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Two Open Worlds
n3verendR
Member UncommonPosts: 452
I've noticed a growing trend in the number of people and players that seem to believe that because WvWvW is in a separate part of the game than the PvE version, that GW2 is not open world.
You are correct.
But before we look at this post and try to examine it's "Waste of Time" ratio, let me try and hook you on MY way of thinking. You see, in many games there are instances. To call these instances part of the open world would be folly. However... to assume that in a game like Everquest, that Blackburrow wasn't part of the "Open World" in my mind would just be silly. Blackburrow, for those that do not know, was essentially a low level "Dungeon" that you zoned in to and that other players could join just like every other zone in the game.
One can theorize that Everquest had zones either A because of hard-ware limitations, or B because they didn't want things to happen in EQ like the ones that happened in WoW where you could kite the worst of bad-ass mobs into heavily populated areas. I for one just accepted the fact that I could go in to any of these zones and simply play with my friends and whatever other person may have gone in. They weren't divided by districts or exclusionary to the point of "Dungeons" in later games such as WoW - where you zone in and then you get a unique copy of that place for your group - and certainly weren't lacking in immersion. We won't talk about all the problems that stemed from everyone co-habitating these zones - just know that they were there.
So back to the primary subject. GW2 has a PvE world and a PvP world. All of these maps are divided by zones. Various zones in fact, that lead to shared instances just like the prior discussed ones in EQ. So, what is the big deal?
A lot, and I mean TONS of people consider it a deal breaker that you can't attack people while they do Dynamic Events. It isn't good enough for this crowd that the game simply provides them a comparable battlefield in the Mists. I wholly understand where this crowd is coming from too, but... there is a but...
You can exist solely in the WvWvW portion of the game. Why isn't that good enough? You can sit over there, spend 99.9% of your time sitting over there, and act like the PvE world doesn't exist. I for one love the fact that there are two separate worlds and I am coming from hard-core sandbox PvP games. So am I just more tolerable of a different way of doing things or am I missing something?
If you considered the WvWvW portion of the game to be the primary, then why do you care? Are you also going to be upset that you can't go into Dungeons and kill the bosses before another team makes it in there? Are you going to be dissatisfied when you can't go into someones bed-room and stab them for permadeath because you broke in their private instance and they didn't log in? How about not being able to shoot a pigeon out of the sky? Are you mad that you can't be known as the "Murderer of Divinities Reach"?
All that crap I just listed sounds great!
It's just not GW2. If you want open world PvP, then there is an open world to do that in. It's as open as EQ was on Tallon Zek, it just so happens that there is also a place for PvE players. So are you going to get mad that you can't transport yourself from a PvP server to a PvE server and then ruin peoples days with your highfalutin PvP ruleset? I don't see that scenario happening in any game, ever. The craizest part is, that I see that as the least unreasonable example I've listed.
You never cared before GW2, and I'll admit that no PvP servers makes my butt sore a bit but soreness fades, and I've come to terms with what is going to be an open world slug-fest for the glory and honor of everyone with the same color name as me. If I wanted to lol at the PvE servers from my perch of "PvP only" then I could do that the exact same way I did with WoW. No difference.
Those that think there IS difference... I only have this for you. Do you expect to be able to take your EvE Battleship and go blow people up that are playing Angry Birds? While that also sounds cool, it isn't going to happen. Do League Players expect to go into Dominion and have the same gameplay style as Classic? NO!
I have come to terms with the fact that if I want to chill and just play a casual game, I can do that with GW2 PvE. If I want to get the pulse up, I'll go defend a keep in WvWvW. If I want to E-Sport douche on people, I'll go try and build a Structured PvP team. If I want to do anything at all, there is an option for it. Ultimately, that is what GW2 comes down to. Options and Playstyles using the same character.
I'll ask one more time, do you really HAVE to leave WvWvW and it's castle sieges/unpredictable ganking/sandbox-esque construction of installations and vehicles to go and kill a guy doing Dynamic Events... in order to have fun with GW2?
