While I don't completely agree, I think you're mentality is going in the right direction.
I am getting tired of some of the chicken & egg arguments posted in this thread, though. Hopefully those will die down soon. I'm also getting tired of people blatantly misusing statements made in this games forums, and then using that as an excuse to demonize fans of this game.
(This thread is not claiming that this game is the next messiah. It's only showing that MMOs are being made for a WIDER audience, than just people who like WoW. This is a good thing. Nowhere in there does it discredit people for liking games OTHER than GW2, nor does it state that people are somehow flawed if they don't like GW2.)
- On a side note: I would argue that this tread has been happening for a while now. GW2 is just the first MMO with enough hype to really generate much buzz about it. There are tons of F2P / Micro-transaction MMOs that have been trying to do things differently, in addition to the whole CoX type games / Eve, etc. Traditional Themeparks are hardly gone, but they have lost a lot of momentum lately, due to the repetative nature of their game design.
Great read. I can see both sides of the coin though. I am one of those old MMORPG gamers that you speak of. I have spent a very long time in a great number of games (all the way back to the Realm in 95). I used to love the sense of power you would get from being the best, or among the best. I had the time back then and I didn't mind heavily investing it ( I camped a mob in EQ 1 for 3 days straight... so much fun...)
However my life is considerably different now. I have a wife and 2 year old. My days filled with hours of camping rare monsters and raiding till I can't see straight are gone... At first this made me a little sad, but i've realized that the real-life stuff is much more rewarding. But I still love gaming! I just can't do it the same way I used to. This is where I can see the OPs arguement. I am thrilled to be able to play a game where being the best doesnt mean who has the most time to kill. I am excited about GW2, we'll see if it really is this great paradigm shift the OP is speaking of.
True Fanboi post, cash shop rip oFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I like to tank, but I can't no open world PVP, worthless crafting did we mention a rip off cash shop yet. This game is nothing but an instanced WoW clone wannabe but keep thinking otherwise.
True Fanboi post, cash shop rip oFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I like to tank, but I can't no open world PVP, worthless crafting did we mention a rip off cash shop yet. This game is nothing but an instanced WoW clone wannabe but keep thinking otherwise.
Fool... Guild Wars 2 is not instanced. I think you forgot to mention WoW's rip off subscription fees. Guild Wars 2 is completely innovative and the game is gonna be unique. Anet is nothing like EA/Bioware, SWTOR is WoW with lightsabers. I can name 50 games that play like WoW, can you name even 1 game out now that is like Guild Wars 2? No you can't other wise i'd be playing it right now. True WoW Fanboi post.
Originally posted by BadSpock This thread (the OP) should be stickied for "how to do posting correctly"
... posted under two textbook example hater and fanboy posts. Oh, the irony!
Thanks for that read, Dream_Chaser. There's just one thing I disagree with you on, though:
Originally posted by Dream_Chaser WoW, from the ground up, conditions you to want to be better than someone. It puts in various ways to force you to compete. [...] In Guild Wars 2 they'll actually have to socialise with people, they'll have to be nice, they won't be in complete control, they'll be equal.
The former is not new, but in fact trivial. Games are based on conflict and competition. That, in conjunction with a lack of consequences* is actually a defining trait of a "game". So that's not necessarily a bad thing. I believe the bad social experiences in WoW derive from different things, such as the internet's anonymity.
Having said that, I also don't think that GW2 will change that. I don't see a lot of mechanics in place that force people to socialize and be nice. Yes, a lot of the unintentional conflict like drops or questmobs is gone, but that doesn't mean people won't behave like a$$hats. What I do see however is that I am given enough leeway to say "No thanks" to a player or group who I don't want to play with because they behave like that.
___ *on the world outside of the "game circle" which limits the virtual world of the game
Let me point out that, in fact, I couldn't care less about these first world problems. I'm just having fun.
