great post, keys drop in game so that should be of some help to ease the ick. I pretty much feel the way you do and I was very happy to hear that tidbit.
Ari, you know how I feel about this game, but the chests being loot, needing a key, is in my face. Especially if it takes many more drops to open it without buying gems. The lootbags are simply beyond the pale.
I have no issue with cash shops. But only if I never know they exist unless I go out of my way to find out there is one. I played BSG online, which was literally p2w. This game isn;t even close to that. But still, if I pay $$$ for the game, I am entitled to everything the game has to offer, unless my skills aren't up to the tasks, not my wallet. And this is coming from someone with a high six figure income. Money is not the issue.
I wish the hardcore fans would unite against this, otherwise it may be the beginning of something much worse to come.
I'd be happy to see those keys removed from the shop. I don't like the idea of coming across a chest I can't open and having to leave it or buy a key to open it. I'm not one to leave any chest unopened and having to rely on rare key drops isn't something that I look forward to. I'm also not known for my luck. Making those keys available from game vendors for a lot of gold or karma is what I would prefer because it gives me the opportunity to make sure I don't end up in the situation I described, even if I have to pay through the nose for it. And hey, it sounds like the game could use a few more gold sinks anyway.
Still not close to a deal breaker for me though.
As for buying loot bags in the shop, I'm actually for it completely. It's basically gambling with gems and if people want to throw their money down a hole like that, I'm not going to stop them. It ultimately means more development funds for me. The only reason I would have to be against it is if there is rare loot (like minis) that can only be obtained from them. If it's the same type of stuff you can get elsewhere in the game with a lucky drop, I'm content to let others spend their money going that route while I tough it out in the world for my chances.
Until it's proven that loot bags offer unique loot, I'm in favor of them being in the shop, even though I have no intention of ever buying them. Anyone else who does is just helping to fund more content for me later.
For me these boxes drop rate is whats gonna how badly I view them, if there something you get once and a while thats fine. However if the boxes drop at a frequent rate, and the keys not so frequent. You will always be in a situation where you've got boxes need keys, and get more boxes. From a gameplay perspective I would like it alot more if the chests were rare and the keys were common but that just wouldn't make sense to do from a Business perspective.
The thing is everything I've seen and heard leads me to believe these boxes are quite common drops I've even heard one person posting on obtaining 6 boxes and no key. That by itself means little with a beta game drop rates can be changed. But the fact that keys also sell in packs of 5-10 says to me there intent is to make the common as well. Plus there is the experience factor in how these kind of boxes have been handled in other games (sto) in the past.
If it gets to the point where through 'normal' play I'm getting a box a day and it takes say 3 days to get a key then I see this problem where these boxes can make inventory management its own meta game.
Someone mentioned in another post that he would save the boxes up and open them all with a golem. I was thinking the same thing...where the heck would you KEEP them all?!? I detest inventory management 'cause I'm so bad at it...I'm a packrat.
Well you could always buy more space!
These boxes are wonderful little marketing tools. Sure you can always sell them but I'd want a stock of em in my bank at the very least. Never know when they decide to stick something cool in them for a limited time.
I played GW for 5 years, and i found their model to be better than any other game i played (nearly half of the game list of this site). I dont see why people whine about karma boost exp boost and stuff, it doesnt make other players gain more powerful items in the end, it just makes you get them sooner, i do not see how this is an advantage, you played MMORPGs to rush to level 80 and pwn everyone with ur one shotting Macros. It will not bring any inbalance to world-pvp (not even mentioning competitive pvp as it is isolated), you get jumped to lvl80 anyways. As gems cannot get you skill points, players have to play all of those content to access all skills which is another thing that ensures the balance. Some people will want to max out lots of different race/professions (40 combinations) and that will be a real timesaver. Karma boost will not cause inbalance as well. in the end you will get the same items in the end... Influence spamming for guild bonuses are not that powerful and it looks they are easier to access by in game farming. Also one guild can not dominate whole mists.
You guys are whining because of nothing.
I do not care if others level up %25 faster than me (considering quest rewards is half of the exp source)
I do not care if others get karma faster than me, I play the PVE part to enjoy DE and explore tyria to get skill points and for my personal story slowly. And we will be on equal grounds in the end no matter what. It wont stop me and my guild from pwning others in pvp
Cash shop in GW1 = NO problem with p2w, bought character slots and storage. Didn't feel the need for anything else
Cash shop in GW2 = still up to debate. Some of the leaked items can be potential unbalanced in direction of P2W , but on the other hand , this is leaked content for testing.