People think it's fun to pretend your a monster. Me I spend my life pretending I'm not. - Dexter Morgan
Comments
I agree with the premise, but I still have to say that sounds like a pretty imaginative form of spin to me. The mistake you make is thinking everyone who wants true open world PVP wants to gank PVE oriented players. For me it's not that at all, I simply like the feeling it creates knowing you can be attacked anywhere at anytime. So in a sense it's not that I want to gank, it's that I want to be ganked at times.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Great point, but probably will be lost on most of the PvP crowd. They want things their way period. But I agree with what you've said, especially considering you can spend all of your time in V8 if you want and even level there. So what's the issue? I'll tell you what....some people just aren't happy unless they are griefing others. They would rather do that than play against other consensual PvP'ers. C'est la vie, that's not how it's going to be.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
So like he said.....stay in the PvP zones and level there. Grow up, so to speak, in V8 and around only other PvP'ers. I'm sure you'll get ganked plenty.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Whew, might wanna add a TL;DR somewhere down there. I looked at that psot and was like "Do i know enough about WvWvW/PVP, or do i need to read this....uhm...yeah i know enough." lol
The Deep Web is sca-ry.
Everyone wants things the way they like them when it comes to videogames. I don't think many people who hate the idea of being ganked understand what it is people like about this being in their games. AS they always jump to the "they just want to gank non-pvpers" conclusion. Non-PVPers wouldn't be in such a game/server for one, two it adds a true sense of danger to the world when it offers this, PVP also becomes a lot more dynamic, in that an area can go from peaceful to chaotic in seconds, PVE oriented worlds lack that.
When it's predetermined scenarios it can feel lacking in this department, things like WvW tend to be a lot more static.Even DAOC was like that on regular servers, you always knew what to expect. Same with WAR.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Grow up?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I'll be okay with open world PVP the day someone can show me a Role Playing GAme (single player) where a large evil is overtaking the world and your own party begins to attack one another on a consistant basis.
I'm not against it, love WvWvW it puts PVP in the game and seperates it from the RPG. Just like the mini Platform games or the "football" like mini game. Both of these are different types of genres and would look silly being an intracate part of the actual game. Imagine every where you went, you had to play a football game to do quests and such. That's about as much sense as openworld PVP makes.
"There's a huge dragon killing villagers"
Other Guy
I'm attacking you for your phat loot.
Its actually three open worlds if you count the personal story
GW2: triple the open world of regular mmos!
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
It actually happens alot in single player games, where the problems of their world turns regular people into thugs and you have to fight them when there not really part of the original "Bad guys"
In skyrim there were many factions still against you that didnt work for the dragons killing the villagers.
I'm all for pve and pvp servers in games but a lot of people complain about pvp in games ment for pvp, take Aion for example. is there pve in aion? yes. but the main part of the game was that the two factions split from eachother and are now at war.
but people complained so much that "rifting" was pretty much taken out of the game when it was a core feature of the game.
All in all if you dont want pvp join a game or a game with pve/pvp servers
edit* unless your talking about games without factions?
Well.. there is a reason, but it doesnt apply or wouldnt fit into GW2, it is primarly a design decision.
Ok, what is this reason? Lets say you got a functional, important, ingame economy, and withit a economy meta game. Think of gathering resources, build supplies(Armour, Weapon, Siege Engines, Towns), to support PvP(territorial control and anything like that), then resource gathering, crafting and trading become part of the pvp, they are actually pvp, but just if all resources, or all valuable resources are within the pvp territory(and World Bosses and Mobs would also count as resources in such a scenario). And then it would be a tremendous difference if there are two different world.. and i know it exactly, because it is what basicly happend with UO after the introduction of Trammel. The economy was more or less destroyed, extrem inflation and all that stuff, because all resources could be easily obtained with just enough investment of time, trading, crafting and resource gathering become imho to a grind. Thats the point.
BUT, GW2 was never designed like such a game, it isnt a sandbox, it isnt a warfare territorical control game, it doesnt have a healhty and important ingame economy(and it wouldnt work this way with a cash shop, but because of the more or less irrelevant ingame economy a cash shop is not much of a problem.. just as a sidenote). Crafting is just to make some shiny stuff, but it is not crucial for the game, nothing would happen, if noone would craft anything.
