GW1 players that followed GW2 development knew that GW2 was going to be B2P like GW1. Also that GW2 would have an online store.
Guild Wars 1 Online Store :
I remember ppl being sceptical about the GW1 online store too when it was introduced. People were afraid that they were going to sell ingame items from there. But it turned out to be just the games, services (characterslots, storage expanders etc), costumes (easily distuingible from ingame armoursets) and PVP skill unlockers. There was a lot of discussion about the PVP skill unlockers (can't be used for your normal PVE character though). But later on it turned out to be nothing more then this.
Guild Wars 2 Online Store :
Anyway, the GW1 community knew from early on in GW2 development that GW2 was going to have an online store. Everyone expected it anyway and the devs also stated it. But the details remained unknown for a long time. Most players simply assumed a similar online store as in GW1. No one expected P2W at all (which it isn't imo). But also not buying ingame gold through online store (with gems).
The main upheaval with the GW2 store is about the gems being sold, not about GW2 having an online store (this was expected). The gems makes the GW2 fundamentally different from the GW1 store and I can understand why many are sceptical about this development. I'm one of them and I'm concerned that it this will wreck the ingame economy and divides the players between haves (gembuyers) and have-nots.
While I can't recall the exact date, some people do tend to forget that A.Net's Item shop for Guild Wars wasn't even released until after the second or third expansion which is easily two years into the game's lifespan. It wasn't even a big deal when it was released because you could only purchase cosmetic stuff and things that affect your account on a non-playing level. (ie: costumes and character slots, which you get more than enough anyways.)
The cash shop was there in the original Prophecies campain but it was only for account stuff - character slots, appearance change and, PvP character skill / gear unlocks.
After Nightfall they started adding cosmetic appearance sets and they added the full pet unlock.
The payment model to me is identical, because I didnt spend a cent in the original cash shop and I wont spend a cent in GW2s cash shop either. There are enough appearance items in both games to keep me entertained, and I dont really care about minor XP / karma boosts since theres no rush to an end game gear grind.
GW1 players that followed GW2 development knew that GW2 was going to be B2P like GW1. Also that GW2 would have an online store.
Guild Wars 1 Online Store :
I remember ppl being sceptical about the GW1 online store too when it was introduced. People were afraid that they were going to sell ingame items from there. But it turned out to be just the games, services (characterslots, storage expanders etc), costumes (easily distuingible from ingame armoursets) and PVP skill unlockers. There was a lot of discussion about the PVP skill unlockers (can't be used for your normal PVE character though). But later on it turned out to be nothing more then this.
Guild Wars 2 Online Store :
Anyway, the GW1 community knew from early on in GW2 development that GW2 was going to have an online store. Everyone expected it anyway and the devs also stated it. But the details remained unknown for a long time. Most players simply assumed a similar online store as in GW1. No one expected P2W at all (which it isn't imo). But also not buying ingame gold through online store (with gems).
The main upheaval with the GW2 store is about the gems being sold, not about GW2 having an online store (this was expected). The gems makes the GW2 fundamentally different from the GW1 store and I can understand why many are sceptical about this development. I'm one of them and I'm concerned that it this will wreck the ingame economy and divides the players between haves (gembuyers) and have-nots.
Atleast your concerned and not stating, though as of [right now] it's not a p2w in GW 2, I o understand being concerned though.
Sorry OP, just had to say something about this. I'm no veteran I do own GW 1 though but I just bout it this year, rules me out .
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Almost fine.... those keys to open reward chests.... i don´t like that!
they drop in game
Drop rate? 1%?
not from what I heard, but all that is stuff that will come out later.. apparently the keys drop, chests drop, chests have buffs in them at a decent rate.
Also they can be opened by butler golems, which are obtainable in game.
Have played GW since about a month after release and still do. My gametime is embarrasing even with afk'ing during events (9-rings anyone) and I have a 50/50 HoM char.
I have bought all the storagespace I could, mercenary pack, several character slots (to allow for PvP chars of every class) and a few costumes. Skill/item unlocks was not an option - I already had everything unlocked by just playing. Not interested in character remodelling and renaming seemed a bit to expensive compared to the other stuff.
While I did not need skill unlocks myself I think it worked well for those who started playing late and mostly wanted to PvP. Never considered it unfair and calling it P2W is laughable.
When I add everything up, games + expansion, convenience items (storage panes/char slots/mercenary pack) and the vanity items, my total cost is not even 25% of what 6 years of WoW would have cost me. (My total GW spendings is about $275 in over 6 years)
I doubt I will have problems witht the cashshop in GW2, even if I don't expect the same $/hour performance I had with Guild Wars.
We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!! (repeat ad infinitum)
I have played gw for a few years on and off. Seriously the main resaon i got gw was because its b2p game with a good storyline with the bonus that you can play it with your friends.
I never bought anything from the cs and dont think i ever will.
I assume you would like me to comment on my thoughts on gw2 cs as well... And frankly i dont not care about it. It doesnt matter if it is p2w or not. For my case im very much playing gw2 like a console rpg so what happens to the game world matter little to me. Whatever you need that cant be farm alone i believe you have friends that can help you get it.
But I'm an old veteran, I didn't overly love or hate Guild Wars. I just had a lot of fun with it.
My thoughts? It was much like Champions Online. I never felt bothered by it, in fact, I liked its presence. In both CO and GW I just had the feeling that sometimes they were giving me too much for free, way too much, and they were these small teams (at the time) giving their all to create this brilliant game. Not asking for a subscription, but just giving me a mutually beneficial way to donate.
