Reply to exciting, new, and original thread #344288:
A few MMOs have a story element. If you don't like them, don't play them. MMORPGs don't have to follow your sovereign vision of success - developers have the freedom to reach in other directions and try different things. Isn't 'innovation' one of the key elements you people rail on about? It doesn't happen overnight, so give the genre a few iterations worth of time and do something else.
Play the ones that don't focus on story. There's lots of them too.
You completely missed the point, the OP is saying that story in an MMO gets replaces gameplay, when the story is totally unnessecary to begin with and only does just what you graphed, get more subs at the start of the game and then they decline after the first month cause everyones played the story out already.
Basically hes saying that the core of MMO's (Yes even from developers standpoints) have lost their way. We dont need story to be a main focus because the whole point of an MMO is supposed to be in a massive environment making up your own story.
Also with the comment in red, when was the last Mainstream MMO after Post-BC WoW that DIDNT focus on story????
WAR????
AION????
SWTOR???
Are you beginning to understand now? People get all up in arms and like to go "OOO stop forcing your ideas on devs, stop telling them what to do, you have no proof that your way is right or better so im going to make a snide remark about you."
But what you do have is history, and you can look back and easily say that MMO's were founded on the core idea of living in someone elses universe and making up your story. Unfortunately people like to bat around that with poor rebuttles like yours.
Nothing at all against wow but it have about as well written lore as eq. Which means that any fantasy author that tried to get it published on it's own merits would get thrown out of any good book publishers office.
Sorry, i been playing mmos since 1996, the lore is not much better now if at all. They still have bad reasons to ask us to kill another 10 rats, some games during the years have had btter or worse lore but it have not gone from bad to good, more up and down all the time.
in my opinion in mmorpgs a good gameplay with no story is as bad as a good story with no gameplay. If i have to choose one i choose the 2 combined or nothing at all.... find something else.
If mmorpgs had nothing to do with story then mind as well remove the rpg from the name. Its not coincidence that the best stories in game come from rpgs (see all the good classic rpgs), so in an mmorpg the story should be as important and strong as the gameplay.
The best Dungeon Masters in a pen and paper campaign are the ones that can guide you along in a story while not leading you along as if a rope is tied to you, all the while giving you a large amount of choices on how you want to tackle your objectives.
As far as MMORPG's. Those that string you along from quest to quest (on Rails) are the worst type. Most people don't even read the quests, they treat them as chores that are required to advance. The ones that hide the story in the background and encourage you to find out more about the story without making it a quest objective are the ones that suceed.
EQ had some pretty shallow lore when it was released, but it didn't string you along a path that you didn't want to go on & let you learn the story at your own pace (if you wanted to that is)
Most of those F2P grinders don't really take well to story. Darkfall and Mortal don't either. EVE has a few arcs that expand lore but it isn't really story-based beyond what the players create. I'm guessing that you can inherit Perpetuum from that idea, too.
There's plenty of choice, and if your dream game isn't around, you could wait or design your own fun.
Please look over the graphs again and consider this question: 'Did Khaeros use these graphs as a vanity reply?'
Here's a bonus just for you: I create story in WoW. And it's all with a social community that we have grown through the years. Crazy, huh?
the gameplay, the wars, players made their own stories not the devs. This whole facination with story is ruining todays mmorpgs, less focus on story, less focus on sparkly shiny things, and more focus on gameplay.
I'll bite, with the rise in the popularity of the MMORPG genre, came the increased number of "lesser" gamers. These "lesser" gamers are the need it now types (most of society), composed of but not including the entirety of or limited to kids, bandwagoners (hype followers), people with very little gaming experience, and the generally foolish: examples trolls and fanboys :P
The smaller crowd of let us say pen and paper gamers, or the community who could make their own story and enjoyment a reality, became a minority.
With the influx of the new, the creators were like "oh, now we can make money easily since this new lot is so easy to scam" or "now we must serve this new lot, since its the majority and we won't make money otherwise". Sparkly shiny things released weekly, guided pathways to follow to get the sparkly shiny things, and building a nice big sparkly shining themepark suits these folks well. Most everything else can be dumbed down.
Huge change in community = huge change in gameplay.
I love a good story. Leading a character that I created thru that story in a persistant world is why I play MMORPG's. Sure, gameplay has to be there as well, but without a good story (LotRO, SWTOR) I get bored easily. A good MMORPG has both imo.
Huge change in community = huge change in gameplay.
Not if you create your own guilds and communities within a game, only bringing in people that have proven to you that they are social, group-friendly, and (in my case) roleplayers.
Just because the game has a dungeon finder that allows you to random to max doesn't mean you have to use it to get enjoyment. You just have to seek out your own fun within the game, with people that you want to bring along.
