Whenever I think of the way combat and roles in a MMO "should be" I always think back and reference the scene in the Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring where they are in the dwarf place and fighting all the orcs/goblins and then the cave troll.
Combat is fluid, it's involved, but there are no clear cut roles but each character has a unique contribution to the battle.
Blocking projectiles - No shooting arrows through enemies or friends
Friendly fire - Careful with those fireballs
Improved AI - No more taunting
If it has 4, it pretty much negates a lot of the functionality of 1. Taunting is a logical RPG feature, but it is a ridiculouslt contrived mechanic that has a negative impact on a lot of the current attempts to put more action and tactical gameplay into the MMO combat experience.
Could you expand a little bit how 4 negates, or partially negates, 1?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Blocking projectiles - No shooting arrows through enemies or friends
Friendly fire - Careful with those fireballs
Improved AI - No more taunting
I think guild wars 2 has all but number three.
number three would add some strategy for sure.. deck everyone out in fire gear and release the wizards!
I think Anet announced last year that they wouldn't have bodyblocking although they had it in GW1. Collision detection is very resource demanding especially in large scale and WvWvW is large scale. They have 2 and 4 tho.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Blocking projectiles - No shooting arrows through enemies or friends
Friendly fire - Careful with those fireballs
Improved AI - No more taunting
I think guild wars 2 has all but number three.
number three would add some strategy for sure.. deck everyone out in fire gear and release the wizards!
I think Anet announced last year that they wouldn't have bodyblocking although they had it in GW1. Collision detection is very resource demanding especially in large scale and WvWvW is large scale. They have 2 and 4 tho.
Fairly certain they put body-blocking (only on enemies) back in for competitive PvP.
Blocking projectiles - No shooting arrows through enemies or friends
Friendly fire - Careful with those fireballs
Improved AI - No more taunting
I think guild wars 2 has all but number three.
number three would add some strategy for sure.. deck everyone out in fire gear and release the wizards!
I think Anet announced last year that they wouldn't have bodyblocking although they had it in GW1. Collision detection is very resource demanding especially in large scale and WvWvW is large scale. They have 2 and 4 tho.
I have only played a handful of MMO's , but in these handful of MMO's I have started to see a evolution of the Trinity.
FFXI - Made Grouping, Trinity a Must, made all creatures requiring the trinity to take down.
WOW - Made Trinity Specific and Understandable. A tank is a tank, a Healer is a healer, A Dps is a Dps. One role and made it simple to understand.
Rift - Trinity still exists, but now each class can do one or the other within the Trinity roles. You can be a Mage dps, or mage healer. You can be a tank, or a dps. Trinity is there, you are given more options.
TERA - Trinity is still there, but with a different take, now in order for you to heal anyone, you need to aim your magic toward the person. There is no more tab Targeting. But there is still a tank that taunts, healer that out heals damage.
GW2 - Trinity is blurred, Tanks no longer taunts, Healers can no longer out heal damage taken, and everyone can dps with a simple switch of a weapon set.
What do you think the next stage of Trinity will consist of.
GW2 opened the door, if it succeeds the Trinity will be reborn as something entirely new and innovative for the future of MMO's.
What else can be changed to revitalize the imagination of developers so that we can see something entirely new and different.
Because now we know that Healers and Tanks aren't needed anymore in an MMO, what would be the next step in its evolution?
You forget to mention that WOW has also added additional sub-categories to the trinity with interesting mechanics.
- range DPS, melee DPS play very differently, AOE DPS is also different from single target DPS.
Trinity could be removed if the game was based in skills instead of predefined classes, players should learn whatever skills they want, thus giving interesting combinations of builds for every player. of course this wouldnt stop some idiots to create cookie cutter skills, you cant fight with that....
3 man groups instead of the usual 5-6. So yes.. the rebirth of a "trinity"
the reasoning is simple. In a group of 5 or 6 the mob has to be tuned to resist an onslaught of 5-6 people, thus for any one person, that is far to much in relation to their characters strength.
bust it down to 3 man...and you bring the encounter more in line with the player, and you dont have a total mess of people swarming around.
3 man is also more strategic overall since "pile ons" are less likely to be the dominant form of gameplay. This also works in pvp.
three is optimal in every situation in terms of player involvement, content for smaller groups ( say 2 or 1 players) and overall there will be a better overall experience per player.
Diablo 3 does not use the holy trinity with groups up to 4 players.