That's how a good cash shop feels: It's like donations with perks. That's how GW felt.
In GW, I got a nice bonus mission (much like a DLC for a game like Mass Effect), I got some clothes, I purchased some character slots, and that was all good. In CO, I did the same. I bought some costume pieces, I bought some travel power reskins, and so on. It was great. Anohter good example is stuff like League of Legends and Shadow Era. They both give you way too much for free, and they're really fun games.
One of the things I found out with both LoL and SE is that the guys behind them are really fun, nice, helpful guys. I had to mail the SE guys about a problem I was having at one point and they got it fixed the same day. They were genuinely lovely people. And I was more than happy to toss money at them because of that. Good will goes a long way.
I believe Tycho Brahe of Penny Arcade said something like that.
A proper cash shop rests upon the good will of the players. If you're bringing in a lot of good will, you're going to be doing a lot of sales on the cash shop. If your cash shop is forcing people to pay in order to actually get anywhere in the game, then you're going to alienate your customers and put them off the game. Now, countless Korean cash-shop games have done this, we all know that. But sometimes I think that negative experiences with those sorts of games are all people have.
I just think that people who're overly negative haven't played GW1 or CO.
Will it turn out to be like a Korean grinder's cash shop? Or will it turn out to be like GW1/CO? I don't know. I don't have that answer. Of course, if it forces you to feel that you have to put down money in order to get fun out of it, then they're doing it wrong, and they need to reevaluate their shit quickly. It's a difficult balance. But the most important question is: Is the cash-shop needed to complete all the content in the game?
If you can complete all the content in the game without making a single cash shop purchase, and without feeling that it was necessary to, then you're on the right path. Whether a cash shop is good or not is all about how much it impedes the game it's attached to. In GW1, it didn't impede things at all. In fact, if they'd had more on there I would have bought more. I mean, that potion that could turn one into a Charr when in towns and had infinite uses. I would have bought that. If they'd put a costume up on there too that did a similar thing, I'd have bought that.
I bought a few costumes anyway.
I buy what I like, but I never felt forced to buy in GW1.
The feeling you go to a cash shop with is going to tell you how well they're handling things. If you open the cash shop with a feeling of reluctance, then something has gone wrong. If you open the cash shop with a feeling of happiness and contentment, and with a lot of good will that you'd like to share in the form of your own money, then that's working.
This is just my opinion on things, but it's as objective as it can be.
Ultimately, it comes down to something I've mentioned before - people like dignity. If you're milking someone, they may take it for a little while, but soon enough they'll be hesitant to buy your next game, or any game from your company. It's all about treating the customer with respect. Sell the right things and sell them at the right prices. Just do what you can to generate good will. And then it should all be okay.
I can't really think of anything more to add other than that.
but...those keys to open reward chests.... pay to loot?
i don´t like that!
Big deal.
There were loot chests scattered around the world in GW1 that could only be opened with specifc keys or lockpicks; both of which had low drop rate, or were available to buy from vendors with coin or faction currency. At no point did I ever feel like I was missing out on loot because I didn't have a lockpick on me, because 9 out of ten times the loot from the chests was pretty much useless to me except to salvage for crafting materials.
I never bought anything in the GW1 microtransaction shop, nor did I feel like I needed to.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Played GW 1 since Open Betas, bought only Prophecies and played through it, beta tested Factions, but was disgusted by the setting, beta tested Nightfall and enjoyed it.
However! I did not buy those expansions before I started Prophecies again with my wife and finished it thoroughly, then went through Nightfall & Factions, and in the mean time she got me to buy us a few "fluff" items (cosmetics + mission pack and one hero slot)
So, my experiences concerning the cash shop, from first one? -Absolutely F------- Divine!-
Only thing what could be bought off the cash shop, and would prove an advantage in PvE was Hero character slot (create your own char and tailor him/her to a hero [npc] what you can drag around, thus ending up with six elementalists or so on, and steamrolling through the content, as people have done.)
I didn't need to buy anything, but since I had some extra income, why not throw it there instead of another pack of beer?
The character above is my "main", created at the very day of release (if I remember right, can't be sure, my apologies), took long breaks with it, but still my favourite caster. Also got a warrior with 183 hours gametime, in 30 months (coop with wife, not a single hour solo.) Rest of the hours have come with another alt with wife, or pvp chars back in the days when I used to be "hardcore" there.
What about GW 2 cash shop, you might ask? Well, I don't see any problem with it, as long as they don't suddenly start selling more elite skills which make the game ridiculously easy - but I have faith in ANet, and I'm quite sure that even while I disagree with many design choises in GW 2, I will enjoy it very much.
I just thought a thread full of people who have a lot of experience with Arena.net and the Guild Wars franchise would be a good springboard for discusssion on the implementation of the business model in Guild Wars 2.
Fight ignorance and rumor with fact and experience.
I own Prophecies and Nightfall, maybe put in... few dozen hours?
I didn't like GW1.
By 2005 I was deep into WoW, and I just couldn't get over the control scheme in GW1 - felt too unresponsive.
My moral of the story, and reason for creating this thread beyond the above reasons was really to shed light on a question -
If Arena.net did the microtransactions + box price one way in Guild Wars 1, and it was quite successful for them...
Why would they significantly change the business model for Guild Wars 2?
I've been playing subscription based MMORPG's since 1999, so I have little experience with anything else.
The business model for the Guild Wars series does have me worried, but instead of freaking out and over-spinning every rumor and troll post, I find it logical to instead turn to people who have the experience to back up their thoughts on the matter.
