WTF are you talking about sorry but your post made zero sense just go to their home page and look at what you get for the Pre Purchase it is in Black and white, pretty simple actually and it is in black and white.
My issue with it is no other major Dev has charged full price for a guaranteed spot in beta, has never happened, what part do you not understand, but I will link it for you ok.
Some will just have pay once and play to win as much as you want depending on our tolerance level
Some have pay to play to win but if you stop the pay you can't play to win until you pay to win lol.
No but seriousely though p2p is what people will call even lol. You don't pay you can't play to win.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Now, this is a thought that occurred to me that amused me greatly. We have people hating on the cash shop, but isn't a subscription technically pay to win as well? Due to there being no skill involved in the vast majority of MMORPG releases, it all comes down to how much time you play for.
Let's say that I pay for one month out of four, I play, and I get some neat stuff. Let's say that you pay for all four moths and grind some really amazing shit. In PvP, let's say that gear decides things and the clear victory is yours. (This is the case in games like WoW.) Isn't that paying to win?
Again, just a thought exercise.
No, not even close.
If you want to, using your suedo-logic, to imply that a subscription is actually a forced pay-to-win then keep riding that unicorn. There is no advantage one subscriber has over another.
Sure there is...
If player 1 plays 40 hours a week and player 2 can only play for 10 hours...there is a big difference.
Player 1 should pay four times what player 2 pays to make them equal. Otherwise player 1 is cheating player 2 by getting more for his money.
No game mechanic is preventing you from playing 40 hours in a week, try again.
WTF are you talking about sorry but your post made zero sense just go to their home page and look at what you get for the Pre Purchase it is in Black and white, pretty simple actually and it is in black and white.
My issue with it is no other major Dev has charged full price for a guaranteed spot in beta, has never happened, what part do you not understand, but I will link it for you ok.
Dread, the prepurchased is not meant for you if you think its stupid.
The prepurchase is for their old and new fans who had been supporting them in GW1 and now GW2.
No matter when the game launch, these fans will buy their games right, so Anet gave them extra stuff for purchasing early.
And also some people get to play Beta this weekend eventho they did not puchase anything.
Tera gave me all this things as well for $5, same with SWTOR, RIFT, LoTRO, I could go on and on but none of these games ever charged full price for spot in beta which is my whole point of contention here. Now add in the cash shop on top of that and this just reeks of NCSoft just wanting to take your money as fast as they can, but we are now totally off topic and I have said my peace on the beta.
I have been exceptionally vocal against the shop in GW2.
I have come under a lot of fire for it, but I have my reasons. I don't want to see what happened in my last game happen again.
Please understand, I am trying to make sure this game is and stays awsome.
And burrying our heads in the sand and making excuses for ANet won't work.
The following was cut from a thread where a similar conversation took place, but it explains my POV clearly and why I am so vocal.
[Pasted from other threads]
You sure have. You treat it like other companies that DO have bad cash shops. Even when Anet has a track record of a cash shop that doesn't imbalance gameplay.
Yes, you are right....But why is it OK?
They have already deviated from that model.
Because for whatever reason a ANET can do no wrong, just like Bioware before SWTOR but worse now.
But what I don't understand is, this is not unique, Yes, FunCom is an exception. they are infamous in the industry, But NCSoft is also. Are they not exerting a big influence on how this shop is to be run?
I just don't understand how someoen can read that post.....Assuming you believe what i said there and not think...wait a minute. I don't want that in my game.
Most people just aren't as paranoid as you, and until something happens to change their mind, the whole thing is a moot point.
I have been exceptionally vocal against the shop in GW2.
I have come under a lot of fire for it, but I have my reasons. I don't want to see what happened in my last game happen again.
Please understand, I am trying to make sure this game is and stays awsome.
And burrying our heads in the sand and making excuses for ANet won't work.
The following was cut from a thread where a similar conversation took place, but it explains my POV clearly and why I am so vocal.
[Pasted from other threads]
You sure have. You treat it like other companies that DO have bad cash shops. Even when Anet has a track record of a cash shop that doesn't imbalance gameplay.
Yes, you are right....But why is it OK?
They have already deviated from that model.
Because for whatever reason a ANET can do no wrong, just like Bioware before SWTOR but worse now.
But what I don't understand is, this is not unique, Yes, FunCom is an exception. they are infamous in the industry, But NCSoft is also. Are they not exerting a big influence on how this shop is to be run?
I just don't understand how someoen can read that post.....Assuming you believe what i said there and not think...wait a minute. I don't want that in my game.