In my experience giving players too much customization always leads to disaster. The first issue is that there Always a superior build compared to the rest, so players only have the illusion of choice anyway. The second is that too many options make the game too difficult to balance which ruins PvP. The result is that when you reach level cap a player either has to play the FoTM spec or get shafted by their peers.
People think that getting rid of the trinity will solve this issue but the trinity itself is not the problem, it's too many false choices. The only real solution is strict adherence to the trinity where each class is designated to specialize in a single role (tank, healer, or dps) and play that role well with no deviation.
Having manufactored strengths and weaknesses means that no class can beat every other class 1vs1 and creates mandatory interdependence between the roles to work as a team. Interdependence also creates a stronger community as a whole.
I myself was not a fan of the trinity, but I've tried many games that have deviated from the original design and it has only made endgame worse and not better.
In my experience giving players too much customization always leads to disaster. The first issue is that there Always a superior build compared to the rest, so players only have the illusion of choice anyway. The second is that too many options make the game too difficult to balance which ruins PvP. The result is that when you reach level cap a player either has to play the FoTM spec or get shafted by their peers.
People think that getting rid of the trinity will solve this issue but the trinity itself is not the problem, it's too many false choices. The only real solution is strict adherence to the trinity where each class is designated to specialize in a single role (tank, healer, or dps) and play that role well with no deviation.
Having manufactored strengths and weaknesses means that no class can beat every other class 1vs1 and creates mandatory interdependence between the roles to work as a team. Interdependence also creates a stronger community as a whole.
I myself was not a fan of the trinity, but I've tried many games that have deviated from the original design and it has only made endgame worse and not better.
I disagree with this. Choice will always be more fun than no choice. Personally i like no classes and unlimited skills per player, though you have to choose a subset of this at any one time. For every FOTM there is a counter. This also has a side effect of more overall content. If everyone has the same access to skills.. All you need to do is develop skills in duplicate...say fire.....resist fire..
what i do think is necessary is smaller groups, and as others have suggested, more strategic cooperative gameplay. I just dont see the sense of 5-6 or more man groups. You can get way more with less. More content, more challenge, better groups, more activity per player.
In my experience giving players too much customization always leads to disaster. The first issue is that there Always a superior build compared to the rest, so players only have the illusion of choice anyway. The second is that too many options make the game too difficult to balance which ruins PvP. The result is that when you reach level cap a player either has to play the FoTM spec or get shafted by their peers.
People think that getting rid of the trinity will solve this issue but the trinity itself is not the problem, it's too many false choices. The only real solution is strict adherence to the trinity where each class is designated to specialize in a single role (tank, healer, or dps) and play that role well with no deviation.
Having manufactored strengths and weaknesses means that no class can beat every other class 1vs1 and creates mandatory interdependence between the roles to work as a team. Interdependence also creates a stronger community as a whole.
I myself was not a fan of the trinity, but I've tried many games that have deviated from the original design and it has only made endgame worse and not better.
I disagree with this. Choice will always be more fun than no choice. Personally i like no classes and unlimited skills per player, though you have to choose a subset of this at any one time. For every FOTM there is a counter. This also has a side effect of more overall content. If everyone has the same access to skills.. All you need to do is develop skills in duplicate...say fire.....resist fire..
what i do think is necessary is smaller groups, and as others have suggested, more strategic cooperative gameplay. I just dont see the sense of 5-6 or more man groups. You can get way more with less. More content, more challenge, better groups, more activity per player.
The main problem isn't choice, or having any specializing in Roles. The problem is when you have a role that only requires one player and you need that one player inorder to continue.
Having a Healer, Tank, DPS you have to have a Healer and a Tank and a DPS inorder to continue your journey and progress.
Tank , DPS will not work without Healer
Healer, DPS will not work without Tank
Healer, Tank will not work without DPS
This is whats wrong with the Trinity.....and this is whats being changed with the evolution of The Trinity in GW2.
And with this Evolution, we will understand that TAnks with taunts arn't needed anymore, Healers with heals is also not necessary anymore. This is the future of gaming, and its a good future.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
In my experience giving players too much customization always leads to disaster. The first issue is that there Always a superior build compared to the rest, so players only have the illusion of choice anyway. The second is that too many options make the game too difficult to balance which ruins PvP. The result is that when you reach level cap a player either has to play the FoTM spec or get shafted by their peers.
This is correct, I agree.