Eloquent post OP, shame it misses the point in so far as what "older school mmorpg players" (and indeed competitive gamers) get irate about. Whilst at certain other points, just spouts rubbish in all honesty.
It would be all well and good to berate a game which involves a time factor in terms of in game development had there happened to be no other genres out there which cater to instant action fun. Quite clearly that is not the case. The reason many bemoan the fact that mmorpgs are perceived to be becoming increasingly P2W and Faster, Pussycat! Kill! Kill! is because some actually like some kind of variation in their gaming experience.
To also equate longer term development with people being assholes is complete garbage. People enjoyed the longer term development because it was part and parcel of living in an online world. If you want to see people being wankers to each other take a peek in e-sport games or better yet more casual mmorpgs (you know the ones you seem to be glorifying).
People are not "terrified" of losing a time advantage, they are not worried that everyone is on an equal footing. I for one am actively looking forward to that aspect in GW2. Some though are concerned that every sodding game is going the same way, that there is increasingly less variation across gaming genres and that one specific playstyle is being catered to at the cost of all others. But yeah, it's all about people not being able to derive a time advantage which will allow them to be assholes to other gamers right...
When all the genres seem to becoming homogenised into the same kind of game, then yes, people can rightly moan about that fact and it has nothing at all to do with being unable to adjust to a new way of thinking.
I consider myself to be an "old school" mmorpg gamer (hell just an old gamer) and yet I am avidly looking forward to GW2 and spend most of my gaming time (which is limited) playing FPS/e-sport style games. Still for all that it seems perfectly clear to me why it get's on peoples tits that "what the single player co-op players expects" is getting pandered to in an altogether different genre, above and beyond the expectations of you know, traditional mmorpg players.
As for P2W in general, it blows in a traditional mmorpg because at some point it will undoubtedly undermine the player economy in terms of players actually interacting with each other in a game world to generate said games economy. In a competitive game it blows if it provides items that offer any kind of competitive advantage. If the above is not clear to people then one does have to wonder quite frankly.
I would hesitate to suggest that very few are "stuck in the subscription mindset", pay for the box and off you go is fantastic, as is a cash shop IF you know that at no point it will impinge upon player interaction/social meta gaming or upon competitive action. Sadly that is not always the case now is it. That is what bothers some people, not the fact that they are stuck on some subscription ideal.
With regards to demographics, it should be patently obvious to anyone that there are far more potential and active casual, instant gamers out there. That the market is larger and the profits to be had greater. Most would also agree that mmorpgs should expand and try and cater to said markets. But when it comes at the cost of losing any of the actual originality that the genre had over and above other gaming genres, I don't think so Tim. To suggest that people should consider if other demograhpics are more important than their own though (as though they should be somehow happy that their prefered playstyle is getting dumped on), really? Perhaps you are not suggesting that, I certainly hope not at least, because it would be really rather stupid.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
It was supposed to 'miss the point' a little. Like I said, it was a subtle but elaborate tug on the edges of the psyches of the people responsible to reveal factors that I was already aware of. I made a couple of posts about this a little bit back that I considered the closure of the thread. Mostly because we'd already had so many good examples that I felt comfortable with revealing my motivations.
Basically, wiith that post, you've played up to what I was expecting. Really, I couldn't hope for better results. This thread continues to win.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
What you're not realising is that it was intentionally written so that it would solicit a response from a certain mindset if that mindset existed. I explained my motivations a bit back, and it left some people feeling rather silly. Also, whilst I did obfuscate certain elements, I'm not sure what you're seeing as fallacies.
Either way, you're coming over as far, far too butthurt not to have a stake in this. Therefore you're another great example.
It was supposed to 'miss the point' a little. Like I said, it was a subtle but elaborate tug on the edges of the psyches of the people responsible to reveal factors that I was already aware of. I made a couple of posts about this a little bit back that I considered the closure of the thread. Mostly because we'd already had so many good examples that I felt comfortable with revealing my motivations.