Most of those F2P grinders don't really take well to story. Darkfall and Mortal don't either. EVE has a few arcs that expand lore but it isn't really story-based beyond what the players create. I'm guessing that you can inherit Perpetuum from that idea, too.
There's plenty of choice, and if your dream game isn't around, you could wait or design your own fun.
Please look over the graphs again and consider this question: 'Did Khaeros use these graphs as a vanity reply?'
Here's a bonus just for you: I create story in WoW. And it's all with a social community that we have grown through the years. Crazy, huh?
Yes, and thats great for you that you can make a roleplaying community in WoW, and your right you can roleplay in any game on the market right now simply by using your imagination!
You know what else you can imagine?
The fear when you go into a dungeon and your roleplaying.
even the joy you and your RP group feels from slaying a big monster
You know why? Because MMO's that are story drive are also extremely easy, because story also means catering to single player gamers and making the game linear so you dont ever get too lost or too confused.
Thats the difference right there my friend, in EQ you had to work to get into the pits of a dungeon, you were actually scared when you faced that final boss because you could die, and you wouldnt just get right back up or walk back in 5 minutes.
Your character progressed IN THE GAME!
Thats the point no one is talking about, in all these games the gameplay mechanics worked in a way that you coule roleplay during gameplay and have it be meaningful. Im sure your WoW RP sessions are great for you, a bunch of people standing in a room and doing emotes occasionally, and if thats the kinda RP you Like, stick with WoW man.
But guess what, theres alot of us out there who want gameplay and RP to be back to old school MMO's and actually be in tandem with each other.
In other words, Im going to continue saying what im saying, and I hope others do too, because eventually a company will make a good MMO again, and yes I mean that, not a single GOOD or even decent MMO has come out Post WoW.
O and the comment "make your own" is laughable, do you think everyone that has an opinion on something has the capabilites to make a full fledged MMO??? Yes, your right, theoretically we all could go make an MMO, but instead I think well just sit back and complain until someone hears what were saying, if anything your posts are just muffling what is an actualy worth while cause. And no its not because I think MMO's Suck now, its cause alot of people do, and I think a decent minority is worth hearing out rather than snuffing because they arent going with the norm.
Huge change in community = huge change in gameplay.
Not if you create your own guilds and communities within a game, only bringing in people that have proven to you that they are social, group-friendly, and (in my case) roleplayers.
Just because the game has a dungeon finder that allows you to random to max doesn't mean you have to use it to get enjoyment. You just have to seek out your own fun within the game, with people that you want to bring along.
True, but I was looking at a bigger picture. Gameplay in this sense = what the developers created for you to play. I'm fairly certain there has been a change in what is offered in any given more recent game because of the large audience appeal.
You can still make any game better or worse by choosing who you'll play with, but overall you're still most likely being pushed to play a certain way by the game's feature, which will reflect the developers creating a game for a larger mass than a small number of people like in UO.
Originally posted by stealthbr Originally posted by DannyGlover I think people confuse lore with stories. Lore sets the stage and players make the stories in more sandboxy mmos. Developer created stories like in GW2, TOR, and TSW are cool. But I look at it as a nice bonus feature instead of a cornerstone.
Yet you must also note that stories are a major form of telling a game's lore. I believe every great RPG needs some form of context so that we, the players, can understand, care about, and consequentially immerse ourselves within the worlds crafted by the developers. Yes but what you are describing is the lore of the game. Story is more personal. For example, in SWG they said "here is whats happening in this galaxy right now. Good guys here, bad guys there, neutral guys ober there, this planet has these guys, that planet has this faction.." and so on. Then they say, "no go out there and make your story."
In new mmos its more like, "heres our world and heres your character. This is what your character does in this world. Here is who you'll meet, and how youre going to engage in this conflict."
You may get a couple superficial choices like TOR's wheel or GW2's prerequisite questionnaire. But it boils down to the devs telling your story in their world. It can be fun and entertaining to see how a pre written story like that unfolds, but my preferred mmo story is the one where I make a character in their world and tell my story in it.
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
I prefer games like EQ,AC, or DOAC,where you make your own story..
Sneaking through places like Kael Drakkel or saving someone from death or you being saved yourself.I cant count how many stories Ive told my friends from my adventures in Everquest.
These are the only games that have kept my attention longer than 2 months.They create unique stories that are youre own,not laid out stories that everyone has been and done.
Truth be told I agree with you. The story of each and every mmorpg I played intrigued me and was in there, but not the complete focus likes todays games strive to go. I hate to do this and say this old cliche, but...ah nevermind. Story should be important, but yes, gameplay is the key to immersion and success from my point of view.
