Why would you even want to try doing the content as a holy trinity built group? The point of the new prof. and combat systems are to get everyone involved in every job so that the gameplay does NOT become static.
My play style lends itself to this type of setup. I love having to move constantly instead of standing in one place for a 30 minute boss fight.
Just watching a couple of the beta dungeon vids gets me really excited because through one of the vids there are not very many mobs to fight but you have to constantly get out of the way of traps that are set in the dungeon. This type of enviroment is much better that just walking down a pristine hallway to the 6 mobs waiting at the door you ahve to go through.
I belive this type of constanly moving and active gameplay will make the experience feel that much more emersive.
What I worry about is that classes that are good at buffing and debuffing will become the next "healer". Meaning that people will feel that certain classes will be required in order to do harder level content.
I want a game where it doesn't matter what class you play, as long as you work together you can run the content.
Every profession can provide an variety of buffs and debuffs. While some professions have more options for this, you can spec any profession into a support heavy role. I believe everyone gets several supportive traits, more than enough support utilities to fill the bar, a group oriented heal, a weapon set / toolkit / attunement geared more towards support, and a support oriented elite skill.
Though I personally think taking a variety of professions will be far more effective than the examples of 5 elementalists for instance just because different professions tend to be better at different support or control roles (like healing, damage mitigation, applying vulnerablity, condition removal, etc.) and it's probably better to have as much of a mix as possible, but I don't think you'll be spending all your time looking for say a Guardian or Elementalist because you HAVE to fill that slot with that profession or you won't succeed.
Just curious, anyone here know which game the Holy Trinity first showed itself in?
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
Just curious, anyone here know which game the Holy Trinity first showed itself in?
Everquest, except back then the holy trinity was not "tank, heal, damage", it specifically referred to the Warrior, Cleric, and Enchanter classes, aka, tank, healer, crowd control.
Just curious, anyone here know which game the Holy Trinity first showed itself in?
Everquest, except back then the holy trinity was not "tank, heal, damage", it specifically referred to the Warrior, Cleric, and Enchanter classes, aka, tank, healer, crowd control.
Thanks, been looking but couldn't find it. Much appreciated.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
Having a "dedicated" healer will probably help, but if that player is trying to focus exclusively on healing and is ignoring most of his weapon skills and not dealing significant damage, then yeah, it's not going to work out.
Tanking, on the other hand... That will never work, and without a tank, having a healer carries much less meaning.
I'm surprised that you don't know that there aren't any 'dedicated' healers. In fact, from what I've seen, the Warrior has as much healing potential as the Guardian. Note that I'm saying healing specifically. Where the Guardian differs from the Warrior is that the Guardian has more crowd control (the Warrior even has condition protection).
This is why they're saying that things are different, and this is what I don't think a lot of people are easily managing to wrap their heads around. And your post is proof of that. It will be based around a loose trinity, but not the holy trinity of prior games. And someone trying to be a 'dedicated healer' instead of contributing with condition protection, damage protection, and crowd control is going to screw over the group.
The design of the game isn't 'soak up damage and let the healer take care of it.' This is what you're not getting. The design of the game is stop the damage before it happens. That's a completely different concept. How do you do this? You stop conditions before they become serious, you use shields to halt damage, you control your foes so that they're not as capable of damaging the correct targets (or any targets).
It's a more strategic and tactical approach. You can't just faceroll and believe that the healer will take care of it all, because you'll die. Simple as that. If you see that a mob is about to release a storm of damage and conditions, and you don't put your shield up as a Warrior (if you have one), and you just keep slashing away, then you have done something wrong, not the healer. That's where this differs.
In a rigid trinity system, it's the role of one type of person to do one type of thing.
In a loose trinity system like the one in Guild Wars 2 (a system I'm innately familiar with, because Champions Online has a very similar system), everyone can do these things. If you're a DPS Warrior who doesn't use his shield because you believe that everything should be down to the tank, then you're a bit of an idiot. If you have a war banner with you as a DPS Warrior, but you don't drop it because you think the water-attuned Elementalist will take care of everything, then you're a bit of an idiot there, too.
See how this works?