It sounds like Arena.net really knows how to do this model well, well for them and well for their fans.
I'm sorry if you took that one line of mine in a bad way.
I don't distrust the nobility of your actions at all, trying to get some facts in here is good...
But up until people have played the game and we get a population explosion? Up until we have the facts?
I don't think that the a lot of the people we do have are going to listen to reason.
I mean, did you see that one thread about how it was so evil of ArenaNet to ensure employee happiness by buying them Christmas gifts? At the moment, it's cool for the traddies to hate on GW2. So your factual thread, as brilliant as it is, is going to be a bit lost in the storm.
It's a noble effort though, and one I appreciate.
Sadly, things won't turn around until we've had people who've played the thing.
First-hand experience often dispels illusions and delusions alike.
just to respond to the op: i loved the hell out of GW1. so much fun. but i never felt pressured (or interested) in buying anything out of the shop. not even the extra slots. but the shop was there, in a very unobtrusive but still noticeable way. not in your face, but not out of mind all the time. this balance is actually why i trust anet to pull it off again in GW2 (and why the mystic chests get my goat so much).
EDIT: and i don't see this as a massive change to their model. sure it's a big leap, but it's also a big leap from GW1 to GW2, in terms of scale, content, and cost.
Currently our guild doesn't support it, but the way I see it is that nothing actually makes a huge difference. The game as it is doesn't require anything from the cash shop, if anything the many of the items that are considered to be pay to win, are considered useless.
It will only become a problem if they start balancing around cash shop, in which case that would be frustrating, so I can see why some people would rather eliminate the potential threat before it takes hold.
I'm suprised that more people are not upset about the tome of influence, currently influence is one of the more difficult currencies to procure, and depending on the size of the guild and how many of those players pre-purchase Digital Deluxe, it will essentially set pace for every guild to come before them, essentially leaving the newer guilds with out access to the tome at a noticeable dissadvantage. Early success is never forgotten, which is why BC's applications have been in the overflow by the thousands.
I guess we'll just have to wait and see how everything turns out.
By 2005 I was deep into WoW, and I just couldn't get over the control scheme in GW1 - felt too unresponsive.
.....
Yeah, you lost me there. My apologies for this post going Off-Topic, but, this must be said!
Guild Wars 1 might've been more "clunky", but it sure felt far more responsive than WoW. In GW, you could dodge any projectile in pvp by taking a step to the side. Arrows weren't heat-seeking, archers had to stand still and take aim to shoot, instead of those wow hunters which run and shoot pew pews.
Mesmers could shut down / interrupt mages with wisely picked spells/skills/interrupts etc. And melee characters fighting toe-to-toe and bodyblocking sure was better than circlestrafe-lollipop-blackjacking-running through enemies The combat felt far more tactical, that's my point. And in my opinion, way more engaging with the level of detail in it.
EDIT: This of course comes down to personal preferences, but the story mode in GW 1 felt more like an traditional RPG than an MMO, which is why it was ten times better for me. With quests and a story which made sense to start with.
By 2005 I was deep into WoW, and I just couldn't get over the control scheme in GW1 - felt too unresponsive.
.....
Yeah, you lost me there. My apologies for this post going Off-Topic, but, this must be said!
Guild Wars 1 might've been more "clunky", but it sure felt far more responsive than WoW. In GW, you could dodge any projectile in pvp by taking a step to the side. Arrows weren't heat-seeking, archers had to stand still and take aim to shoot, instead of those wow hunters which run and shoot pew pews.
Mesmers could shut down / interrupt mages with wisely picked skills/interrupts etc. And melee characters fighting toe-to-toe and bodyblocking sure was better than circlestrafe-lollipop-blackjacking-running through enemies The combat felt far more tactical, that's my point. And in my opinion, way more engaging with the level of detail in it.
EDIT: This of course comes down to personal preferences, but the story mode in GW 1 felt more like an traditional RPG than an MMO, which is why it was ten times better for me. With quests and a story which made sense to start with.
EDIT: In this case, with the word Mage, I meant anything from an Elementalist to a Necromancer or even Ritualist.
EDIT 2: Damn, I just realized I'm both; old school and hardcore, for me the first thing what the word "Mage" brings to mind is an Arcane Caster from AD&D, back in the 2.0 rules, after that any generic fantasy. These days word Mage screams "WoW" to peoples.
I'm perfectly fine with it. EXP scrolls and confirmed to be purchasable in-game with Karma, just as they were purchasable ingame in GW1 as well. Chances are the other scrolls will be available ingame as well and in the event they aren't, it still doesn't matter to me. There's absolutely nothing in the cash shop I "need" and only one thing I want (more character slots).
Higher chance to find magical items scroll? Useless in a game where gear is largely irrelevant.
20% more exp for an hour? The game is not a grind, you'll be leveling fast and there's almost 0 leveling curve to begin with. Why anyone would want to rush it even more is beyond me. Irrelevant.
Crafting scroll? No clue what this does, but I hate crafting and gear can, once again, be gotten just from killing and gotten quite easily so once again, I couldn't possibly care less.
Ress stones? Who gives a damn. Only time this would be relevant is in a dungeon and even then it's a complete waste of money, why would you buy a ress-stone pack when it takes like 10 seconds to walk from a waypoint back to the spot where you died AND there's no boss lock-outs? You can just respawn and waltz right back into the battle while others are fighting. Useless item is useless.