Basically, wiith that post, you've played up to what I was expecting. Really, I couldn't hope for better results. This thread continues to win.
In fairness I was giving you the benefit of the doubt by operating under the assumption that it had anything close to a meaningful "point" at all.
Keep on dressing it up as some kind of pseudo psychology though if it makes you feel better about it all.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
What you're not realising is that it was intentionally written so that it would solicit a response from a certain mindset if that mindset existed. I explained my motivations a bit back, and it left some people feeling rather silly. Also, whilst I did obfuscate certain elements, I'm not sure what you're seeing as fallacies.
Either way, you're coming over as far, far too butthurt not to have a stake in this. Therefore you're another great example.
Just want to make sure we're clear on what "a great example is".
Anyone who disagrees with anything you posted or "solicits a *negative* response" somehow plays into whatever it is you're trying to prove, hence making them a great example of.... what? People that disagree with you?
I find that even when I agree with you I disagree with you. Therefore.. I am a great example.
I think the sole purpose of this topic was to fish for compliments and response of those who agree with OP. Anything negative or opinions that do not agree with OP are just not welcome.
I think the sole purpose of this topic was to fish for compliments and response of those who agree with OP. Anything negative or opinions that do not agree with OP are just not welcome.
I get the impression from this board that for some reason those who give criticism or deviating opinions expect to not be held accountable for their statements. You disagree with something, you have to expect a counter, same the other way around. That's how debating works.
How do people get the idea that just because B does not share A's opinion, A suddenly has to budge without being allowed to back up his own arguments? Or C taking sides with A? As if a debate with a back-and-forth was something bad. You people are seriously weird.
Let me point out that, in fact, I couldn't care less about these first world problems. I'm just having fun.
I think the sole purpose of this topic was to fish for compliments and response of those who agree with OP. Anything negative or opinions that do not agree with OP are just not welcome.
I get the impression from this board that for some reason those who give criticism or deviating opinions expect to not be held accountable for their statements. You disagree with something, you have to expect a counter, same the other way around. That's how debating works.
How do people get the idea that just because B does not share A's opinion, A suddenly has to budge without being allowed to back up his own arguments? Or C taking sides with A? As if a debate with a back-and-forth was something bad. You people are seriously weird.
The 'negative nancy's' are used to getting an easy ride with previous MMO's because they were (sadly) right a lot of the time. When they tried to 'bring everyone down' on GW2, they kept getting hit with facts that disproved them
I think the sole purpose of this topic was to fish for compliments and response of those who agree with OP. Anything negative or opinions that do not agree with OP are just not welcome.
I get the impression from this board that for some reason those who give criticism or deviating opinions expect to not be held accountable for their statements. You disagree with something, you have to expect a counter, same the other way around. That's how debating works.
How do people get the idea that just because B does not share A's opinion, A suddenly has to budge without being allowed to back up his own arguments? Or C taking sides with A? As if a debate with a back-and-forth was something bad. You people are seriously weird.
No debating back and forth is not bad but when every time the conclusion is the same that 'either agree with me or you are just .... (fill any random insult you like). We know why the topic was made.
I think the sole purpose of this topic was to fish for compliments and response of those who agree with OP. Anything negative or opinions that do not agree with OP are just not welcome.
Well if you can't back up your dissenting remarks with facts or numbers, not it won't be accepted and should never be. There are too many who just post non-sense expect it to be validated and get their butthurt if no one agrees. Don't like something fine don't like it but too many on these forums don't stop there they try to make a mountain out of a mole hill often with false information.
I think the sole purpose of this topic was to fish for compliments and response of those who agree with OP. Anything negative or opinions that do not agree with OP are just not welcome.
Well if you can't back up your dissenting remarks with facts or numbers, not it won't be accepted and should never be. There are too many who just post non-sense expect it to be validated and get their butthurt if no one agrees. Don't like something fine don't like it but too many on these forums don't stop there they try to make a mountain out of a mole hill often with false information.
