I certainly promise to leave you guys alone, if the game turns out to replace vertical gear progression with vertical prestige progression.
As much as I loathe the cheap approach to gear progression in modern MMOs, I can only see myself loathing prestige progression more.
If people really think content will be more fun because you remove/reduce the reward, I think they have a surprise coming.
It worked for GW1, which is one of top 10 best selling PC games of all time, why would it not work for GW2?
Seriously, if anyone wants to know how gear progression will work in GW2, just go play GW1. It works, get over it and move on.
I strongly disliked GW1, so obviously I don't think it worked.
But if you liked GW1 - I think you're right, you might just like GW2 more.
If the reason you didnt like GW1 is because you had the best gear available to you as soon as you hit level 20, and only had to grind for appearance gear, then yes - GW2 is not the game for you.
There are people still playing GW1 for PvE many years after the last expansion was released, because there is heaps to do. But if you need to have forced gear progression to make you feel better than new players then the game really wont appeal to you.
From my perspective, it just removes the barrier to having fun. A good player can jump straight into a harder dungeon with friends without grinding gear for 3 months to be at a level where they are acceptable to join. The reward for playing games should be the content itself, not some sort of epeen stroking gear score contest. And I say that from the perspective of someone who usually has the best in slot raid gear, not a casual player.
If you want to bash people who don't necessarily think GW2 is the second coming, that's ok.
But if you really want to understand why, you should probably try not to put me in a tiny box to suit your vision of what I must be like to not love GW2 before it's released.
As I already said, I LOATHE the traditional vertical gear progression - and it's not at all what I want from the genre.
I want a REASON to continue playing, and as hollow as gear progression is - it's at least a reason. It's just a reason that's not enough for me.
Now, GW2 TAKES that reason and replaces it with "prestige" progression. It doesn't actually ADD anything new at all. It just expects you to enjoy playing the same kind of content present in all other themepark MMOs without actually giving you a new reason to.
This means you can now enjoy content for the sake of content, which is what so many people apparently think is a briliant innovation. I think it's completely opposite to what should have been done.
Content can only last for so long, no matter how great it is - and no matter what you call it. A "dynamic event" will not change the nature of it being the same content recycled or changed up. Just like Rift invasions didn't change that you were doing the same things over and over and over. That's an illusion.
You're right, GW2 doesn't look like it's for me - and that's no big deal. I'm just trying to understand why so many people think it's going to be so fantastic. So far, I can only assume that you really like doing the same things over and over, and you don't actually care about progression. That's fair enough, but very strange to me.
Every MMO player ever have been already doing the same thing over and over.
Professions in every MMO have been the same thing over and over, tank tanks, healer heals, dps dps same thing over and over, you are sometimes just standing there still doing the same thing over and over.
Gear progression is also doing the same thing over and over, PVP to get that special PVP currency , doing the same arena over and over getting your PVP currency so that you can buy that one piece of gear.
Raiding is also doing the same over and over, every week, the same dungeon, the same boss, the same method of taking it down.
In every single MMO available, the concept is to do the same thing over and over and over, until you are tired then you continue to do the same thing over and over again.
GW2 is popular because they are trying to say, Dungeons will have 3 explorable modes that offers different routes within the same dungeon. So atleast you can visit the Same dungeon but do it 3 different ways.
GW2 also said that instead of doing this quest over and over with your many alts, the next time you reach this place there will be a different chain available, and you will be in the same place doing different things.
GW2 also shown that fighting mobs, you can be using pistols and killed this mob from afar, or you can use this Axe and fight it close up, or use conditions and condition it to death. But you have to dodge and move away from Enemy attacks. So you might be able to kill it in 5 minutes one time, and 10 minutes the next.
This is why its popular, this is why people follows GW2, because it offers them something that is no longer the same thing over and over. Or atleast not as repetitive.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
I agree with dklong. You play to achieve something. Most often loot. Thing with gw2 is and other pvp focused games is that under 1 % of the game population have pvp skills. 99% will Soon think no way i am playing more as i am getting My butt kicked by the 1%. I ll still play since i am a ex wow glad
I'm interested in gw2 because there will be LESS doing the same thing over and over than your typical wow clone.
WvW by its very nature and scale will give a different experience to every evenings play in comparison to grinding pvp tupperware boxes over and over for tokens in other games
Outdoor Pve with the chaining events offers more variety than kill 10 griblies
"You're right, GW2 doesn't look like it's for me - and that's no big deal. I'm just trying to understand why so many people think it's going to be so fantastic. So far, I can only assume that you really like doing the same things over and over, and you don't actually care about progression. That's fair enough, but very strange to me."