It can even be said about world of warcraft, Vaniella world of warcraft never had a story, it was about you choose alliance, you choose horde, and you live in an ever evolving world. THats when WoW was at its best, then expansion after expansion WOW tried to incorporate heavy lore and story while changing the gameplay of WoW and less focus on WoWs gameplay to where we are at today.
No, that cannot be said. WoW has always had a story.
Vanilla WoW was the quiet time that the world shared after WC3tFT.
You can say that is not much of a story, but that is another matter. you said it had 'no' story, and that is false. if you want more reason why it DOES have a story, i would be happy to detail it for you.
Trust me, I played EQ. It wasn't the holy grail of everything either. It was a mess and after Luclin it was even worse.
When you talk about 'good' and 'decent' MMOs, you're half-right. No 'good' GAME has ever been released since Planescape: Torment. Other games are pretty much shit - but they vary on.. well.. shittiness. This includes MMOs, MUDs, the works.
Difficulty can be made by the player. Consider a game like DDO. A fairly 'themepark' game in that there are a lot of attractions (dungeons) for you to experience on your way up. However, running with a full group of newbies or ungeared characters is a very fun endeavor (the Dwarf Fortress definition of fun, of course). Lots of 'Ding!'- the sound made when someone gets turned into a soulstone, not the sound of leveling.
A veteran player that's geared to the hilt and prepared for the dungeon at hand can do record speedclears and powereleveling.
This, oddly enough, can happen in other MMOs with tweaking to things like gear and external sources of difficulty. DDO 'hardcore permadeath' guilds are a prime example, but in WoW, I can lug around a gearscore addon and adjust a team's gear level to make a dungeon challenging. I can also place external limits that the group imposes on itself. Progression still happens. We can take it slow and experience challenge as it comes, gaining experience and gear like normal, but with the journey in focus, we have a lot more fun than pushing a char to max.
Consider PvP too. My community on the server goes cross-faction. I can hold open PvP battles with people that come just for the fun of it, since they know the rewards are very minimal. I don't think I will be using the system to 'arrange' battlegrounds much, but it's an extra new tool I can use to set a battle in more thematic areas, so I have no problem with it.
Sorry, no tavern RP with us, bro, unless it's an off-day and nothing is planned. But if that's the case, I'm usually on these lovely forums anyway!
It sounds like a lot of work and, to you, might not be worth it all, but it is to my community. I often hear a lot of complaints about the linear and themepark nature of the game, and it's certainly true. But what is the definition of sandbox other than carving your own fun out of a loose set of rules?
Make your own fun doesn't mean developing your own game.
Truth be told I agree with you. The story of each and every mmorpg I played intrigued me and was in there, but not the complete focus likes todays games strive to go. I hate to do this and say this old cliche, but...ah nevermind. Story should be important, but yes, gameplay is the key to immersion and success from my point of view.
It can even be said about world of warcraft, Vaniella world of warcraft never had a story, it was about you choose alliance, you choose horde, and you live in an ever evolving world. THats when WoW was at its best, then expansion after expansion WOW tried to incorporate heavy lore and story while changing the gameplay of WoW and less focus on WoWs gameplay to where we are at today.
No, that cannot be said. WoW has always had a story.
Vanilla WoW was the quiet time that the world shared after WC3tFT.
You can say that is not much of a story, but that is another matter. you said it had 'no' story, and that is false. if you want more reason why it DOES have a story, i would be happy to detail it for you.
Your correct, WoW did have story for sure. But its main focus wasnt just on story, its in fact one of the only MMOs (If not only) to play the perfect balance of gameplay in story at the beginning.
See even more Vanilla WoW would be nice, a game that tries to balance the linear with the free roaming, but you just dont see that anymore cause of how corporate the MMO world is now.
The smaller crowd of let us say pen and paper gamers, or the community who could make their own story and enjoyment a reality, became a minority.
There is something pen and paper folks have to remember. Video-games are not pen and paper RPG's, certain expecations are held by video-gamers which are far different than what a P&P fan would feel are important to a game. Where in the P&P world imagination is key, in the video-game world it's visual immersion that takes precedent over that. This is just one example but an important one. It certinaly high-lights the disparity of the two mediums.
While I thought SWG was as Star Warsy of an experience as I could ever hope to have, the case was different for many others, due largely to the open ended, make your way style of game-play. This is far more relatable to a role-player, Video-gamers are more in-tune with iconic presentations, being the hero, saving the princess, being Boba Fett, Legolas...etc... That's how video-games are typically made RPG or otherwise.
Many video-gamers are in new territory when it comes to playing their first MMO. It's no surprise it took a change to story elements and presentation (WOW) to bring many of them into the MMO fold.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Trust me, I played EQ. It wasn't the holy grail of everything either. It was a mess and after Luclin it was even worse.