Which has fuck all to do with this thread in fairness. The OP has essentially been fishing with a post that contains little to no actual "content", being at best a verbose troll post and at worst merely overly long tedium. Anyone who has pointed that out has somehow fallen into some great thought experiment trap.
Sorry but as someone who is looking forward to GW2 and has zero issues with it's cash shop I find the thread really rather pointless (and that is being polite).
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
but seriously, if people don't understand the appeal of this game, then really you're not paying attention.
jump puzzles
traps in dungeons (something that hasn't been seen since DDO)
real DE's with arching trees of events not that timed public questing crap in other games
no tagging mobs
no tagging resource nodes in gathering
crafting actually matters
and don't get me started on the trinity, that things been a pain ever since it was made
oh oh and my personal favorite, their separating the code for pvp skills and pvp skills so one doesn't have to relearn their character's attacks EVERY WEEK. Left WoW 8 months ago because of that, and because the marine biologist there just plain hates hunters and has publically admitted it no less.
One of my prime hopes for Guild Wars 2 was that it would have people re-evaluate things, possibly on a large scale, that it would have people looking at stuff that occurs that we take for granted as part of the system. That it would shake things up and prove that things set in stone don't need to be set in stone.
I'm familiar with the concept of a paradigm shift from a scientific viewpoint. Eventually something comes along, a new theorem that no one cares to accept, and then the evidence starts piling up in support of it and slowly you get more and more supporters. It really pisses people off, and everyone hates the change, but at the end of the day everyone still has a better understanding of the inner-workings of the Universe than they did prior.
And I really think that we need to do some deconstructionalist analysm of MMORPGs in general, there are many things that we accept as set in stone that clearly... well, aren't. The accepted paradigm of the MMORPG has a linear flow to it, and one that many developers have been afraid to break. It's something that's been so ingrained via both classic conditioning (pavlovian responses) and oeprant (consequential) conditioning that people believe it has to go that way.
What those who play a singleplayer or co-op game expect is vastly different to what those who play an MMORPG accept. And I think that the MMORPG has fallen into an unhealthy, stagnant rut. So what do we accept?
You pay a subscription.
You can't buy anything of worth in the game with real money.
You have to make time investments (called 'work' by some) in order to acquire resource units.
These time investements are massive and favour those without real life responsibilities or connections.
Excessive time investments cause MMORPG players to consider the genre 'hardcore' because of that.
Those who invest time ('work') control the economic flow.
Those with the best gear get into the best raids.
Those who make large time investments are entitled to exclusive content that no one else is.
Further content should take greater time investments and not be completed quickly.
In order to substantiate these time investments, a 'carrot' is needed.
this 'carrot' is exclusive gear, which is then used for further exclusive content.
That's when the raiding treadmill occurs.
This is a fascinating concept. Not only because I can't really understand the appeal, but because of the divide it creates. First of all, I want to cover not understanding the appeal. The lack of appeal in my case is that I can't understand why you'd want to waste your life for a constant chain of 'carrots.' There was one Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw video that summed this up eloquently.
It went something like this:
"So why are you raiding?"
"To get better gear."
"Which gives you?"
"Bigger numbers."
"Why do you need those?"
"The boss has bigger numbers."
"What do you get from the boss?"
"Better gear!"
"And what do you do with that?"
"Kill the next boss, duh!"
Imagine that.
The problem is is that not everyone is able to make these ridiculous time investments. You have people with children, a family, a job, social obligations, and so on. The sort of people who're considered 'casuals.' Now, the usual MMORPG talks about these people in derogatory ways, often considering them not 'leet' or not 'hardcore' enough. Because having a job and a child isn't 'hardcore.' So they sneer at such people and demand that the game be made more for them, creating more time investments.
But where did this begin?