Sometimes a thing is fun no matter how many times you do it (within reason). There are many games I never tire of - poker, croquet, canasta, pool, Sins of a Solar Empire, chess and Zuma to name a few. What is interesting about those games are the different kinds and combinations of strategy one utilizes in "winning", not that you get anything special at the end that you carry with you to the next game, other than an increased understanding of strategy tactics. You walk away having had a good time and, if playing with others, a sense of comraderie and satisfaction.
In the games that have other players that I'm competing with or against, the interesting and enjoyable aspect of the game is increasing both personal and interpersonal game skill and tactics, and reacting to variations thrown at you by other players and chance events.
In WoW's Alterac Valley, I wasn't playing for any rewards (although they offered them) I just enjoyed the exploration of tactics, skill and finding interesting games-within-the game to explore (and imagine my limitations as a priest). With the combat combo system of GW2, and the ability to switch weapons and other battle aspects, there is a depth and meaning to tactics and skill unavailable to gear-progression holy trinity models. IOW, the "chess" aspect of this game in both PvE and PvP is amazing.
I read that in WvWvW you get pushed to lvl 80 and have the same stats as every1?
Um.. whats the point of PvPing then if no one has to earn their gear and being geared doesnt help you slay opponents easier???
Good points most of you, just adding more.
You get pushed up to 80 +base stats, a lvl 80 will still have the advanatge over a lvl 1 pushed to 80. in structured pvp it will be basicly similar to each other i beleive.
I am excited for GW2. I am eager to do the pvp, and prior to this, had shared some concerns with the OP. I thought "what the hell am I gonna do, WvWvW forever for no reward? No raids? No gear to grind? WTF?"
Then I remembered I can just do it for fun, the way I used to play all my games. Yeah, I wish there were a little more to work for in WvWvW, maybe persistent territory control that granted something cool to the winning server like access to Darkness Falls in DAOC.
But guess what, it doesn't. People need to quit trying to justify GW2 or paint it as something it is not. GW2 is what it is. Let is stand on its own two feet, and if it is good, then we all get to have fun. If it sucks, then lesson learned. People need to quit wishing GW2 was something it is not, because let's face it, the traditional MMORPG of the past ten years has PLENTY of models to choose from.
Plus, if you end up disliking GW2 because of the "end game," well, go play something else and come back to it when you are in the mood for it. It's not like you have to cancel your subscription. ;-)
How much fun is it really to wvwvw. Is it not just like alterac valley in Wow? Lets all go there then there. Mindless rushing for castles. How do you strategies ? I hope there is more arena and 10 man type warsong gulch where strategy and player skill is needed. Is there?
I am excited for GW2. I am eager to do the pvp, and prior to this, had shared some concerns with the OP. I thought "what the hell am I gonna do, WvWvW forever for no reward? No raids? No gear to grind? WTF?"
Then I remembered I can just do it for fun, the way I used to play all my games. Yeah, I wish there were a little more to work for in WvWvW, maybe persistent territory control that granted something cool to the winning server like access to Darkness Falls in DAOC.
But guess what, it doesn't. People need to quit trying to justify GW2 or paint it as something it is not. GW2 is what it is. Let is stand on its own two feet, and if it is good, then we all get to have fun. If it sucks, then lesson learned. People need to quit wishing GW2 was something it is not, because let's face it, the traditional MMORPG of the past ten years has PLENTY of models to choose from.
Plus, if you end up disliking GW2 because of the "end game," well, go play something else and come back to it when you are in the mood for it. It's not like you have to cancel your subscription. ;-)
I know, i wish there was more to work for too, like in DAoC we worked towards RR, i think something like that would be cool, no gear progression through it though, maybe just like more traits? more initiative or defense, or heck even a cool title, and when u get high enough it displays your name to the enemy like in DAoC kind of more of an infamy thing i guess, to see that the people you are playing against know their toons, like o snap he's a RR8, doubt i can 1v1 on this RR4 guy. The good times
The "Youtube Pro": Someone who watches video's on said subject, and obviously has a full understanding of what is being said about such subject.
How much fun is it really to wvwvw. Is it not just like alterac valley in Wow?
Lets all go there then there. Mindless rushing for castles. How do you strategies ? I hope there is more arena and 10 man type warsong gulch where strategy and player skill is needed. Is there?
Honestly i don't think woW is a fair comparison, It's 2 sided no? That changes literally everything. DAoC is 3 sided so ask anyone from there what 3 team tactics are like. it's intense i'll tell you, and with the Orb of power, that will make strategizing much more needed, everyone will want that. At times there will be mindless zergs no doubt, Billings seemed to run a lot of those haha, But with that 3rd team in there, it makes everyone watch their backs when attacking a keep, so you try to do it faster, and doing it faster means more people and better plans. There is always a need for small groups, go kill their chain of supply, their straglers ttrying to get to the keep to defend it, that kind of stuff, it will be more strategy based for the winning servers, other servers might be less organized, or have less of a sense of leadership, which will make it frustrating no doubt, but NEVER under estimate the small groups, they can turn the tide of any battle.