When you talk about 'good' and 'decent' MMOs, you're half-right. No 'good' GAME has ever been released since Planescape: Torment. Other games are pretty much shit - but they vary on.. well.. shittiness. This includes MMOs, MUDs, the works.
Difficulty can be made by the player. Consider a game like DDO. A fairly 'themepark' game in that there are a lot of attractions (dungeons) for you to experience on your way up. However, running with a full group of newbies or ungeared characters is a very fun endeavor (the Dwarf Fortress definition of fun, of course). Lots of 'Ding!'- the sound made when someone gets turned into a soulstone, not the sound of leveling.
A veteran player that's geared to the hilt and prepared for the dungeon at hand can do record speedclears and powereleveling.
This, oddly enough, can happen in other MMOs with tweaking to things like gear and external sources of difficulty. DDO 'hardcore permadeath' guilds are a prime example, but in WoW, I can lug around a gearscore addon and adjust a team's gear level to make a dungeon challenging. I can also place external limits that the group imposes on itself. Progression still happens. We can take it slow and experience challenge as it comes, gaining experience and gear like normal, but with the journey in focus, we have a lot more fun than pushing a char to max.
Sorry, no tavern RP with us, bro, unless it's an off-day and nothing is planned. But if that's the case, I'm usually on these lovely forums anyway!
It sounds like a lot of work and, to you, might not be worth it all, but it is to my community. I often hear a lot of complaints about the linear and themepark nature of the game, and it's certainly true. But what is the definition of sandbox other than carving your own fun out of a loose set of rules?
Make your own fun doesn't mean developing your own game.
Why even play an MMO then? If you are just always "Making your own fun", then why not just sit down with a pen and paper and write a whole story yourself?
Although that would take alot of work wouldnt it? So why Khaeros if i may ask do we play MMO's then if you can just imagine anything in the real world anyways?
Seriously though, if your just going to make it difficult for yourself by wearing terrible gear, placing loot roll limits, etc.etc.???
The best Dungeon Masters in a pen and paper campaign are the ones that can guide you along in a story while not leading you along as if a rope is tied to you, all the while giving you a large amount of choices on how you want to tackle your objectives.
As far as MMORPG's. Those that string you along from quest to quest (on Rails) are the worst type. Most people don't even read the quests, they treat them as chores that are required to advance. The ones that hide the story in the background and encourage you to find out more about the story without making it a quest objective are the ones that suceed.
EQ had some pretty shallow lore when it was released, but it didn't string you along a path that you didn't want to go on & let you learn the story at your own pace (if you wanted to that is)
The real problem with story in mmorpg's is the mechanics and limitations behind them. Either you have a sandbox with some lore but no story (run around killing things for no reason) or themepark (story on rails with no player input/choices that matter). To your point about Pen n paper rpg's, you have a human telling the story and can react to your choices, changing the story as you go. There's no good mechanics for that, so you create a character and follow a path laid out for you the same as everyone else in themes, or have no story and just random events in sandboxes. Either someone needs to combine them together into a changing, immersive world, or new mechanics need to be developed for strytelling to let players have an impact on the world or twist a plot type random content, or something. Something needs to change in the industry or we will keep being disappointed-no matter which style you prefer, as games have been pretty average to bad lately.
Reply to exciting, new, and original thread #344288:
A few MMOs have a story element. If you don't like them, don't play them. MMORPGs don't have to follow your sovereign vision of success - developers have the freedom to reach in other directions and try different things. Isn't 'innovation' one of the key elements you people rail on about? It doesn't happen overnight, so give the genre a few iterations worth of time and do something else.
Play the ones that don't focus on story. There's lots of them too.
Some forum threads focus on the importance of story to an MMO, if you don't like them then don't click the handily titled link and make asinine comments.
Some forum replies focus on ideas contrary to your own. If you don't like them, don't read or click reply.
It should seem very obvious that the MMORPG genre has taken off since the introduction of story elements. Whether or not people individually enjoy story is sort of irrelevant (and like Khaeros says, those players can obviously find non-story-based MMORPGs to play if they want to encourage the genre away from storylines...but in the meantime there seem to be a lot more players moving things in the other direction.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Truth be told I agree with you. The story of each and every mmorpg I played intrigued me and was in there, but not the complete focus likes todays games strive to go. I hate to do this and say this old cliche, but...ah nevermind. Story should be important, but yes, gameplay is the key to immersion and success from my point of view.