The only potential ick-factor of the cash shop are those keys, however as of now there's no piece of loot in the game that's a "must have" and I personally would rather purchase some potentially nice item that popped out of the chest for gold from another player than waste money on that kind of gamble myself. Further, we still don't know if those things are available ingame as well or not, yet.
I'll be there from day one, with $80 for the deluxe and another $30 waiting to see how many more character slots that'll get me. I have little doubt the majority of the people screaming "I'm not buying GW2 because of cash shop!" will be there buying it up when no one's looking, so the flawed criticism is welcomed to continue *waves it off*
EDIT - BTW, in case you meant the GW1 item mall and not merely the GW1 microtransaction mentality as applied to GW2, I didn't mind it there either. I bought the expansions, character slots, and a costume I really liked, and that was more than enough for me to enjoy the game for many years, and still gives me something to go back to on occasion.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
I'm perfectly fine with it. EXP scrolls and confirmed to be purchasable in-game with Karma, just as they were purchasable ingame in GW1 as well. Chances are the other scrolls will be available ingame as well and in the event they aren't, it still doesn't matter to me. There's absolutely nothing in the cash shop I "need" and only one thing I want (more character slots).
Higher chance to find magical items scroll? Useless in a game where gear is largely irrelevant.
20% more exp for an hour? The game is not a grind, you'll be leveling fast and there's almost 0 leveling curve to begin with. Why anyone would want to rush it even more is beyond me. Irrelevant.
Crafting scroll? No clue what this does, but I hate crafting and gear can, once again, be gotten just from killing and gotten quite easily so once again, I couldn't possibly care less.
Ress stones? Who gives a damn. Only time this would be relevant is in a dungeon and even then it's a complete waste of money, why would you buy a ress-stone pack when it takes like 10 seconds to walk from a waypoint back to the spot where you died AND there's no boss lock-outs? You can just respawn and waltz right back into the battle while others are fighting. Useless item is useless.
The only potential ick-factor of the cash shop are those keys, however as of now there's no piece of loot in the game that's a "must have" and I personally would rather purchase some potentially nice item that popped out of the chest for gold from another player than waste money on that kind of gamble myself. Further, we still don't know if those things are available ingame as well or not, yet.
I'll be there from day one, with $80 for the deluxe and another $30 waiting to see how many more character slots that'll get me. I have little doubt the majority of the people screaming "I'm not buying GW2 because of cash shop!" will be there buying it up when no one's looking, so the flawed criticism is welcomed to continue *waves it off*
EDIT - BTW, in case you meant the GW1 item mall and not merely the GW1 microtransaction mentality as applied to GW2, I didn't mind it there either. I bought the expansions, character slots, and a costume I really liked, and that was more than enough for me to enjoy the game for many years, and still gives me something to go back to on occasion.
great post, keys drop in game so that should be of some help to ease the ick. I pretty much feel the way you do and I was very happy to hear that tidbit.
EDIT: In this case, with the word Mage, I meant anything from an Elementalist to a Necromancer or even Ritualist.
EDIT 2: Damn, I just realized I'm both; old school and hardcore, for me the first thing what the word "Mage" brings to mind is an Arcane Caster from AD&D, back in the 2.0 rules, after that any generic fantasy. These days word Mage screams "WoW" to peoples.
Tis' part of the canon law of Guild Wars, You don't call an Elementalist a Mage, you don't call a Necromancer a Warlock, you don't call a Ritualist a Shaman, and you most definitely never blame the Monk for your death, because you'll rue the day if you ever do.
It's mostly has to do with the time period at which the game was release, bitter rivalry and such.
At least you're not supposed to in public... pretty sure there was a massive epeen stroking going on in Kamadan It-D1, where everyone was boasting of their conquests in vanilla WoW. Then again during that time a large pack of italians were running around yelling "ROSA ROSA" at me. I guess there was some sort of law about having to wear pink in Italian districts.
great post, keys drop in game so that should be of some help to ease the ick. I pretty much feel the way you do and I was very happy to hear that tidbit.
Ari, you know how I feel about this game, but the chests being loot, needing a key, is in my face. Especially if it takes many more drops to open it without buying gems. The lootbags are simply beyond the pale.
I have no issue with cash shops. But only if I never know they exist unless I go out of my way to find out there is one. I played BSG online, which was literally p2w. This game isn;t even close to that. But still, if I pay $$$ for the game, I am entitled to everything the game has to offer, unless my skills aren't up to the tasks, not my wallet. And this is coming from someone with a high six figure income. Money is not the issue.
I wish the hardcore fans would unite against this, otherwise it may be the beginning of something much worse to come.
I'm not sure you can really call it pay to win unless the game is ultimately about winning. Is Guild Wars 2 ultimately about winning? Without even playing it, I am going to assume the answer is no. I assume there are more choices to the way you can play the game than just making it completely about winning.
I played GW at release and bought Factions when it came out. I don't recall there even being a shop at that time. However, If there was, I never used it. I didn't play it again for years though.
More recently, having read that some GW accomplishments carry through to give minor perks in GW2, I decided to revisit the original game and bought the Nightfall campaign and Eye of the North expansion. The cost of these is peanuts nowadays, so I did't mind at all throwing some money at the cash shop to buy all the skill packs to bring me up to date.
I didn't feel pressured but it suited my purpose, which was simply to play through those new campaigns as quickly and efficiently as possible. The new mercenary hero system allowed me to build a team that could solo all the PVE content including missions that in the past would have required a group. If I'd have been playing the game continuously over the past years, I probably wouldn't have felt the need to do it that way but it's great to have the choice.
