i don't think it will require tanks. just a very mobile team. it looks to me like anet has tried to let you group with who you want. so, as you said, a bunch of necros can do this or a bunch of thieves. but they'll just need to work together, support each other and most importantly: be mobile.
the amount of videos where people aren't doing much rolling shows this mechanic hasn't yet infiltrated unconscious gaming. but it will. and when that happens, i think anet's vision will be perfectly clear.
they're not encouraging sneaky ways to become a trinity.
they're encouraging mobile and dynamic combat.
and that has more wow to me than WOW.
We were actually talking about GW1. Sorry for going a bit offtopic. But you're right, GW2 will not require tanks. In fact, it will be impossible due to a lack of targeted heals and everybody being about equally resilient. Anybody getting focus-fired will die very quickly. Also, since there is no body blocking, it's not really possible to force enemies to attack you.
Having a "dedicated" healer will probably help, but if that player is trying to focus exclusively on healing and is ignoring most of his weapon skills and not dealing significant damage, then yeah, it's not going to work out.
Tanking, on the other hand... That will never work, and without a tank, having a healer carries much less meaning.
That's what ultimately can break trinity teams down. If Anet makes the small tweak of getting rid of the "aggro" concept it all falls appart.
Exactly, we've gone over this I don't know how many times.
You can't have the trinity in GW2 because you can't control aggro. No aggro control...no trinity combat.
Trinity combat is not something that "just happens" naturally in any game. The game has to be specifically designed for it to work.
I can see a case where a game could have no aggro but there are tanks. Any game with collision detection can allow the tank to stand between the enemy and their fragile friends. That's generally how real combat works as well. I'm not a fan of the trininty anymore, only because of the pain of finding groups, but it doesn't require aggro to work effectively.
Are you positive? Think carefully about playing WoW and imagine doing it without threat tables. How long do you think the average boss encounter would last? Or forget the bosses, just think about the trash. Collision detection would only save you if you can confine every encounter to very small choke points, and the chances of that happening are somewhere between slim and none. Even then, you still can't control the ranged attacks which ignore ZoC, so again, an inevitable party wipe.
Without aggro, *everything* comes tumbling down in seconds with traditional trinity mechanics.
Obviously if the "boss" is much larger than your character, they will get ranged attacks out over you. But that ignores backup tanks that can intercept those missiles.
And if they are the same size but much faster they can get around you if you can't CC them. I just don't hold to the idea that the Trinity requires aggro.
My concern is the fact that I hate the whack a mole style of healing or debuffing party members. If I'm required to do much of that in GW2 it simply won't be as fun as being pure dps or tanking for me. My favorite role in old WOW was as a dps warrior that sometimes had to step in if the tank died so this game has potential.
I won't judge it until I try it, hopefully in a Beta.
I don't know why people have all this hate towards the trinity. It's going to be no more or less challenging either way you go. I've seen comments like "you just like to do {enter playstyle here} to leach" and I find that as naive as people looking at official reviews as gospel.
I personally like healing/supporting in PvP because it's more about group success than personal success - to each their own.
I haven't watched that many videos and I'm curious how it will work in a group without a tank.
In any mmorpg the tank gets aggro and the creature focusses on him while he gets healed.
How does a GW2 creature decide who to attack (aggro)?
What is the dynamic of a group versus creature regarding aggro? Does the creature attack everybody and people need to dodge? Can you get aggro by a certain attack? Do you take turns getting aggro? Do creatures do more ranged attack you can dodge more easily? etc.
Proximity is a big factor, but there is also incoming damage and target preference, which means they may choose a target because they are furthest away, because their profession or for some other unknown factor. What it comes down to is playing odds. You can have a pretty good idea of what a mob will do under a given circumstance, but you can't count on it and you can't taunt them back on course. You just need to react by dodging, CCing or focus firing.
This is the kind of thing that made GW1's combat exciting. Mobs were somewhat unpredictable and you needed to be paying attention to what they were doing, otherwise that monster tangling with your warrior in front of you, is suddenly behind you chasing your monk hither and yon.
It was a long time ago, but I recall my main being a Warrior/Monk, so I neither had to worry about running or being healed, I was able to do both, and was a monster in PVE.
I do recall the mobs switching off more or less randomly at times, but it seemed like every class (I played a Necromancer of some sort) had a means to pick up the new aggro until the focus changed again.
As far as mobs chosing targets in the back, that doesn't seem smart, if I saw a mob coming after me in the back, I'd be sure to kite the heck outta him while my group mates beat the snot out of him (assuming having a running head start meant something)
I still think the mob would have to swtich targets to something he can actually reach, or the idea of smart AI has gone completely out the window.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I don't know why people have all this hate towards the trinity. It's going to be no more or less challenging either way you go. I've seen comments like "you just like to do {enter playstyle here} to leach" and I find that as naive as people looking at official reviews as gospel.
I personally like healing/supporting in PvP because it's more about group success than personal success - to each their own.
The only reason I hate the Trinity and WOW class designs are:
1) Difficulty in finding groups if you aren't a tank or healer. They could address this by finding teh sweet spot of tank/healer to dps ratio. For instance WOW would certainly have lower wait times with 6 mans with 4 dps.