It can even be said about world of warcraft, Vaniella world of warcraft never had a story, it was about you choose alliance, you choose horde, and you live in an ever evolving world. THats when WoW was at its best, then expansion after expansion WOW tried to incorporate heavy lore and story while changing the gameplay of WoW and less focus on WoWs gameplay to where we are at today.
No, that cannot be said. WoW has always had a story.
Vanilla WoW was the quiet time that the world shared after WC3tFT.
You can say that is not much of a story, but that is another matter. you said it had 'no' story, and that is false. if you want more reason why it DOES have a story, i would be happy to detail it for you.
Your correct, WoW did have story for sure. But its main focus wasnt just on story, its in fact one of the only MMOs (If not only) to play the perfect balance of gameplay in story at the beginning.
See even more Vanilla WoW would be nice, a game that tries to balance the linear with the free roaming, but you just dont see that anymore cause of how corporate the MMO world is now.
Why even play an MMO then? If you are just always "Making your own fun", then why not just sit down with a pen and paper and write a whole story yourself?
Although that would take alot of work wouldnt it? So why Khaeros if i may ask do we play MMO's then if you can just imagine anything in the real world anyways?
Seriously though, if your just going to make it difficult for yourself by wearing terrible gear, placing loot roll limits, etc.etc.???
We can't just make a meet to play PnP with the guild. While we are mostly US, we are scattered around quite a bit. The game is an interface that gives us plenty more flexibility. A MUD would do as well, but we quite like our graphical interface (and players also enjoy the game itself - the community isn't a 24/7 roleplay reich). Consider it a preference, I guess.
Also, I've had my share of combat taking forever in pnp. In an interface like an MMO, it's all done by a computer who is much faster than me (and less prone to mistakes). While I loved the concept of turn-based battles, it's nice to do something different.
Have you never goofed off in an MMO by doing something with half your gear or with an absolutely ridiculous strategy or build? I mean, it all stems from there, except we take it to the Serious Business level.
It takes some effort, but it's not like I have to roll dice. The fun outweighs it.
Well, that is one big utopia. Nobody would remember your deeds in classic mmorpg, it is just imagination of people that gives them feeling about being important part of the game. You think people think about you for long time when you slay one dragon or when you do most kills in pvp, hell no they forget you in few sec. To be able to create story that will impact you gaming universe game must be hardcore like eve online and in fact it is the only game where deeds are remembered. And why is that? It is so because you can lose so much in eve and because it is pure sandbox game, one ships is sometimes worth more then 200$ -300$. And when you come with your friends and save your corp in some big fleet battle you are remembered. But to think people admire you in some game like EQ because of your achievements is just imagination and nothing more. So what i remember is good story , graphic, sound and most important is that feeling about being in world of dreams. Players only destroy my gaming expirience and are only good to be killed in pvp
The smaller crowd of let us say pen and paper gamers, or the community who could make their own story and enjoyment a reality, became a minority.
There is something pen and paper folks have to remember. Video-games are not pen and paper RPG's, certain expecations are held by video-gamers which are far different than what a P&P fan would feel are important to a game. Where in the P&P world imagination is key, in the video-game world it's visual immersion that takes precedent over that. This is just one example but an important one. It certinaly high-lights the disparity of the two mediums.
While I thought SWG was as Star Warsy of an experience as I could ever hope to have, the case was different for many others, due largely to the open ended, make your way style of game-play. This is far more relatable to a role-player, Video-gamers are more in-tune with iconic presentations, being the hero, saving the princess, being Boba Fett, Legolas...etc... That's how video-games are typically made RPG or otherwise.
Many video-gamers are in new territory when it comes to playing their first MMO. It's no surprise it took a change to story elements and presentation (WOW) to bring many of them into the MMO fold.
I saw SWG the opposite way. The worlds were amazing and it was fun at first, but there was no reason to do anything. I made a rodian smuggler, but their was nothing to smuggle. I was just a guy running around with a blaster shooting random creatures that were minding theri own business. I tried it for 6 months (did crafting, resource gathering, etc), but didn't pull me in. I felt it needed some type of story element (not what TOR did), or some reason to do anything. Seems like an IP like star wars or lotr need some type connection to the story to make sense of why you are fighting or crafting, etc. And a non-IP game makes more sense for a player driven sandbox-type game (I did like UO a lot at the time it came out). Just my opinion.
Comments
You completely missed the point, the OP is saying that story in an MMO gets replaces gameplay, when the story is totally unnessecary to begin with and only does just what you graphed, get more subs at the start of the game and then they decline after the first month cause everyones played the story out already.
Basically hes saying that the core of MMO's (Yes even from developers standpoints) have lost their way. We dont need story to be a main focus because the whole point of an MMO is supposed to be in a massive environment making up your own story.