The "Youtube Pro": Someone who watches video's on said subject, and obviously has a full understanding of what is being said about such subject.
How much fun is it really to wvwvw. Is it not just like alterac valley in Wow?
Lets all go there then there. Mindless rushing for castles. How do you strategies ? I hope there is more arena and 10 man type warsong gulch where strategy and player skill is needed. Is there?
Just about ANY game on the PC market has more strategy than warsong gulch.
As for GW2, there are a dozon or more capture points, adding bonuses to your side. There are also choke points and supply routes to help defeat or defend.
Well, he is not entirely false either.... the more i think about it, there is one thing from the normal 1-80 gameplay missing at level 80 and thats the feeling of progression. I think that might be a gamebreaker for some people. I am still not sure if i myself can live without any true feeling of progression.
Progression.. I remember progression.
It was not getting slightly better gear as you grind the same instances over and over, it was getting new abilities, AAs and raising your basic stats.
No MMO have launched the last 10 years with progression, at least not after the few weeks it takes you to max out your character. You don't get better, you just run in a hamsterwheel for the next tier gear.
Gear is not progression.
QFT.
MMOs that use a subscription fee have conditioned players in much the same way that Vegas conditions gamblers. Take slots for example. People sit and do the same repetitive activity for hours, days or even weeks based on intermittent positive reinforcement. Every once in a while you win something, and even if it is less than what you put in, you may still fell like a "winner", leading you to believe that if you keep doing the same activity, maybe you will become "the big winner".
Tier raiding uses the same model. People go and do the same thing week after week, for 8+ months, hoping that a certain boss that will drop that certain item from its loot table so that you can get your BiS, hoping you have enoug DKP to win it. Sometimes you win, most often you don't. Raid finder uses the same idea, except you truly just /roll to win. Now for some people, having better gear means being able to do harder content, but for most, the gear itself is the reward. And that's all fine and good until either they drop new content, and you start the whole thing over, or they drop an expansion, where you end up paying a fee on top of your subscription to get back on the wheel.
And there is nothing wrong with this. But I'm not sure that I would call it progression.
"Loading screens" are not "instances". Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
From what I'm reading here people are saying there is no PvE endgame, is this what you are seriously saying?!! I do not PvP, I am purely a PvEr although I'm not very hardcore so I don't need super hard raids and I don't need an end game grind, just something which will keep me interested as a PvEr at end game. Does anyone know if guild wars 2 will do this at least, fom what alot of people have been sayying it looks as though end game is purely PvP with no PvE.
yes that all look to enticing in paper. in the practice translate totally different. a bit too premature to draw a final judgement. since noone here knows a damn thing about how the end game content gonna be like.
It's honestly not all that different from how it worked in the first game. For those that have never played the first game, it will be something that feels entirely new & different. Quite simple nearly no other MMOs do things this way. However, it worked great in the first game.
Basically, the 'tutorial' section that most MMOs use for players to learn how to play the game functions like the entire lvl grind for GWs.
Think of it this way, in most MMOs you spend the first 5-10 lvls learning the game. Every level after that is basically you waiting to gain full access to your character. Your character isn't 'complete' until endgame. In GW1 and 2, the 'tutorial' part of the game gets you a complete character. You have a full set of skills you can use, and a build that works. Every bit of content played after that is about customization, lore, achievement, and discovery. If you want different playstyles / skillsets / builds, the rest of the game is there to give you that. If you want to unveil more of the story, that's where the PvE fits in. If you want to explore & achieve, again PvE is there for you.
The 'endgame' in a game like this is basically fully completing your character (unlocking everything), running dungeons & such in harder modes for better weapon / armor skins, crafting materials, lore, etc. PvP / WvW, etc. etc. And his is all assuming you never roll an alt, in which you have an entirely new character to flesh out and learn. This is why this design has so much playability. You don't spend your entire time lvling to unlock the one build you are going to use most of the time. You unlock many different styles of play as you go.
That said, GW2 takes a bit of a step back from the GW1 style of 'endgame' (if you really want to call it that). This is because there are lvls in GW2, and they give you more access to traits. Other than that, it functions very much the same.
if end game in GW2 is anything like the first, i think i would get bored quite fast with it. i recall end content in GW1 was grinding instances for drops, over and over. and some pvp.
in other words. same old thing, every other game end content is.
