What I'm afraid of for WvW is exactly what his video showed. Lots and lots of PvE instead of PvP. I suck at PvP and I would much rather die alot to other people than siege keeps against NPC's. I did enough of that in WAR.
Well their keep seige design is based on Daoc / War and i agree in both of these games even PVP felt like PVE most of the times. Hitting empty keeps, avoiding the opposite side as much as possible, running in zerg from one empty keep to the other... i get such a deja vu feeling.
No really. The articles was from hands-on experience. Besides that, it mentions the good points and what can also possibly go wrong with WvW. How is that hyping it up?
Not likely. People are different, and have different goals and strategies. My friends and I plan on avoiding big groups to earn glory and have fun on smaller objectives. All players on the server are not necessarily going to stick together. In fact, from most opinions I've read, everyone's got their own plan in mind.
So did everyone before and during WAR, my alliance tried to keep it quiet when we were going to go for a fort but it ended up a massive zerg lagfest pretty quickly regardless.
Thats because WAR blew it, the PvP mechanics were so messed up, there were few strategies to use in WAR becuase of it, you were stuck doing one or two things.
In DAOC smaller groups did do well. Since GW2 is built on the same system, and it has many small objectives specifically for smaller guilds/groups, they should do even better.
Exactly. WAR had a horribly designedd map system. It's "frontiers" were set up more like battlegrounds. There was no way you could roam the map and use any type of guerilla warfare like you did in DaoC.
I'm not saying I know either way exactly how the WvW will be in GW2 ,, but please don't use that abomination of a game Warhammer as the foundation of any argument other than flawed game design.
Me personally, I'm hoping to roam in a group of 3 most likely and hit other groups, stragglers, supply lines, scouts, etc. That was a really fun part of DaoC for me: stopping reinforcements. the 8 man was fun minus the elitism, keep sieges were fun, and taking a full group vs. the zerg was a blast. So really, I'm just hoping WvW brings back all these options.
Not likely. People are different, and have different goals and strategies. My friends and I plan on avoiding big groups to earn glory and have fun on smaller objectives. All players on the server are not necessarily going to stick together. In fact, from most opinions I've read, everyone's got their own plan in mind.
So did everyone before and during WAR, my alliance tried to keep it quiet when we were going to go for a fort but it ended up a massive zerg lagfest pretty quickly regardless.
Thats because WAR blew it, the PvP mechanics were so messed up, there were few strategies to use in WAR becuase of it, you were stuck doing one or two things.
In DAOC smaller groups did do well. Since GW2 is built on the same system, and it has many small objectives specifically for smaller guilds/groups, they should do even better.
Exactly. WAR had a horribly designedd map system. It's "frontiers" were set up more like battlegrounds. There was no way you could roam the map and use any type of guerilla warfare like you did in DaoC.
I'm not saying I know either way exactly how the WvW will be in GW2 ,, but please don't use that abomination of a game Warhammer as the foundation of any argument other than flawed game design.
Me personally, I'm hoping to roam in a group of 3 most likely and hit other groups, stragglers, supply lines, scouts, etc. That was a really fun part of DaoC for me: stopping reinforcements. the 8 man was fun minus the elitism, keep sieges were fun, and taking a full group vs. the zerg was a blast. So really, I'm just hoping WvW brings back all these options.
Exactly. WAR had a horribly designedd map system. It's "frontiers" were set up more like battlegrounds. There was no way you could roam the map and use any type of guerilla warfare like you did in DaoC.
I'm not saying I know either way exactly how the WvW will be in GW2 ,, but please don't use that abomination of a game Warhammer as the foundation of any argument other than flawed game design.
Me personally, I'm hoping to roam in a group of 3 most likely and hit other groups, stragglers, supply lines, scouts, etc. That was a really fun part of DaoC for me: stopping reinforcements. the 8 man was fun minus the elitism, keep sieges were fun, and taking a full group vs. the zerg was a blast. So really, I'm just hoping WvW brings back all these options.
