Lol Dream you should not have ask that due to the cash shop already not being p2w because the game mechanics negate em anyway. If an level 80 buys an xp boost or a boost of any kind that all recolves around convince and not a stat difference is he going to be stronger than another level 80. No actually that applies to every aspect of the game. He just gets through his experience faster but still can't defeat you easily or at all depending on your skill. Boosters in this game just help you catch up faster but not really leave everyone else in the dust while using em. It is what it is but aye it's not a pay to win cash shop as of right now yet it will be said. Also cosmetic items are like a cooks outfit and what not as of right now. Can't wait to beta test it myself.
But the person who hits 80 faster due to an XP boost will be stronger than those who don't. Even if it's for a brief period in time, it still gives an advantage over others.
You're also assuming that XP boosts are the only form of boosts that will be offered in the cash shop.
B2P w/ pay to access is the cesspool of the gaming industry, stop being manipulated. F2P can get away with this manipulation since you aren't buying into it from the beginning. What about the players who purchased Tabula Rasa, and Auto Assault? I wonder how they feel, let them tell you what they think about B2P w/ pay to access. If any of them are smart they will tell you to stay away from any buy to play pay to access game with a 10 foot pole.
If the game is about winning then yes, if it isn't about winning then no.
If it is about winning then I ask this question.
What if you were limited on the amount of time you had to play the game checkers so that the game wasn't allowed to be finished unless you fed it more quarters?
Feed the game more quarters, in other words pay to access, and ultimately complete the game with a winner.
If it isn't about winning, then I have my own opinions and feelings towards B2P w/ pay to access which I already voiced above.
I don't think the question is is this model more win to play than this one, to play a game you'll probably have to pay, and you probably will want to win something, so. Also all those concept are pretty much personal, i will probably want to win something else than you, and probably want this toon to win something else than this one, for those who still give roles to their characters. So a thief would want to be a pvp god, a ranger an explorer or a crafter the richest guy.
Nha the question is are the designer abusing those aspect or not. Sub model was fine up until they push the level/gear grind to have people stick to their game and abuse it, bot because those game offered only that, and because they pushed those aspect so much it become obvious to everyone it became just silly. And its the same with cash shop, some cash shop have their game designed so you will become addicted to spending to get anywhere, and you'll end up spending 10 time what a sub game offer or almost. I say almost because a lot of p2w games actually offer you that +15 weapon you always dreamed to have playing sub game but never have been able to get.
i dont see cash shop as a p2w tho theres nothign that give you advantage from other players .
ex.(buy scroll xp boost) yeh you lvl up fast that other player dont mean advantage not even in pvp cause of skill unlock and all balance to 80 ,in wvw yeh you not gonna have some skill unlock so what? ic lot of video people whit not even full unlock beating people whit elite skill wish mena if you have elite you have the rest unlock .
also the same thing you can buy you can buy in game whit gold no big deal it take you more time so what? is not like you gonna play the game 2 time a week righ?
whit karma you can unlock same thing you can buy from Gem
tho arenanet just giving you an option if you wanna play.. good if you have $ to spend.. good either way is not imposible to get what you want if you have the money then go for it buy it if not just farm and have a good time enjoyng and having good time getting it ,its just option stop QQ if you dont have the money to buy it just do what your going to do in game wish is playing and have fun and farm to buy it simple as that
Originally posted by Creslin321 Originally posted by Zairu
Originally posted by Dream_Chaser Now, this is a thought that occurred to me that amused me greatly. We have people hating on the cash shop, but isn't a subscription technically pay to win as well? Due to there being no skill involved in the vast majority of MMORPG releases, it all comes down to how much time you play for. Let's say that I pay for one month out of four, I play, and I get some neat stuff. Let's say that you pay for all four moths and grind some really amazing shit. In PvP, let's say that gear decides things and the clear victory is yours. (This is the case in games like WoW.) Isn't that paying to win? Again, just a thought exercise.