I am sure NCSoft is without a doubt behind this.
While I agree, one thing is clear.
My concerns are not mirrored by this community.
I get it now. You guys want no rain on your parade.
I'll not be posting my anti-CS messages in GW2 boards.
Only thing I can do is hope you guys are right.
Because then If I am (And I really hope I am) wrong. Then we will have one kick ass game.
Now, this is a thought that occurred to me that amused me greatly. We have people hating on the cash shop, but isn't a subscription technically pay to win as well? Due to there being no skill involved in the vast majority of MMORPG releases, it all comes down to how much time you play for.
Let's say that I pay for one month out of four, I play, and I get some neat stuff. Let's say that you pay for all four moths and grind some really amazing shit. In PvP, let's say that gear decides things and the clear victory is yours. (This is the case in games like WoW.) Isn't that paying to win?
Again, just a thought exercise.
No, not even close.
If you want to, using your suedo-logic, to imply that a subscription is actually a forced pay-to-win then keep riding that unicorn. There is no advantage one subscriber has over another.
Sure there is...
If player 1 plays 40 hours a week and player 2 can only play for 10 hours...there is a big difference.
Player 1 should pay four times what player 2 pays to make them equal. Otherwise player 1 is cheating player 2 by getting more for his money.
No game mechanic is preventing you from playing 40 hours in a week, try again.
Most people just aren't as paranoid as you, and until something happens to change their mind, the whole thing is a moot point.
Shouldn't have said that, because that is the in he uses to scream "Why do you place blind trust in Anet?" and "Fanboi!" and "you should be skeptical or you are an idiot".
Now, this is a thought that occurred to me that amused me greatly. We have people hating on the cash shop, but isn't a subscription technically pay to win as well? Due to there being no skill involved in the vast majority of MMORPG releases, it all comes down to how much time you play for.
Let's say that I pay for one month out of four, I play, and I get some neat stuff. Let's say that you pay for all four moths and grind some really amazing shit. In PvP, let's say that gear decides things and the clear victory is yours. (This is the case in games like WoW.) Isn't that paying to win?
Again, just a thought exercise.
No, not even close.
If you want to, using your suedo-logic, to imply that a subscription is actually a forced pay-to-win then keep riding that unicorn. There is no advantage one subscriber has over another.
Sure there is...
If player 1 plays 40 hours a week and player 2 can only play for 10 hours...there is a big difference.
Player 1 should pay four times what player 2 pays to make them equal. Otherwise player 1 is cheating player 2 by getting more for his money.
No game mechanic is preventing you from playing 40 hours in a week.
This is not about game mechanics...it is about value.
Again if a player 1 plays 40 hours a week he should be charged for those 40 hours.
If player 2 plays only 10 hours a week he should be charged for only 10.
If they are both paying the same amount then they should get the same amount of playtime for their money.
For example, for 15$ a month you get 150 hours of playtime...player 1 could use that up in one month...it might take player 2 a whole year but at least they would get equal value for their playtime.
I have been exceptionally vocal against the shop in GW2. I have come under a lot of fire for it, but I have my reasons. I don't want to see what happened in my last game happen again. Please understand, I am trying to make sure this game is and stays awsome. And burrying our heads in the sand and making excuses for ANet won't work. The following was cut from a thread where a similar conversation took place, but it explains my POV clearly and why I am so vocal. [Pasted from other threads]
You sure have. You treat it like other companies that DO have bad cash shops. Even when Anet has a track record of a cash shop that doesn't imbalance gameplay.
Yes, you are right....But why is it OK?
They have already deviated from that model.
Because for whatever reason a ANET can do no wrong, just like Bioware before SWTOR but worse now.
But what I don't understand is, this is not unique, Yes, FunCom is an exception. they are infamous in the industry, But NCSoft is also. Are they not exerting a big influence on how this shop is to be run?
I just don't understand how someoen can read that post.....Assuming you believe what i said there and not think...wait a minute. I don't want that in my game.
I am sure NCSoft is without a doubt behind this.
While I agree, one thing is clear.
My concerns are not mirrored by this community.
I get it now. You guys want no rain on your parade.
I'll not be posting my anti-CS messages in GW2 boards.
Only thing I can do is hope you guys are right.
Because then If I am (And I really hope I am) wrong. Then we will have one kick ass game.