It is hard not to compare when game mechanics look so similar. Just saw one of the keep seige videos on this site and looks like WAR with GW2 skin.
As far as guerilla warfare is concerned since i played Order side and were badly outnumbered that is exactly what we used to do so i disagree that map designs in WAR didn't provide enough oppertunities for guerilla warfare tactics.
the keep siege looks alot easier and simplefied than WAR since I dont see any collision detect and no 2nd door to break down, no small corridor for defense. Nothing beats the final stand at the lord room like WAR and DAOC. If u dont know what I am talking about watch that movie Immortals, the small corridor they use to push out the army.
It's been a long time since I played but I recall DAOC being like that too, but I haven't played since 2003, so I may be wrong. I know we couldn't chat cross realm.
What Distopia is talking about is notoriety. Players earning this through combat either by killing and spreading their spam everywhere (Player X has been killed by yourname) or your small group being taken down by one of these "champion-of-the-realm-type"
On Galahad server before the Devon cluster and Ywain my Midgardian realm had its own heroes like Quickshot but we also feared Woeful an Thurgist from Albion and Jazz an enchanter from Hibernia ... we would use terms like "Woeful is out!!" or "Jazz incoming to Bled"
Players want to be able to make a name for themselves ... Hopefully we will be able to do this.... GW2's WvWvW is in no way Daoc's RvR but I am still looking forward to playing this
WvW is not RVR, you are not playing against a tribe/race/monsters that you only see in open world pvp zones. You will fight norse guys just like you who are teamed up with Chars etc.
Thats nothing like the feeling of defeating Hibernians who you only see when fighting them in contested regions, or raising your flag in a living landscape which is adjecent to your own realm.
Compare that to beating a server, there is no personnal connection, its not in the same league.
It's been a long time since I played but I recall DAOC being like that too, but I haven't played since 2003, so I may be wrong. I know we couldn't chat cross realm.
What Distopia is talking about is notoriety. Players earning this through combat either by killing and spreading their spam everywhere (Player X has been killed by yourname) or your small group being taken down by one of these "champion-of-the-realm-type"
On Galahad server before the Devon cluster and Ywain my Midgardian realm had its own heroes like Quickshot but we also feared Woeful an Thurgist from Albion and Jazz an enchanter from Hibernia ... we would use terms like "Woeful is out!!" or "Jazz incoming to Bled"
Players want to be able to make a name for themselves ... Hopefully we will be able to do this.... GW2's WvWvW is in no way Daoc's RvR but I am still looking forward to playing this
I understand exactly what you mean. I played Albs on MLF and there was a Hib guy aptly named "General" and his single 8 man wrought more damage than most zergs.
Your zerg might be able to kill some of the folks on the General's team, but normally they'd wipe the floor with most large groups unless they ran into one of the Albs better coordinated teams in the midst.
And like you said, warnings would go out when the General was out, and cheers would go up if you saw the message scroll across the screen that someone had killed the General.
I don't think it makes as much difference in GW2 because they plan on rotating the servers every few weeks, no real way to build up such noteriety and familiariity.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The class system is shit. It 100% undeiniable. People atm might think nahh its not that bad... believe me you'll see that it is after a month or two.
It easy to understand why tho. Lack of diversity. Which seems odd seeing as every classes is massivly diverse, with the ability to fullfill any role or the lack there of roles. In this way there is no real diversity between classes in function, just play (which is at least nice).
They should have just taken another page from old mmos and made highly diverse and specializable classes/characters. (So that there is a reason to work together for greater outcome, there is replay value, and from one toon to the next the game experinces differs largely).
Da hell? lol
Roles, i think stuctured roles are important.
Dps, healer, cc, buff, tank, etc.
These allow for a greater varity of experince with in a single game. As you roll new character to experince them, which keeps people playing the game longer. Also because these classes with structured roles are just a part of the equation it means grouping is highly advantagious, thus encouraging group play .
More?
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Exactly. WAR had a horribly designedd map system. It's "frontiers" were set up more like battlegrounds. There was no way you could roam the map and use any type of guerilla warfare like you did in DaoC.