Also with the comment in red, when was the last Mainstream MMO after Post-BC WoW that DIDNT focus on story????
WAR????
AION????
SWTOR???
Are you beginning to understand now? People get all up in arms and like to go "OOO stop forcing your ideas on devs, stop telling them what to do, you have no proof that your way is right or better so im going to make a snide remark about you."
But what you do have is history, and you can look back and easily say that MMO's were founded on the core idea of living in someone elses universe and making up your story. Unfortunately people like to bat around that with poor rebuttles like yours.
Nothing at all against wow but it have about as well written lore as eq. Which means that any fantasy author that tried to get it published on it's own merits would get thrown out of any good book publishers office.
Sorry, i been playing mmos since 1996, the lore is not much better now if at all. They still have bad reasons to ask us to kill another 10 rats, some games during the years have had btter or worse lore but it have not gone from bad to good, more up and down all the time.
in my opinion in mmorpgs a good gameplay with no story is as bad as a good story with no gameplay. If i have to choose one i choose the 2 combined or nothing at all.... find something else.
If mmorpgs had nothing to do with story then mind as well remove the rpg from the name. Its not coincidence that the best stories in game come from rpgs (see all the good classic rpgs), so in an mmorpg the story should be as important and strong as the gameplay.
The best Dungeon Masters in a pen and paper campaign are the ones that can guide you along in a story while not leading you along as if a rope is tied to you, all the while giving you a large amount of choices on how you want to tackle your objectives.
As far as MMORPG's. Those that string you along from quest to quest (on Rails) are the worst type. Most people don't even read the quests, they treat them as chores that are required to advance. The ones that hide the story in the background and encourage you to find out more about the story without making it a quest objective are the ones that suceed.
EQ had some pretty shallow lore when it was released, but it didn't string you along a path that you didn't want to go on & let you learn the story at your own pace (if you wanted to that is)
Most of those F2P grinders don't really take well to story. Darkfall and Mortal don't either. EVE has a few arcs that expand lore but it isn't really story-based beyond what the players create. I'm guessing that you can inherit Perpetuum from that idea, too.
There's plenty of choice, and if your dream game isn't around, you could wait or design your own fun.
Please look over the graphs again and consider this question: 'Did Khaeros use these graphs as a vanity reply?'
Here's a bonus just for you: I create story in WoW. And it's all with a social community that we have grown through the years. Crazy, huh?
I'll bite, with the rise in the popularity of the MMORPG genre, came the increased number of "lesser" gamers. These "lesser" gamers are the need it now types (most of society), composed of but not including the entirety of or limited to kids, bandwagoners (hype followers), people with very little gaming experience, and the generally foolish: examples trolls and fanboys :P
The smaller crowd of let us say pen and paper gamers, or the community who could make their own story and enjoyment a reality, became a minority.
With the influx of the new, the creators were like "oh, now we can make money easily since this new lot is so easy to scam" or "now we must serve this new lot, since its the majority and we won't make money otherwise". Sparkly shiny things released weekly, guided pathways to follow to get the sparkly shiny things, and building a nice big sparkly shining themepark suits these folks well. Most everything else can be dumbed down.
Huge change in community = huge change in gameplay.
Oh ya, since I didn't outright state it. Story = the most recent thing to jump onto and promote in your game
I love a good story. Leading a character that I created thru that story in a persistant world is why I play MMORPG's. Sure, gameplay has to be there as well, but without a good story (LotRO, SWTOR) I get bored easily. A good MMORPG has both imo.
Not if you create your own guilds and communities within a game, only bringing in people that have proven to you that they are social, group-friendly, and (in my case) roleplayers.
Just because the game has a dungeon finder that allows you to random to max doesn't mean you have to use it to get enjoyment. You just have to seek out your own fun within the game, with people that you want to bring along.
Yes, and thats great for you that you can make a roleplaying community in WoW, and your right you can roleplay in any game on the market right now simply by using your imagination!
You know what else you can imagine?
The fear when you go into a dungeon and your roleplaying.
even the joy you and your RP group feels from slaying a big monster
You know why? Because MMO's that are story drive are also extremely easy, because story also means catering to single player gamers and making the game linear so you dont ever get too lost or too confused.
Thats the difference right there my friend, in EQ you had to work to get into the pits of a dungeon, you were actually scared when you faced that final boss because you could die, and you wouldnt just get right back up or walk back in 5 minutes.
Your character progressed IN THE GAME!
Thats the point no one is talking about, in all these games the gameplay mechanics worked in a way that you coule roleplay during gameplay and have it be meaningful. Im sure your WoW RP sessions are great for you, a bunch of people standing in a room and doing emotes occasionally, and if thats the kinda RP you Like, stick with WoW man.
