The difference between GW2 and the average MMO, is that GW2 will reward you with less significant rewards (in terms of power) for doing content.
A lot of people expect this approach to, somehow (magically I suppose), make content more interesting and last longer.
Personally, I don't see why - but to each his own.
Then again, I always play games with some kind of goal in mind. The VAST majority of modern MMOs have no worthwhile goal in mind, so I don't play them.
EVE Online is probably closest to my idea of a great MMO - because I love the amount of player freedom and control. I'm a huge believer of letting the players set their own goals - by giving them tools to shape the world and achieve what they think is worthwhile. Sadly, the core gameplay is incredibly boring - so I can't enjoy EVE.
GW2 is the ultimate casual MMO, really, because there's a limited power differential and a pretty straightforward combat system. That means everyone can participate on a reasonably even level. That's pretty clever - because most people don't have the interest or the inclination to "invest themselves" in a computer game - which is why they end up not being all that great at them. In GW2, even the most skilled player won't be able to do much against greater numbers. So, it's very much a team-oriented game and it mostly resembles a sports game in that way. Even their so-called "World PvP" is just a large instance with 100% structured and "fair" PvP - and it resets every two weeks. It has absolutely nothing to do with actual warfare - which is never a fair or structured event. It's just like a sports tournament.
If doing the same content over and over and over without significant reward is your idea of fun - and if you enjoy the fact that being on a team is much more important than your individual performance - then GW2 is a great choice.
Sense we are on the subject of end game and gear, will PVP gear offer different stats so I can trait up my power/crit and then gear up my toughness? I know pve gear will be like that but curious about structured pvp gear. My understanding of the gear is
one armor set will have (for example) 200 points of stats
second armor will have still 200 points of stats but different then armor set one.
Originally posted by DKLond Even their so-called "World PvP" is just a large instance with 100% structured and "fair" PvP - and it resets every two weeks. It has absolutely nothing to do with actual warfare - which is never a fair or structured event. It's just like a sports tournament.
Not correct, WvW is anything but structered and fair, if server A has 200 participants all at max level before entering, server B has 40 participants of differing levels prior to entering and server C has 150 mixed levels before entering it's clear server A has the upper hand if they get their strategy right. WvW is anything but balanced and structured. It's all dependent on server participation, it is far from being a sport tournament, you want the tournament 5v5 PvP for that.
Sense we are on the subject of end game and gear, will PVP gear offer different stats so I can trait up my power/crit and then gear up my toughness? I know pve gear will be like that but curious about structured pvp gear. My understanding of the gear is
one armor set will have (for example) 200 points of stats
second armor will have still 200 points of stats but different then armor set one.
Will structured pvp gear be that some way?
It's basically the same all around. You can look at GW1's system to get a better understand of how it works, but to give a quick rundown:
You can make a weapon in PvP have the same stats as an epic drop in a dungeon. However, depending on the type of player you are one might be easier for you to get. Furthermore there is a cosmetic difference. One item might have everything you want in the drop, whereas the other you may need to transmute some stats off another item to get what you want. The difference is really, do you want to go for an item that has all the stats you want built in, or do you want to customize your own.
Is there a weapon that just looks really cool that you want to modify to have certain stats.
The truth is, we haven't seen much about the PvP armor yet, just the PvE. However, if it's done at all like it was in the first game (which it sounds like it is), then PvP gear will be very generic, but easier to customize (unlock the stats you want via PvPing and then applying those modifications to get the exact stats build you want).
In PvE however, it will probably require more work to get those perfect stats you want (unless you are really bad at PvP), but it will look far better.
We've all seen the generic PvP armor look from the vids (very bland blue / red robe or armor)
I'm an idiot in the sense that I have my eyes open, and that I don't agree with you about GW2 (I assume you think it's going to rock your world).
Or that nearly everything you just posted is blatantly false.
But hey, what do I know, I'm just a fanboy right? It's not like there's pleanty of data for those that bother to actually look at it. Or that some of us may have actually played the game.
Seems like you (@op) need to play the game. Theorycrafting is fine and all, but knowing a game is like knowing kissing. You can talk all day about it, but only see what it is by doing it yourself.
Even their so-called "World PvP" is just a large instance with 100% structured and "fair" PvP - and it resets every two weeks. It has absolutely nothing to do with actual warfare - which is never a fair or structured event. It's just like a sports tournament.