I'm not saying I know either way exactly how the WvW will be in GW2 ,, but please don't use that abomination of a game Warhammer as the foundation of any argument other than flawed game design.
Me personally, I'm hoping to roam in a group of 3 most likely and hit other groups, stragglers, supply lines, scouts, etc. That was a really fun part of DaoC for me: stopping reinforcements. the 8 man was fun minus the elitism, keep sieges were fun, and taking a full group vs. the zerg was a blast. So really, I'm just hoping WvW brings back all these options.
It is hard not to compare when game mechanics look so similar. Just saw one of the keep seige videos on this site and looks like WAR with GW2 skin.
As far as guerilla warfare is concerned since i played Order side and were badly outnumbered that is exactly what we used to do so i disagree that map designs in WAR didn't provide enough oppertunities for guerilla warfare tactics.
I played Order and Destro side. Guerilla tactics in Warhammer came nowhere close to Old Frontiers and Even NF Daoc. The travel routes kept you boxed in much more in War than in DaoC. You were pretty much funneled into certain lanes and any roaming RvR in warhammer wasn't even close to the freedom you had in DaoC. Having warcamps staged next to the keeps in question took out much of this dynamic. . Was some bit of Roaming and Guerilla warfare possible? Sure. But basically you're comparing the two is like comparing pop warner football to the NFL.
Exactly. WAR had a horribly designedd map system. It's "frontiers" were set up more like battlegrounds. There was no way you could roam the map and use any type of guerilla warfare like you did in DaoC.
I'm not saying I know either way exactly how the WvW will be in GW2 ,, but please don't use that abomination of a game Warhammer as the foundation of any argument other than flawed game design.
Me personally, I'm hoping to roam in a group of 3 most likely and hit other groups, stragglers, supply lines, scouts, etc. That was a really fun part of DaoC for me: stopping reinforcements. the 8 man was fun minus the elitism, keep sieges were fun, and taking a full group vs. the zerg was a blast. So really, I'm just hoping WvW brings back all these options.
You are being a little optimistic.
World PvP or RvR is usually gank or be ganked.
WvWvW will follow this tradition.
When you went into RvR,, yea living or dying was the point. You either won or lost. If you were xp'n for the nice frontier bonuses you knew the risks. That was the enticement, so if you got ganked, you called friends.
As for RvR on a large or group scale you can't call it being ganked. You just lost.
Even with zergs smaller groups could take on and wipe out larger groups due to DaoC actually getting certain mechanics right unlike games like WoW and everything else since then.
If you didn't play DaoC you wouldn't understand. If you did play DaoC and you're calling RvR "ganking" then you never ran in a good group, never learned to pvp effectively, and were probably one of those that just ran with the zerg spamming nukes.
What Distopia is talking about is notoriety. Players earning this through combat either by killing and spreading their spam everywhere (Player X has been killed by yourname) or your small group being taken down by one of these "champion-of-the-realm-type"
On Galahad server before the Devon cluster and Ywain my Midgardian realm had its own heroes like Quickshot but we also feared Woeful an Thurgist from Albion and Jazz an enchanter from Hibernia ... we would use terms like "Woeful is out!!" or "Jazz incoming to Bled"
Players want to be able to make a name for themselves ... Hopefully we will be able to do this.... GW2's WvWvW is in no way Daoc's RvR but I am still looking forward to playing this
Jazz was a funny dude,, and I remember the Woeful zerg... good times
I played Order and Destro side. Guerilla tactics in Warhammer came nowhere close to Old Frontiers and Even NF Daoc. The travel routes kept you boxed in much more in War than in DaoC. You were pretty much funneled into certain lanes and any roaming RvR in warhammer wasn't even close to the freedom you had in DaoC. Having warcamps staged next to the keeps in question took out much of this dynamic. . Was some bit of Roaming and Guerilla warfare possible? Sure. But basically you're comparing the two is like comparing pop warner football to the NFL.