It all started off with subscriptions. In order to justify a subscription, you have to pad out content. This means that instead of a ten minute mission in Mass Effect 3, you're doing a five hour questing slog. Really, it shouldn't be that long, but it is. So you get to the quest vendor and they offer you these 'carrots,' these rewards. The idea here is that more weak-willed people get hooked on the idea of somehow, somehow being better than other people. In some small way... better.
It takes advantage of them.
So via conditioning and peer pressure, the average MMORPG gamer then continues to spend their life playing the game, without even realising the harm it might be doing to them. What they get out of this is the feeling of controlling the economy, of being able to separate themselves into haves and have-nots, in order to sneer down at those who don't have the same level of access to the game that they do. That's what it's all about. That shiny mount, that exclusive raid, that high-end armour? It's all to be better than someone else. One-upmanship, plain and simple. It's not a difficult concept.
However, things are changing now. And that has those people terrified, because they can't handle change. What this means is that there's no grind, there's no gruelling slog. This in turn means that there's no carrot. That means that they have no way to be better than other people. This is something I've discussed before - Guild Wars 2 enforces player equality. It's an egalitarian game. Everyone gets the same chance at the game, through different methods of content.
At the power plateau, it won't matter if you've put eight hours into the game or eight thousand, you're all equal.
This is a terrifying concept to those who've ruled with time investments. Because for the longest time MMORPGs have been whispering delicately into their ears that their way is the only way. Subscribe to our game, we'll let you be better than other people. But the market is changing. More and more developers are realising that these people who want time investments to rule the economy are a vast minority (vocal, but still a vast minority).
There are casual players out there just waiting for the MMORPGs that are designed for them to play. And those are on the way. One of the first is Guild Wars 2.
And like I said, it's working.
What Guild Wars 2 is doing is shaking things up, it's altering perceptions. It's saying that what was set in stone was an illusion, and that things can be completely different. Those who helped set those rules in stone are going to rail against that. Of course they are. No more exclusive content for them. Yes, that's going to suck for them. Because the reason they play an MMORPG, even in PvE, is just to be better than someone.
But there are games out there for them. Games which encourage competitive PvE, games which encourage people being arseholes to each other, and games which encourage player inequality. And they'll always have those games. But they're worried that one day... they're going to run out of games and they'll have to play our games, the games of casual players. And yeah, that scares them.
I mean, look at WoW.
WoW, from the ground up, conditions you to want to be better than someone. It puts in various ways to force you to compete. You can easily accidentally flag yourself as PvP, resource nodes are instanced globally rather than per player, which makes people fight over them, and the whole thing is one massive sociopathic circlejerk. It's just people being horribly indecent to each other. But again, the old MMORPG player, the time investor, they're comfortable with that.
In Guild Wars 2 they'll actually have to socialise with people, they'll have to be nice, they won't be in complete control, they'll be equal. This turns everything they know on its head. And that's why we've had so many threads about this. It's old MMORPG players damn near having a brain aneurysm at all of the rules they thought they knew being turned upon their heads.
No longer lords and ladies. Just peons. Like the rest of us.
They have to come back down to the real world.
But what we're getting instead now is that they're seeing the other side of the equation. Just because there's equality, they're blowing it out of proportion and saying that money ivnestors will be on top. That's obviously not the case, but that's the fear that they have, because they're having these crazy slippery slope theories. You know? Oh no, we've lost our regal status, soon our slaves will be our masters, and we'll be the slaves!
That's not going to happen, but they're seeing things from the side of the have-nots and the results?
The results are frankly hilarious.
If I were a vindictive person, I'd pester ArenaNet to actually include an $80 monocle in the game, just so that I could buy it, wear it, and flaunt it at the time investors. But I'm not a vindictive person. Like I've said before, my approach to the game will be to find the most sensible, utilitarian armour I can and stick with that. I don't really give a shit about being the prettiest pony on the block.
But if you understand the paradigm shift, here, if you understand how the patterns are changing, then you understand why every one of these new threads exists. It's forcing people to question all that was supposedly set in stone about GW2. And like I said, that says to me... GW2 works. I am pleased.