No you just don't state reasons as to why it's p2w, that's how you came out with it, there are many reasons it's not p2w when one puts their items beside the actual game, yet shouting it's p2w but not actually going beyond that has no sense. It is what it is right now that's not p2w, if you fear it may be in the future p2w then ate that's understandable. There has been people skeptics more so on oppose to the game itself, actually understand why it's not p2w and it's because they took note of mechanics first. It's almost fine to be an skeptic but when you state it's p2w as of right now when it's not and you know it your self. If I'm correct you've already stated why it isn't just by your reason in it being p2w lol.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
I have paid around $500 or more after a few years of playing WOW.
Once I stopped paying subs, I cannot even access my own toons.
I would never ever play a P2P games again and also 90% of P2P games suck balls.
Shame Preserved
Making people pay for something that takes millions of dollars of investment and hundreds of thousands to upkeep is not a scam, it running a good business that serves to, among many other things, reduce inflation to appropriate levels, generate Global GDP, and most importantly provide the layman with something enyjoyable to do in his spare time.
Take you give me free crap attitude and get off the internet.
Now, this is a thought that occurred to me that amused me greatly. We have people hating on the cash shop, but isn't a subscription technically pay to win as well? Due to there being no skill involved in the vast majority of MMORPG releases, it all comes down to how much time you play for.
Let's say that I pay for one month out of four, I play, and I get some neat stuff. Let's say that you pay for all four moths and grind some really amazing shit. In PvP, let's say that gear decides things and the clear victory is yours. (This is the case in games like WoW.) Isn't that paying to win?
Again, just a thought exercise.
No, not even close.
If you want to, using your suedo-logic, to imply that a subscription is actually a forced pay-to-win then keep riding that unicorn. There is no advantage one subscriber has over another.
Sure there is...
If player 1 plays 40 hours a week and player 2 can only play for 10 hours...there is a big difference.
Player 1 should pay four times what player 2 pays to make them equal. Otherwise player 1 is cheating player 2 by getting more for his money.
No game mechanic is preventing you from playing 40 hours in a week.
This is not about game mechanics...it is about value.
Again if a player 1 plays 40 hours a week he should be charged for those 40 hours.
If player 2 plays only 10 hours a week he should be charged for only 10.
If they are both paying the same amount then they should get the same amount of playtime for their money.
For example, for 15$ a month you get 150 hours of playtime...player 1 could use that up in one month...it might take player 2 a whole year but at least they would get equal value for their playtime.
You are paying for access to the game when you want it and how long you want it, aside from downtimes. You just aren't using the paid time.
I have paid around $500 or more after a few years of playing WOW.
Once I stopped paying subs, I cannot even access my own toons.
I would never ever play a P2P games again and also 90% of P2P games suck balls.
Shame Preserved
Making people pay for something that takes millions of dollars of investment and hundreds of thousands to upkeep is not a scam, it running a good business that serves to, among many other things, reduce inflation to appropriate levels, generate Global GDP, and most importantly provide the layman with something enyjoyable to do in his spare time.
Take you give me free crap attitude and get off the internet.
EDIT: To be less of a mean person
Yea right, that is why 90% of them going from P2P to F2P / Freemium.
I have been exceptionally vocal against the shop in GW2.
I have come under a lot of fire for it, but I have my reasons. I don't want to see what happened in my last game happen again.
Please understand, I am trying to make sure this game is and stays awsome.
And burrying our heads in the sand and making excuses for ANet won't work.
The following was cut from a thread where a similar conversation took place, but it explains my POV clearly and why I am so vocal.
[Pasted from other threads]
You sure have. You treat it like other companies that DO have bad cash shops. Even when Anet has a track record of a cash shop that doesn't imbalance gameplay.
Yes, you are right....But why is it OK?
They have already deviated from that model.
Because for whatever reason a ANET can do no wrong, just like Bioware before SWTOR but worse now.
But what I don't understand is, this is not unique, Yes, FunCom is an exception. they are infamous in the industry, But NCSoft is also. Are they not exerting a big influence on how this shop is to be run?
I just don't understand how someoen can read that post.....Assuming you believe what i said there and not think...wait a minute. I don't want that in my game.
I am sure NCSoft is without a doubt behind this.
I've said it before... This is not an Anet cash shop, this is a NcSoft cash shop.. I look at the similarities in these items and items in Korean f2p grinders and there is alot the same. Now maybe these items don't quite impact the game like they would in a Korean f2p grinder but that doesn't change the fact there design and in most cases functions work just like they do in those games. Alot of those games have ways to obtain the cash shop items through regular play as well. The RNG items just scream this kind of influence.