what you are talking about would be called - P&P2W = pay and play to win. how is this a thought exercise? seems obvious. a thought exercise is something that makes people think. this is just dumb... Hehe...I agree. There were a lot of folks trying to act like the OP was profound and cerebral or some such...but I thought it was just silly. Paying to have ACCESS to something is not paying to win...sorry. The logic in the post would mean that someone who pays a monthly fee for a gym is paying to win in the world of fitness because he has access to work out equipment. It's ridiculous. No matter what kind of equipment he has access to, the access itself does NOTHING to make him more fit...and that's the dividing line. If you want to look at "P2W" in the land of fitness...look at steroids. These function very similarly to exp boosters that you buy at a CS .
I'd argue it's more like Comcast charging you $60 a month for cable, and then making all of the "good stuff", (HBO, Discovery, ESPN) available only to the "hardcore" subscribers who've already logged 40 hours a week (they've watched more advertisements after all).
Those who don't log 40+ hours only get to enjoy the "basic, basic" (WKAR, CNN, Public Programming, Nickolodeon). It's better than nothing, and sometimes entertaining, but not nearly as entertaining as the better programming.
The fitness example is just plain silly. Someone who joins a gym and goes every day for 4 hours is going to be stronger than someone who goes only a few days a week. The difference is in what that strength gets him. He is simply strong. He isn't given gold plated weights, or access to an exclusive 300lb bench club. He also isn't given a permit to wrestle all of the little guys in the gym and own them.
I was eagerly awaiting gw2 now with these cash shop announcements I will not even be buying the box. It's been said countless times but here it is again.
cash shop = Pay to Win
very simple:
I buy $1000 worth of cash shop "diamonds"
I sell them to other players for ingame gold
I now have enough gold to buy the best weapons/armor/statbonuses/enchants/food/potions/whatever
this took me about 20 minutes to do from entering credit card info to reselling "diamonds for ingame gold"
I just paid to win
The diamonds have already been talked about and will be in the cash shop ready for baddies to spend hundreds and thousands on to instantly have the best char. possible.
So long gw2 you were a nice dream if only for a moment.
Now, this is a thought that occurred to me that amused me greatly. We have people hating on the cash shop, but isn't a subscription technically pay to win as well? Due to there being no skill involved in the vast majority of MMORPG releases, it all comes down to how much time you play for.
Let's say that I pay for one month out of four, I play, and I get some neat stuff. Let's say that you pay for all four moths and grind some really amazing shit. In PvP, let's say that gear decides things and the clear victory is yours. (This is the case in games like WoW.) Isn't that paying to win?
Again, just a thought exercise.
Well here's a thought that amused me.
By what your saying, some people play and aquire some awesome stuff in a short amount of time by their affiliation with guilds etc. There are also some who has played for years and if it werent for the macro features they would be lost, and they will even tell you they can't do without their crutch. Well, what I'm getting at is this people play to lose x-D
It don't matter how much time you have invested and the great gear you have on, a well versed player will show you up. I've seen well geared players in WoW shown up by players with not so good gear. Even though the better geared player may win most of the time it is very difficult to take them down because they are simply skilled. Also the players that arent as geared may just not be into the whole raiding thing and simply craft or w/e. Naturally their armor is not the BEST but their skills are.
I was eagerly awaiting gw2 now with these cash shop announcements I will not even be buying the box. It's been said countless times but here it is again.
cash shop = Pay to Win
very simple:
I buy $1000 worth of cash shop "diamonds"
I sell them to other players for ingame gold
I now have enough gold to buy the best weapons/armor/statbonuses/enchants/food/potions/whatever
this took me about 20 minutes to do from entering credit card info to reselling "diamonds for ingame gold"
I just paid to win
The diamonds have already been talked about and will be in the cash shop ready for baddies to spend hundreds and thousands on to instantly have the best char. possible.
So long gw2 you were a nice dream if only for a moment.
Awwe........ Ok I'm over it, bye.