I think the sole purpose of this topic was to fish for compliments and response of those who agree with OP. Anything negative or opinions that do not agree with OP are just not welcome.
haha my thought's exactly. I mean just look at the first few responses. Sorry but any post using the words paradigm shift when speaking about a yet unreleased MMO is a little silly. It's just a 'buzzword'. I have been staying out of this whole GW2 mess for a reason, but it's become increasingly impossible on this site to avoid it.
Clearly working? It's a video game. It's made for people to enjoy and so that Anet can make money. There is nothing revelutionary about it. When I am playing in a fully virtual 3D world, call it revolutionary all you want.
Just love all the responses from the fearful "HARDCORE" elite who really wish this game to fail, too bad for them the math is on the side of Anet as casuals make up the largest number of players.
Comments
Very good read OP.
While I don't completely agree, I think you're mentality is going in the right direction.
I am getting tired of some of the chicken & egg arguments posted in this thread, though. Hopefully those will die down soon. I'm also getting tired of people blatantly misusing statements made in this games forums, and then using that as an excuse to demonize fans of this game.
(This thread is not claiming that this game is the next messiah. It's only showing that MMOs are being made for a WIDER audience, than just people who like WoW. This is a good thing. Nowhere in there does it discredit people for liking games OTHER than GW2, nor does it state that people are somehow flawed if they don't like GW2.)
- On a side note: I would argue that this tread has been happening for a while now. GW2 is just the first MMO with enough hype to really generate much buzz about it. There are tons of F2P / Micro-transaction MMOs that have been trying to do things differently, in addition to the whole CoX type games / Eve, etc. Traditional Themeparks are hardly gone, but they have lost a lot of momentum lately, due to the repetative nature of their game design.
Great read. I can see both sides of the coin though. I am one of those old MMORPG gamers that you speak of. I have spent a very long time in a great number of games (all the way back to the Realm in 95). I used to love the sense of power you would get from being the best, or among the best. I had the time back then and I didn't mind heavily investing it ( I camped a mob in EQ 1 for 3 days straight... so much fun...)
However my life is considerably different now. I have a wife and 2 year old. My days filled with hours of camping rare monsters and raiding till I can't see straight are gone... At first this made me a little sad, but i've realized that the real-life stuff is much more rewarding. But I still love gaming! I just can't do it the same way I used to. This is where I can see the OPs arguement. I am thrilled to be able to play a game where being the best doesnt mean who has the most time to kill. I am excited about GW2, we'll see if it really is this great paradigm shift the OP is speaking of.
True Fanboi post, cash shop rip oFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I like to tank, but I can't no open world PVP, worthless crafting did we mention a rip off cash shop yet. This game is nothing but an instanced WoW clone wannabe but keep thinking otherwise.
Fool... Guild Wars 2 is not instanced. I think you forgot to mention WoW's rip off subscription fees. Guild Wars 2 is completely innovative and the game is gonna be unique. Anet is nothing like EA/Bioware, SWTOR is WoW with lightsabers. I can name 50 games that play like WoW, can you name even 1 game out now that is like Guild Wars 2? No you can't other wise i'd be playing it right now. True WoW Fanboi post.
This thread (the OP) should be stickied for "how to do posting correctly"
Thanks for that read, Dream_Chaser. There's just one thing I disagree with you on, though:
The former is not new, but in fact trivial. Games are based on conflict and competition. That, in conjunction with a lack of consequences* is actually a defining trait of a "game". So that's not necessarily a bad thing. I believe the bad social experiences in WoW derive from different things, such as the internet's anonymity.
Having said that, I also don't think that GW2 will change that. I don't see a lot of mechanics in place that force people to socialize and be nice. Yes, a lot of the unintentional conflict like drops or questmobs is gone, but that doesn't mean people won't behave like a$$hats. What I do see however is that I am given enough leeway to say "No thanks" to a player or group who I don't want to play with because they behave like that.