I have faith in ArenaNet that they will get it right.
Did you feel preasured to make purchases after the initial box price in order to keep playing?
To play competitively in either PvE or PvP?
etc.
I bought quite a bit in GW1. Full bank slots, full mercenary hero slots, costumes, and misc unlocks.
Pressured? Nope. They put a bunch of it on sale. I'm a sucker for a good bargain.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
I've been playing GW 1 since day one. And I'm really not worried about the in-game store system. I don't want to call it a "cash shop" because to me cash shops are for the F2P games. In GW 1, I've never paid a cent and it DID NOT affect my gaming experience. All of the items they're offering are purely cosmetic. Like when the winter holiday comes, they would offer a winter themed outfit which you could wear over your existing armor without changing your stats. PURELY COSMETIC.
So, I really don't think people should be worrying about the in-game store system in GW2.
I did use GW1 shop to purchase all additional Xunlai chest tabs. Imo that was the only thing u needed from the store but some ppl used bunch of alts for storing goods. I dont have a problem with GW2 shop but its nothing like GW1 shop. GW2 shop is on the edge of p2w imo. The only real problem for me is the option to trade gems for gold, that will sooner or later fuck up the ingame economy.
I played Prophecies and Factions many many hours on a real casual level. It was years ago and I didnt even knew there was a CS or something, I kinda just played the game. (mostly pve)
I don't think I would have bought something that time, even if I knew it because I only had some pocket money from my parents.
But that is history, for now I am really looking forward to the CS. I have a job and enough money to spend some in a CS. I have the feeling I can decide now where I spend my money and how I want to spend it. I love the cosmetic stuff and little extra's that makes it that little bit easier.
If you love everything about GW2, but you don't like the CS because you think its p2w you really should think again. I honestly think this will not give players advantages over others. It makes life a little bit easier pve wise (but negligible), and pvp its no big deal at all.
I've been playing off and on for 7 years and I think it's the best bussiness model period. You get 100% of the content if you buy the box sales and you can buy bonuses (like the ability to use your other characters as heroes/npc party members, mission packs that let you play as a signature character in their past, etc.
At the same time though, I don't mind games that are pay to win (which GW2 is not and GW1 is definately not either). I keep saying it over adn over pay with time or pay with money. Time is much more valuble than money so there shouldn't be any complaints, especially with GW2. With GW1 you HAVE to pay money if you want a name change. With GW2 you can play the game and get anything you want from the cashshop. Paying money is faster, but that's the point. Spend time or spend money.
I think the only people that are butthurt over cashshops are the kids that aren't allowed to put money into. Or the people with backwards logic that think spending money on virtual items is stupid, yet they somehow think spending hundreds of hours sitting in front of a screen is brilliant. You can always make that money back, you can never get that time back. Why don't people complain about other people spending more time in that game than they do? Idiotic logic.
But yeah, GW1 is great in many ways with its payment model. Plenty of people already buy gold in that game and the economy is fine. People still sell and buy with gold and the prices ahve never been jacked up The only things worth a ton are the hard to get weapon skins. But thats all they are. Just skins. You can just get a plain looking max stat weapon and apply the stats that you want.
I'd be happy to see those keys removed from the shop. I don't like the idea of coming across a chest I can't open and having to leave it or buy a key to open it.
GW1 had locked chest and in general the keys that would open them would yield a higher value at the merchant then the items in the boxes. I always sell the keys, I would not consider buying them.
The biggest annoyance of chests in GW1 is their interference with loot-targetting.
I played pvp (more than 15 mill balth faction overall). In GW1 i had the faction for the kill or the win and i bought zaishen keys from it. Zaishen chest is one of the "best value" chests in game but i opened it rarely. I sold my keys to pvers (and the strongboxes after the pvp update) so i was able to get money without grinding. If i need something rare like Voltaic spear, Obsidian armor set or any valuable weapon set (opressors, destroyer, tormented, etc.) i can buy it. The best MMOs are where no need to grind your gear just do your best and you get it. Real life is enough as a grindfest MMO i don't want to do it in virtually because games are for fun not for work. I want to tie up that bastard who invented the grinding to MMOs.
Perhaps it's not relevant to ask GW1 veterans how they feel about ANet's implementation of the "cash shop" model in GW1 ?
It's pretty clear that the cash shop in GW2 is not going to be "exactly the same". Otherwise ANet would not be fudging around the actual details of what they are planning for GW2. They obviously intend to "extend the model", they are just nervous about how far they can push it and what effect it may have on pre-order sales...