Not correct, WvW is anything but structered and fair, if server A has 200 participants all at max level before entering, server B has 40 participants of differing levels prior to entering and server C has 150 mixed levels before entering it's clear server A has the upper hand if they get their strategy right. WvW is anything but balanced and structured. It's all dependent on server participation, it is far from being a sport tournament, you want the tournament 5v5 PvP for that.
It's quite true that the game can't simulate real human players and replace empty spaces with them. But it does the best it can to boost people to appropriate levels and ensure as even a playfield as possible. This is a VERY blatantly clear and stated goal of the developers.
I'm an idiot in the sense that I have my eyes open, and that I don't agree with you about GW2 (I assume you think it's going to rock your world).
Or that nearly everything you just posted is blatantly false.
But hey, what do I know, I'm just a fanboy right? It's not like there's pleanty of data for those that bother to actually look at it. Or that some of us may have actually played the game.
Beyond insults, do you have anything to support your claims? Because if you don't - you're not going to make much of an impression.
Guild Wars 1 was known as "World of Warcraft for poor people"
Guild Wars 2 will be know " We faild with the whole concept of implementing new things in the gender"
Asian playstyle is different then he EU/US and again we have massive marketing stun as it was with the Aion in 2009.
Most of the intensity that comes from puting the GW2 among the stars before even it is relaeased came from a huge amount of money that is pot in to comercials.
I remembered that NC Soft even payed Kungend and the whole Nihilum team to come to their convecion to prise the Aion and talk how they will defo play the game.
When I made 1st post here on MMORPG i got baned for a day cause I said that most posts are coming from ppl who are payed to rise the intensity of the GW2.
Personaly, I see GW2 as a Warhammer Online with much better graphics.
As I said at the start, GW2 is bringing Asian style of playing with some sugar coating that i will never support cause I dont like empty content with brainles grinding and PvPing without knowing anything about the word or story where I am.
TERA is best to prove my point.
TERA in Asia is almost totaly different game than TERA US/EU, cause they know that ppl in EU/US will never step in the that playstyle. Over 2 years they worked hard in implementing lore and quests and tweeking the game to be comfy for us.
PRECISELY! Its a game! Play it for fun!!?? NOT uber gear!!??
idd, there are few mmos out there including the most subbed one where you can run endlessly for UBER gear. so not every game needs to use same format of end game and im happy when finally someone is doing it differently.
Originally posted by DKLond Even their so-called "World PvP" is just a large instance with 100% structured and "fair" PvP - and it resets every two weeks. It has absolutely nothing to do with actual warfare - which is never a fair or structured event. It's just like a sports tournament.
Not correct, WvW is anything but structered and fair, if server A has 200 participants all at max level before entering, server B has 40 participants of differing levels prior to entering and server C has 150 mixed levels before entering it's clear server A has the upper hand if they get their strategy right. WvW is anything but balanced and structured. It's all dependent on server participation, it is far from being a sport tournament, you want the tournament 5v5 PvP for that.
It's quite true that the game can't simulate real human players and replace empty spaces with them. But it does the best it can to boost people to appropriate levels and ensure as even a playfield as possible. This is a VERY blatantly clear and stated goal of the developers. Yes, I consider it very much like a sports match.
All the boosting up does is ensure you don't get one shot by a player and allow lvl 1 players to jump in at a disadvantage but one that doesn't mean they can't participate, it will be two shot probably against the fully geared/skill/trait unlocked lvl 80 player. WvW is not what you are making it out to be.
Guild Wars 1 was known as "World of Warcraft for poor people"
Guild Wars 2 will be know " We faild with the whole concept of implementing new things in the gender"
Asian playstyle is different then he EU/US and again we have massive marketing stun as it was with the Aion in 2009.
Most of the intensity that comes from puting the GW2 among the stars before even it is relaeased came from a huge amount of money that is pot in to comercials.
I remembered that NC Soft even payed Kungend and the whole Nihilum team to come to their convecion to prise the Aion and talk how they will defo play the game.
When I made 1st post here on MMORPG i got baned for a day cause I said that most posts are coming from ppl who are payed to rise the intensity of the GW2.
Personaly, I see GW2 as a Warhammer Online with much better graphics.