People think that getting rid of the trinity will solve this issue but the trinity itself is not the problem, it's too many false choices. The only real solution is strict adherence to the trinity where each class is designated to specialize in a single role (tank, healer, or dps) and play that role well with no deviation.
No, getting rid of trinity does not remove this problem, but it makes balancing easier because it bring PvP and PvE closer together. When abilities and classes have a similar role in both, both are easier to balance. For example, there is no need for a tank in PvP in the traditional sense. Removing arcaic aggro and taunt mechanics from PvE (which do not work in PvP) you bring the PvE tank closer to what it does in PvP. Furthermore you reduce the chance of having classes/abilities that only work in one or the other.
Having manufactored strengths and weaknesses means that no class can beat every other class 1vs1 and creates mandatory interdependence between the roles to work as a team. Interdependence also creates a stronger community as a whole.
True, but this must not be taken into extremes, hard counters to classes are frustrating to players and there is the matter of conveniency: People waiting hours to have a player fill a group role X is not very attractive.
I myself was not a fan of the trinity, but I've tried many games that have deviated from the original design and it has only made endgame worse and not better.
I recommend trying GW1 while there are still players playing it. It is one of the most balanced PvP games out there hands down. Arenanet tried unconventional party dynamics in that game already. Most notably it had no traditional tank, better than average AI and stronger than usual emphasis on crowd control and proactive defense (meaning preventing damage not just healing).
Replies in green.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
That's a big assumption that GW2 will fix any of the grouping issues for the hard mode content. Maybe it will not require a dedicated tank, or healer, but it's not too far off to believe that some classes will be able to tackle the hard mode content easier than other classes. What if 3 out of the 8 classes have specific builds that make them mandatory for completing the hard mode content? How is that any different then the trinity?
But then you can say that if 3 classes to prove to be superior to all the other classes that ArenaNet will just nerf them, and then what happens? 3 other classes will become the new FoTM, and then players will cry tears that their class is underpowered and that they will quit if they are not buffed etc, and then the devs will have to go through a series of nerfs and buffs every month. Or worse nerf the hard mode content itself so that all the classes can beat it easily. How is that better than just having the trinity?
Even GW1 had specific set class builds necessary for speed farming the dungeon content. People don't like the trinity but at leas the trinity is realistic. The tirinity simply embraces that fact that some classes/builds are going to be superior to other classes/builds when performing a specific function in a group. You say that GW2 is going to magically change all that, well I'll believe it when I see it.
That's a big assumption that GW2 will fix any of the grouping issues for the hard mode content. Maybe it will not require a dedicated tank, or healer, but it's not too far off to believe that some classes will be able to tackle the hard mode content easier than other classes. What if 3 out of the 8 classes have specific builds that make them mandatory for completing the hard mode content? How is that any different then the trinity?
But then you can say that if 3 classes to prove to be superior to all the other classes that ArenaNet will just nerf them, and then what happens? 3 other classes will become the new FoTM, and then players will cry tears that their class is underpowered and that they will quit if they are not buffed etc, and then the devs will have to go through a series of nerfs and buffs every month. Or worse nerf the hard mode content itself so that all the classes can beat it easily. How is that better than just having the trinity?
Even GW1 had specific set class builds necessary for speed farming the dungeon content. People don't like the trinity but at leas the trinity is realistic. The tirinity simply embraces that fact that some classes/builds are going to be superior to other classes/builds when performing a specific function in a group. You say that GW2 is going to magically change all that, well I'll believe it when I see it.
You are taking the worst case scenario as an example of how it will work all the time. And I think frequent balancing is actually good for the metagame. Keeps players inventing new builds.
Nothing is further from realism than the traditional trinity. It all rests on the fact that mobs are too stupid to attack something that is actually threatening. It makes combat very predictable and formulaic. It's about time we got games that do not insult our intelligence. GW2's system is a fresh and much needed take on MMORPG combat.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
A real alternative to the trinity needs to come. I'm so sick of it. It's boring. But without turning to a MMO-action-fps-rpg. I don't know how anyone could do it.
It still manifests itself in classless unrestrict skill progressions once people discover the optimal builds for tank, healer, dps, cc, support.
Making all classes hybrids doesn't get rid of it. It just means one second your tank is healing, your dps is a tank, and your healer is dpsing. Switching and hybriding doesn't get rid of it or offer anything new.