Everything after this point requires a tinfoil hat. I'm not claiming this to be true, just what I feel is a possibility.
I'm starting to wonder if some of the 'freedom' anet used to have from NcSoft might not be as strong as it used to be. I mean before NcSoft west was pretty much ran by 2 of the three founders of Anet. With them no longer at NcSoft it leaves just Mike to stand against any pressure from NcSoft to imploy these kind of things. And ultimately he reports to them.
No you just don't state reasons as to why it's p2w, that's how you came out with it, there are many reasons it's not p2w when one puts their items beside the actual game, yet shouting it's p2w but not actually going beyond that has no sense. It is what it is right now that's not p2w, if you fear it may be in the future p2w then ate that's understandable. There has been people skeptics more so on oppose to the game itself, actually understand why it's not p2w and it's because they took note of mechanics first. It's almost fine to be an skeptic but when you state it's p2w as of right now when it's not and you know it your self. If I'm correct you've already stated why it isn't just by your reason in it being p2w lol.
Not completely true. That game was P2W, but many times, here I have stated it's not about individual items but the ovreall effect it has on the Meta Game. Look, I said I was done here. But I hate to be mis quoted or misrepresented. I know I have been pretty consistent with what I have said.
I have paid around $500 or more after a few years of playing WOW.
Once I stopped paying subs, I cannot even access my own toons.
I would never ever play a P2P games again and also 90% of P2P games suck balls.
Shame Preserved
Making people pay for something that takes millions of dollars of investment and hundreds of thousands to upkeep is not a scam, it running a good business that serves to, among many other things, reduce inflation to appropriate levels, generate Global GDP, and most importantly provide the layman with something enyjoyable to do in his spare time.
Take you give me free crap attitude and get off the internet.
EDIT: To be less of a mean person
Yea right, that is why 90% of them going from P2P to F2P / Freemium.
What is F2P with GW2, it is called B2P please get your facts right, and then they will use the cash shop as a way to funnel in the money.
I have paid around $500 or more after a few years of playing WOW.
Once I stopped paying subs, I cannot even access my own toons.
I would never ever play a P2P games again and also 90% of P2P games suck balls.
Shame Preserved
Making people pay for something that takes millions of dollars of investment and hundreds of thousands to upkeep is not a scam, it running a good business that serves to, among many other things, reduce inflation to appropriate levels, generate Global GDP, and most importantly provide the layman with something enyjoyable to do in his spare time.
Take you give me free crap attitude and get off the internet.
EDIT: To be less of a mean person
Yea right, that is why 90% of them going from P2P to F2P / Freemium.
Your right- The companies aren't shifting the pay model to stay competitive in what is a shrinking traditional market and a growing mainstream market they are doing it becuase they have seen the error of thier ways and feel bad for exploiting all those people that payed for subs, that has to be the reason, laws of the market be damned.
Try subscribing to a game for an entire year, and never play. Then, at the end of the year, logon to the game and see how powerful you are.
My guess is...you'll be just as powerful as the day you bought the game. And that is why subscription is not P2W...it's pay to PLAY. If you don't play...you do not get more powerful.
game, set, match
EXCEPT...
If you have 2 people that are both playing, you can gain more power if you play more than the other person. That's the OP's original point. The imbalance simply revolves around time invested instead of money invested. I think you may have missed the OP's point.
No - not having enough time is the red herring here. Everyone always has the same amount of time. Time is equal. You can spend it on a MMO, you can spend it on learning guitar. People always toss insults along with crying about having less time - they're working, they have families. It means nothing. Does the guy learning guitar instead of playing the MMO deserve to pay his way to the top?
Furthermore - try applying the cash shop/time excuse to any other hobby. Anything. Woodworking. Go to a woodworking convention, push your way on stage with a fist full of $1s and say that you'd love to experience the hobby, and you just know you'd be really good, but you don't have the time to hone your skill because you have a job. Tell them - "here's $5 - I want a ribbon too. And I want a title in your hobby. I spend no time with it, but call me Master Woodworker"
Try it in the middle of a basketball game "Yo Leroy - I want to play. You guys already have 12 points, but it's not fair because I've been working. Here's $5 - I want 12 points and a league championship jersey. Also, I can't dribble for shit because I didn't have time to learn... so no more dibbling - I mean you can dribble of you want, but I'm not gonna. Just pretend I'm equal because I paid"
The only reason the time argument even begins to sound valid is because of the assumption that time spent gaming is just a waste of time. If that's how you feel, find something else to do. Don't cry because you want to look like the guy who spends all of his Hobby time in MMOs. Don't cheapen his time just because you want want want and want it now. Family, Kids, Jobs - those are all choices about how you spend your time. Do you tell people to babysit for free because they have no kids? Is that extra "kidless" time somehow yours now to assign value to? Yeah - it isn't. Nor should the value of my gaming time be yours to cheapen by buying my accomplishments.