___
*on the world outside of the "game circle" which limits the virtual world of the game
Let me point out that, in fact, I couldn't care less about these first world problems. I'm just having fun.
Eloquent post OP, shame it misses the point in so far as what "older school mmorpg players" (and indeed competitive gamers) get irate about. Whilst at certain other points, just spouts rubbish in all honesty.
It would be all well and good to berate a game which involves a time factor in terms of in game development had there happened to be no other genres out there which cater to instant action fun. Quite clearly that is not the case. The reason many bemoan the fact that mmorpgs are perceived to be becoming increasingly P2W and Faster, Pussycat! Kill! Kill! is because some actually like some kind of variation in their gaming experience.
To also equate longer term development with people being assholes is complete garbage. People enjoyed the longer term development because it was part and parcel of living in an online world. If you want to see people being wankers to each other take a peek in e-sport games or better yet more casual mmorpgs (you know the ones you seem to be glorifying).
People are not "terrified" of losing a time advantage, they are not worried that everyone is on an equal footing. I for one am actively looking forward to that aspect in GW2. Some though are concerned that every sodding game is going the same way, that there is increasingly less variation across gaming genres and that one specific playstyle is being catered to at the cost of all others. But yeah, it's all about people not being able to derive a time advantage which will allow them to be assholes to other gamers right...
When all the genres seem to becoming homogenised into the same kind of game, then yes, people can rightly moan about that fact and it has nothing at all to do with being unable to adjust to a new way of thinking.
I consider myself to be an "old school" mmorpg gamer (hell just an old gamer) and yet I am avidly looking forward to GW2 and spend most of my gaming time (which is limited) playing FPS/e-sport style games. Still for all that it seems perfectly clear to me why it get's on peoples tits that "what the single player co-op players expects" is getting pandered to in an altogether different genre, above and beyond the expectations of you know, traditional mmorpg players.
As for P2W in general, it blows in a traditional mmorpg because at some point it will undoubtedly undermine the player economy in terms of players actually interacting with each other in a game world to generate said games economy. In a competitive game it blows if it provides items that offer any kind of competitive advantage. If the above is not clear to people then one does have to wonder quite frankly.
I would hesitate to suggest that very few are "stuck in the subscription mindset", pay for the box and off you go is fantastic, as is a cash shop IF you know that at no point it will impinge upon player interaction/social meta gaming or upon competitive action. Sadly that is not always the case now is it. That is what bothers some people, not the fact that they are stuck on some subscription ideal.
With regards to demographics, it should be patently obvious to anyone that there are far more potential and active casual, instant gamers out there. That the market is larger and the profits to be had greater. Most would also agree that mmorpgs should expand and try and cater to said markets. But when it comes at the cost of losing any of the actual originality that the genre had over and above other gaming genres, I don't think so Tim. To suggest that people should consider if other demograhpics are more important than their own though (as though they should be somehow happy that their prefered playstyle is getting dumped on), really? Perhaps you are not suggesting that, I certainly hope not at least, because it would be really rather stupid.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
@bunnyhopper
It was supposed to 'miss the point' a little. Like I said, it was a subtle but elaborate tug on the edges of the psyches of the people responsible to reveal factors that I was already aware of. I made a couple of posts about this a little bit back that I considered the closure of the thread. Mostly because we'd already had so many good examples that I felt comfortable with revealing my motivations.
Basically, wiith that post, you've played up to what I was expecting. Really, I couldn't hope for better results. This thread continues to win.
Really? I was going to shred it when it first came out but decided not to bother.
It contained a number of assumptions and logical falacies that would have made for good sport, but in the end figured I've got no dog in this fight.
I play all sorts of MMO's regardless of their subscription model, end game or play style.
Decided to give the Tera Closed beta a try this weekend, and eventually I'll be in the GW2 space to see what all the fuss is about.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
@Kyleran
What you're not realising is that it was intentionally written so that it would solicit a response from a certain mindset if that mindset existed. I explained my motivations a bit back, and it left some people feeling rather silly. Also, whilst I did obfuscate certain elements, I'm not sure what you're seeing as fallacies.