In a loose trinity, there's very little differentiation between the classes. Rather than W does X, and Y does Z, and that's that, it's more that W can do X and Z, and Y can do X and Z. Though just because W may be slightly better at X than Y is, it doesn't mean that Y shouldn't be doing it too, because that'll bring about the doom of your group. Now, if you're still with me and you're getting this, let me move onto something else they've said.
You could complete a dungeon with a team of just Warriors, or just Elementalists, or just Engineers.
Think about that.
This is because all classes can help to prevent damage before it occurs. The thing is is that it's a difference between a proactive system and a reactive one. In a reactive system, you just wait until you're half dead, then the healer starts spamming heals on you. That won't work in this game. It doesn't work in Champions Online. It's a proactive system. You need to stop that damage before it hits you. You need to raise your shield, or stand next to someone who has their shield raised.
So no, a dedicated healer won't make things easier. In fact, it would actually make things more difficult. And again, I say this as someone who's familiar with a loose trinity system that has a proactive rather than reactive combat system. If you're not locking down your enemies, and you're letting your enemies half kill you, then you're doing it wrong.
Nice post Dream_Chaser. You make a lot of really good points.
I would argue, though (and I hope this isn't confusing anyone), that the game doesn't really even have a 'loose' trinity. This is part of the problem some people are having with this game. They are trying to force this game's mechanics into the nice little trinity boxed mindset. And, it just doesn't fit very well. Square in a round hole.
Why I say this, is because there really aren't just 3 roles in GW2's combat. You have damage, you have healing support, you have damage mitigation (which you could lump into healing support), you have control, you have movement (ie mesmer portals / curtains, thieve's infiltration arrow), and you also have the whole conditions / boons meta-game that kinda is a hybrid of damage in support just in itself.
The combat revolves more around class / skill synergy and player skill than anything else. For example, you could have a necro doing support, heals, and damage all at the same time. However, that wouldn't necessarily mean you're team would win the fight.
The ways in which each class deals w/ these mechanics is key. You could have 2 guardians who are specced for heavy support, but one could be better at deflecting projectiles while the other could be better at using boons / blocking enemy movement.
- I'm glad you put it into a perspective the trinity mindset can understand, though, as I really think this is one of those games where you have to actually play it to get a decent understanding of how it works.
Dungeons will require more group coordination; not ADD friendly but oh well; hopefully the devs won't change dungeon mechanics just to please the WoW crowd; players expecting to chill standing on the back and spamming abilities and expecting to down a boss without any effort will have a surprise. No more blaming the tank or healer cuz the DPS kids wanted to pull everything and out DPS everyone. I have my vent/teamspeak ready to join my group and /ignore General QQ chat.
love playing a healer, so maybe that makes me a defender of the trinity. as long as i can play a healer in this i'll give it a go. Not too much to ask really is it?
To be honest I think that this trinity is dead talk is just talk. People will still be tanks, healer and DPS and I think the only difference will be that tanks will be able to do some DPS and healing, healers will be able to do some DPS and possibly of-tank and DPS will be able to do some healing and of-tank.
Still they will be tank, dps and healer roles. It's just that people wont be locked into those roles permenantly but rather be more flexible, which is all good.
That's what I was trying to explain, albeit not too successfully.
Champions Online is the same, and I was coining the term 'loose trinity' to help people try to understand that it doesn't work that way. I'm trying to take what they know, and bridge it over to what they're new to. Like I said, I'm extremely familiar with this system, but trying to explain it to someone who's never used a system like this?
To be honest I think that this trinity is dead talk is just talk. People will still be tanks, healer and DPS and I think the only difference will be that tanks will be able to do some DPS and healing, healers will be able to do some DPS and possibly of-tank and DPS will be able to do some healing and of-tank.
Still they will be tank, dps and healer roles. It's just that people wont be locked into those roles permenantly but rather be more flexible, which is all good.
You haven't read a thing, have you?
Because, of course, to make the point I've made before that seems to make people actually engage their thinking boxes...
Team Fortress 2 is a holy trinity game.
Ultima Online is a holy trinity game.
EvE is a holy trinity game.
Guild Wars 2 is a holy trinity game.
Peggle is a holy trinity game.
The only problem here is that none of the above is true.
love playing a healer, so maybe that makes me a defender of the trinity. as long as i can play a healer in this i'll give it a go. Not too much to ask really is it?