As I said at the start, GW2 is bringing Asian style of playing with some sugar coating that i will never support cause I dont like empty content with brainles grinding and PvPing without knowing anything about the word or story where I am.
TERA is best to prove my point.
TERA in Asia is almost totaly different game than TERA US/EU, cause they know that ppl in EU/US will never step in the that playstyle. Over 2 years they worked hard in implementing lore and quests and tweeking the game to be comfy for us.
Well, the point is even though Guild Wars 1 got released around the same time as WoW, it still managed to survive even with less content. I have a feeling that Guild Wars 2's B2P business model is going to keep Guild Wars 2 successful.
As I said at the start, GW2 is bringing Asian style of playing with some sugar coating that i will never support cause I dont like empty content with brainles grinding and PvPing without knowing anything about the word or story where I am.
What in the fuck? That's all I have to say to this.
I'm an idiot in the sense that I have my eyes open, and that I don't agree with you about GW2 (I assume you think it's going to rock your world).
Or that nearly everything you just posted is blatantly false.
But hey, what do I know, I'm just a fanboy right? It's not like there's pleanty of data for those that bother to actually look at it. Or that some of us may have actually played the game.
Beyond insults, do you have anything to support your claims? Because if you don't - you're not going to make much of an impression.
Honestly, I should be asking you that.
I'm not trying to impress, but I sure as hell don't like it when people say baseless stuff and try and pass it off as fact. There IS a ton of info on the game, any idiot who knows how to use Google can see that. I guess I just don't understand why you choose to ignore that.
Do I think the game is the coming Messiah? Of course not. But I know what the game is, and how it plays. There's also pleanty of reports on the game (both good and bad) for those that actually bother to read them. Blanket comments like your original post show neither a hidden sense of clarity nor an intelligent skepticism of the game. It's flinging crap at a wall to see what sticks.
Again, the game most definitely has issues. However, some are a bit more valid than others. Calling this game a rehash of every other themepark MMO is baseless on so many different levels it's facepalm worthy.
As I said at the start, GW2 is bringing Asian style of playing with some sugar coating that i will never support cause I dont like empty content with brainles grinding and PvPing without knowing anything about the word or story where I am.
What in the fuck? That's all I have to say to this.
Uninformed person is uninformed, don't bother trying to comprehend his post.
Even their so-called "World PvP" is just a large instance with 100% structured and "fair" PvP - and it resets every two weeks. It has absolutely nothing to do with actual warfare - which is never a fair or structured event. It's just like a sports tournament.
Not correct, WvW is anything but structered and fair, if server A has 200 participants all at max level before entering, server B has 40 participants of differing levels prior to entering and server C has 150 mixed levels before entering it's clear server A has the upper hand if they get their strategy right. WvW is anything but balanced and structured. It's all dependent on server participation, it is far from being a sport tournament, you want the tournament 5v5 PvP for that.
It's quite true that the game can't simulate real human players and replace empty spaces with them. But it does the best it can to boost people to appropriate levels and ensure as even a playfield as possible. This is a VERY blatantly clear and stated goal of the developers.
Yes, I consider it very much like a sports match.
All the boosting up does is ensure you don't get one shot by a player and allow lvl 1 players to jump in at a disadvantage but one that doesn't mean they can't participate, it will be two shot probably, you're still at a glaring disadvantage to the fully geared/skill/trait unlocked lvl 80 player. WvW is not what you are making it out to be.
I disagree, it's exactly what I'm making it out to be.
I'm not saying a boosted level 1 player will have the exact same power as a fully geared level 80 player. I'm saying the game does pretty much everything it can to ensure that low level players can compete, should they wish to.
If they gave you gear and trait points - they'd completely nullify the PvE leveling. For some reason, they WANT the game to have a semi-traditional level 1-80 PvE game.
Gear is easy to attain and the high level stuff is going to be VERY similar. They simply don't WANT a power differential and they WANT it to be fair and structured.
Why be in denial about that? It's one of the most obvious goals of the design.
I'm an idiot in the sense that I have my eyes open, and that I don't agree with you about GW2 (I assume you think it's going to rock your world).
Or that nearly everything you just posted is blatantly false.
But hey, what do I know, I'm just a fanboy right? It's not like there's pleanty of data for those that bother to actually look at it. Or that some of us may have actually played the game.