You are trying to make it sound worse than it really is. Infact a lot of guilds so sick of zerging that we started roaming in small groups and did lots of gurilla warfare.
I played Order and Destro side. Guerilla tactics in Warhammer came nowhere close to Old Frontiers and Even NF Daoc. The travel routes kept you boxed in much more in War than in DaoC. You were pretty much funneled into certain lanes and any roaming RvR in warhammer wasn't even close to the freedom you had in DaoC. Having warcamps staged next to the keeps in question took out much of this dynamic. . Was some bit of Roaming and Guerilla warfare possible? Sure. But basically you're comparing the two is like comparing pop warner football to the NFL.
You are trying to make it sound worse than it really is. Infact a lot of guilds so sick of zerging that we started roaming in small groups and did lots of gurilla warfare.
I played at release, when warhammer actually had a population. Again, you obviously were not there during the Old Frontiers days of DaoC and probably not even in NF. There were wide open spaces and travel routes, there were multliple angles of attack and surprise over all the maps. Warhammer has you funneled in soo much more through masses of mobs, land areas that are impassable and the grand old level requirements/restrictions on all the maps. If the "RvR' wasn't as bad as I'm making it sound, the game wouldn't have gone into the toilet on in the first 6 months, and then on lifesupport and f2p in such a short time span.
If it weren't as bad as I'm making it sound, people wouldn't have been searching for a good RvR experience the last 1-2 years just hoping that some game company would get it right,, because it's been a niche that hasn't been claimed by any game since DaoC.
How much is arenanet paying you guys to write this fluff?
Don't get me wrong I plan to get GW2 day one but this site seems so biased I can't take anything I read here seriously. Read between the lines here people and you will have nothing you don't see in every other major mmo out there. What i really care about is the games overall execution, not "innotative" features that have all been done before.
Very little intrest in a pvp system that the devs said its imbalanced. Sorry to those who have generic comp setups you prob wont be able to partake in these very well. Ill pass. My 60 bucks and the 60 bucks per expansion will go to something else i guess. Hope the game does good but they will not see my patranige.
Dear me.... The video was great but bloody hell, how can the reviewer say with any seriousness and I quote " we are kicking ass, I'm with a great PvP group" when earlier he admits theres no enemy players involved in the keep seige? Sorry but I lol'd into my vodka!!
Get some PC's into the mix and kill players and not have to cut the vid down to shorten the process un-apposed of beating down the keep door... Nothing but guards!!
I actually think underpopulation is going to be the big issue. Not for the entirety of the game, just for WvWvW. People say otherwise, but open-pvp is not a draw for a majority of gamers for the long haul. I worry that WvWvW will have its draw for only so long before people actually shift their focus to structured pvp and PvE mainly. In GW1, there was no open PvP, but factions PvP was about as close to it as you get; large-scale battle between groups of people. It's been all but empty for the longest time, it's only the heavily structured PvP that retains its draw for people and even that is only for farming of faction for keys. There's a quest that involves pvp in the Jade Sea, my main has had it in their list for literally years because there's never enough people queing up to do it.
WvWvW is going to be really popular at first, but I'm not sure it will have lasting power, particularly in the West. Non-PvPers will shy away when they start getting ganked (and yes, you can gank, don't think just because you're boosted to 80 that you can't get your ass utterly devoured by someone who truly is 80), the competetive PvPers will flock to structured as they did in GW1, the PvE'ers naturally won't give a damn about it, and the rest will realize they're only playing with themselves after a while, lose interest, and run back to EVE. I ~sincerely~ hope this is not the case, but this has been the trend in every other mmo for quite some time and I'd be (pleasantly) surprised if Anet managed to change that.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
Comments
Well their keep seige design is based on Daoc / War and i agree in both of these games even PVP felt like PVE most of the times. Hitting empty keeps, avoiding the opposite side as much as possible, running in zerg from one empty keep to the other... i get such a deja vu feeling.
All you're doing is Hyping the game into doom...
No really. The articles was from hands-on experience. Besides that, it mentions the good points and what can also possibly go wrong with WvW. How is that hyping it up?