Either way, you're coming over as far, far too butthurt not to have a stake in this. Therefore you're another great example.
In fairness I was giving you the benefit of the doubt by operating under the assumption that it had anything close to a meaningful "point" at all.
Keep on dressing it up as some kind of pseudo psychology though if it makes you feel better about it all.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Just want to make sure we're clear on what "a great example is".
Anyone who disagrees with anything you posted or "solicits a *negative* response" somehow plays into whatever it is you're trying to prove, hence making them a great example of.... what? People that disagree with you?
I find that even when I agree with you I disagree with you. Therefore.. I am a great example.
@maskedweasel
I think the sole purpose of this topic was to fish for compliments and response of those who agree with OP. Anything negative or opinions that do not agree with OP are just not welcome.
I get the impression from this board that for some reason those who give criticism or deviating opinions expect to not be held accountable for their statements. You disagree with something, you have to expect a counter, same the other way around. That's how debating works.
How do people get the idea that just because B does not share A's opinion, A suddenly has to budge without being allowed to back up his own arguments? Or C taking sides with A? As if a debate with a back-and-forth was something bad. You people are seriously weird.
Let me point out that, in fact, I couldn't care less about these first world problems. I'm just having fun.
The 'negative nancy's' are used to getting an easy ride with previous MMO's because they were (sadly) right a lot of the time. When they tried to 'bring everyone down' on GW2, they kept getting hit with facts that disproved them
No debating back and forth is not bad but when every time the conclusion is the same that 'either agree with me or you are just .... (fill any random insult you like). We know why the topic was made.
Well if you can't back up your dissenting remarks with facts or numbers, not it won't be accepted and should never be. There are too many who just post non-sense expect it to be validated and get their butthurt if no one agrees. Don't like something fine don't like it but too many on these forums don't stop there they try to make a mountain out of a mole hill often with false information.
Which has fuck all to do with this thread in fairness. The OP has essentially been fishing with a post that contains little to no actual "content", being at best a verbose troll post and at worst merely overly long tedium. Anyone who has pointed that out has somehow fallen into some great thought experiment trap.
Sorry but as someone who is looking forward to GW2 and has zero issues with it's cash shop I find the thread really rather pointless (and that is being polite).
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Anubisan you are definitely the guy behind the counter
but seriously, if people don't understand the appeal of this game, then really you're not paying attention.
jump puzzles
traps in dungeons (something that hasn't been seen since DDO)
real DE's with arching trees of events not that timed public questing crap in other games
no tagging mobs
no tagging resource nodes in gathering
crafting actually matters
and don't get me started on the trinity, that things been a pain ever since it was made
oh oh and my personal favorite, their separating the code for pvp skills and pvp skills so one doesn't have to relearn their character's attacks EVERY WEEK. Left WoW 8 months ago because of that, and because the marine biologist there just plain hates hunters and has publically admitted it no less.
but that's another story entirely.
nvm, ignore my mistake.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
GW2 will fail like Aion, like every blody game they did in the past years.
The End
Great post, agree 100%
haha my thought's exactly. I mean just look at the first few responses. Sorry but any post using the words paradigm shift when speaking about a yet unreleased MMO is a little silly. It's just a 'buzzword'. I have been staying out of this whole GW2 mess for a reason, but it's become increasingly impossible on this site to avoid it.
Clearly working? It's a video game. It's made for people to enjoy and so that Anet can make money. There is nothing revelutionary about it. When I am playing in a fully virtual 3D world, call it revolutionary all you want.
This man is from the future lol ^ .
Pardon my English as it is not my 1st language
Just love all the responses from the fearful "HARDCORE" elite who really wish this game to fail, too bad for them the math is on the side of Anet as casuals make up the largest number of players.