Every person has to take one healing spell, which is an area of effect.
Every person can take a few more healing spells, which are area of effect.
Friendliescannot be directly targeted with healing spells.
Everyone is a healer. Everyone isn't a healer.
What does that mean? No dedicated healers. I'm trying to express this... but it's just not getting through.
To be honest I think that this trinity is dead talk is just talk. People will still be tanks, healer and DPS and I think the only difference will be that tanks will be able to do some DPS and healing, healers will be able to do some DPS and possibly of-tank and DPS will be able to do some healing and of-tank.
Still they will be tank, dps and healer roles. It's just that people wont be locked into those roles permenantly but rather be more flexible, which is all good.
It is more like everyone is a hybrid. If you try hard enough, pretty much any game can be broken down into baser components of a tank (higher mitigation), dps, healer, support (support and healer are sometimes the same, sometimes different).
GW2 seems less specialized, more un-trinity like. A lot of people have been toting that as one of the positives. it is kind of funny in a way because I've noticed in most MMOs, the healer class is usually the least populated. That might be why people want to do away with the trinity so they don't have to wait for a healer, but think about it this way. Why is the healer the least populated? Usually from my experience the majority of people don't like to heal. Well now in GW2, everyone pretty much has to heal. So now the majority of players that never liked to heal, have to do some healing.
I've already seen mulitple videos of players not using their self heals or group ones. Sure you can call that person a bad player, but I can understand them not using it because they always chose characters that don't heal at all.
Of course this system really sucks if you're one the people that love to play healers, lol. You might find a more support oriented class to your liking, but odds are, if you're a healer at heart, this game is not for you.
Personally, I'm not sure yet about GW2, some things I really like, some I can't stand, a few things that are really hyped and I have great doubts about. I will probably play it and give it a fair shot, but just dont know. I do know, a couple games i have played without any healer in game, where the healing was just done by using self healing pots, I did not care for at all. Lost a bit of the group dynamic for me.
Yes, I know there is plenty of group tactics in GW2, but I still prefer that extra element of healers!
To be honest I think that this trinity is dead talk is just talk. People will still be tanks, healer and DPS and I think the only difference will be that tanks will be able to do some DPS and healing, healers will be able to do some DPS and possibly of-tank and DPS will be able to do some healing and of-tank.
Still they will be tank, dps and healer roles. It's just that people wont be locked into those roles permenantly but rather be more flexible, which is all good.
You haven't read a thing, have you?
Because, of course, to make the point I've made before that seems to make people actually engage their thinking boxes...
Team Fortress 2 is a holy trinity game.
Ultima Online is a holy trinity game.
EvE is a holy trinity game.
Guild Wars 2 is a holy trinity game.
Peggle is a holy trinity game.
The only problem here is that none of the above is true.
If you read back a bit, you'll find out why.
I have said nothing of the sort. All I am saying is that I believe that there still will be tanks, healers and DPS but they will all have secondary, and maybe tertiary, roles as well. Now if for you that means it is not trinity then great, I am not here to argue semantics. I just believe that in GW 2 you will have some classes which are better at tanking, some better at healing/CC and some better at DPS so I dont believe it will be all that different.
To be honest I think that this trinity is dead talk is just talk. People will still be tanks, healer and DPS and I think the only difference will be that tanks will be able to do some DPS and healing, healers will be able to do some DPS and possibly of-tank and DPS will be able to do some healing and of-tank.
Still they will be tank, dps and healer roles. It's just that people wont be locked into those roles permenantly but rather be more flexible, which is all good.
It is more like everyone is a hybrid. If you try hard enough, pretty much any game can be broken down into baser components of a tank (higher mitigation), dps, healer, support (support and healer are sometimes the same, sometimes different).
GW2 seems less specialized, more un-trinity like. A lot of people have been toting that as one of the positives. it is kind of funny in a way because I've noticed in most MMOs, the healer class is usually the least populated. That might be why people want to do away with the trinity so they don't have to wait for a healer, but think about it this way. Why is the healer the least populated? Usually from my experience the majority of people don't like to heal. Well now in GW2, everyone pretty much has to heal. So now the majority of players that never liked to heal, have to do some healing.