I did a little bit of PvP with my guild when I played it the first time but I'm more of a PVE player and didn't bother when I returned to the game this time. The cash shop would certainly allow a player to become competetive more quickly than someone earning their skills by playing the campaign but in no way would I describe that as pay to win. Everyone ends up on a level playing field eventually. It's your choice which way you do it.
Quite honestly, I believe the old P2P model is on the verge of disappearing. B2P or Freemium with a cash shop is the way ahead. It's much more flexible and particularly suits the more casual player. There is such a great choice of games without a subscription now, it would take an exceptional one to make me pay a subscribtion for more than a month or two. I stopped playing SWTOR before the first sub was due because that was so mediocre. If it had been a B2P or Freemium game, I might have stuck it out longer and maybe even spent some more money if it had a freemium system like LotRO's for instance. As it is, I shall be buying both TSW and GW2 later this year but as long as TSW has a subscription, it will have to be outstanding to make me stay with it for any length of time. By contrast, GW2 may be something I keep returning to for years ahead.
I hated Runes of Magic - that was as blatant a case of Pay2Win as you could get. It was absolutely impossible to even be remotely competitive, even as a casual player just doing PVE-based stuff, without sinking a lot of money into the cash shop.
SoE's cash shops are borderline. EQ/EQ2, the vast majority of it is cosmetic, but they also sell XP pots, which have a huge impact on gameplay - especially in a game like EQ1 where after you hit max level there are literally thousands of XP-based Alternate Advancement points to be earned. Sure, eventually you get them all, and all you are really buying is time, but when it's coupled with a subscription fee (as it was at the time, it just recently went F2P, and a very limited F2P at that unless you essentially sub anyway), it really feels like double dipping, which is my biggest problem with it.
Nexon has essentially the same style cash shop as SoE - but all their games are F2P in the first place. I have absolutely no problem with that. Sure, you can save a bit of time with XP pots if you buy them, but you aren't being forced into a subscription fee as well, and I can support that.
ArenaNet's cash shop is largely like Blizzards - there's stuff on there, but nothing that really has any impact on the game. It sounds like GW2's will be a bit broader in scope, but just as frivolous.
I don't mind cash shops, especially in F2P/B2P games (they need money, I don't mind supporting products I like) - and I really do prefer an ala carte style purchasing arrangement - so long as it's fair (i.e., they aren't trying to gouge me for more than what a subscription would be, they aren't forcing Pay2Win, etc).
Comments
GW1 players that followed GW2 development knew that GW2 was going to be B2P like GW1. Also that GW2 would have an online store.
Guild Wars 1 Online Store :
I remember ppl being sceptical about the GW1 online store too when it was introduced. People were afraid that they were going to sell ingame items from there. But it turned out to be just the games, services (characterslots, storage expanders etc), costumes (easily distuingible from ingame armoursets) and PVP skill unlockers. There was a lot of discussion about the PVP skill unlockers (can't be used for your normal PVE character though). But later on it turned out to be nothing more then this.
Guild Wars 2 Online Store :
Anyway, the GW1 community knew from early on in GW2 development that GW2 was going to have an online store. Everyone expected it anyway and the devs also stated it. But the details remained unknown for a long time. Most players simply assumed a similar online store as in GW1. No one expected P2W at all (which it isn't imo). But also not buying ingame gold through online store (with gems).
The main upheaval with the GW2 store is about the gems being sold, not about GW2 having an online store (this was expected). The gems makes the GW2 fundamentally different from the GW1 store and I can understand why many are sceptical about this development. I'm one of them and I'm concerned that it this will wreck the ingame economy and divides the players between haves (gembuyers) and have-nots.
The cash shop was there in the original Prophecies campain but it was only for account stuff - character slots, appearance change and, PvP character skill / gear unlocks.
After Nightfall they started adding cosmetic appearance sets and they added the full pet unlock.
The payment model to me is identical, because I didnt spend a cent in the original cash shop and I wont spend a cent in GW2s cash shop either. There are enough appearance items in both games to keep me entertained, and I dont really care about minor XP / karma boosts since theres no rush to an end game gear grind.
Atleast your concerned and not stating, though as of [right now] it's not a p2w in GW 2, I o understand being concerned though.
Sorry OP, just had to say something about this. I'm no veteran I do own GW 1 though but I just bout it this year, rules me out
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I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Also they can be opened by butler golems, which are obtainable in game.
Have played GW since about a month after release and still do. My gametime is embarrasing even with afk'ing during events (9-rings anyone) and I have a 50/50 HoM char.
I have bought all the storagespace I could, mercenary pack, several character slots (to allow for PvP chars of every class) and a few costumes. Skill/item unlocks was not an option - I already had everything unlocked by just playing. Not interested in character remodelling and renaming seemed a bit to expensive compared to the other stuff.
While I did not need skill unlocks myself I think it worked well for those who started playing late and mostly wanted to PvP. Never considered it unfair and calling it P2W is laughable.
When I add everything up, games + expansion, convenience items (storage panes/char slots/mercenary pack) and the vanity items, my total cost is not even 25% of what 6 years of WoW would have cost me. (My total GW spendings is about $275 in over 6 years)
I doubt I will have problems witht the cashshop in GW2, even if I don't expect the same $/hour performance I had with Guild Wars.
We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!!
(repeat ad infinitum)
I have played gw for a few years on and off. Seriously the main resaon i got gw was because its b2p game with a good storyline with the bonus that you can play it with your friends.
I never bought anything from the cs and dont think i ever will.