:-p
Cracks me up how people can knock the cash shop because of the gems but call themselves gamers or people that like to play mmorpg's. Name me ONE mmo that don't have RMT shouted in general chat, JUST ONE, PLEASE. If you play games like WoW tand have an issue with the cash shop then you clearly have issues, sorry :-(
I was eagerly awaiting gw2 now with these cash shop announcements I will not even be buying the box. It's been said countless times but here it is again.
cash shop = Pay to Win
very simple:
I buy $1000 worth of cash shop "diamonds"
I sell them to other players for ingame gold
I now have enough gold to buy the best weapons/armor/statbonuses/enchants/food/potions/whatever
this took me about 20 minutes to do from entering credit card info to reselling "diamonds for ingame gold"
I just paid to win
The diamonds have already been talked about and will be in the cash shop ready for baddies to spend hundreds and thousands on to instantly have the best char. possible.
So long gw2 you were a nice dream if only for a moment.
Here's a crazy idea!
How about you create a character, finish tutorial and join structured Pvp! Poof! Your char is suddenly lvl 80 with best gear possible and all skills/traits etc!!! And you didnt spent a cent in the CS
Now enter the PvP and your ass will be kicked - just as much as if you bought all the "best" items and join structured PvP
And in WvvWvW you wont make a difference... lvl 80 with best gear is almost non-different from lvl 79 with regular gear
I think I actually spent way more time reading and theorycrafting about MMOs than playing them
Comments
But the person who hits 80 faster due to an XP boost will be stronger than those who don't. Even if it's for a brief period in time, it still gives an advantage over others.
You're also assuming that XP boosts are the only form of boosts that will be offered in the cash shop.
B2P w/ pay to access is the cesspool of the gaming industry, stop being manipulated. F2P can get away with this manipulation since you aren't buying into it from the beginning. What about the players who purchased Tabula Rasa, and Auto Assault? I wonder how they feel, let them tell you what they think about B2P w/ pay to access. If any of them are smart they will tell you to stay away from any buy to play pay to access game with a 10 foot pole.
If the game is about winning then yes, if it isn't about winning then no.
If it is about winning then I ask this question.
What if you were limited on the amount of time you had to play the game checkers so that the game wasn't allowed to be finished unless you fed it more quarters?
Feed the game more quarters, in other words pay to access, and ultimately complete the game with a winner.
If it isn't about winning, then I have my own opinions and feelings towards B2P w/ pay to access which I already voiced above.
I don't think the question is is this model more win to play than this one, to play a game you'll probably have to pay, and you probably will want to win something, so. Also all those concept are pretty much personal, i will probably want to win something else than you, and probably want this toon to win something else than this one, for those who still give roles to their characters. So a thief would want to be a pvp god, a ranger an explorer or a crafter the richest guy.
Nha the question is are the designer abusing those aspect or not. Sub model was fine up until they push the level/gear grind to have people stick to their game and abuse it, bot because those game offered only that, and because they pushed those aspect so much it become obvious to everyone it became just silly. And its the same with cash shop, some cash shop have their game designed so you will become addicted to spending to get anywhere, and you'll end up spending 10 time what a sub game offer or almost. I say almost because a lot of p2w games actually offer you that +15 weapon you always dreamed to have playing sub game but never have been able to get.
So for me its not the tool but how you use it.
i dont see cash shop as a p2w tho theres nothign that give you advantage from other players .
ex.(buy scroll xp boost) yeh you lvl up fast that other player dont mean advantage not even in pvp cause of skill unlock and all balance to 80 ,in wvw yeh you not gonna have some skill unlock so what? ic lot of video people whit not even full unlock beating people whit elite skill wish mena if you have elite you have the rest unlock .
also the same thing you can buy you can buy in game whit gold no big deal it take you more time so what? is not like you gonna play the game 2 time a week righ?
whit karma you can unlock same thing you can buy from Gem
tho arenanet just giving you an option if you wanna play.. good if you have $ to spend.. good either way is not imposible to get what you want if you have the money then go for it buy it if not just farm and have a good time enjoyng and having good time getting it ,its just option stop QQ if you dont have the money to buy it just do what your going to do in game wish is playing and have fun and farm to buy it simple as that
what you are talking about would be called -
P&P2W = pay and play to win.
how is this a thought exercise? seems obvious. a thought exercise is something that makes people think. this is just dumb...