Bodyblocking and friendly fire would definitely make combat more nifty and interesting, but I don't know if it would change the archetypes. I just see tanks up front, healers behind, melee DPS on the flanks skirmishing, ranged dps behind trying their best to shoot around, over, and through the tanks and healers. I'd play a game like that. It would be cool, but still trinity. :P
....
Realistically some of the trinity is appropriate. Someone in heavy plate & SS would take more hits but not be quick enough, have as much stamina to output as many hits as someone DW & unarmored. So that's like real life Tank and DPS. But it gets fuzzy with ranged DPS, healers, and mages. It's like we can't look to real life to understand how a mage should fight.... unless anyone ever met harry potter?
I agree, that tanks are generally worthless in PvP because in PvP you have to kill stuff and defensive builds deal next to no damage. However healers are not useless at all, they are very viable in PvP, so getting rid of Both tanks and healers for the sake of PvP doesn't make sense. Also we're only talking about one aspect of PvP and that's Arena deathmatch PvP. Having both a tank and healer build has proven to be an extremely powerful combination in object oriented PvP especially with capture the flag mechanics. As far as I know GW2 doesn't even have death match type PvP, unless you count WvWvW which isn't supposed to be balanced by classes in the first place.
I'm not talking about worse case scenario, I'm talking about something that's pretty much happened in every single major MMO that I have played. I don't agree that frequent balancing is necessary, especially not for PvP. Too many times have I played a class stricly in PvE, and my abilities have been nerfed because of something someone did in PvP that is completely unrelated to me. I'm talking about multiple MMOs here, and it's really irratating. I would rather have a game where I can play my class because it's really good at what it does, and nobody complains about it because that's simply the way the class it designed.
If you are talking about poor AI, then that's a separate issue from the trinity. I can name a lot of games that don't use the trinity but have extremely poor AI, also I'm pretty sure I heard complaints about GW2 Ranger's pets having poor AI. I don't know if they fixed it or not but the major complaint was that Ranger pets die pretty easily because they are dumb, and run into every hit. I'm not saying that GW2 has poor AI, but I'm saying that poor AI is the fault of poor AI design and not the trinity itself.
I agree, that tanks are generally worthless in PvP because in PvP you have to kill stuff and defensive builds deal next to no damage. However healers are not useless at all, they are very viable in PvP, so getting rid of Both tanks and healers for the sake of PvP doesn't make sense. Also we're only talking about one aspect of PvP and that's Arena deathmatch PvP. Having both a tank and healer build has proven to be an extremely powerful combination in object oriented PvP especially with capture the flag mechanics. As far as I know GW2 doesn't even have death match type PvP, unless you count WvWvW which isn't supposed to be balanced by classes in the first place.
I'm not talking about worse case scenario, I'm talking about something that's pretty much happened in every single major MMO that I have played. I don't agree that frequent balancing is necessary, especially not for PvP. Too many times have I played a class stricly in PvE, and my abilities have been nerfed because of something someone did in PvP that is completely unrelated to me. I'm talking about multiple MMOs here, and it's really irratating. I would rather have a game where I can play my class because it's really good at what it does, and nobody complains about it because that's simply the way the class it designed.
If you are talking about poor AI, then that's a separate issue from the trinity. I can name a lot of games that don't use the trinity but have extremely poor AI, also I'm pretty sure I heard complaints about GW2 Ranger's pets having poor AI. I don't know if they fixed it or not but the major complaint was that Ranger pets die pretty easily because they are dumb, and run into every hit. I'm not saying that GW2 has poor AI, but I'm saying that poor AI is the fault of poor AI design and not the trinity itself.
This isn't a thread about whether or not Trinity is bad, its about how Trinity can now be changed because ANet decided to take the chance and eliminated Trinity. When tanks can not taunt, there is no tank. When healers can't out heal damage taken there is no healer.
This is a thread about the next step after Anet.
Besides, one of the major problems with Trinity is that you need a certain class inorder to progress, you have to have a tank, you have to have a healer, everyone else is replaceable.
Even if there is 3 class that does it best that can take the most damage, heal you the best, you can still do the content without those three, that is the next step in the Trinity Evolution because regardless of how good they are, they still can not taunt, they still can not out heal the damage received.
And regarding the AI , most gamers just doesn't want to see the boss mobs only attack the Tank just because they called their mother fat. They want the boss mobs to neglect all others if they feel you are a threat to them and head straight toward you. From what Anet stated, if you are low in health, the mobs will notice it and will head straight toward you.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
I have only played a handful of MMO's , but in these handful of MMO's I have started to see a evolution of the Trinity.