Perhaps it's not relevant to ask GW1 veterans how they feel about ANet's implementation of the "cash shop" model in GW1 ?
It's pretty clear that the cash shop in GW2 is not going to be "exactly the same". Otherwise ANet would not be fudging around the actual details of what they are planning for GW2. They obviously intend to "extend the model", they are just nervous about how far they can push it and what effect it may have on pre-order sales...
I think its still good, at least we know what they should keep and have in GW2 since almost every single player find GW1 the best model they experienced, which i think is common knowledge, but whatever. Its always good that someone refresh common knowledge.
When I first tried GW1 during the E3 event I was hooked and the payment model was perfect for me. I had access to every following event as well. Between those event I was also able to try the OB for WoW and eventhough I didn't hate WoW it also didn't grab me like GW1 and on top of that a monthly sub. B2P > P2P in my book
I never felt pressured into buying anything from GW1's shop and the only thing I ever got from there was the free storage panel I think. Unless there was another free item there at some point as well.
I'm not a PvPer so skill unlock packs never mattered to me, but then again that was only helpful for PvP only characters. PvE characters still had to buy them one way or another. None of the other PvP only packs affected me either. Removing the need for pure PvPers to PvE was a good thing to me.
February of this year I finished my 50/50 HoM and got GWAMM. While getting there I still had the same kind of fun as back in the day.
Translating this into GW2 I won't be buying anything from the CS in GW2 for real money either. I will stock up on gems with ingame gold though. This to hopefully be able to buy future expansions through the CS. I will have to wait and see if that will be possible though. If it isn't I will have some gems to either sell for gold again or waste on character slots and storage space. Nothing I've seen for the GW2 CS says P2W to me.
To Bunks:
I would say that being able to open every chest just because you are a hero is more immersion breaking then not being able to open every single one. The big bad hero comes along and all chests decide to spring open? Needing a key is a lot more immersive. More times then not heroes wouldn't have had the right key if they did come across a chest.
I'll give some advice, instead of focusing on what you can't do focus on what you can and just have fun. Life will seem a lot brighter.
EDIT: In this case, with the word Mage, I meant anything from an Elementalist to a Necromancer or even Ritualist.
EDIT 2: Damn, I just realized I'm both; old school and hardcore, for me the first thing what the word "Mage" brings to mind is an Arcane Caster from AD&D, back in the 2.0 rules, after that any generic fantasy. These days word Mage screams "WoW" to peoples.
Tis' part of the canon law of Guild Wars, You don't call an Elementalist a Mage, you don't call a Necromancer a Warlock, you don't call a Ritualist a Shaman, and you most definitely never blame the Monk for your death, because you'll rue the day if you ever do.
It's mostly has to do with the time period at which the game was release, bitter rivalry and such.
At least you're not supposed to in public... pretty sure there was a massive epeen stroking going on in Kamadan It-D1, where everyone was boasting of their conquests in vanilla WoW. Then again during that time a large pack of italians were running around yelling "ROSA ROSA" at me. I guess there was some sort of law about having to wear pink in Italian districts.
I'm with Metanol on this. I played GW1 from launch and in PvP we referred to all casters as 'mages' even though there was no class or archtype specifically called 'mage'. Most GW players were more familiar with the term 'mage' from Final Fantasy and other single player RPGs, and not World of Warcraft.
Mages - Elementalist, Mesmer, Monk, Necromancer and Ritualist.
Basically anyone I could shut down on my domination Mesmer was a mage.
Never felt the need to buy anything. If someone donated money to me for the cashshop, i would buy extra storage place and that thing that turns your offline characters into heroes.
The rest of the stuff is just junk besides the extra character slots (but 8 is more than enough).
GW is the game that gave me most for the money ever. The other good value games (Daggerfall, Diablo, CIV 4, Heroes 3 and a few more) never even got close.
Someone mentioned in another post that he would save the boxes up and open them all with a golem. I was thinking the same thing...where the heck would you KEEP them all?!? I detest inventory management 'cause I'm so bad at it...I'm a packrat.
Did you feel preasured to make purchases after the initial box price in order to keep playing?
To play competitively in either PvE or PvP?
etc.
I started in Nightfall (This was before the super Trilogy offer). I didn't "feel pressured" to buy anything ever in the game. They don't even pressure you to buy the other games. (All three games are in seperate areas; and there is almost never a "You need to own Factions" message) I did end up buying the other games, but because I liked Nightfall and wanted more like it.
There is never any pressure at all to use the cash shop, and I never did.