Beyond insults, do you have anything to support your claims? Because if you don't - you're not going to make much of an impression.
Honestly, I should be asking you that.
I'm not trying to impress, but I sure as hell don't like it when people say baseless stuff and try and pass it off as fact. There IS a ton of info on the game, any idiot who knows how to use Google can see that. I guess I just don't understand why you choose to ignore that.
Do I think the game is the coming Messiah? Of course not. But I know what the game is, and how it plays. There's also pleanty of reports on the game (both good and bad) for those that actually bother to read them. Blanket comments like your original post show neither a hidden sense of clarity nor an intelligent skepticism of the game. It's flinging crap at a wall to see what sticks.
Again, the game most definitely has issues. However, some are a bit more valid than others. Calling this game a rehash of every other themepark MMO is baseless on so many different levels it's facepalm worthy.
I haven't called it a rehash at all. You're delusional.
I've read pretty much everything there is to read about it, at least I did until I "possibly played it" and determined that it wouldn't be for me.
All the boosting up does is ensure you don't get one shot by a player and allow lvl 1 players to jump in at a disadvantage but one that doesn't mean they can't participate, it will be two shot probably against the fully geared/skill/trait unlocked lvl 80 player. WvW is not what you are making it out to be.
When you have siege weapons that can hit for up to 10K, your unlocked gear/skills/traits aren't going to help you survive that.
Victory in WvW will be based on the numbers. You have more, you win. It won't come down to the 1v1 combat where balance really matters.
The competative 5v5 PvP will do though, so there is where you will find all gear/skills/traits unlocked to give you a fair chance. You won't get that in WvW and nor should you, but at the same time if you go into WvW at level 2 you will still be able to make a difference. Although I'd recommend unlocking your weapons kills at least first.
I've read pretty much everything there is to read about it, at least I did until I "possibly played it" and determined that it wouldn't be for me.
Have you actually played it? Or have you just already made up your mind that you are not going to like it, and feel the need to bash it as well?
I can't confirm or deny that I actually played it for several hours on more than one occasion.
For some reason, you're calling me a troll or an idiot - and you seem to assume that I don't know what I'm talking about, and you seem to think you're the only person here who might have played it.
Maybe you should consider that I actually know about the game and that I've actually got a point. Maybe it's ok to simply disagree with me - and maybe it pays to point out exactly where I'm wrong and where I'm "lying".
If you can't point that out with concrete and precise information, I fail to see the point of this exchange.
I stopped insulting for the sake of insulting many years ago.
When you have siege weapons that can hit for up to 10K, your unlocked gear/skills/traits aren't going to help you survive that.
Victory in WvW will be based on the numbers. You have more, you win. It won't come down to the 1v1 combat where balance really matters.
The competative 5v5 PvP will do though, so there is where you will find all gear/skills/traits unlocked to give you a fair chance. You won't get that in WvW and nor should you, but at the same time if you go into WvW at level 2 you will still be able to make a difference. Although I'd recommend unlocking your weapons kills at least first.
Depending on your build and class, you can have up to around ~30k hp or so. However, ya multiple of the right siege weapons on any player will be an instant kill. You're absolutely right bout the numbers, though. And ya, once you get all your weapon skills unlocked, you'll be able to hold your own fairly well against most people (though that won't happen until you're ~lvl 3-4 at the earliest)
Comments
What is the best way to find out more about the game, theorycraft etc?
GW2 has a lot of content.
The average MMO has a lot of content.
The difference between GW2 and the average MMO, is that GW2 will reward you with less significant rewards (in terms of power) for doing content.
A lot of people expect this approach to, somehow (magically I suppose), make content more interesting and last longer.
Personally, I don't see why - but to each his own.
Then again, I always play games with some kind of goal in mind. The VAST majority of modern MMOs have no worthwhile goal in mind, so I don't play them.
EVE Online is probably closest to my idea of a great MMO - because I love the amount of player freedom and control. I'm a huge believer of letting the players set their own goals - by giving them tools to shape the world and achieve what they think is worthwhile. Sadly, the core gameplay is incredibly boring - so I can't enjoy EVE.