I've already seen mulitple videos of players not using their self heals or group ones. Sure you can call that person a bad player, but I can understand them not using it because they always chose characters that don't heal at all.
Of course this system really sucks if you're one the people that love to play healers, lol. You might find a more support oriented class to your liking, but odds are, if you're a healer at heart, this game is not for you.
Personally, I'm not sure yet about GW2, some things I really like, some I can't stand, a few things that are really hyped and I have great doubts about. I will probably play it and give it a fair shot, but just dont know. I do know, a couple games i have played without any healer in game, where the healing was just done by using self healing pots, I did not care for at all. Lost a bit of the group dynamic for me.
Yes, I know there is plenty of group tactics in GW2, but I still prefer that extra element of healers!
I just have to point out that the part in green just isn't true, at least not in the way being implied.
People will have heals, but this game is much LESS about healing damage as it is about preventing damage from happening in the first place. See a nasty attack coming your way? It's going to generally be better to dodge, throw up a shield, or LOS the attack than to take it and have your heal ready. That's one of the key differences this game that makes the trinity system unnecessary.
Now, as you say, for those who love dedicated healers, this game is probably not for them. There are more support-heavy classes which they may enjoy (placing shields for allies to use, healing turrets, etc.), but it won't be anything like playing a dedicated healer.
To be honest I think that this trinity is dead talk is just talk. People will still be tanks, healer and DPS and I think the only difference will be that tanks will be able to do some DPS and healing, healers will be able to do some DPS and possibly of-tank and DPS will be able to do some healing and of-tank.
Still they will be tank, dps and healer roles. It's just that people wont be locked into those roles permenantly but rather be more flexible, which is all good.
You haven't read a thing, have you?
Because, of course, to make the point I've made before that seems to make people actually engage their thinking boxes...
Team Fortress 2 is a holy trinity game.
Ultima Online is a holy trinity game.
EvE is a holy trinity game.
Guild Wars 2 is a holy trinity game.
Peggle is a holy trinity game.
The only problem here is that none of the above is true.
If you read back a bit, you'll find out why.
I have said nothing of the sort. All I am saying is that I believe that there still will be tanks, healers and DPS but they will all have secondary, and maybe tertiary, roles as well. Now if for you that means it is not trinity then great, I am not here to argue semantics. I just believe that in GW 2 you will have some classes which are better at tanking, some better at healing/CC and some better at DPS so I dont believe it will be all that different.
Have you see what happens to those who tried to tank lol, because in the dungeon vid a guy tried and died in 3 seconds, was amusing.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
I have said nothing of the sort. All I am saying is that I believe that there still will be tanks, healers and DPS but they will all have secondary, and maybe tertiary, roles as well. Now if for you that means it is not trinity then great, I am not here to argue semantics. I just believe that in GW 2 you will have some classes which are better at tanking, some better at healing/CC and some better at DPS so I dont believe it will be all that different.
I'll have to see if i can find it, but there was a video floating around today that comments on a statement made by one of the Anet devs, to the extent that: 'Trying to play this game as a holy trinity may be possible for the easier content, but it will not work for any of the games more difficult content'. This includes dungeons, DEs, and pvp.
Believe what you want, but there is more than enough evidence out there that supports this. I'd suggest watching some of the beta class videos. The most 'tank-like' class is probably the guardian, but if you want the video it plays nothing like a tank at all. The Warrior can take a few hits, but again, it can't stay at the front for too long or it will get rocked.
In fact, in some of the videos they gave the impression that shields may very well be some of the most useless offhands one can bring with them.
The way the game plays currently, you can have someone in the front taking damage, but it's not going to be for very long. The best players are constantly switching who is taking hits, who is recovering / supporting, and who is dealing damage.
To be honest I think that this trinity is dead talk is just talk. People will still be tanks, healer and DPS and I think the only difference will be that tanks will be able to do some DPS and healing, healers will be able to do some DPS and possibly of-tank and DPS will be able to do some healing and of-tank.
Still they will be tank, dps and healer roles. It's just that people wont be locked into those roles permenantly but rather be more flexible, which is all good.
You haven't read a thing, have you?
Because, of course, to make the point I've made before that seems to make people actually engage their thinking boxes...
Team Fortress 2 is a holy trinity game.