Maybe, who knows? But at least you won't be paying a sub fee for the privelege of finding out. How many hours of enjoyment do you expect to get for $60? I suspect there is hundreds of hours of enjoyable content in this game that you can do at your own pace, not including the PvP. Is that worth the price of the ticket to enter?
"Loading screens" are not "instances". Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
I was talking about the original Alterac Valley in WoW, before they watered it down and streamlined it as nothing more, really, than a means of GETTING GEAR.
Back when it first came out, single battles would literally last for days. You could log out, get 8 hrs sleep, work 8 hrs, come home, log back in .... to the same battle!!! There were NPCs all over the place. Quests you could do to generate NPC hunting parties, or conjure up massive boss mobs that would start marching into enemy territory. There were flying creatures (a giant dragon or an eagle or something) that would bombard one side or the other. There were mini-bosses and resurrection points to get and hold.
A handful of players that were well-organized could turn the whole battle around.
Gear-grinding is a feature that affects how everything in the game is organized. I'm not saying it is a bad feature, but it doesn't have to be in every. single. mmog.
But how do you Get so many players to do what they are supposed to do? There is a reason why Alterac valley changed from 8 hour battles to 10 min zerg fest. User base wanted it like that
A lot of high-itemization-demands players could never make the adjustment, it is true.
But remember, before Diablo, that itemization model didn't truly exist. There are other viable ideas.
Is that a joke?
Loot has been an essential factor of pretty much all RPGs since the 70s when PnP started. There's a reason for this and it's because people like it. Diablo was based on the rogue-likes, and they used vertical gear progression as well.
Being in denial about it isn't going to change that you like to upgrade your character, because you're human.
Are you serious? Gear was nothing but an afterthought in every RPG. The whole notion of an RPG is character progression through a storyline. As Ice said, not until Diablo did an RPG come along and place all importance on gear.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
But how do you Get so many players to do what they are supposed to do? There is a reason why Alterac valley changed from 8 hour battles to 10 min zerg fest. User base wanted it like that
Well, the most vocal part of the user base wanted it like that, but the point is, WoW was - and is - a gear-grind, raid-as-end-game game. Those are the people WoW serves, and so were probably right to change the nature of AV and other battle-grounds to a form of gear-grinding.
But that's not what GW2 is, nor is ANET building that kind of game. Partially, it appeals directly to everyone who loved that original AV. The people that cold organize their side the best, and could communicate the best, almost always won those original battles.I remember playing alliance side for weeks and weeks and always getting steamrolled by the Horde, until I happened to join an AV instance that had a leading Alliance guild in it Alliance kicked butt that day because we had a great commander that kept barking out commands and instructions and kept most of the players active in specific roles.
All it takes is a few people. I remember myself, and a warrior and a shaman taking a long, back route to a horde mini-boss while the Alliance was getting nailed and getting the kill, then pulling out, hiding until the heat was off, and moving on to another mini-boss, and got it too. We didn't win the match, but it was a LOT of fun being a thorn in the Horde's side that day. We got some kind of points for the mini-boss kills along the way.
The chaos can be fun, too. In AV, even if we were getting steamrolled, being able to get individual kills and delay the other side was good fun. There were times when all seemed lost, and somehow we pulled it together and got them beat - usually because ppl on our side quit, logged out, and then better players replaced them.
But how do you Get so many players to do what they are supposed to do? There is a reason why Alterac valley changed from 8 hour battles to 10 min zerg fest. User base wanted it like that
Well, the most vocal part of the user base wanted it like that, but the point is, WoW was - and is - a gear-grind, raid-as-end-game game. Those are the people WoW serves, and so were probably right to change the nature of AV and other battle-grounds to a form of gear-grinding.
But that's not what GW2 is, nor is ANET building that kind of game. Partially, it appeals directly to everyone who loved that original AV. The people that cold organize their side the best, and could communicate the best, almost always won those original battles.I remember playing alliance side for weeks and weeks and always getting steamrolled by the Horde, until I happened to join an AV instance that had a leading Alliance guild in it Alliance kicked butt that day because we had a great commander that kept barking out commands and instructions and kept most of the players active in specific roles.
All it takes is a few people. I remember myself, and a warrior and a shaman taking a long, back route to a horde mini-boss while the Alliance was getting nailed and getting the kill, then pulling out, hiding until the heat was off, and moving on to another mini-boss, and got it too. We didn't win the match, but it was a LOT of fun being a thorn in the Horde's side that day. We got some kind of points for the mini-boss kills along the way.
The chaos can be fun, too. In AV, even if we were getting steamrolled, being able to get individual kills and delay the other side was good fun. There were times when all seemed lost, and somehow we pulled it together and got them beat - usually because ppl on our side quit, logged out, and then better players replaced them.
I agree with everything stated here. WvW is not for gear, it's for server/guild pride and moving up the rankings.