They seperated PvP and PvE, they even seperated resources with their introduced WvW supply chain as substitute for a real supporting economy, So GW2 is as you said at last a casual game with a lot of options for a lot of playertypes, the pvp and territorial warefare is not as deep as in EvE, their is not a rich and deep economy META game, but they have some incentives for PvP to give it some meaning.. basicly it is a lot like DAoC, which also got two seperated worlds, for PvE and PvP.. it is just not as hardcore about it as games like EvE.
Edit/PS: and all those comments about pvp crowd wants just griefing and all those "stupid" stuff is from ppl, who know nothing about pvp, or the crowed, who like to play in such an environment. As i said it above, it is not about griefing(griefer are there as much a minority as in a pve game, i would even insist that there are much more pve griefer than pvp griefer). It is about the economical balance, it is about risk vs. reward, it is about meaningful pvp, pvp for a purpose and not just for the sake of it. It and, it is foremost important for players, who dont want to combat alone, the economic game, or pvp crafting/gathering/trading is so rewarding, but it is only possible in a more or less ffa world, like EvE. And this is solely the reason, why EvE is as successful as it is, and why it is crowing since decade. Because there you got a lot more meaning in almost every action, a lot more drama, because there is something on stake. But.. i am really tired to sing the same song ever and ever again... i dont care anymore if you call all pvp player griefer, or if you understand or not... just flame away whatever you want. I am sick of it.
Give me an instance. I"ve never seen it happen. I"m talkingabout actual people who set out to be heroes attacking other heroes. It just doesn't happen. Even in Skyrim, factions warring with one another was a complete seperate main quest from the dragons. But even lets take Skyrim. When the two kingdoms fight one another, there are battlefields, it is organized. It isn't ganking someone on the playground like most mMOs have it be. I don't walk into a town in Skyrim that supports the king and instantly begin getting attacked. ]
The one thing I hated about rift, is even on the pve servers, u can pvp. And if you're teaming with people trying to kill one of the dragons big evil, and u accidently include an opposing player in your area effect, the pvp switces on and u're attacking one another.
That's why Rift and TOR were serious breaks from immersion for me. Open world PVP is never about supporting your faction, it's about pulling it out and seeing whose is larger. Structured pvp gives you goals and objectives.
WHich tends to become static after players figure out those goals and objectives and learn the best way to complete them, in many cases they become anti-PVP in that players avoid fights and just rush objectives that are unguarded.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Level, in other words....I was trying to be snide and biting.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
I'm no hardcore PvP'er, but I can see the flaws or lack of understanding in this strain of thought, and in a lesser way in the OP's argument. Some people simply want a game where its world is open for PvP, where you have PvP servers. That has nothing to do with ganking, definitely not for all PvP'ers, but simply for the sensation of a more dangerous world where you have to be more alert with everything that you do. To people who can handle the 'stress' of that added required alertness, open world PvP freedom adds to their gaming fun and excitement, something that every gamer plays games for: because of the fun it gives them.
The issue that I can see is, that 4 WvW zones is nowhere near a fully available open world where PvP is present and fully integrated along with all the other actions that are happening in the same game space. EVE, Darkfall, UO, AoC, Aion and WoW PvP servers, all those games had their charm with the open world PvP that was happening. Some people like it like that, a more dangerous gaming world, since no opponent can be as dangerous as other players.
GW2 won't use such an open world PvP mechanic. It has WvW PvP as compensation. For some that will be good enough, for others not.
And no, 4 WvW zones, however nice they are, I personally don't consider equal to an entire open world with PvP, it simply is a different gaming experience.
Heh, nice try, but no. If that were the case, then SWTOR would have 2 open worlds too with its class quests, or LotrO with its book quests.
Haven't you heard? apparently open world PVP is the worst thing that ever happened to the genre, and only gankers want it.
Just like how mounts should never be in any game.