Ultima Online is a holy trinity game.
EvE is a holy trinity game.
Guild Wars 2 is a holy trinity game.
Peggle is a holy trinity game.
The only problem here is that none of the above is true.
If you read back a bit, you'll find out why.
I have said nothing of the sort. All I am saying is that I believe that there still will be tanks, healers and DPS but they will all have secondary, and maybe tertiary, roles as well. Now if for you that means it is not trinity then great, I am not here to argue semantics. I just believe that in GW 2 you will have some classes which are better at tanking, some better at healing/CC and some better at DPS so I dont believe it will be all that different.
There are no taunts in GW2, which negates the role of "Tank". Some builds in some professions can provide some additional healing capacity, but we are talking maybe five heals per minute, including two self heals, vs. roughly two self heals per minute that every profession has on their skill bar. Good thing there are no taunts, because there aren't enough heals in the game to keep a single static "tank" alive as the primary focus of enemy damage.
There are no taunts in GW2, which negates the role of "Tank". Some builds in some professions can provide some additional healing capacity, but we are talking maybe five heals per minute, including two self heals, vs. roughly two self heals per minute that every profession has on their skill bar. Good thing there are no taunts, because there aren't enough heals in the game to keep a single static "tank" alive as the primary focus of enemy damage.
Just to put this into perspective. Very few classes have AoE heals (I think only the elementalist, ranger, and engineer do at this time, unless you count the warriors shout heal which is instant and kinda small).
Now, going off a video I saw of the ascalon catacombs, I think the average party member had around ~4-5k health. The AoE heals were healing for around 50 health every second for maybe 10 seconds. That would give a maximum of 500hp on a 60second cooldown. Assuming every party member had one of these, that's a maximum group heal of ~2k hp every minute. That's less than half your life every minute, in addition to your single-target heal.
Obviously this is very rough math, but I think it illustrates the point of just how limited healing is in this game. It's much more adventageous to dodge (makes you immune to all damage while dodging) rather than to try and heal through the damage.
People will get it very fast, i know because i played mmo well before trinity was even a used word, and well before Soe rise the trinity in their awesome design, ye i'm cynical here. But i know for sure, people won't even be aware of the transition, it's like someone playing only football and entering a handball playground and saying " man how will i play with my hand i never did it?", well you just do it, its that stupid. So let people make their delirium tremens about their awesome trinity; let them make their theory crafting using traits or whatever they might see fit, they will forget it sooner than they learned it playing the game.
I haven't played GW2, but lets say the Guardian and Warrior classes have 0 taunts. I'm pretty sure a Trinity group would wipe with just that one skill removal.
There are no taunts in the game.
They also have very specific (and limited) damage reduction abilites, making it very difficult to:
a) keep aggro (especially because the mob AI controls aggro via a very different set of perameters than most games)
I haven't played GW2, but lets say the Guardian and Warrior classes have 0 taunts. I'm pretty sure a Trinity group would wipe with just that one skill removal.
"Taunts" are not necessarily required, it would all depend on the aggro mechanics of the mobs being attacked.
And this is why this game will fail. The people who want to do away with the trinity, want the auto healing found on console FPS. They don't want the healing class eviscerated and the bloody remains draped over the remaining classes. They want healing and healers removed from their game play, as seen on so called "skill based console fps."
All that GW2 system does is alienate and aggravate the support and healer player base. The healers who do buy this game, will wake up and realize that this is not the class they want to play and leave. DPS players, who don't want healers in their game, will not start group healing. They will realize this game has no healer and leave. Tanks will follow healers, and leave.
They Devs will say, "We didn't do what you asked. Why are you leaving?"
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Comments
Why would you even want to try doing the content as a holy trinity built group? The point of the new prof. and combat systems are to get everyone involved in every job so that the gameplay does NOT become static.
My play style lends itself to this type of setup. I love having to move constantly instead of standing in one place for a 30 minute boss fight.
Just watching a couple of the beta dungeon vids gets me really excited because through one of the vids there are not very many mobs to fight but you have to constantly get out of the way of traps that are set in the dungeon. This type of enviroment is much better that just walking down a pristine hallway to the 6 mobs waiting at the door you ahve to go through.