Someone mentioned in another post that he would save the boxes up and open them all with a golem. I was thinking the same thing...where the heck would you KEEP them all?!? I detest inventory management 'cause I'm so bad at it...I'm a packrat.
Lucky for you, they stack.
Very glad to hear that they stack!
Fallen Earth also has treasure chests you can loot. These don't stack and also need a key that you can buy in online store or get as loot (very rare and only from bosses). So most ppl in that game end up with a full vault with treasure chests, but no key lol.
Comments
Well you could always buy more space!
These boxes are wonderful little marketing tools. Sure you can always sell them but I'd want a stock of em in my bank at the very least. Never know when they decide to stick something cool in them for a limited time.
I played GW for 5 years, and i found their model to be better than any other game i played (nearly half of the game list of this site). I dont see why people whine about karma boost exp boost and stuff, it doesnt make other players gain more powerful items in the end, it just makes you get them sooner, i do not see how this is an advantage, you played MMORPGs to rush to level 80 and pwn everyone with ur one shotting Macros. It will not bring any inbalance to world-pvp (not even mentioning competitive pvp as it is isolated), you get jumped to lvl80 anyways. As gems cannot get you skill points, players have to play all of those content to access all skills which is another thing that ensures the balance. Some people will want to max out lots of different race/professions (40 combinations) and that will be a real timesaver. Karma boost will not cause inbalance as well. in the end you will get the same items in the end... Influence spamming for guild bonuses are not that powerful and it looks they are easier to access by in game farming. Also one guild can not dominate whole mists.
You guys are whining because of nothing.
I do not care if others level up %25 faster than me (considering quest rewards is half of the exp source)
I do not care if others get karma faster than me, I play the PVE part to enjoy DE and explore tyria to get skill points and for my personal story slowly. And we will be on equal grounds in the end no matter what. It wont stop me and my guild from pwning others in pvp
1500+ hours veteran of GW1.
Cash shop in GW1 = NO problem with p2w, bought character slots and storage. Didn't feel the need for anything else
Cash shop in GW2 = still up to debate. Some of the leaked items can be potential unbalanced in direction of P2W , but on the other hand , this is leaked content for testing.
I have faith in ArenaNet that they will get it right.
I bought quite a bit in GW1. Full bank slots, full mercenary hero slots, costumes, and misc unlocks.
Pressured? Nope. They put a bunch of it on sale. I'm a sucker for a good bargain.
I've been playing GW 1 since day one. And I'm really not worried about the in-game store system. I don't want to call it a "cash shop" because to me cash shops are for the F2P games. In GW 1, I've never paid a cent and it DID NOT affect my gaming experience. All of the items they're offering are purely cosmetic. Like when the winter holiday comes, they would offer a winter themed outfit which you could wear over your existing armor without changing your stats. PURELY COSMETIC.
So, I really don't think people should be worrying about the in-game store system in GW2.
I dont have a problem with GW2 shop but its nothing like GW1 shop. GW2 shop is on the edge of p2w imo. The only real problem for me is the option to trade gems for gold, that will sooner or later fuck up the ingame economy.
I played Prophecies and Factions many many hours on a real casual level. It was years ago and I didnt even knew there was a CS or something, I kinda just played the game. (mostly pve)
I don't think I would have bought something that time, even if I knew it because I only had some pocket money from my parents.
But that is history, for now I am really looking forward to the CS. I have a job and enough money to spend some in a CS. I have the feeling I can decide now where I spend my money and how I want to spend it. I love the cosmetic stuff and little extra's that makes it that little bit easier.
If you love everything about GW2, but you don't like the CS because you think its p2w you really should think again. I honestly think this will not give players advantages over others. It makes life a little bit easier pve wise (but negligible), and pvp its no big deal at all.
I've been playing off and on for 7 years and I think it's the best bussiness model period. You get 100% of the content if you buy the box sales and you can buy bonuses (like the ability to use your other characters as heroes/npc party members, mission packs that let you play as a signature character in their past, etc.
At the same time though, I don't mind games that are pay to win (which GW2 is not and GW1 is definately not either). I keep saying it over adn over pay with time or pay with money. Time is much more valuble than money so there shouldn't be any complaints, especially with GW2. With GW1 you HAVE to pay money if you want a name change. With GW2 you can play the game and get anything you want from the cashshop. Paying money is faster, but that's the point. Spend time or spend money.
I think the only people that are butthurt over cashshops are the kids that aren't allowed to put money into. Or the people with backwards logic that think spending money on virtual items is stupid, yet they somehow think spending hundreds of hours sitting in front of a screen is brilliant. You can always make that money back, you can never get that time back. Why don't people complain about other people spending more time in that game than they do? Idiotic logic.