As for your last point on getting steamrolled but still hampering the enemy... I think with things like resources it will be possible to use guerilla tactics to have an impact on your opponent. So even if you get steamrolled at a keep, it should be possible to cut off the supply lines and cripple the enemy that way (assuming ANet did a good job with the implementation). I could be wrong, but their WvW maps and descriptions so far leads me to believe that that is the case!
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
I certainly promise to leave you guys alone, if the game turns out to replace vertical gear progression with vertical prestige progression.
As much as I loathe the cheap approach to gear progression in modern MMOs, I can only see myself loathing prestige progression more.
If people really think content will be more fun because you remove/reduce the reward, I think they have a surprise coming.
The problem here is that you are not grasping what ANet is attempting to do...
They feel that the gameplay itself should be so much fun that it is a reward all to itself. We have been told over and over that the only way to have "fun" is to have some artificial reward attached to a task that is, for all intents and purposes, work.
Why not make each activity no longer a chore that you're rewarded for at the end; instead, making it so much fun that just doing it is it's own reward. This is where I believe GW2 PvE is turning the entire genre on it's ear.
For the older gamers, think back to the MuDs, just exploring possibilities and creating a personal story was what made those so much fun.
I certainly promise to leave you guys alone, if the game turns out to replace vertical gear progression with vertical prestige progression.
As much as I loathe the cheap approach to gear progression in modern MMOs, I can only see myself loathing prestige progression more.
If people really think content will be more fun because you remove/reduce the reward, I think they have a surprise coming.
The problem here is that you are not grasping what ANet is attempting to do...
They feel that the gameplay itself should be so much fun that it is a reward all to itself. We have been told over and over that the only way to have "fun" is to have some artificial reward attached to a task that is, for all intents and purposes, work.
Why not make each activity no longer a chore that you're rewarded for at the end; instead, making it so much fun that just doing it is it's own reward. This is where I believe GW2 PvE is turning the entire genre on it's ear.
For the older gamers, think back to the MuDs, just exploring possibilities and creating a personal story was what made those so much fun.
I actually agree with you, and applaud Anet for making this attempt. But, let me play devil's advocate for a moment.
Why should it be one or the other? It begins to sound like an excuse when you make the choice, as a developer, to say "people will play this game for fun alone, we will reduce the awards and make their importance trivial."
Okay, cool concept, but why not make gameplay soooo much fun and *also* provide the rewards? It would certainly appeal to a broader base of people, and folks can say what they want about Anet, but Anet *does* want to make a wicked profit. So, why not make the activity just as much fun as Anet is making it, and *also* award the player at the end?
I have no problem with your point of view personally, I am just throwing this point out as a view a lot of people do seem to have.
Also, personally, I think comparing it to a MuD is perhaps a bit misguided. I think I get your point, but GW2 is a themepark game, and the point here is not to make your own story. They give you plenty of story and material to play through. The game will be fun, but the fun in MuDs was playing out a story you create, a far cry from a themepark game offers.
In the end, that might be the issue for some people. GW2 seems, on its surface to offer a themepark game, but then you scratch the surface and realize it is something more, something different. That difference will make some people love it and some hate it. Not much to be done about that though.
@ meleagar - in wow yes the pve pop prob was 99.5 % pvp .5% I am not sure how many can Get into wvwvw but if it is a lot then i am gonna Think that people will Get frustrated quickly if there is no easy way to organize the group. Atleast with guild vs guild vs guild then the guilds have ventrilo and a means to organize and strategies. That in My mind is better than the mindless zerg we will Get in wvwvw
I certainly promise to leave you guys alone, if the game turns out to replace vertical gear progression with vertical prestige progression.
As much as I loathe the cheap approach to gear progression in modern MMOs, I can only see myself loathing prestige progression more.
If people really think content will be more fun because you remove/reduce the reward, I think they have a surprise coming.
The problem here is that you are not grasping what ANet is attempting to do...
They feel that the gameplay itself should be so much fun that it is a reward all to itself. We have been told over and over that the only way to have "fun" is to have some artificial reward attached to a task that is, for all intents and purposes, work.
Why not make each activity no longer a chore that you're rewarded for at the end; instead, making it so much fun that just doing it is it's own reward. This is where I believe GW2 PvE is turning the entire genre on it's ear.
For the older gamers, think back to the MuDs, just exploring possibilities and creating a personal story was what made those so much fun.
I actually agree with you, and applaud Anet for making this attempt. But, let me play devil's advocate for a moment.
Why should it be one or the other? It begins to sound like an excuse when you make the choice, as a developer, to say "people will play this game for fun alone, we will reduce the awards and make their importance trivial."