I belive this type of constanly moving and active gameplay will make the experience feel that much more emersive.
Every profession can provide an variety of buffs and debuffs. While some professions have more options for this, you can spec any profession into a support heavy role. I believe everyone gets several supportive traits, more than enough support utilities to fill the bar, a group oriented heal, a weapon set / toolkit / attunement geared more towards support, and a support oriented elite skill.
Though I personally think taking a variety of professions will be far more effective than the examples of 5 elementalists for instance just because different professions tend to be better at different support or control roles (like healing, damage mitigation, applying vulnerablity, condition removal, etc.) and it's probably better to have as much of a mix as possible, but I don't think you'll be spending all your time looking for say a Guardian or Elementalist because you HAVE to fill that slot with that profession or you won't succeed.
Just curious, anyone here know which game the Holy Trinity first showed itself in?
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
Everquest, except back then the holy trinity was not "tank, heal, damage", it specifically referred to the Warrior, Cleric, and Enchanter classes, aka, tank, healer, crowd control.
Thanks, been looking but couldn't find it. Much appreciated.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
I'm surprised that you don't know that there aren't any 'dedicated' healers. In fact, from what I've seen, the Warrior has as much healing potential as the Guardian. Note that I'm saying healing specifically. Where the Guardian differs from the Warrior is that the Guardian has more crowd control (the Warrior even has condition protection).
This is why they're saying that things are different, and this is what I don't think a lot of people are easily managing to wrap their heads around. And your post is proof of that. It will be based around a loose trinity, but not the holy trinity of prior games. And someone trying to be a 'dedicated healer' instead of contributing with condition protection, damage protection, and crowd control is going to screw over the group.
The design of the game isn't 'soak up damage and let the healer take care of it.' This is what you're not getting. The design of the game is stop the damage before it happens. That's a completely different concept. How do you do this? You stop conditions before they become serious, you use shields to halt damage, you control your foes so that they're not as capable of damaging the correct targets (or any targets).
It's a more strategic and tactical approach. You can't just faceroll and believe that the healer will take care of it all, because you'll die. Simple as that. If you see that a mob is about to release a storm of damage and conditions, and you don't put your shield up as a Warrior (if you have one), and you just keep slashing away, then you have done something wrong, not the healer. That's where this differs.
In a rigid trinity system, it's the role of one type of person to do one type of thing.
In a loose trinity system like the one in Guild Wars 2 (a system I'm innately familiar with, because Champions Online has a very similar system), everyone can do these things. If you're a DPS Warrior who doesn't use his shield because you believe that everything should be down to the tank, then you're a bit of an idiot. If you have a war banner with you as a DPS Warrior, but you don't drop it because you think the water-attuned Elementalist will take care of everything, then you're a bit of an idiot there, too.
See how this works?
In a loose trinity, there's very little differentiation between the classes. Rather than W does X, and Y does Z, and that's that, it's more that W can do X and Z, and Y can do X and Z. Though just because W may be slightly better at X than Y is, it doesn't mean that Y shouldn't be doing it too, because that'll bring about the doom of your group. Now, if you're still with me and you're getting this, let me move onto something else they've said.
You could complete a dungeon with a team of just Warriors, or just Elementalists, or just Engineers.
Think about that.
This is because all classes can help to prevent damage before it occurs. The thing is is that it's a difference between a proactive system and a reactive one. In a reactive system, you just wait until you're half dead, then the healer starts spamming heals on you. That won't work in this game. It doesn't work in Champions Online. It's a proactive system. You need to stop that damage before it hits you. You need to raise your shield, or stand next to someone who has their shield raised.
So no, a dedicated healer won't make things easier. In fact, it would actually make things more difficult. And again, I say this as someone who's familiar with a loose trinity system that has a proactive rather than reactive combat system. If you're not locking down your enemies, and you're letting your enemies half kill you, then you're doing it wrong.
Nice post Dream_Chaser. You make a lot of really good points.
I would argue, though (and I hope this isn't confusing anyone), that the game doesn't really even have a 'loose' trinity. This is part of the problem some people are having with this game. They are trying to force this game's mechanics into the nice little trinity boxed mindset. And, it just doesn't fit very well. Square in a round hole.