If you flip your argument around, it sounds even more ridiculous. "Hey boss, I only worked 20 hours, but I need to be paid for 40 so here's a virtual magic sword." No - the currencies aren't and shouldn't be interchangable.
Your job/family/kids time is NOT worth more than my gaming time no matter how self rightously you squeal about it.
I have paid around $500 or more after a few years of playing WOW.
Once I stopped paying subs, I cannot even access my own toons.
I would never ever play a P2P games again and also 90% of P2P games suck balls.
Shame Preserved
Making people pay for something that takes millions of dollars of investment and hundreds of thousands to upkeep is not a scam, it running a good business that serves to, among many other things, reduce inflation to appropriate levels, generate Global GDP, and most importantly provide the layman with something enyjoyable to do in his spare time.
Take you give me free crap attitude and get off the internet.
EDIT: To be less of a mean person
Yea right, that is why 90% of them going from P2P to F2P / Freemium.
What is F2P with GW2, it is called B2P please get your facts right, and then they will use the cash shop as a way to funnel in the money.
Lol wait the min this is getting confusing :P .
I am talking to Biribiri on P2P concept and nothing to do with GW2 bro, lol.
Originally posted by Distopia Originally posted by Size-Twelve
Originally posted by Distopia
Have to disagree, it's typical projectionism. The model he has clung to has come under fire, and he's striking back. His comparison is completely arbitrary, as his calculated cause is not the actual culprit behind the effect. Any RPG (even single player) will reward time in such a way. GW2 will all the way to 80 as well.
Wait, hang on though. Let's not target the OP, but the message. A single player RPG can't give you an advantage against other players (i.e. Play to win). It rewards time, in that eventually you will win the game, but your time isn't measured against that of others. I'm not targetting the OP I'm targetting the mesage he sent, there's a huge difference there. My point wasn't about whether it effects others it's about how progression is nothing but a reward for time spent. You will never get anywhere in an RPG without spending time. The reward is all about how much time you spend, that is progression in a nutshell, Sub model or revenue stream has nothing at all to do with that. Think about this, what is Anets chief message on RMT? Is it not, nothing will give an advantage over time? Meaning progression is the reward for time spent?
My takeaway from ANets stance on the shop is that nothing in it should give an advantage over another PLAYER - not time. Maybe that's where our views are different. I view that to mean that everything in the shop is accessible to all players, and that nothing in it is considered exclusive and useful against another player.
Nevertheless, progression isn't limited to RPG's. Progression in an FPS means learning the maps, and getting better. That is progression that rewards time, but it's time as an investment in a skill. It has limits.
In traditional MMO's time is an investment in accumulating things. Levels, gear, gold, exclusive content etc...these things all give additional advantages on top of a players natural skill. This makes time itself an advantage unique to MMO's, and much like a cash shop, it offers exclusive rewards.
In this way, I feel that the GW2 cash shop is actually MORE fair than a subscription.
This makes time itself an advantage unique to MMO's, and much like a cash shop, it offers exclusive rewards.
In this way, I feel that the GW2 cash shop is actually MORE fair than a subscription.
Time is not an advantage. Everyone has the same amount to spend. 24hrs/day. That's it - everyone is the same. You can't "make" more time than anyone else. How you spend those 24hrs is up to you.
What's not up to you is to chose how valuable anyone else's time is. Judgments about the subjective quality of others' time spent are invalid.
Not everyone has the same amount of cash, by default, all the time. You can make more cash than someone else.
Cash is the variable advantage. Time is a constant
My takeaway from ANets stance on the shop is that nothing in it should give an advantage over another PLAYER - not time. Maybe that's where our views are different. I view that to mean that everything in the shop is accessible to all players, and that nothing in it is considered exclusive and useful against another player.
Nevertheless, progression isn't limited to RPG's. Progression in an FPS means learning the maps, and getting better. That is progression that rewards time, but it's time as an investment in a skill. It has limits.
In traditional MMO's time is an investment in accumulating things. Levels, gear, gold, exclusive content etc...these things all give additional advantages on top of a players natural skill. This makes time itself an advantage unique to MMO's, and much like a cash shop, it offers exclusive rewards.