Or how cash shops are a blessing which allows us people with 14 hour long jobs to fight agains't the evil players who can actually play the game for longer than 15 minutes, now RMT saves us from the PW2 players who have an advtanage in time for not having a shitty job in Mcdonalds.
Or how if you don't like 100% fair instanced e-sport fpesque PVP it's because you don't have enough skill.
Or how "Arenanet has show more of this game than every other game EVER made" even though the game still has NDA and you can get banned for uploading a video on youtube.
Some people are already lost in the hype, they aren't thinking for themselves, it's in GW2 it's good, if it's not, it's also good, arenanet can do no wrong.
They are also probably the ones who will quit first.
On the bight side, maybe after this trainwreck they are going to become one of the wisest posters on the forum, just look at DarkPony :P SWTOR was quite an experience.
"Esport with tournaments is for hardcore pvp'rs that want to be competitive. Openworld PVP with ganking and griefing is for casuals that just wants their pvp mixed with pve from time to time."
otacu
Okay that makes sense, that's why I asked and didn't jump to a conclusion on whether or not you were telling me to grow up, just didn't think that would have been necessary toward my post.:)
Like I said earlier I agree with the premise of the OP. I was just pointing out my opinion on the OP's open PVPer conclusion.
It makes sense why A-net are doing what they're doing, and as long as WvW has some dynamic encounters between players I"m happy. If it ends up like keep Warfare in WAR, or worse Ilum, I'll not be so happy.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
aw man you got me there hehe
What I meant to say is its actually FOUR open worlds if you count arenas also ;p
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
I lost all interest when he made a EQ comparison to WoW, and proceeded to state EQ didn't want things to be like WoW, uhmmm yeah: EQ came out long before WoW.
I really dont get where you going, in games like tor and rift the other faction is the enemy. dragons and others may be enimies also but not the reason your fighting.
Look at it like this in a single player its you against the A.I your the hero the dragon is the A.I or enemy.
in world pvp games your the hero and the "dragon" or enemy is the oposing faction.
again if your speaking on games like TERA where there are no factions i understand your point. but both tor and rift are faction based games
Well, if you want to see how the world design of GW2 will be, all you have to do is look at LOTRO. One zone designed specifically for PvP, the rest of the game completely separated from it. There are differences on how things work between those two zones of course, but the separation works in the same way. If you're ok with it, then GW2 is the game for you. If not, well, it's healthier to look elsewhere for fun instead of rage that the game is not what you envisioned it to be.
I actually agree with you. My fingers are crossed. I'm not anti-PvP at ALL, just anti-forced PvP. People should be able to choose whether they want to PvP in my opinion.
And I also think people should be able to choose whether they want to PvE.....which is why I like the option of leveling in PvP and WvWvW.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
I agree with the ability to chose, like gw2 is doing, or previously with pve and pvp servers being different. but some games i believe you chose when you purchast the game
Ffa open world in a game designed for it with the economy as a driving factor (eve style pvp if you will)
Or
Separated by area of the world territorial pvp with siege mechanics and 3 or 4 factions (daoc style pvp if you will)
Gw2 is taking the latter option, though I have some reservations, mainly with the 2 week reset.
How anyone can think flick a switch pvp servers in the likes if wow or rift is more pvp than gw2 is beyond me, this is just a lazy solution to tick a "got pvp" box and is in no way more pvp orientated than gw2, daoc and simmilar games.
Ffa pvp does work in SANDBOX games like eve & uo where you have a whole economic and guild advancement system to support it. With a themepark like wow its just a lazy substitute for real pvp content
How can these objectives and goals become static wen you have multiple means of acheiving objectives and goals combined with thousands of combinations of players with thousands of combinations of builds. You introduce an infintive amount of choices.
The variety is far more than standing in a bush near a quest area to kill players.
I'm not antipvp.
PVPers need to realize that pvp is a seperate game, a seperate genre closer to FPS's than RPGs and a game built on cooperation and teamwork could not have it in the main game. It needs to be in a seperate area.
If you are going to have pvp in agame the whole game has to be about open world pvp.