Why I say this, is because there really aren't just 3 roles in GW2's combat. You have damage, you have healing support, you have damage mitigation (which you could lump into healing support), you have control, you have movement (ie mesmer portals / curtains, thieve's infiltration arrow), and you also have the whole conditions / boons meta-game that kinda is a hybrid of damage in support just in itself.
The combat revolves more around class / skill synergy and player skill than anything else. For example, you could have a necro doing support, heals, and damage all at the same time. However, that wouldn't necessarily mean you're team would win the fight.
The ways in which each class deals w/ these mechanics is key. You could have 2 guardians who are specced for heavy support, but one could be better at deflecting projectiles while the other could be better at using boons / blocking enemy movement.
- I'm glad you put it into a perspective the trinity mindset can understand, though, as I really think this is one of those games where you have to actually play it to get a decent understanding of how it works.
Dungeons will require more group coordination; not ADD friendly but oh well; hopefully the devs won't change dungeon mechanics just to please the WoW crowd; players expecting to chill standing on the back and spamming abilities and expecting to down a boss without any effort will have a surprise. No more blaming the tank or healer cuz the DPS kids wanted to pull everything and out DPS everyone. I have my vent/teamspeak ready to join my group and /ignore General QQ chat.
love playing a healer, so maybe that makes me a defender of the trinity. as long as i can play a healer in this i'll give it a go. Not too much to ask really is it?
To be honest I think that this trinity is dead talk is just talk. People will still be tanks, healer and DPS and I think the only difference will be that tanks will be able to do some DPS and healing, healers will be able to do some DPS and possibly of-tank and DPS will be able to do some healing and of-tank.
Still they will be tank, dps and healer roles. It's just that people wont be locked into those roles permenantly but rather be more flexible, which is all good.
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That's what I was trying to explain, albeit not too successfully.
Champions Online is the same, and I was coining the term 'loose trinity' to help people try to understand that it doesn't work that way. I'm trying to take what they know, and bridge it over to what they're new to. Like I said, I'm extremely familiar with this system, but trying to explain it to someone who's never used a system like this?
ffffff
It's not going to be easy.
You haven't read a thing, have you?
Because, of course, to make the point I've made before that seems to make people actually engage their thinking boxes...
Team Fortress 2 is a holy trinity game.
Ultima Online is a holy trinity game.
EvE is a holy trinity game.
Guild Wars 2 is a holy trinity game.
Peggle is a holy trinity game.
The only problem here is that none of the above is true.
If you read back a bit, you'll find out why.
Every person has to take one healing spell, which is an area of effect.
Every person can take a few more healing spells, which are area of effect.
Friendlies cannot be directly targeted with healing spells.
Everyone is a healer. Everyone isn't a healer.
What does that mean? No dedicated healers. I'm trying to express this... but it's just not getting through.
Don't believe the hype.
It is more like everyone is a hybrid. If you try hard enough, pretty much any game can be broken down into baser components of a tank (higher mitigation), dps, healer, support (support and healer are sometimes the same, sometimes different).
GW2 seems less specialized, more un-trinity like. A lot of people have been toting that as one of the positives. it is kind of funny in a way because I've noticed in most MMOs, the healer class is usually the least populated. That might be why people want to do away with the trinity so they don't have to wait for a healer, but think about it this way. Why is the healer the least populated? Usually from my experience the majority of people don't like to heal. Well now in GW2, everyone pretty much has to heal. So now the majority of players that never liked to heal, have to do some healing.
I've already seen mulitple videos of players not using their self heals or group ones. Sure you can call that person a bad player, but I can understand them not using it because they always chose characters that don't heal at all.
Of course this system really sucks if you're one the people that love to play healers, lol. You might find a more support oriented class to your liking, but odds are, if you're a healer at heart, this game is not for you.
Personally, I'm not sure yet about GW2, some things I really like, some I can't stand, a few things that are really hyped and I have great doubts about. I will probably play it and give it a fair shot, but just dont know. I do know, a couple games i have played without any healer in game, where the healing was just done by using self healing pots, I did not care for at all. Lost a bit of the group dynamic for me.
Yes, I know there is plenty of group tactics in GW2, but I still prefer that extra element of healers!