In this way, I feel that the GW2 cash shop is actually MORE fair than a subscription.
I agree that their shop is more or less supplemental at this point. I don't view it as P2W at all (what's known).
FPS is a tad different in that it usually focuses on player skill, some weapons may have a higher rate of fire, a little more accuracy, etc.. but in the end it's all about twicth skill.
That's not the case in most RPG's and just about every MMO except a handful. Stats, gear and equipment, (character and itemized progression). Typically play a large part in "winning". Again it's the progression that gives the power, which is a reward for the time spent.
This is what I believe will make GW2 unique in a way, in that it focuses on horizontal progression at 80, rather than itemized. Player skill will be of greater effect in such a system.
I never played ROTGS in AOC but I heard that's what they focused on at that point of endgame, how was that? Anyone know?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
This makes time itself an advantage unique to MMO's, and much like a cash shop, it offers exclusive rewards.
In this way, I feel that the GW2 cash shop is actually MORE fair than a subscription.
Time is not an advantage. Everyone has the same amount to spend. 24hrs/day. That's it - everyone is the same. You can't "make" more time than anyone else. How you spend those 24hrs is up to you.
What's not up to you is to chose how valuable anyone else's time is. Judgments about the subjective quality of others' time spent are invalid.
Not everyone has the same amount of cash, by default, all the time. You can make more cash than someone else.
Cash is the variable advantage. Time is a constant
To put it another way-
Say a sword takes, on average, 1 hrs to grind out or is $10 in the cash shop
Fred makes $10/hr, Jim makes $20/hr
If they both buy the sword, Fred pays 1 hour in time, Jim pays 1/2 hour in time.
If there isn't a cash shop, they both pay 1 hour in time.
What is most fair?
To take it a step further, since we're talking about a game, say Jim is slightly better at the game. Now Fred pays 1 hour and Jim pays 1/2 hour again.
In both cases, Jim pays less.
The question is, since we're playing a game, should Jim be rewarded in that game for his better real life job or better in-game skill?
Asking that he be rewarded for his real life job makes the in-game skill pointless. It makes actually playing the game pointless. If you want to beat Jim at the game, get a better job.
Comments
Dread, the prepurchased is not meant for you if you think its stupid.
The prepurchase is for their old and new fans who had been supporting them in GW1 and now GW2.
No matter when the game launch, these fans will buy their games right, so Anet gave them extra stuff for purchasing early.
And also some people get to play Beta this weekend eventho they did not puchase anything.
Pardon my English as it is not my 1st language
I think all games will have this
Some will just have pay once and play to win as much as you want depending on our tolerance level
Some have pay to play to win but if you stop the pay you can't play to win until you pay to win lol.
No but seriousely though p2p is what people will call even lol. You don't pay you can't play to win.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
No game mechanic is preventing you from playing 40 hours in a week, try again.
Tera gave me all this things as well for $5, same with SWTOR, RIFT, LoTRO, I could go on and on but none of these games ever charged full price for spot in beta which is my whole point of contention here. Now add in the cash shop on top of that and this just reeks of NCSoft just wanting to take your money as fast as they can, but we are now totally off topic and I have said my peace on the beta.
Most people just aren't as paranoid as you, and until something happens to change their mind, the whole thing is a moot point.
While I agree, one thing is clear.
My concerns are not mirrored by this community.
I get it now. You guys want no rain on your parade.
I'll not be posting my anti-CS messages in GW2 boards.
Only thing I can do is hope you guys are right.
Because then If I am (And I really hope I am) wrong. Then we will have one kick ass game.
This, well said
Shouldn't have said that, because that is the in he uses to scream "Why do you place blind trust in Anet?" and "Fanboi!" and "you should be skeptical or you are an idiot".
Just saying.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
I should think P2P is the biggest scam imo.
I have paid around $500 or more after a few years of playing WOW.
Once I stopped paying subs, I cannot even access my own toons.
I would never ever play a P2P games again and also 90% of P2P games suck balls.
Pardon my English as it is not my 1st language
This is not about game mechanics...it is about value.
Again if a player 1 plays 40 hours a week he should be charged for those 40 hours.
If player 2 plays only 10 hours a week he should be charged for only 10.
If they are both paying the same amount then they should get the same amount of playtime for their money.
For example, for 15$ a month you get 150 hours of playtime...player 1 could use that up in one month...it might take player 2 a whole year but at least they would get equal value for their playtime.
Here's one for you:
Tthe game system is flawed because it doesn't account for real life.