FFXI - Made Grouping, Trinity a Must, made all creatures requiring the trinity to take down.
WOW - Made Trinity Specific and Understandable. A tank is a tank, a Healer is a healer, A Dps is a Dps. One role and made it simple to understand.
Rift - Trinity still exists, but now each class can do one or the other within the Trinity roles. You can be a Mage dps, or mage healer. You can be a tank, or a dps. Trinity is there, you are given more options.
TERA - Trinity is still there, but with a different take, now in order for you to heal anyone, you need to aim your magic toward the person. There is no more tab Targeting. But there is still a tank that taunts, healer that out heals damage.
GW2 - Trinity is blurred, Tanks no longer taunts, Healers can no longer out heal damage taken, and everyone can dps with a simple switch of a weapon set.
What do you think the next stage of Trinity will consist of.
GW2 opened the door, if it succeeds the Trinity will be reborn as something entirely new and innovative for the future of MMO's.
What else can be changed to revitalize the imagination of developers so that we can see something entirely new and different.
Because now we know that Healers and Tanks aren't needed anymore in an MMO, what would be the next step in its evolution?
just one note on tera, you just need a cleric all the otehr 4 peeps will dps not need to worry about tanking
I agree, that tanks are generally worthless in PvP because in PvP you have to kill stuff and defensive builds deal next to no damage. However healers are not useless at all, they are very viable in PvP, so getting rid of Both tanks and healers for the sake of PvP doesn't make sense. Also we're only talking about one aspect of PvP and that's Arena deathmatch PvP. Having both a tank and healer build has proven to be an extremely powerful combination in object oriented PvP especially with capture the flag mechanics. As far as I know GW2 doesn't even have death match type PvP, unless you count WvWvW which isn't supposed to be balanced by classes in the first place.
I'm not talking about worse case scenario, I'm talking about something that's pretty much happened in every single major MMO that I have played. I don't agree that frequent balancing is necessary, especially not for PvP. Too many times have I played a class stricly in PvE, and my abilities have been nerfed because of something someone did in PvP that is completely unrelated to me. I'm talking about multiple MMOs here, and it's really irratating. I would rather have a game where I can play my class because it's really good at what it does, and nobody complains about it because that's simply the way the class it designed.
If you are talking about poor AI, then that's a separate issue from the trinity. I can name a lot of games that don't use the trinity but have extremely poor AI, also I'm pretty sure I heard complaints about GW2 Ranger's pets having poor AI. I don't know if they fixed it or not but the major complaint was that Ranger pets die pretty easily because they are dumb, and run into every hit. I'm not saying that GW2 has poor AI, but I'm saying that poor AI is the fault of poor AI design and not the trinity itself.
This isn't a thread about whether or not Trinity is bad, its about how Trinity can now be changed because ANet decided to take the chance and eliminated Trinity. When tanks can not taunt, there is no tank. When healers can't out heal damage taken there is no healer.
This is a thread about the next step after Anet.
Besides, one of the major problems with Trinity is that you need a certain class inorder to progress, you have to have a tank, you have to have a healer, everyone else is replaceable.
Even if there is 3 class that does it best that can take the most damage, heal you the best, you can still do the content without those three, that is the next step in the Trinity Evolution because regardless of how good they are, they still can not taunt, they still can not out heal the damage received.
And regarding the AI , most gamers just doesn't want to see the boss mobs only attack the Tank just because they called their mother fat. They want the boss mobs to neglect all others if they feel you are a threat to them and head straight toward you. From what Anet stated, if you are low in health, the mobs will notice it and will head straight toward you.
Trinity runs way deeper than AI, taunts, heals. GW2 is still working with the fundamental gameplay that created the trinity. They''re just twisting it around and making it more complicated. All the niftyness will probably make it fun, but it's not like they're reinventing the wheel.
Trinity runs way deeper than AI, taunts, heals. GW2 is still working with the fundamental gameplay that created the trinity. They''re just twisting it around and making it more complicated. All the niftyness will probably make it fun, but it's not like they're reinventing the wheel.