Okay, cool concept, but why not make gameplay soooo much fun and *also* provide the rewards? It would certainly appeal to a broader base of people, and folks can say what they want about Anet, but Anet *does* want to make a wicked profit. So, why not make the activity just as much fun as Anet is making it, and *also* award the player at the end?
I have no problem with your point of view personally, I am just throwing this point out as a view a lot of people do seem to have.
Also, personally, I think comparing it to a MuD is perhaps a bit misguided. I think I get your point, but GW2 is a themepark game, and the point here is not to make your own story. They give you plenty of story and material to play through. The game will be fun, but the fun in MuDs was playing out a story you create, a far cry from a themepark game offers.
In the end, that might be the issue for some people. GW2 seems, on its surface to offer a themepark game, but then you scratch the surface and realize it is something more, something different. That difference will make some people love it and some hate it. Not much to be done about that though.
there is reward its jsut not in the same form. you dont get more pwoerful as that breaks the for fun thing. only the peopel who play a long time wil lthen have fun, and the people who have elss time will always lose thats not fun. this way everyone has a chance and time is not a factor on inning its all about how good you are. more tim will factor into more time to learn the skills
So far we've seen armor and weapon sets that can be upgraded with token like dungeon drops up to 5 times or so. That seems pretty progressiony grindish to me. Also the dungeons have multiple difficulty settings.
Then there's also the random stat itemization I think: getting the perfect gear for your playstyle with the perfect mods should take you a while (or a lot of gold).
Also the dynamic event rewards you get aren't always the same: might take you some time to get the drops you really want.
Actually, I semi-agree with you on this part...
... though it's not so much that you'll be getting MORE powerful, as more focused in the way you want, from my understanding of what they've shown.
So it'll be a lot of working towards the perfect balance of item stats, rather than a set that has +10 all around.
... but yeah, that happened in GW1, and from the looks of how itemization works in videos, it'll be much the same here. Sure, it may be a max level set you have, but maybe you want one with more of a certain stat and a tighter focus, rather than a generalized set.
Aye. You know how many people are ... even a 0,5% stat increase is something they'll happily work their ass off for. (At least I do).
I think the importance of items in GW2 will "feel" similar to most other games: you still want to get those tasty upgrades, despite the actual difference between base lvl 80 gear and ultimate lvl 80 gear being a lot less compared to other games. In peoples' perception not much will change I think.
At somepoint it will be for some better stats/gear but game is not as much better gear focussed then other games, its alot less importend then most games. Grind is very limited compare to many other games out there.
Comments
Every MMO player ever have been already doing the same thing over and over.
Professions in every MMO have been the same thing over and over, tank tanks, healer heals, dps dps same thing over and over, you are sometimes just standing there still doing the same thing over and over.
Gear progression is also doing the same thing over and over, PVP to get that special PVP currency , doing the same arena over and over getting your PVP currency so that you can buy that one piece of gear.
Raiding is also doing the same over and over, every week, the same dungeon, the same boss, the same method of taking it down.
In every single MMO available, the concept is to do the same thing over and over and over, until you are tired then you continue to do the same thing over and over again.
GW2 is popular because they are trying to say, Dungeons will have 3 explorable modes that offers different routes within the same dungeon. So atleast you can visit the Same dungeon but do it 3 different ways.
GW2 also said that instead of doing this quest over and over with your many alts, the next time you reach this place there will be a different chain available, and you will be in the same place doing different things.
GW2 also shown that fighting mobs, you can be using pistols and killed this mob from afar, or you can use this Axe and fight it close up, or use conditions and condition it to death. But you have to dodge and move away from Enemy attacks. So you might be able to kill it in 5 minutes one time, and 10 minutes the next.
This is why its popular, this is why people follows GW2, because it offers them something that is no longer the same thing over and over. Or atleast not as repetitive.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
WvW by its very nature and scale will give a different experience to every evenings play in comparison to grinding pvp tupperware boxes over and over for tokens in other games
Outdoor Pve with the chaining events offers more variety than kill 10 griblies
Dungeons as mentioned have multiple paths
"You're right, GW2 doesn't look like it's for me - and that's no big deal. I'm just trying to understand why so many people think it's going to be so fantastic. So far, I can only assume that you really like doing the same things over and over, and you don't actually care about progression. That's fair enough, but very strange to me."
Sometimes a thing is fun no matter how many times you do it (within reason). There are many games I never tire of - poker, croquet, canasta, pool, Sins of a Solar Empire, chess and Zuma to name a few. What is interesting about those games are the different kinds and combinations of strategy one utilizes in "winning", not that you get anything special at the end that you carry with you to the next game, other than an increased understanding of strategy tactics. You walk away having had a good time and, if playing with others, a sense of comraderie and satisfaction.