Which means the game lacking a mechanic to even out playing time makes the game unfair.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
You sure have. You treat it like other companies that DO have bad cash shops. Even when Anet has a track record of a cash shop that doesn't imbalance gameplay.
Yes, you are right....But why is it OK?
They have already deviated from that model.
Because for whatever reason a ANET can do no wrong, just like Bioware before SWTOR but worse now.
But what I don't understand is, this is not unique, Yes, FunCom is an exception. they are infamous in the industry, But NCSoft is also. Are they not exerting a big influence on how this shop is to be run?
I just don't understand how someoen can read that post.....Assuming you believe what i said there and not think...wait a minute. I don't want that in my game.
I am sure NCSoft is without a doubt behind this.
While I agree, one thing is clear.
My concerns are not mirrored by this community.
I get it now. You guys want no rain on your parade.
I'll not be posting my anti-CS messages in GW2 boards.
Only thing I can do is hope you guys are right.
Because then If I am (And I really hope I am) wrong. Then we will have one kick ass game.
No you just don't state reasons as to why it's p2w, that's how you came out with it, there are many reasons it's not p2w when one puts their items beside the actual game, yet shouting it's p2w but not actually going beyond that has no sense. It is what it is right now that's not p2w, if you fear it may be in the future p2w then ate that's understandable. There has been people skeptics more so on oppose to the game itself, actually understand why it's not p2w and it's because they took note of mechanics first. It's almost fine to be an skeptic but when you state it's p2w as of right now when it's not and you know it your self. If I'm correct you've already stated why it isn't just by your reason in it being p2w lol.I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Shame Preserved
Making people pay for something that takes millions of dollars of investment and hundreds of thousands to upkeep is not a scam, it running a good business that serves to, among many other things, reduce inflation to appropriate levels, generate Global GDP, and most importantly provide the layman with something enyjoyable to do in his spare time.
Take you give me free crap attitude and get off the internet.
EDIT: To be less of a mean person
You are paying for access to the game when you want it and how long you want it, aside from downtimes. You just aren't using the paid time.
Stop crusading.
Yea right, that is why 90% of them going from P2P to F2P / Freemium.
Pardon my English as it is not my 1st language
I've said it before... This is not an Anet cash shop, this is a NcSoft cash shop.. I look at the similarities in these items and items in Korean f2p grinders and there is alot the same. Now maybe these items don't quite impact the game like they would in a Korean f2p grinder but that doesn't change the fact there design and in most cases functions work just like they do in those games. Alot of those games have ways to obtain the cash shop items through regular play as well. The RNG items just scream this kind of influence.
Everything after this point requires a tinfoil hat. I'm not claiming this to be true, just what I feel is a possibility.
I'm starting to wonder if some of the 'freedom' anet used to have from NcSoft might not be as strong as it used to be. I mean before NcSoft west was pretty much ran by 2 of the three founders of Anet. With them no longer at NcSoft it leaves just Mike to stand against any pressure from NcSoft to imploy these kind of things. And ultimately he reports to them.
Not completely true. That game was P2W, but many times, here I have stated it's not about individual items but the ovreall effect it has on the Meta Game. Look, I said I was done here. But I hate to be mis quoted or misrepresented. I know I have been pretty consistent with what I have said.
Again, it's fine. I am done with it.
What is F2P with GW2, it is called B2P please get your facts right, and then they will use the cash shop as a way to funnel in the money.
Your right- The companies aren't shifting the pay model to stay competitive in what is a shrinking traditional market and a growing mainstream market they are doing it becuase they have seen the error of thier ways and feel bad for exploiting all those people that payed for subs, that has to be the reason, laws of the market be damned.
No - not having enough time is the red herring here. Everyone always has the same amount of time. Time is equal. You can spend it on a MMO, you can spend it on learning guitar. People always toss insults along with crying about having less time - they're working, they have families. It means nothing. Does the guy learning guitar instead of playing the MMO deserve to pay his way to the top?