Hehe...I agree.
There were a lot of folks trying to act like the OP was profound and cerebral or some such...but I thought it was just silly.
Paying to have ACCESS to something is not paying to win...sorry. The logic in the post would mean that someone who pays a monthly fee for a gym is paying to win in the world of fitness because he has access to work out equipment. It's ridiculous. No matter what kind of equipment he has access to, the access itself does NOTHING to make him more fit...and that's the dividing line.
If you want to look at "P2W" in the land of fitness...look at steroids. These function very similarly to exp boosters that you buy at a CS
I'd argue it's more like Comcast charging you $60 a month for cable, and then making all of the "good stuff", (HBO, Discovery, ESPN) available only to the "hardcore" subscribers who've already logged 40 hours a week (they've watched more advertisements after all).
Those who don't log 40+ hours only get to enjoy the "basic, basic" (WKAR, CNN, Public Programming, Nickolodeon). It's better than nothing, and sometimes entertaining, but not nearly as entertaining as the better programming.
The fitness example is just plain silly. Someone who joins a gym and goes every day for 4 hours is going to be stronger than someone who goes only a few days a week. The difference is in what that strength gets him. He is simply strong. He isn't given gold plated weights, or access to an exclusive 300lb bench club. He also isn't given a permit to wrestle all of the little guys in the gym and own them.
I was eagerly awaiting gw2 now with these cash shop announcements I will not even be buying the box. It's been said countless times but here it is again.
cash shop = Pay to Win
very simple:
I buy $1000 worth of cash shop "diamonds"
I sell them to other players for ingame gold
I now have enough gold to buy the best weapons/armor/statbonuses/enchants/food/potions/whatever
this took me about 20 minutes to do from entering credit card info to reselling "diamonds for ingame gold"
I just paid to win
The diamonds have already been talked about and will be in the cash shop ready for baddies to spend hundreds and thousands on to instantly have the best char. possible.
So long gw2 you were a nice dream if only for a moment.
Well here's a thought that amused me.
By what your saying, some people play and aquire some awesome stuff in a short amount of time by their affiliation with guilds etc. There are also some who has played for years and if it werent for the macro features they would be lost, and they will even tell you they can't do without their crutch. Well, what I'm getting at is this people play to lose x-D
It don't matter how much time you have invested and the great gear you have on, a well versed player will show you up. I've seen well geared players in WoW shown up by players with not so good gear. Even though the better geared player may win most of the time it is very difficult to take them down because they are simply skilled. Also the players that arent as geared may just not be into the whole raiding thing and simply craft or w/e. Naturally their armor is not the BEST but their skills are.
So to answer the question.... Nah not really.
Awwe........ Ok I'm over it, bye.
:-p
Cracks me up how people can knock the cash shop because of the gems but call themselves gamers or people that like to play mmorpg's. Name me ONE mmo that don't have RMT shouted in general chat, JUST ONE, PLEASE. If you play games like WoW tand have an issue with the cash shop then you clearly have issues, sorry :-(
Here's a crazy idea!
How about you create a character, finish tutorial and join structured Pvp! Poof! Your char is suddenly lvl 80 with best gear possible and all skills/traits etc!!! And you didnt spent a cent in the CS
Now enter the PvP and your ass will be kicked - just as much as if you bought all the "best" items and join structured PvP
And in WvvWvW you wont make a difference... lvl 80 with best gear is almost non-different from lvl 79 with regular gear
I think I actually spent way more time reading and theorycrafting about MMOs than playing them