But yeah, GW1 is great in many ways with its payment model. Plenty of people already buy gold in that game and the economy is fine. People still sell and buy with gold and the prices ahve never been jacked up The only things worth a ton are the hard to get weapon skins. But thats all they are. Just skins. You can just get a plain looking max stat weapon and apply the stats that you want.
I played pvp (more than 15 mill balth faction overall). In GW1 i had the faction for the kill or the win and i bought zaishen keys from it. Zaishen chest is one of the "best value" chests in game but i opened it rarely. I sold my keys to pvers (and the strongboxes after the pvp update) so i was able to get money without grinding. If i need something rare like Voltaic spear, Obsidian armor set or any valuable weapon set (opressors, destroyer, tormented, etc.) i can buy it. The best MMOs are where no need to grind your gear just do your best and you get it. Real life is enough as a grindfest MMO i don't want to do it in virtually because games are for fun not for work. I want to tie up that bastard who invented the grinding to MMOs.
Perhaps it's not relevant to ask GW1 veterans how they feel about ANet's implementation of the "cash shop" model in GW1 ?
It's pretty clear that the cash shop in GW2 is not going to be "exactly the same". Otherwise ANet would not be fudging around the actual details of what they are planning for GW2. They obviously intend to "extend the model", they are just nervous about how far they can push it and what effect it may have on pre-order sales...
I think its still good, at least we know what they should keep and have in GW2 since almost every single player find GW1 the best model they experienced, which i think is common knowledge, but whatever. Its always good that someone refresh common knowledge.
When I first tried GW1 during the E3 event I was hooked and the payment model was perfect for me. I had access to every following event as well. Between those event I was also able to try the OB for WoW and eventhough I didn't hate WoW it also didn't grab me like GW1 and on top of that a monthly sub. B2P > P2P in my book
I never felt pressured into buying anything from GW1's shop and the only thing I ever got from there was the free storage panel I think. Unless there was another free item there at some point as well.
I'm not a PvPer so skill unlock packs never mattered to me, but then again that was only helpful for PvP only characters. PvE characters still had to buy them one way or another. None of the other PvP only packs affected me either. Removing the need for pure PvPers to PvE was a good thing to me.
February of this year I finished my 50/50 HoM and got GWAMM. While getting there I still had the same kind of fun as back in the day.
Translating this into GW2 I won't be buying anything from the CS in GW2 for real money either. I will stock up on gems with ingame gold though. This to hopefully be able to buy future expansions through the CS. I will have to wait and see if that will be possible though. If it isn't I will have some gems to either sell for gold again or waste on character slots and storage space. Nothing I've seen for the GW2 CS says P2W to me.
To Bunks:
I would say that being able to open every chest just because you are a hero is more immersion breaking then not being able to open every single one. The big bad hero comes along and all chests decide to spring open? Needing a key is a lot more immersive. More times then not heroes wouldn't have had the right key if they did come across a chest.
I'll give some advice, instead of focusing on what you can't do focus on what you can and just have fun. Life will seem a lot brighter.
I'm with Metanol on this. I played GW1 from launch and in PvP we referred to all casters as 'mages' even though there was no class or archtype specifically called 'mage'. Most GW players were more familiar with the term 'mage' from Final Fantasy and other single player RPGs, and not World of Warcraft.
Mages - Elementalist, Mesmer, Monk, Necromancer and Ritualist.
Basically anyone I could shut down on my domination Mesmer was a mage.
Never bought anything there, played 5 years.
Never felt the need to buy anything. If someone donated money to me for the cashshop, i would buy extra storage place and that thing that turns your offline characters into heroes.
The rest of the stuff is just junk besides the extra character slots (but 8 is more than enough).
GW is the game that gave me most for the money ever. The other good value games (Daggerfall, Diablo, CIV 4, Heroes 3 and a few more) never even got close.
Lucky for you, they stack.
I started in Nightfall (This was before the super Trilogy offer). I didn't "feel pressured" to buy anything ever in the game. They don't even pressure you to buy the other games. (All three games are in seperate areas; and there is almost never a "You need to own Factions" message) I did end up buying the other games, but because I liked Nightfall and wanted more like it.
There is never any pressure at all to use the cash shop, and I never did.
Very glad to hear that they stack!
Fallen Earth also has treasure chests you can loot. These don't stack and also need a key that you can buy in online store or get as loot (very rare and only from bosses). So most ppl in that game end up with a full vault with treasure chests, but no key lol.