Furthermore - try applying the cash shop/time excuse to any other hobby. Anything. Woodworking. Go to a woodworking convention, push your way on stage with a fist full of $1s and say that you'd love to experience the hobby, and you just know you'd be really good, but you don't have the time to hone your skill because you have a job. Tell them - "here's $5 - I want a ribbon too. And I want a title in your hobby. I spend no time with it, but call me Master Woodworker"
Try it in the middle of a basketball game "Yo Leroy - I want to play. You guys already have 12 points, but it's not fair because I've been working. Here's $5 - I want 12 points and a league championship jersey. Also, I can't dribble for shit because I didn't have time to learn... so no more dibbling - I mean you can dribble of you want, but I'm not gonna. Just pretend I'm equal because I paid"
The only reason the time argument even begins to sound valid is because of the assumption that time spent gaming is just a waste of time. If that's how you feel, find something else to do. Don't cry because you want to look like the guy who spends all of his Hobby time in MMOs. Don't cheapen his time just because you want want want and want it now. Family, Kids, Jobs - those are all choices about how you spend your time. Do you tell people to babysit for free because they have no kids? Is that extra "kidless" time somehow yours now to assign value to? Yeah - it isn't. Nor should the value of my gaming time be yours to cheapen by buying my accomplishments.
If you flip your argument around, it sounds even more ridiculous. "Hey boss, I only worked 20 hours, but I need to be paid for 40 so here's a virtual magic sword." No - the currencies aren't and shouldn't be interchangable.
Your job/family/kids time is NOT worth more than my gaming time no matter how self rightously you squeal about it.
Lol wait the min this is getting confusing :P .
I am talking to Biribiri on P2P concept and nothing to do with GW2 bro, lol.
Pardon my English as it is not my 1st language
Wait, hang on though. Let's not target the OP, but the message. A single player RPG can't give you an advantage against other players (i.e. Play to win). It rewards time, in that eventually you will win the game, but your time isn't measured against that of others.
I'm not targetting the OP I'm targetting the mesage he sent, there's a huge difference there. My point wasn't about whether it effects others it's about how progression is nothing but a reward for time spent. You will never get anywhere in an RPG without spending time. The reward is all about how much time you spend, that is progression in a nutshell, Sub model or revenue stream has nothing at all to do with that.
Think about this, what is Anets chief message on RMT?
Is it not, nothing will give an advantage over time? Meaning progression is the reward for time spent?
My takeaway from ANets stance on the shop is that nothing in it should give an advantage over another PLAYER - not time. Maybe that's where our views are different. I view that to mean that everything in the shop is accessible to all players, and that nothing in it is considered exclusive and useful against another player.
Nevertheless, progression isn't limited to RPG's. Progression in an FPS means learning the maps, and getting better. That is progression that rewards time, but it's time as an investment in a skill. It has limits.
In traditional MMO's time is an investment in accumulating things. Levels, gear, gold, exclusive content etc...these things all give additional advantages on top of a players natural skill. This makes time itself an advantage unique to MMO's, and much like a cash shop, it offers exclusive rewards.
In this way, I feel that the GW2 cash shop is actually MORE fair than a subscription.
Time is not an advantage. Everyone has the same amount to spend. 24hrs/day. That's it - everyone is the same. You can't "make" more time than anyone else. How you spend those 24hrs is up to you.
What's not up to you is to chose how valuable anyone else's time is. Judgments about the subjective quality of others' time spent are invalid.
Not everyone has the same amount of cash, by default, all the time. You can make more cash than someone else.
Cash is the variable advantage. Time is a constant
I agree that their shop is more or less supplemental at this point. I don't view it as P2W at all (what's known).
FPS is a tad different in that it usually focuses on player skill, some weapons may have a higher rate of fire, a little more accuracy, etc.. but in the end it's all about twicth skill.
That's not the case in most RPG's and just about every MMO except a handful. Stats, gear and equipment, (character and itemized progression). Typically play a large part in "winning". Again it's the progression that gives the power, which is a reward for the time spent.
This is what I believe will make GW2 unique in a way, in that it focuses on horizontal progression at 80, rather than itemized. Player skill will be of greater effect in such a system.
I never played ROTGS in AOC but I heard that's what they focused on at that point of endgame, how was that? Anyone know?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
To put it another way-
Say a sword takes, on average, 1 hrs to grind out or is $10 in the cash shop
Fred makes $10/hr, Jim makes $20/hr
If they both buy the sword, Fred pays 1 hour in time, Jim pays 1/2 hour in time.
If there isn't a cash shop, they both pay 1 hour in time.
What is most fair?
To take it a step further, since we're talking about a game, say Jim is slightly better at the game. Now Fred pays 1 hour and Jim pays 1/2 hour again.
In both cases, Jim pays less.
The question is, since we're playing a game, should Jim be rewarded in that game for his better real life job or better in-game skill?
Asking that he be rewarded for his real life job makes the in-game skill pointless. It makes actually playing the game pointless. If you want to beat Jim at the game, get a better job.