But guess what, theres alot of us out there who want gameplay and RP to be back to old school MMO's and actually be in tandem with each other.
In other words, Im going to continue saying what im saying, and I hope others do too, because eventually a company will make a good MMO again, and yes I mean that, not a single GOOD or even decent MMO has come out Post WoW.
O and the comment "make your own" is laughable, do you think everyone that has an opinion on something has the capabilites to make a full fledged MMO??? Yes, your right, theoretically we all could go make an MMO, but instead I think well just sit back and complain until someone hears what were saying, if anything your posts are just muffling what is an actualy worth while cause. And no its not because I think MMO's Suck now, its cause alot of people do, and I think a decent minority is worth hearing out rather than snuffing because they arent going with the norm.
True, but I was looking at a bigger picture. Gameplay in this sense = what the developers created for you to play. I'm fairly certain there has been a change in what is offered in any given more recent game because of the large audience appeal.
You can still make any game better or worse by choosing who you'll play with, but overall you're still most likely being pushed to play a certain way by the game's feature, which will reflect the developers creating a game for a larger mass than a small number of people like in UO.
Yes but what you are describing is the lore of the game. Story is more personal. For example, in SWG they said "here is whats happening in this galaxy right now. Good guys here, bad guys there, neutral guys ober there, this planet has these guys, that planet has this faction.." and so on. Then they say, "no go out there and make your story."
In new mmos its more like, "heres our world and heres your character. This is what your character does in this world. Here is who you'll meet, and how youre going to engage in this conflict."
You may get a couple superficial choices like TOR's wheel or GW2's prerequisite questionnaire. But it boils down to the devs telling your story in their world. It can be fun and entertaining to see how a pre written story like that unfolds, but my preferred mmo story is the one where I make a character in their world and tell my story in it.
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
I prefer to have a good story over a bad one.
Without story there is no lore.
Without lore there are no quests or characters.
Without characters you can interact with and no backstory.. you have SECOND LIFE!
lolwut??
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
I agree with OP.
I prefer games like EQ,AC, or DOAC,where you make your own story..
Sneaking through places like Kael Drakkel or saving someone from death or you being saved yourself.I cant count how many stories Ive told my friends from my adventures in Everquest.
These are the only games that have kept my attention longer than 2 months.They create unique stories that are youre own,not laid out stories that everyone has been and done.
No, that cannot be said. WoW has always had a story.
Vanilla WoW was the quiet time that the world shared after WC3tFT.
You can say that is not much of a story, but that is another matter. you said it had 'no' story, and that is false. if you want more reason why it DOES have a story, i would be happy to detail it for you.
Trust me, I played EQ. It wasn't the holy grail of everything either. It was a mess and after Luclin it was even worse.
When you talk about 'good' and 'decent' MMOs, you're half-right. No 'good' GAME has ever been released since Planescape: Torment. Other games are pretty much shit - but they vary on.. well.. shittiness. This includes MMOs, MUDs, the works.
Difficulty can be made by the player. Consider a game like DDO. A fairly 'themepark' game in that there are a lot of attractions (dungeons) for you to experience on your way up. However, running with a full group of newbies or ungeared characters is a very fun endeavor (the Dwarf Fortress definition of fun, of course). Lots of 'Ding!'- the sound made when someone gets turned into a soulstone, not the sound of leveling.
A veteran player that's geared to the hilt and prepared for the dungeon at hand can do record speedclears and powereleveling.
This, oddly enough, can happen in other MMOs with tweaking to things like gear and external sources of difficulty. DDO 'hardcore permadeath' guilds are a prime example, but in WoW, I can lug around a gearscore addon and adjust a team's gear level to make a dungeon challenging. I can also place external limits that the group imposes on itself. Progression still happens. We can take it slow and experience challenge as it comes, gaining experience and gear like normal, but with the journey in focus, we have a lot more fun than pushing a char to max.
Consider PvP too. My community on the server goes cross-faction. I can hold open PvP battles with people that come just for the fun of it, since they know the rewards are very minimal. I don't think I will be using the system to 'arrange' battlegrounds much, but it's an extra new tool I can use to set a battle in more thematic areas, so I have no problem with it.
Sorry, no tavern RP with us, bro, unless it's an off-day and nothing is planned. But if that's the case, I'm usually on these lovely forums anyway!
It sounds like a lot of work and, to you, might not be worth it all, but it is to my community. I often hear a lot of complaints about the linear and themepark nature of the game, and it's certainly true. But what is the definition of sandbox other than carving your own fun out of a loose set of rules?
Make your own fun doesn't mean developing your own game.