I've seen countless GW2 group content videos and never seen anyone who's been able to effectively Tank (without dying or losing aggro), or Heal others through the damage they take (especially in Explorable mode). It just doesn't happen in GW2. Sure you can take a few hits for someone or provide some splash heals, but you're never stuck in such a role and trying to dedicate yourself to a Tank or Healer role is just not optimal in GW2. Just watch some of the countless gameplay vids to understand how different group combat will be.
A lot of people are still under the misconception that characters in GW2 will still have defined roles that simply behave differently than "normal" trinity. What's more accurate, in practice, is realizing that the old "roles" concepts have been removed from the players, placed in a blender, pureed to a fine, fluidic goo and poured over the skills instead of the players themselves. Whatever you take for a profession and build you won't be able to focus on any one aspect of combat (damage, control, support) alone. You'll have skills that require you to use them at the right time for best effect. You'll have skills that control and damage the enemy, that can interrupt the enemy, that provide buffs for allies and/or debuffs for foes, any mix of all of the above, etc. In practice you'll find that you're not switching roles on the fly as has been mentioned in the past. Instead you'll simply be using the right skills when best needed (hopefully). Maybe a mesmer, for example, sees an ally in trouble, so he creates a couple clones to target that ally's foe and, having traited to have clones cripple on shatter, hits F1 to have the clones cripple and damage the foe, giving the ally time to separate from the foe. Then he switches to a staff and throws up a chaos storm to apply random debuffs to the foe, random buffs to the ally and damages the foe as well. The foe gets annoyed with the mesmer and begins to come at him... switch to greatsword, knock the foe back to a safe distance, more clones, more shatters, etc.
Situational awareness will be the key now that the trinity is gone. You're responsible for yourself as well as being "your brother's keeper" if you wish.
And regarding the AI , most gamers just doesn't want to see the boss mobs only attack the Tank just because they called their mother fat. They want the boss mobs to neglect all others if they feel you are a threat to them and head straight toward you. From what Anet stated, if you are low in health, the mobs will notice it and will head straight toward you.
So basically they are bringing back a mechanic that EQ had 13 years ago in which if a person is low on health they given a bonus (or penalty depending on how you look at it) to its hate with a mob so that they are more likely to be attacked.
I call that going back to basics rather than innovation as it is a mechanic that never should have been removed from the genre. Next will you be telling me that if a mob is low on health they will try to flee to their comrads for help? (another old mechanic that has been seemingly removed the from the genre)
And regarding the AI , most gamers just doesn't want to see the boss mobs only attack the Tank just because they called their mother fat. They want the boss mobs to neglect all others if they feel you are a threat to them and head straight toward you. From what Anet stated, if you are low in health, the mobs will notice it and will head straight toward you.
So basically they are bringing back a mechanic that EQ had 13 years ago in which if a person is low on health they given a bonus (or penalty depending on how you look at it) to its hate with a mob so that they are more likely to be attacked.
I call that going back to basics rather than innovation as it is a mechanic that never should have been removed from the genre. Next will you be telling me that if a mob is low on health they will try to flee to their comrads for help? (another old mechanic that has been seemingly removed the from the genre)
Hmm... they had that in GW1, mobs would try to flee when low on health. Of course, then they'd turn around and wind up coming back, poor little buggers.
We don't know all the aggro mechanics yet for GW2, they haven't told us. Things mentioned as factors (not confirmed) include proximity, armor classes (heavy, medium, light), amount of damage being done to the mob, health of characters, etc. It may be that different mob types have different mechanics. "Animal" types may choose proximity where humanoid may choose the weaker targets or biggest threats. Again, this is all preliminary, we don't have the hard data yet.
Am I the only one that thinks that GW2 combat sounds terrible? While I will probably try GW2 in a couple of months. I just don't think playing tank, healer, dps, and controller at the same time sounds fun. It might just be but every time I hear someone talk about GW2 combat all I can do is wonder what the heck the less then skilled players in my old raids will do. They barily could play one role with addons and not die in the ground fire or move on command. Now they have to move, tank, dps, heal and do buffs/CC. Yeah I am sure that will go well. Also I have try games before with "no trinity" and it always became kill the mobs faster then they can kill you. Sure there was a couple of ccs but no one healed no one tanked, it was just a dps race.
But then again this is just me and I like the trinity system and raids, in fact I like a large system then the trinity like EQ had with not only healer, tanks and dps, but with controllers, debuffers, doters, buffers, support healers, offtanks etc..