I assume you would like me to comment on my thoughts on gw2 cs as well... And frankly i dont not care about it. It doesnt matter if it is p2w or not. For my case im very much playing gw2 like a console rpg so what happens to the game world matter little to me. Whatever you need that cant be farm alone i believe you have friends that can help you get it.
@BadSpock (OP)
You're asking too much of people.
But I'm an old veteran, I didn't overly love or hate Guild Wars. I just had a lot of fun with it.
My thoughts? It was much like Champions Online. I never felt bothered by it, in fact, I liked its presence. In both CO and GW I just had the feeling that sometimes they were giving me too much for free, way too much, and they were these small teams (at the time) giving their all to create this brilliant game. Not asking for a subscription, but just giving me a mutually beneficial way to donate.
That's how a good cash shop feels: It's like donations with perks. That's how GW felt.
In GW, I got a nice bonus mission (much like a DLC for a game like Mass Effect), I got some clothes, I purchased some character slots, and that was all good. In CO, I did the same. I bought some costume pieces, I bought some travel power reskins, and so on. It was great. Anohter good example is stuff like League of Legends and Shadow Era. They both give you way too much for free, and they're really fun games.
One of the things I found out with both LoL and SE is that the guys behind them are really fun, nice, helpful guys. I had to mail the SE guys about a problem I was having at one point and they got it fixed the same day. They were genuinely lovely people. And I was more than happy to toss money at them because of that. Good will goes a long way.
I believe Tycho Brahe of Penny Arcade said something like that.
A proper cash shop rests upon the good will of the players. If you're bringing in a lot of good will, you're going to be doing a lot of sales on the cash shop. If your cash shop is forcing people to pay in order to actually get anywhere in the game, then you're going to alienate your customers and put them off the game. Now, countless Korean cash-shop games have done this, we all know that. But sometimes I think that negative experiences with those sorts of games are all people have.
I just think that people who're overly negative haven't played GW1 or CO.
Will it turn out to be like a Korean grinder's cash shop? Or will it turn out to be like GW1/CO? I don't know. I don't have that answer. Of course, if it forces you to feel that you have to put down money in order to get fun out of it, then they're doing it wrong, and they need to reevaluate their shit quickly. It's a difficult balance. But the most important question is: Is the cash-shop needed to complete all the content in the game?
If you can complete all the content in the game without making a single cash shop purchase, and without feeling that it was necessary to, then you're on the right path. Whether a cash shop is good or not is all about how much it impedes the game it's attached to. In GW1, it didn't impede things at all. In fact, if they'd had more on there I would have bought more. I mean, that potion that could turn one into a Charr when in towns and had infinite uses. I would have bought that. If they'd put a costume up on there too that did a similar thing, I'd have bought that.
I bought a few costumes anyway.
I buy what I like, but I never felt forced to buy in GW1.
The feeling you go to a cash shop with is going to tell you how well they're handling things. If you open the cash shop with a feeling of reluctance, then something has gone wrong. If you open the cash shop with a feeling of happiness and contentment, and with a lot of good will that you'd like to share in the form of your own money, then that's working.
This is just my opinion on things, but it's as objective as it can be.
Ultimately, it comes down to something I've mentioned before - people like dignity. If you're milking someone, they may take it for a little while, but soon enough they'll be hesitant to buy your next game, or any game from your company. It's all about treating the customer with respect. Sell the right things and sell them at the right prices. Just do what you can to generate good will. And then it should all be okay.
I can't really think of anything more to add other than that.
Big deal.
There were loot chests scattered around the world in GW1 that could only be opened with specifc keys or lockpicks; both of which had low drop rate, or were available to buy from vendors with coin or faction currency. At no point did I ever feel like I was missing out on loot because I didn't have a lockpick on me, because 9 out of ten times the loot from the chests was pretty much useless to me except to salvage for crafting materials.
I never bought anything in the GW1 microtransaction shop, nor did I feel like I needed to.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Well, where to start!
Played GW 1 since Open Betas, bought only Prophecies and played through it, beta tested Factions, but was disgusted by the setting, beta tested Nightfall and enjoyed it.
However! I did not buy those expansions before I started Prophecies again with my wife and finished it thoroughly, then went through Nightfall & Factions, and in the mean time she got me to buy us a few "fluff" items (cosmetics + mission pack and one hero slot)
So, my experiences concerning the cash shop, from first one? -Absolutely F------- Divine!-
Only thing what could be bought off the cash shop, and would prove an advantage in PvE was Hero character slot (create your own char and tailor him/her to a hero [npc] what you can drag around, thus ending up with six elementalists or so on, and steamrolling through the content, as people have done.)
I didn't need to buy anything, but since I had some extra income, why not throw it there instead of another pack of beer?
http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/4258/gw2012032704395169.jpg - Link to my char / playing time
The character above is my "main", created at the very day of release (if I remember right, can't be sure, my apologies), took long breaks with it, but still my favourite caster. Also got a warrior with 183 hours gametime, in 30 months (coop with wife, not a single hour solo.) Rest of the hours have come with another alt with wife, or pvp chars back in the days when I used to be "hardcore" there.
What about GW 2 cash shop, you might ask? Well, I don't see any problem with it, as long as they don't suddenly start selling more elite skills which make the game ridiculously easy - but I have faith in ANet, and I'm quite sure that even while I disagree with many design choises in GW 2, I will enjoy it very much.
We?re all dead, just say it.
I just thought a thread full of people who have a lot of experience with Arena.net and the Guild Wars franchise would be a good springboard for discusssion on the implementation of the business model in Guild Wars 2.