GW2 is the ultimate casual MMO, really, because there's a limited power differential and a pretty straightforward combat system. That means everyone can participate on a reasonably even level. That's pretty clever - because most people don't have the interest or the inclination to "invest themselves" in a computer game - which is why they end up not being all that great at them. In GW2, even the most skilled player won't be able to do much against greater numbers. So, it's very much a team-oriented game and it mostly resembles a sports game in that way. Even their so-called "World PvP" is just a large instance with 100% structured and "fair" PvP - and it resets every two weeks. It has absolutely nothing to do with actual warfare - which is never a fair or structured event. It's just like a sports tournament.
If doing the same content over and over and over without significant reward is your idea of fun - and if you enjoy the fact that being on a team is much more important than your individual performance - then GW2 is a great choice.
Sense we are on the subject of end game and gear, will PVP gear offer different stats so I can trait up my power/crit and then gear up my toughness? I know pve gear will be like that but curious about structured pvp gear. My understanding of the gear is
one armor set will have (for example) 200 points of stats
second armor will have still 200 points of stats but different then armor set one.
Will structured pvp gear be that some way?
[mod edit] I have my eyes open, and that I don't agree with you about GW2 (I assume you think it's going to rock your world).
Not correct, WvW is anything but structered and fair, if server A has 200 participants all at max level before entering, server B has 40 participants of differing levels prior to entering and server C has 150 mixed levels before entering it's clear server A has the upper hand if they get their strategy right. WvW is anything but balanced and structured. It's all dependent on server participation, it is far from being a sport tournament, you want the tournament 5v5 PvP for that.
It's basically the same all around. You can look at GW1's system to get a better understand of how it works, but to give a quick rundown:
You can make a weapon in PvP have the same stats as an epic drop in a dungeon. However, depending on the type of player you are one might be easier for you to get. Furthermore there is a cosmetic difference. One item might have everything you want in the drop, whereas the other you may need to transmute some stats off another item to get what you want. The difference is really, do you want to go for an item that has all the stats you want built in, or do you want to customize your own.
Is there a weapon that just looks really cool that you want to modify to have certain stats.
The truth is, we haven't seen much about the PvP armor yet, just the PvE. However, if it's done at all like it was in the first game (which it sounds like it is), then PvP gear will be very generic, but easier to customize (unlock the stats you want via PvPing and then applying those modifications to get the exact stats build you want).
In PvE however, it will probably require more work to get those perfect stats you want (unless you are really bad at PvP), but it will look far better.
We've all seen the generic PvP armor look from the vids (very bland blue / red robe or armor)
Whereas PvE gear tends to look a bit more badass: Heavy Armor concept
Or that nearly everything you just posted is blatantly false.
But hey, what do I know, I'm just a fanboy right? It's not like there's pleanty of data for those that bother to actually look at it. Or that some of us may have actually played the game.
Seems like you (@op) need to play the game. Theorycrafting is fine and all, but knowing a game is like knowing kissing. You can talk all day about it, but only see what it is by doing it yourself.
It's quite true that the game can't simulate real human players and replace empty spaces with them. But it does the best it can to boost people to appropriate levels and ensure as even a playfield as possible. This is a VERY blatantly clear and stated goal of the developers.
Yes, I consider it very much like a sports match.
Beyond insults, do you have anything to support your claims? Because if you don't - you're not going to make much of an impression.
Guild Wars 1 was known as "World of Warcraft for poor people"
Guild Wars 2 will be know " We faild with the whole concept of implementing new things in the gender"
Asian playstyle is different then he EU/US and again we have massive marketing stun as it was with the Aion in 2009.
Most of the intensity that comes from puting the GW2 among the stars before even it is relaeased came from a huge amount of money that is pot in to comercials.
I remembered that NC Soft even payed Kungend and the whole Nihilum team to come to their convecion to prise the Aion and talk how they will defo play the game.
When I made 1st post here on MMORPG i got baned for a day cause I said that most posts are coming from ppl who are payed to rise the intensity of the GW2.
Personaly, I see GW2 as a Warhammer Online with much better graphics.
As I said at the start, GW2 is bringing Asian style of playing with some sugar coating that i will never support cause I dont like empty content with brainles grinding and PvPing without knowing anything about the word or story where I am.
TERA is best to prove my point.
TERA in Asia is almost totaly different game than TERA US/EU, cause they know that ppl in EU/US will never step in the that playstyle. Over 2 years they worked hard in implementing lore and quests and tweeking the game to be comfy for us.