In the games that have other players that I'm competing with or against, the interesting and enjoyable aspect of the game is increasing both personal and interpersonal game skill and tactics, and reacting to variations thrown at you by other players and chance events.
In WoW's Alterac Valley, I wasn't playing for any rewards (although they offered them) I just enjoyed the exploration of tactics, skill and finding interesting games-within-the game to explore (and imagine my limitations as a priest). With the combat combo system of GW2, and the ability to switch weapons and other battle aspects, there is a depth and meaning to tactics and skill unavailable to gear-progression holy trinity models. IOW, the "chess" aspect of this game in both PvE and PvP is amazing.
You get pushed up to 80 +base stats, a lvl 80 will still have the advanatge over a lvl 1 pushed to 80. in structured pvp it will be basicly similar to each other i beleive.
I am excited for GW2. I am eager to do the pvp, and prior to this, had shared some concerns with the OP. I thought "what the hell am I gonna do, WvWvW forever for no reward? No raids? No gear to grind? WTF?"
Then I remembered I can just do it for fun, the way I used to play all my games. Yeah, I wish there were a little more to work for in WvWvW, maybe persistent territory control that granted something cool to the winning server like access to Darkness Falls in DAOC.
But guess what, it doesn't. People need to quit trying to justify GW2 or paint it as something it is not. GW2 is what it is. Let is stand on its own two feet, and if it is good, then we all get to have fun. If it sucks, then lesson learned. People need to quit wishing GW2 was something it is not, because let's face it, the traditional MMORPG of the past ten years has PLENTY of models to choose from.
Plus, if you end up disliking GW2 because of the "end game," well, go play something else and come back to it when you are in the mood for it. It's not like you have to cancel your subscription. ;-)
Lets all go there then there. Mindless rushing for castles. How do you strategies ? I hope there is more arena and 10 man type warsong gulch where strategy and player skill is needed. Is there?
I know, i wish there was more to work for too, like in DAoC we worked towards RR, i think something like that would be cool, no gear progression through it though, maybe just like more traits? more initiative or defense, or heck even a cool title, and when u get high enough it displays your name to the enemy like in DAoC
kind of more of an infamy thing i guess, to see that the people you are playing against know their toons, like o snap he's a RR8, doubt i can 1v1 on this RR4 guy. The good times 
The "Youtube Pro": Someone who watches video's on said subject, and obviously has a full understanding of what is being said about such subject.
Honestly i don't think woW is a fair comparison, It's 2 sided no? That changes literally everything. DAoC is 3 sided so ask anyone from there what 3 team tactics are like. it's intense i'll tell you, and with the Orb of power, that will make strategizing much more needed, everyone will want that. At times there will be mindless zergs no doubt, Billings seemed to run a lot of those haha, But with that 3rd team in there, it makes everyone watch their backs when attacking a keep, so you try to do it faster, and doing it faster means more people and better plans. There is always a need for small groups, go kill their chain of supply, their straglers ttrying to get to the keep to defend it, that kind of stuff, it will be more strategy based for the winning servers, other servers might be less organized, or have less of a sense of leadership, which will make it frustrating no doubt, but NEVER under estimate the small groups, they can turn the tide of any battle.
The "Youtube Pro": Someone who watches video's on said subject, and obviously has a full understanding of what is being said about such subject.
Just about ANY game on the PC market has more strategy than warsong gulch.
As for GW2, there are a dozon or more capture points, adding bonuses to your side. There are also choke points and supply routes to help defeat or defend.
Nothing in WoW is even remotely close to that.
QFT.
MMOs that use a subscription fee have conditioned players in much the same way that Vegas conditions gamblers. Take slots for example. People sit and do the same repetitive activity for hours, days or even weeks based on intermittent positive reinforcement. Every once in a while you win something, and even if it is less than what you put in, you may still fell like a "winner", leading you to believe that if you keep doing the same activity, maybe you will become "the big winner".
Tier raiding uses the same model. People go and do the same thing week after week, for 8+ months, hoping that a certain boss that will drop that certain item from its loot table so that you can get your BiS, hoping you have enoug DKP to win it. Sometimes you win, most often you don't. Raid finder uses the same idea, except you truly just /roll to win. Now for some people, having better gear means being able to do harder content, but for most, the gear itself is the reward. And that's all fine and good until either they drop new content, and you start the whole thing over, or they drop an expansion, where you end up paying a fee on top of your subscription to get back on the wheel.
And there is nothing wrong with this. But I'm not sure that I would call it progression.
"Loading screens" are not "instances".
Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
Maybe, who knows? But at least you won't be paying a sub fee for the privelege of finding out. How many hours of enjoyment do you expect to get for $60? I suspect there is hundreds of hours of enjoyable content in this game that you can do at your own pace, not including the PvP. Is that worth the price of the ticket to enter?