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
Am I the only one that thinks that GW2 combat sounds terrible? While I will probably try GW2 in a couple of months. I just don't think playing tank, healer, dps, and controller at the same time sounds fun. It might just be but every time I hear someone talk about GW2 combat all I can do is wonder what the heck the less then skilled players in my old raids will do. They barily could play one role with addons and not die in the ground fire or move on command. Now they have to move, tank, dps, heal and do buffs/CC. Yeah I am sure that will go well. Also I have try games before with "no trinity" and it always became kill the mobs faster then they can kill you. Sure there was a couple of ccs but no one healed no one tanked, it was just a dps race.
But then again this is just me and I like the trinity system and raids, in fact I like a large system then the trinity like EQ had with not only healer, tanks and dps, but with controllers, debuffers, doters, buffers, support healers, offtanks etc..
Just remember if you do try it not to try it like you're playing WoW or those style games. You cannot simply park in one spot and burn things down. That's a common mistake seen and heard in the beta vids... people tried to play it like WoW, thought it was too hard or not fun, but then realized to play it differently and things began to click.
Comments
I second this thought...
Could you expand a little bit how 4 negates, or partially negates, 1?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I think Anet announced last year that they wouldn't have bodyblocking although they had it in GW1. Collision detection is very resource demanding especially in large scale and WvWvW is large scale. They have 2 and 4 tho.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Fairly certain they put body-blocking (only on enemies) back in for competitive PvP.
Yeah, no bodyblocking in GW2 unfortunately.
I'd love to see an mmo with friendly fire.
You forget to mention that WOW has also added additional sub-categories to the trinity with interesting mechanics.
- range DPS, melee DPS play very differently, AOE DPS is also different from single target DPS.
- main tank, off tank, AOE tank
- tank heal, raid heal
Trinity could be removed if the game was based in skills instead of predefined classes, players should learn whatever skills they want, thus giving interesting combinations of builds for every player. of course this wouldnt stop some idiots to create cookie cutter skills, you cant fight with that....
Diablo 3 does not use the holy trinity with groups up to 4 players.
May be that is the way to go.
People think that getting rid of the trinity will solve this issue but the trinity itself is not the problem, it's too many false choices. The only real solution is strict adherence to the trinity where each class is designated to specialize in a single role (tank, healer, or dps) and play that role well with no deviation.
Having manufactored strengths and weaknesses means that no class can beat every other class 1vs1 and creates mandatory interdependence between the roles to work as a team. Interdependence also creates a stronger community as a whole.
I myself was not a fan of the trinity, but I've tried many games that have deviated from the original design and it has only made endgame worse and not better.
I disagree with this. Choice will always be more fun than no choice. Personally i like no classes and unlimited skills per player, though you have to choose a subset of this at any one time. For every FOTM there is a counter. This also has a side effect of more overall content. If everyone has the same access to skills.. All you need to do is develop skills in duplicate...say fire.....resist fire..
what i do think is necessary is smaller groups, and as others have suggested, more strategic cooperative gameplay. I just dont see the sense of 5-6 or more man groups. You can get way more with less. More content, more challenge, better groups, more activity per player.
The main problem isn't choice, or having any specializing in Roles. The problem is when you have a role that only requires one player and you need that one player inorder to continue.
Having a Healer, Tank, DPS you have to have a Healer and a Tank and a DPS inorder to continue your journey and progress.
Tank , DPS will not work without Healer
Healer, DPS will not work without Tank
Healer, Tank will not work without DPS
This is whats wrong with the Trinity.....and this is whats being changed with the evolution of The Trinity in GW2.
And with this Evolution, we will understand that TAnks with taunts arn't needed anymore, Healers with heals is also not necessary anymore. This is the future of gaming, and its a good future.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
Replies in green.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
That's a big assumption that GW2 will fix any of the grouping issues for the hard mode content. Maybe it will not require a dedicated tank, or healer, but it's not too far off to believe that some classes will be able to tackle the hard mode content easier than other classes. What if 3 out of the 8 classes have specific builds that make them mandatory for completing the hard mode content? How is that any different then the trinity?
But then you can say that if 3 classes to prove to be superior to all the other classes that ArenaNet will just nerf them, and then what happens? 3 other classes will become the new FoTM, and then players will cry tears that their class is underpowered and that they will quit if they are not buffed etc, and then the devs will have to go through a series of nerfs and buffs every month. Or worse nerf the hard mode content itself so that all the classes can beat it easily. How is that better than just having the trinity?