I think it's a bit too early to bash on a game. Play it first then decide whether you like it or not.
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idd, there are few mmos out there including the most subbed one where you can run endlessly for UBER gear. so not every game needs to use same format of end game and im happy when finally someone is doing it differently.
All the boosting up does is ensure you don't get one shot by a player and allow lvl 1 players to jump in at a disadvantage but one that doesn't mean they can't participate, it will be two shot probably against the fully geared/skill/trait unlocked lvl 80 player. WvW is not what you are making it out to be.
Well, the point is even though Guild Wars 1 got released around the same time as WoW, it still managed to survive even with less content. I have a feeling that Guild Wars 2's B2P business model is going to keep Guild Wars 2 successful.
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What in the fuck? That's all I have to say to this.
GW2 will have success that is not questionable but the whole HYPE around the game is more fabricated than it is as it is.
Honestly, I should be asking you that.
I'm not trying to impress, but I sure as hell don't like it when people say baseless stuff and try and pass it off as fact. There IS a ton of info on the game, any idiot who knows how to use Google can see that. I guess I just don't understand why you choose to ignore that.
Do I think the game is the coming Messiah? Of course not. But I know what the game is, and how it plays. There's also pleanty of reports on the game (both good and bad) for those that actually bother to read them. Blanket comments like your original post show neither a hidden sense of clarity nor an intelligent skepticism of the game. It's flinging crap at a wall to see what sticks.
May I direct you to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-UZFu7yZEw
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/primordus-visions-f15.html (if you don't feel like using the above link, here's a more direct one to the section of the forums dedicated to suggestions, requests, and criticism of the game)
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Main_Page
http://www.gw2tools.com/skills
Hell, there's even a thread on this very site about 'what we don't know about the game yet'.
Again, the game most definitely has issues. However, some are a bit more valid than others. Calling this game a rehash of every other themepark MMO is baseless on so many different levels it's facepalm worthy.
Uninformed person is uninformed, don't bother trying to comprehend his post.
I disagree, it's exactly what I'm making it out to be.
I'm not saying a boosted level 1 player will have the exact same power as a fully geared level 80 player. I'm saying the game does pretty much everything it can to ensure that low level players can compete, should they wish to.
If they gave you gear and trait points - they'd completely nullify the PvE leveling. For some reason, they WANT the game to have a semi-traditional level 1-80 PvE game.
Gear is easy to attain and the high level stuff is going to be VERY similar. They simply don't WANT a power differential and they WANT it to be fair and structured.
Why be in denial about that? It's one of the most obvious goals of the design.
I haven't called it a rehash at all. You're delusional.
I've read pretty much everything there is to read about it, at least I did until I "possibly played it" and determined that it wouldn't be for me.
Have you actually played it? Or have you just already made up your mind that you are not going to like it, and feel the need to bash it as well?
When you have siege weapons that can hit for up to 10K, your unlocked gear/skills/traits aren't going to help you survive that.
Victory in WvW will be based on the numbers. You have more, you win. It won't come down to the 1v1 combat where balance really matters.
The competative 5v5 PvP will do though, so there is where you will find all gear/skills/traits unlocked to give you a fair chance. You won't get that in WvW and nor should you, but at the same time if you go into WvW at level 2 you will still be able to make a difference. Although I'd recommend unlocking your weapons kills at least first.
The Enlightened take things Lightly
I can't confirm or deny that I actually played it for several hours on more than one occasion.
For some reason, you're calling me a troll or an idiot - and you seem to assume that I don't know what I'm talking about, and you seem to think you're the only person here who might have played it.
Maybe you should consider that I actually know about the game and that I've actually got a point. Maybe it's ok to simply disagree with me - and maybe it pays to point out exactly where I'm wrong and where I'm "lying".
If you can't point that out with concrete and precise information, I fail to see the point of this exchange.
I stopped insulting for the sake of insulting many years ago.
Depending on your build and class, you can have up to around ~30k hp or so. However, ya multiple of the right siege weapons on any player will be an instant kill. You're absolutely right bout the numbers, though. And ya, once you get all your weapon skills unlocked, you'll be able to hold your own fairly well against most people (though that won't happen until you're ~lvl 3-4 at the earliest)