Looking forward to EQL and EQN.
Exactly. WAR had a horribly designedd map system. It's "frontiers" were set up more like battlegrounds. There was no way you could roam the map and use any type of guerilla warfare like you did in DaoC.
I'm not saying I know either way exactly how the WvW will be in GW2 ,, but please don't use that abomination of a game Warhammer as the foundation of any argument other than flawed game design.
Me personally, I'm hoping to roam in a group of 3 most likely and hit other groups, stragglers, supply lines, scouts, etc. That was a really fun part of DaoC for me: stopping reinforcements. the 8 man was fun minus the elitism, keep sieges were fun, and taking a full group vs. the zerg was a blast. So really, I'm just hoping WvW brings back all these options.
You are being a little optimistic.
World PvP or RvR is usually gank or be ganked.
WvWvW will follow this tradition.
It is hard not to compare when game mechanics look so similar. Just saw one of the keep seige videos on this site and looks like WAR with GW2 skin.
As far as guerilla warfare is concerned since i played Order side and were badly outnumbered that is exactly what we used to do so i disagree that map designs in WAR didn't provide enough oppertunities for guerilla warfare tactics.
the keep siege looks alot easier and simplefied than WAR since I dont see any collision detect and no 2nd door to break down, no small corridor for defense. Nothing beats the final stand at the lord room like WAR and DAOC. If u dont know what I am talking about watch that movie Immortals, the small corridor they use to push out the army.
It's been a long time since I played but I recall DAOC being like that too, but I haven't played since 2003, so I may be wrong. I know we couldn't chat cross realm.
What Distopia is talking about is notoriety. Players earning this through combat either by killing and spreading their spam everywhere (Player X has been killed by yourname) or your small group being taken down by one of these "champion-of-the-realm-type"
On Galahad server before the Devon cluster and Ywain my Midgardian realm had its own heroes like Quickshot but we also feared Woeful an Thurgist from Albion and Jazz an enchanter from Hibernia ... we would use terms like "Woeful is out!!" or "Jazz incoming to Bled"
Players want to be able to make a name for themselves ... Hopefully we will be able to do this.... GW2's WvWvW is in no way Daoc's RvR but I am still looking forward to playing this
WvW is not RVR, you are not playing against a tribe/race/monsters that you only see in open world pvp zones. You will fight norse guys just like you who are teamed up with Chars etc.
Thats nothing like the feeling of defeating Hibernians who you only see when fighting them in contested regions, or raising your flag in a living landscape which is adjecent to your own realm.
Compare that to beating a server, there is no personnal connection, its not in the same league.
I understand exactly what you mean. I played Albs on MLF and there was a Hib guy aptly named "General" and his single 8 man wrought more damage than most zergs.
Your zerg might be able to kill some of the folks on the General's team, but normally they'd wipe the floor with most large groups unless they ran into one of the Albs better coordinated teams in the midst.
And like you said, warnings would go out when the General was out, and cheers would go up if you saw the message scroll across the screen that someone had killed the General.
I don't think it makes as much difference in GW2 because they plan on rotating the servers every few weeks, no real way to build up such noteriety and familiariity.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Roles, i think stuctured roles are important.
Dps, healer, cc, buff, tank, etc.
These allow for a greater varity of experince with in a single game. As you roll new character to experince them, which keeps people playing the game longer. Also because these classes with structured roles are just a part of the equation it means grouping is highly advantagious, thus encouraging group play .
More?
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
I played Order and Destro side. Guerilla tactics in Warhammer came nowhere close to Old Frontiers and Even NF Daoc. The travel routes kept you boxed in much more in War than in DaoC. You were pretty much funneled into certain lanes and any roaming RvR in warhammer wasn't even close to the freedom you had in DaoC. Having warcamps staged next to the keeps in question took out much of this dynamic. . Was some bit of Roaming and Guerilla warfare possible? Sure. But basically you're comparing the two is like comparing pop warner football to the NFL.
Really looking forward to W v W.