Your correct, WoW did have story for sure. But its main focus wasnt just on story, its in fact one of the only MMOs (If not only) to play the perfect balance of gameplay in story at the beginning.
See even more Vanilla WoW would be nice, a game that tries to balance the linear with the free roaming, but you just dont see that anymore cause of how corporate the MMO world is now.
There is something pen and paper folks have to remember. Video-games are not pen and paper RPG's, certain expecations are held by video-gamers which are far different than what a P&P fan would feel are important to a game. Where in the P&P world imagination is key, in the video-game world it's visual immersion that takes precedent over that. This is just one example but an important one. It certinaly high-lights the disparity of the two mediums.
While I thought SWG was as Star Warsy of an experience as I could ever hope to have, the case was different for many others, due largely to the open ended, make your way style of game-play. This is far more relatable to a role-player, Video-gamers are more in-tune with iconic presentations, being the hero, saving the princess, being Boba Fett, Legolas...etc... That's how video-games are typically made RPG or otherwise.
Many video-gamers are in new territory when it comes to playing their first MMO. It's no surprise it took a change to story elements and presentation (WOW) to bring many of them into the MMO fold.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Why even play an MMO then? If you are just always "Making your own fun", then why not just sit down with a pen and paper and write a whole story yourself?
Although that would take alot of work wouldnt it? So why Khaeros if i may ask do we play MMO's then if you can just imagine anything in the real world anyways?
Seriously though, if your just going to make it difficult for yourself by wearing terrible gear, placing loot roll limits, etc.etc.???
The real problem with story in mmorpg's is the mechanics and limitations behind them. Either you have a sandbox with some lore but no story (run around killing things for no reason) or themepark (story on rails with no player input/choices that matter). To your point about Pen n paper rpg's, you have a human telling the story and can react to your choices, changing the story as you go. There's no good mechanics for that, so you create a character and follow a path laid out for you the same as everyone else in themes, or have no story and just random events in sandboxes. Either someone needs to combine them together into a changing, immersive world, or new mechanics need to be developed for strytelling to let players have an impact on the world or twist a plot type random content, or something. Something needs to change in the industry or we will keep being disappointed-no matter which style you prefer, as games have been pretty average to bad lately.
Some forum replies focus on ideas contrary to your own. If you don't like them, don't read or click reply.
It should seem very obvious that the MMORPG genre has taken off since the introduction of story elements. Whether or not people individually enjoy story is sort of irrelevant (and like Khaeros says, those players can obviously find non-story-based MMORPGs to play if they want to encourage the genre away from storylines...but in the meantime there seem to be a lot more players moving things in the other direction.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
agreed 100%.
We can't just make a meet to play PnP with the guild. While we are mostly US, we are scattered around quite a bit. The game is an interface that gives us plenty more flexibility. A MUD would do as well, but we quite like our graphical interface (and players also enjoy the game itself - the community isn't a 24/7 roleplay reich). Consider it a preference, I guess.
Also, I've had my share of combat taking forever in pnp. In an interface like an MMO, it's all done by a computer who is much faster than me (and less prone to mistakes). While I loved the concept of turn-based battles, it's nice to do something different.
Have you never goofed off in an MMO by doing something with half your gear or with an absolutely ridiculous strategy or build? I mean, it all stems from there, except we take it to the Serious Business level.
It takes some effort, but it's not like I have to roll dice. The fun outweighs it.
Well, that is one big utopia. Nobody would remember your deeds in classic mmorpg, it is just imagination of people that gives them feeling about being important part of the game. You think people think about you for long time when you slay one dragon or when you do most kills in pvp, hell no they forget you in few sec. To be able to create story that will impact you gaming universe game must be hardcore like eve online and in fact it is the only game where deeds are remembered. And why is that? It is so because you can lose so much in eve and because it is pure sandbox game, one ships is sometimes worth more then 200$ -300$. And when you come with your friends and save your corp in some big fleet battle you are remembered. But to think people admire you in some game like EQ because of your achievements is just imagination and nothing more. So what i remember is good story , graphic, sound and most important is that feeling about being in world of dreams. Players only destroy my gaming expirience and are only good to be killed in pvp
I saw SWG the opposite way. The worlds were amazing and it was fun at first, but there was no reason to do anything. I made a rodian smuggler, but their was nothing to smuggle. I was just a guy running around with a blaster shooting random creatures that were minding theri own business. I tried it for 6 months (did crafting, resource gathering, etc), but didn't pull me in. I felt it needed some type of story element (not what TOR did), or some reason to do anything. Seems like an IP like star wars or lotr need some type connection to the story to make sense of why you are fighting or crafting, etc. And a non-IP game makes more sense for a player driven sandbox-type game (I did like UO a lot at the time it came out). Just my opinion.