Fight ignorance and rumor with fact and experience.
I own Prophecies and Nightfall, maybe put in... few dozen hours?
I didn't like GW1.
By 2005 I was deep into WoW, and I just couldn't get over the control scheme in GW1 - felt too unresponsive.
My moral of the story, and reason for creating this thread beyond the above reasons was really to shed light on a question -
If Arena.net did the microtransactions + box price one way in Guild Wars 1, and it was quite successful for them...
Why would they significantly change the business model for Guild Wars 2?
I've been playing subscription based MMORPG's since 1999, so I have little experience with anything else.
The business model for the Guild Wars series does have me worried, but instead of freaking out and over-spinning every rumor and troll post, I find it logical to instead turn to people who have the experience to back up their thoughts on the matter.
It sounds like Arena.net really knows how to do this model well, well for them and well for their fans.
Thanks all.
@BadSpock
I'm sorry if you took that one line of mine in a bad way.
I don't distrust the nobility of your actions at all, trying to get some facts in here is good...
But up until people have played the game and we get a population explosion? Up until we have the facts?
I don't think that the a lot of the people we do have are going to listen to reason.
I mean, did you see that one thread about how it was so evil of ArenaNet to ensure employee happiness by buying them Christmas gifts? At the moment, it's cool for the traddies to hate on GW2. So your factual thread, as brilliant as it is, is going to be a bit lost in the storm.
It's a noble effort though, and one I appreciate.
Sadly, things won't turn around until we've had people who've played the thing.
First-hand experience often dispels illusions and delusions alike.
just to respond to the op: i loved the hell out of GW1. so much fun. but i never felt pressured (or interested) in buying anything out of the shop. not even the extra slots. but the shop was there, in a very unobtrusive but still noticeable way. not in your face, but not out of mind all the time. this balance is actually why i trust anet to pull it off again in GW2 (and why the mystic chests get my goat so much).
EDIT: and i don't see this as a massive change to their model. sure it's a big leap, but it's also a big leap from GW1 to GW2, in terms of scale, content, and cost.
Currently our guild doesn't support it, but the way I see it is that nothing actually makes a huge difference. The game as it is doesn't require anything from the cash shop, if anything the many of the items that are considered to be pay to win, are considered useless.
It will only become a problem if they start balancing around cash shop, in which case that would be frustrating, so I can see why some people would rather eliminate the potential threat before it takes hold.
I'm suprised that more people are not upset about the tome of influence, currently influence is one of the more difficult currencies to procure, and depending on the size of the guild and how many of those players pre-purchase Digital Deluxe, it will essentially set pace for every guild to come before them, essentially leaving the newer guilds with out access to the tome at a noticeable dissadvantage. Early success is never forgotten, which is why BC's applications have been in the overflow by the thousands.
I guess we'll just have to wait and see how everything turns out.
Yeah, you lost me there. My apologies for this post going Off-Topic, but, this must be said!
Guild Wars 1 might've been more "clunky", but it sure felt far more responsive than WoW. In GW, you could dodge any projectile in pvp by taking a step to the side. Arrows weren't heat-seeking, archers had to stand still and take aim to shoot, instead of those wow hunters which run and shoot pew pews.
Mesmers could shut down / interrupt mages with wisely picked spells/skills/interrupts etc. And melee characters fighting toe-to-toe and bodyblocking sure was better than circlestrafe-lollipop-blackjacking-running through enemies The combat felt far more tactical, that's my point. And in my opinion, way more engaging with the level of detail in it.
EDIT: This of course comes down to personal preferences, but the story mode in GW 1 felt more like an traditional RPG than an MMO, which is why it was ten times better for me. With quests and a story which made sense to start with.
We?re all dead, just say it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muphry%27s_law
It never gets old.
This is no longer proper behaviour for forums, nor do I see where you're going with this, but... Lets have at it, for this one single post?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magician_%28fantasy%29
EDIT: In this case, with the word Mage, I meant anything from an Elementalist to a Necromancer or even Ritualist.
EDIT 2: Damn, I just realized I'm both; old school and hardcore, for me the first thing what the word "Mage" brings to mind is an Arcane Caster from AD&D, back in the 2.0 rules, after that any generic fantasy. These days word Mage screams "WoW" to peoples.
We?re all dead, just say it.
I'm perfectly fine with it. EXP scrolls and confirmed to be purchasable in-game with Karma, just as they were purchasable ingame in GW1 as well. Chances are the other scrolls will be available ingame as well and in the event they aren't, it still doesn't matter to me. There's absolutely nothing in the cash shop I "need" and only one thing I want (more character slots).
Higher chance to find magical items scroll? Useless in a game where gear is largely irrelevant.
20% more exp for an hour? The game is not a grind, you'll be leveling fast and there's almost 0 leveling curve to begin with. Why anyone would want to rush it even more is beyond me. Irrelevant.
Crafting scroll? No clue what this does, but I hate crafting and gear can, once again, be gotten just from killing and gotten quite easily so once again, I couldn't possibly care less.
Ress stones? Who gives a damn. Only time this would be relevant is in a dungeon and even then it's a complete waste of money, why would you buy a ress-stone pack when it takes like 10 seconds to walk from a waypoint back to the spot where you died AND there's no boss lock-outs? You can just respawn and waltz right back into the battle while others are fighting. Useless item is useless.