I have said nothing of the sort. All I am saying is that I believe that there still will be tanks, healers and DPS but they will all have secondary, and maybe tertiary, roles as well. Now if for you that means it is not trinity then great, I am not here to argue semantics. I just believe that in GW 2 you will have some classes which are better at tanking, some better at healing/CC and some better at DPS so I dont believe it will be all that different.
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I just have to point out that the part in green just isn't true, at least not in the way being implied.
People will have heals, but this game is much LESS about healing damage as it is about preventing damage from happening in the first place. See a nasty attack coming your way? It's going to generally be better to dodge, throw up a shield, or LOS the attack than to take it and have your heal ready. That's one of the key differences this game that makes the trinity system unnecessary.
Now, as you say, for those who love dedicated healers, this game is probably not for them. There are more support-heavy classes which they may enjoy (placing shields for allies to use, healing turrets, etc.), but it won't be anything like playing a dedicated healer.
Have you see what happens to those who tried to tank lol, because in the dungeon vid a guy tried and died in 3 seconds, was amusing.
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I'll have to see if i can find it, but there was a video floating around today that comments on a statement made by one of the Anet devs, to the extent that: 'Trying to play this game as a holy trinity may be possible for the easier content, but it will not work for any of the games more difficult content'. This includes dungeons, DEs, and pvp.
Believe what you want, but there is more than enough evidence out there that supports this. I'd suggest watching some of the beta class videos. The most 'tank-like' class is probably the guardian, but if you want the video it plays nothing like a tank at all. The Warrior can take a few hits, but again, it can't stay at the front for too long or it will get rocked.
In fact, in some of the videos they gave the impression that shields may very well be some of the most useless offhands one can bring with them.
The way the game plays currently, you can have someone in the front taking damage, but it's not going to be for very long. The best players are constantly switching who is taking hits, who is recovering / supporting, and who is dealing damage.
There are no taunts in GW2, which negates the role of "Tank". Some builds in some professions can provide some additional healing capacity, but we are talking maybe five heals per minute, including two self heals, vs. roughly two self heals per minute that every profession has on their skill bar. Good thing there are no taunts, because there aren't enough heals in the game to keep a single static "tank" alive as the primary focus of enemy damage.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
Just to put this into perspective. Very few classes have AoE heals (I think only the elementalist, ranger, and engineer do at this time, unless you count the warriors shout heal which is instant and kinda small).
Now, going off a video I saw of the ascalon catacombs, I think the average party member had around ~4-5k health. The AoE heals were healing for around 50 health every second for maybe 10 seconds. That would give a maximum of 500hp on a 60second cooldown. Assuming every party member had one of these, that's a maximum group heal of ~2k hp every minute. That's less than half your life every minute, in addition to your single-target heal.
Obviously this is very rough math, but I think it illustrates the point of just how limited healing is in this game. It's much more adventageous to dodge (makes you immune to all damage while dodging) rather than to try and heal through the damage.
People will get it very fast, i know because i played mmo well before trinity was even a used word, and well before Soe rise the trinity in their awesome design, ye i'm cynical here. But i know for sure, people won't even be aware of the transition, it's like someone playing only football and entering a handball playground and saying " man how will i play with my hand i never did it?", well you just do it, its that stupid. So let people make their delirium tremens about their awesome trinity; let them make their theory crafting using traits or whatever they might see fit, they will forget it sooner than they learned it playing the game.
There are no taunts in the game.
They also have very specific (and limited) damage reduction abilites, making it very difficult to:
a) keep aggro (especially because the mob AI controls aggro via a very different set of perameters than most games)
b) stay alive on the front lines
"Taunts" are not necessarily required, it would all depend on the aggro mechanics of the mobs being attacked.
And this is why this game will fail. The people who want to do away with the trinity, want the auto healing found on console FPS. They don't want the healing class eviscerated and the bloody remains draped over the remaining classes. They want healing and healers removed from their game play, as seen on so called "skill based console fps."
All that GW2 system does is alienate and aggravate the support and healer player base. The healers who do buy this game, will wake up and realize that this is not the class they want to play and leave. DPS players, who don't want healers in their game, will not start group healing. They will realize this game has no healer and leave. Tanks will follow healers, and leave.
They Devs will say, "We didn't do what you asked. Why are you leaving?"
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As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.