"Loading screens" are not "instances".
Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
I was talking about the original Alterac Valley in WoW, before they watered it down and streamlined it as nothing more, really, than a means of GETTING GEAR.
Back when it first came out, single battles would literally last for days. You could log out, get 8 hrs sleep, work 8 hrs, come home, log back in .... to the same battle!!! There were NPCs all over the place. Quests you could do to generate NPC hunting parties, or conjure up massive boss mobs that would start marching into enemy territory. There were flying creatures (a giant dragon or an eagle or something) that would bombard one side or the other. There were mini-bosses and resurrection points to get and hold.
A handful of players that were well-organized could turn the whole battle around.
Gear-grinding is a feature that affects how everything in the game is organized. I'm not saying it is a bad feature, but it doesn't have to be in every. single. mmog.
Are you serious? Gear was nothing but an afterthought in every RPG. The whole notion of an RPG is character progression through a storyline. As Ice said, not until Diablo did an RPG come along and place all importance on gear.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
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Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Well, the most vocal part of the user base wanted it like that, but the point is, WoW was - and is - a gear-grind, raid-as-end-game game. Those are the people WoW serves, and so were probably right to change the nature of AV and other battle-grounds to a form of gear-grinding.
But that's not what GW2 is, nor is ANET building that kind of game. Partially, it appeals directly to everyone who loved that original AV. The people that cold organize their side the best, and could communicate the best, almost always won those original battles.I remember playing alliance side for weeks and weeks and always getting steamrolled by the Horde, until I happened to join an AV instance that had a leading Alliance guild in it Alliance kicked butt that day because we had a great commander that kept barking out commands and instructions and kept most of the players active in specific roles.
All it takes is a few people. I remember myself, and a warrior and a shaman taking a long, back route to a horde mini-boss while the Alliance was getting nailed and getting the kill, then pulling out, hiding until the heat was off, and moving on to another mini-boss, and got it too. We didn't win the match, but it was a LOT of fun being a thorn in the Horde's side that day. We got some kind of points for the mini-boss kills along the way.
The chaos can be fun, too. In AV, even if we were getting steamrolled, being able to get individual kills and delay the other side was good fun. There were times when all seemed lost, and somehow we pulled it together and got them beat - usually because ppl on our side quit, logged out, and then better players replaced them.
I agree with everything stated here. WvW is not for gear, it's for server/guild pride and moving up the rankings.
As for your last point on getting steamrolled but still hampering the enemy... I think with things like resources it will be possible to use guerilla tactics to have an impact on your opponent. So even if you get steamrolled at a keep, it should be possible to cut off the supply lines and cripple the enemy that way (assuming ANet did a good job with the implementation). I could be wrong, but their WvW maps and descriptions so far leads me to believe that that is the case!
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
I actually agree with you, and applaud Anet for making this attempt. But, let me play devil's advocate for a moment.
Why should it be one or the other? It begins to sound like an excuse when you make the choice, as a developer, to say "people will play this game for fun alone, we will reduce the awards and make their importance trivial."
Okay, cool concept, but why not make gameplay soooo much fun and *also* provide the rewards? It would certainly appeal to a broader base of people, and folks can say what they want about Anet, but Anet *does* want to make a wicked profit. So, why not make the activity just as much fun as Anet is making it, and *also* award the player at the end?
I have no problem with your point of view personally, I am just throwing this point out as a view a lot of people do seem to have.
Also, personally, I think comparing it to a MuD is perhaps a bit misguided. I think I get your point, but GW2 is a themepark game, and the point here is not to make your own story. They give you plenty of story and material to play through. The game will be fun, but the fun in MuDs was playing out a story you create, a far cry from a themepark game offers.
In the end, that might be the issue for some people. GW2 seems, on its surface to offer a themepark game, but then you scratch the surface and realize it is something more, something different. That difference will make some people love it and some hate it. Not much to be done about that though.
I am not sure how many can Get into wvwvw but if it is a lot then i am gonna Think that people will Get frustrated quickly if there is no easy way to organize the group. Atleast with guild vs guild vs guild then the guilds have ventrilo and a means to organize and strategies. That in My mind is better than the mindless zerg we will Get in wvwvw
there is reward its jsut not in the same form. you dont get more pwoerful as that breaks the for fun thing. only the peopel who play a long time wil lthen have fun, and the people who have elss time will always lose thats not fun. this way everyone has a chance and time is not a factor on inning its all about how good you are. more tim will factor into more time to learn the skills
At somepoint it will be for some better stats/gear but game is not as much better gear focussed then other games, its alot less importend then most games. Grind is very limited compare to many other games out there.