Looks like a lot of fun.
When you went into RvR,, yea living or dying was the point. You either won or lost. If you were xp'n for the nice frontier bonuses you knew the risks. That was the enticement, so if you got ganked, you called friends.
As for RvR on a large or group scale you can't call it being ganked. You just lost.
Even with zergs smaller groups could take on and wipe out larger groups due to DaoC actually getting certain mechanics right unlike games like WoW and everything else since then.
If you didn't play DaoC you wouldn't understand. If you did play DaoC and you're calling RvR "ganking" then you never ran in a good group, never learned to pvp effectively, and were probably one of those that just ran with the zerg spamming nukes.
Jazz was a funny dude,, and I remember the Woeful zerg... good times
Sounds cool, me rikey a rot.
PVP rules the world.
i used to make fun of this game but this WvW idea makes me a fan.
played a million mmo's
You are trying to make it sound worse than it really is. Infact a lot of guilds so sick of zerging that we started roaming in small groups and did lots of gurilla warfare.
I played at release, when warhammer actually had a population. Again, you obviously were not there during the Old Frontiers days of DaoC and probably not even in NF. There were wide open spaces and travel routes, there were multliple angles of attack and surprise over all the maps. Warhammer has you funneled in soo much more through masses of mobs, land areas that are impassable and the grand old level requirements/restrictions on all the maps. If the "RvR' wasn't as bad as I'm making it sound, the game wouldn't have gone into the toilet on in the first 6 months, and then on lifesupport and f2p in such a short time span.
If it weren't as bad as I'm making it sound, people wouldn't have been searching for a good RvR experience the last 1-2 years just hoping that some game company would get it right,, because it's been a niche that hasn't been claimed by any game since DaoC.
How much is arenanet paying you guys to write this fluff?
Don't get me wrong I plan to get GW2 day one but this site seems so biased I can't take anything I read here seriously. Read between the lines here people and you will have nothing you don't see in every other major mmo out there. What i really care about is the games overall execution, not "innotative" features that have all been done before.
Slow-ass game. I couldn't even bare to watch a whole minute of the video.
Looks so freakin boring
Very little intrest in a pvp system that the devs said its imbalanced. Sorry to those who have generic comp setups you prob wont be able to partake in these very well. Ill pass. My 60 bucks and the 60 bucks per expansion will go to something else i guess. Hope the game does good but they will not see my patranige.
Dear me.... The video was great but bloody hell, how can the reviewer say with any seriousness and I quote " we are kicking ass, I'm with a great PvP group" when earlier he admits theres no enemy players involved in the keep seige? Sorry but I lol'd into my vodka!!
Get some PC's into the mix and kill players and not have to cut the vid down to shorten the process un-apposed of beating down the keep door... Nothing but guards!!
Puuurlease !
I actually think underpopulation is going to be the big issue. Not for the entirety of the game, just for WvWvW. People say otherwise, but open-pvp is not a draw for a majority of gamers for the long haul. I worry that WvWvW will have its draw for only so long before people actually shift their focus to structured pvp and PvE mainly. In GW1, there was no open PvP, but factions PvP was about as close to it as you get; large-scale battle between groups of people. It's been all but empty for the longest time, it's only the heavily structured PvP that retains its draw for people and even that is only for farming of faction for keys. There's a quest that involves pvp in the Jade Sea, my main has had it in their list for literally years because there's never enough people queing up to do it.
WvWvW is going to be really popular at first, but I'm not sure it will have lasting power, particularly in the West. Non-PvPers will shy away when they start getting ganked (and yes, you can gank, don't think just because you're boosted to 80 that you can't get your ass utterly devoured by someone who truly is 80), the competetive PvPers will flock to structured as they did in GW1, the PvE'ers naturally won't give a damn about it, and the rest will realize they're only playing with themselves after a while, lose interest, and run back to EVE. I ~sincerely~ hope this is not the case, but this has been the trend in every other mmo for quite some time and I'd be (pleasantly) surprised if Anet managed to change that.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."