Yet, over the years they have sold at least a million "boxes", and it could be twice that or more.
At the time of the NGE, SWG had sold over a million boxes (original game and JTL), according to SOE's own press announcement, and had paid for itself twice over by then, according to some reliable estimates (which co-incedentally was one reason they were not afraid to trash that whole game in the attempt for more subs - they had already made their money on it). That game topped out at 350k subs at one point, with a steady number at 200k, all paying $15/mo.
So how big is big enough for the corporate devs that dominate the industry now?
A few hundred K is/was plenty of subs for CCP but not enough for SOE.
Personally, if more devs were satified with singles and doubles, instead of trying for a grand slam all the time (if you will pardon the baseball comparison) and being satisfied with that, there would be a lot more appitite for "risk" in the MMO market, and more things besides one "clone" after the next would be coming out of the big software houses....
LOL! I think I am in love.