The only potential ick-factor of the cash shop are those keys, however as of now there's no piece of loot in the game that's a "must have" and I personally would rather purchase some potentially nice item that popped out of the chest for gold from another player than waste money on that kind of gamble myself. Further, we still don't know if those things are available ingame as well or not, yet.
I'll be there from day one, with $80 for the deluxe and another $30 waiting to see how many more character slots that'll get me. I have little doubt the majority of the people screaming "I'm not buying GW2 because of cash shop!" will be there buying it up when no one's looking, so the flawed criticism is welcomed to continue *waves it off*
EDIT - BTW, in case you meant the GW1 item mall and not merely the GW1 microtransaction mentality as applied to GW2, I didn't mind it there either. I bought the expansions, character slots, and a costume I really liked, and that was more than enough for me to enjoy the game for many years, and still gives me something to go back to on occasion.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
great post, keys drop in game so that should be of some help to ease the ick. I pretty much feel the way you do and I was very happy to hear that tidbit.
Tis' part of the canon law of Guild Wars, You don't call an Elementalist a Mage, you don't call a Necromancer a Warlock, you don't call a Ritualist a Shaman, and you most definitely never blame the Monk for your death, because you'll rue the day if you ever do.
It's mostly has to do with the time period at which the game was release, bitter rivalry and such.
At least you're not supposed to in public... pretty sure there was a massive epeen stroking going on in Kamadan It-D1, where everyone was boasting of their conquests in vanilla WoW. Then again during that time a large pack of italians were running around yelling "ROSA ROSA" at me. I guess there was some sort of law about having to wear pink in Italian districts.
Ari, you know how I feel about this game, but the chests being loot, needing a key, is in my face. Especially if it takes many more drops to open it without buying gems. The lootbags are simply beyond the pale.
I have no issue with cash shops. But only if I never know they exist unless I go out of my way to find out there is one. I played BSG online, which was literally p2w. This game isn;t even close to that. But still, if I pay $$$ for the game, I am entitled to everything the game has to offer, unless my skills aren't up to the tasks, not my wallet. And this is coming from someone with a high six figure income. Money is not the issue.
I wish the hardcore fans would unite against this, otherwise it may be the beginning of something much worse to come.
I'm not sure you can really call it pay to win unless the game is ultimately about winning. Is Guild Wars 2 ultimately about winning? Without even playing it, I am going to assume the answer is no. I assume there are more choices to the way you can play the game than just making it completely about winning.
I played GW at release and bought Factions when it came out. I don't recall there even being a shop at that time. However, If there was, I never used it. I didn't play it again for years though.
More recently, having read that some GW accomplishments carry through to give minor perks in GW2, I decided to revisit the original game and bought the Nightfall campaign and Eye of the North expansion. The cost of these is peanuts nowadays, so I did't mind at all throwing some money at the cash shop to buy all the skill packs to bring me up to date.
I didn't feel pressured but it suited my purpose, which was simply to play through those new campaigns as quickly and efficiently as possible. The new mercenary hero system allowed me to build a team that could solo all the PVE content including missions that in the past would have required a group. If I'd have been playing the game continuously over the past years, I probably wouldn't have felt the need to do it that way but it's great to have the choice.
I did a little bit of PvP with my guild when I played it the first time but I'm more of a PVE player and didn't bother when I returned to the game this time. The cash shop would certainly allow a player to become competetive more quickly than someone earning their skills by playing the campaign but in no way would I describe that as pay to win. Everyone ends up on a level playing field eventually. It's your choice which way you do it.
Quite honestly, I believe the old P2P model is on the verge of disappearing. B2P or Freemium with a cash shop is the way ahead. It's much more flexible and particularly suits the more casual player. There is such a great choice of games without a subscription now, it would take an exceptional one to make me pay a subscribtion for more than a month or two. I stopped playing SWTOR before the first sub was due because that was so mediocre. If it had been a B2P or Freemium game, I might have stuck it out longer and maybe even spent some more money if it had a freemium system like LotRO's for instance. As it is, I shall be buying both TSW and GW2 later this year but as long as TSW has a subscription, it will have to be outstanding to make me stay with it for any length of time. By contrast, GW2 may be something I keep returning to for years ahead.
As far as cash shops go:
I hated Runes of Magic - that was as blatant a case of Pay2Win as you could get. It was absolutely impossible to even be remotely competitive, even as a casual player just doing PVE-based stuff, without sinking a lot of money into the cash shop.
SoE's cash shops are borderline. EQ/EQ2, the vast majority of it is cosmetic, but they also sell XP pots, which have a huge impact on gameplay - especially in a game like EQ1 where after you hit max level there are literally thousands of XP-based Alternate Advancement points to be earned. Sure, eventually you get them all, and all you are really buying is time, but when it's coupled with a subscription fee (as it was at the time, it just recently went F2P, and a very limited F2P at that unless you essentially sub anyway), it really feels like double dipping, which is my biggest problem with it.
Nexon has essentially the same style cash shop as SoE - but all their games are F2P in the first place. I have absolutely no problem with that. Sure, you can save a bit of time with XP pots if you buy them, but you aren't being forced into a subscription fee as well, and I can support that.
ArenaNet's cash shop is largely like Blizzards - there's stuff on there, but nothing that really has any impact on the game. It sounds like GW2's will be a bit broader in scope, but just as frivolous.
I don't mind cash shops, especially in F2P/B2P games (they need money, I don't mind supporting products I like) - and I really do prefer an ala carte style purchasing arrangement - so long as it's fair (i.e., they aren't trying to gouge me for more than what a subscription would be, they aren't forcing Pay2Win, etc).