2) Classes aren't equal. It would be better to let people choose the class they like and not be left out of groups because there are already people of that class there. Obviously loot drops would need a new paradignm of classless tokens that allow any class to turn them in for gear. that way having too many of a certain class isn't an issue.
I'm excited to see how GW2 approaches those issues.
I don't know why people have all this hate towards the trinity. It's going to be no more or less challenging either way you go. I've seen comments like "you just like to do {enter playstyle here} to leach" and I find that as naive as people looking at official reviews as gospel.
I personally like healing/supporting in PvP because it's more about group success than personal success - to each their own.
The only reason I hate the Trinity and WOW class designs are:
1) Difficulty in finding groups if you aren't a tank or healer. They could address this by finding teh sweet spot of tank/healer to dps ratio. For instance WOW would certainly have lower wait times with 6 mans with 4 dps.
Yes I expect many groups to do that for GW2. Find have a balance of control/support.
2) Classes aren't equal. It would be better to let people choose the class they like and not be left out of groups because there are already people of that class there. Obviously loot drops would need a new paradignm of classless tokens that allow any class to turn them in for gear. that way having too many of a certain class isn't an issue.
Their is no shared looting system in GW2. Everyone has a seperate roll of the dice and the loot you see is only for you to pick up. Also, you are suppose to get tokens to turn in for the dungeon. I did not see them drop in the dungeons videos I have seen, but their is a vendor to exchange tokens for dungeon gear.
I'm excited to see how GW2 approaches those issues.
And if they are the same size but much faster they can get around you if you can't CC them. I just don't hold to the idea that the Trinity requires aggro.
Most boss encounters in T/H/DPS systems require a real tank. Without a tank you'd wipe fast. With only a DPS warrior as tank you would be in trouble long before you reach a boss that drops anything worth having.
It's not the trinity that requires aggro, it's the boss encounters. They are only doable with a tank, and a good tank is required to have aggro skills. DPS are usually unable to withstand much of a beating.
Yep and i hope it stays impossible because the days of sitting around trying to form a group for content will be officially over and we can all move on with our collective online lives.
Maybe (and this is wishful thinking) the other gaming companies will take note and actually change the games that are out right now or begin to do so on projects just about to be released.
My concern is the fact that I hate the whack a mole style of healing or debuffing party members. If I'm required to do much of that in GW2 it simply won't be as fun as being pure dps or tanking for me. My favorite role in old WOW was as a dps warrior that sometimes had to step in if the tank died so this game has potential.
no chance of whack a mole in GW2, there are no ally targeted skills
Comments
ah, apologies. i missed the tangent.
i'm too excited to read properly.
Obviously if the "boss" is much larger than your character, they will get ranged attacks out over you. But that ignores backup tanks that can intercept those missiles.
And if they are the same size but much faster they can get around you if you can't CC them. I just don't hold to the idea that the Trinity requires aggro.
My concern is the fact that I hate the whack a mole style of healing or debuffing party members. If I'm required to do much of that in GW2 it simply won't be as fun as being pure dps or tanking for me. My favorite role in old WOW was as a dps warrior that sometimes had to step in if the tank died so this game has potential.
I won't judge it until I try it, hopefully in a Beta.
Good luck to all in exploration mode with yout Trinity mindset:)
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I don't know why people have all this hate towards the trinity. It's going to be no more or less challenging either way you go. I've seen comments like "you just like to do {enter playstyle here} to leach" and I find that as naive as people looking at official reviews as gospel.
I personally like healing/supporting in PvP because it's more about group success than personal success - to each their own.
It was a long time ago, but I recall my main being a Warrior/Monk, so I neither had to worry about running or being healed, I was able to do both, and was a monster in PVE.
I do recall the mobs switching off more or less randomly at times, but it seemed like every class (I played a Necromancer of some sort) had a means to pick up the new aggro until the focus changed again.
As far as mobs chosing targets in the back, that doesn't seem smart, if I saw a mob coming after me in the back, I'd be sure to kite the heck outta him while my group mates beat the snot out of him (assuming having a running head start meant something)
I still think the mob would have to swtich targets to something he can actually reach, or the idea of smart AI has gone completely out the window.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The only reason I hate the Trinity and WOW class designs are:
1) Difficulty in finding groups if you aren't a tank or healer. They could address this by finding teh sweet spot of tank/healer to dps ratio. For instance WOW would certainly have lower wait times with 6 mans with 4 dps.
2) Classes aren't equal. It would be better to let people choose the class they like and not be left out of groups because there are already people of that class there. Obviously loot drops would need a new paradignm of classless tokens that allow any class to turn them in for gear. that way having too many of a certain class isn't an issue.
I'm excited to see how GW2 approaches those issues.
Most boss encounters in T/H/DPS systems require a real tank. Without a tank you'd wipe fast. With only a DPS warrior as tank you would be in trouble long before you reach a boss that drops anything worth having.
It's not the trinity that requires aggro, it's the boss encounters. They are only doable with a tank, and a good tank is required to have aggro skills. DPS are usually unable to withstand much of a beating.
Yep and i hope it stays impossible because the days of sitting around trying to form a group for content will be officially over and we can all move on with our collective online lives.
Maybe (and this is wishful thinking) the other gaming companies will take note and actually change the games that are out right now or begin to do so on projects just about to be released.
no chance of whack a mole in GW2, there are no ally targeted skills