Even GW1 had specific set class builds necessary for speed farming the dungeon content. People don't like the trinity but at leas the trinity is realistic. The tirinity simply embraces that fact that some classes/builds are going to be superior to other classes/builds when performing a specific function in a group. You say that GW2 is going to magically change all that, well I'll believe it when I see it.
You are taking the worst case scenario as an example of how it will work all the time. And I think frequent balancing is actually good for the metagame. Keeps players inventing new builds.
Nothing is further from realism than the traditional trinity. It all rests on the fact that mobs are too stupid to attack something that is actually threatening. It makes combat very predictable and formulaic. It's about time we got games that do not insult our intelligence. GW2's system is a fresh and much needed take on MMORPG combat.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
A real alternative to the trinity needs to come. I'm so sick of it. It's boring. But without turning to a MMO-action-fps-rpg. I don't know how anyone could do it.
It still manifests itself in classless unrestrict skill progressions once people discover the optimal builds for tank, healer, dps, cc, support.
Making all classes hybrids doesn't get rid of it. It just means one second your tank is healing, your dps is a tank, and your healer is dpsing. Switching and hybriding doesn't get rid of it or offer anything new.
Bodyblocking and friendly fire would definitely make combat more nifty and interesting, but I don't know if it would change the archetypes. I just see tanks up front, healers behind, melee DPS on the flanks skirmishing, ranged dps behind trying their best to shoot around, over, and through the tanks and healers. I'd play a game like that. It would be cool, but still trinity. :P
....
Realistically some of the trinity is appropriate. Someone in heavy plate & SS would take more hits but not be quick enough, have as much stamina to output as many hits as someone DW & unarmored. So that's like real life Tank and DPS. But it gets fuzzy with ranged DPS, healers, and mages. It's like we can't look to real life to understand how a mage should fight.... unless anyone ever met harry potter?
I agree, that tanks are generally worthless in PvP because in PvP you have to kill stuff and defensive builds deal next to no damage. However healers are not useless at all, they are very viable in PvP, so getting rid of Both tanks and healers for the sake of PvP doesn't make sense. Also we're only talking about one aspect of PvP and that's Arena deathmatch PvP. Having both a tank and healer build has proven to be an extremely powerful combination in object oriented PvP especially with capture the flag mechanics. As far as I know GW2 doesn't even have death match type PvP, unless you count WvWvW which isn't supposed to be balanced by classes in the first place.
I'm not talking about worse case scenario, I'm talking about something that's pretty much happened in every single major MMO that I have played. I don't agree that frequent balancing is necessary, especially not for PvP. Too many times have I played a class stricly in PvE, and my abilities have been nerfed because of something someone did in PvP that is completely unrelated to me. I'm talking about multiple MMOs here, and it's really irratating. I would rather have a game where I can play my class because it's really good at what it does, and nobody complains about it because that's simply the way the class it designed.
If you are talking about poor AI, then that's a separate issue from the trinity. I can name a lot of games that don't use the trinity but have extremely poor AI, also I'm pretty sure I heard complaints about GW2 Ranger's pets having poor AI. I don't know if they fixed it or not but the major complaint was that Ranger pets die pretty easily because they are dumb, and run into every hit. I'm not saying that GW2 has poor AI, but I'm saying that poor AI is the fault of poor AI design and not the trinity itself.
This isn't a thread about whether or not Trinity is bad, its about how Trinity can now be changed because ANet decided to take the chance and eliminated Trinity. When tanks can not taunt, there is no tank. When healers can't out heal damage taken there is no healer.
This is a thread about the next step after Anet.
Besides, one of the major problems with Trinity is that you need a certain class inorder to progress, you have to have a tank, you have to have a healer, everyone else is replaceable.
Even if there is 3 class that does it best that can take the most damage, heal you the best, you can still do the content without those three, that is the next step in the Trinity Evolution because regardless of how good they are, they still can not taunt, they still can not out heal the damage received.
And regarding the AI , most gamers just doesn't want to see the boss mobs only attack the Tank just because they called their mother fat. They want the boss mobs to neglect all others if they feel you are a threat to them and head straight toward you. From what Anet stated, if you are low in health, the mobs will notice it and will head straight toward you.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
just one note on tera, you just need a cleric all the otehr 4 peeps will dps not need to worry about tanking
Trinity runs way deeper than AI, taunts, heals. GW2 is still working with the fundamental gameplay that created the trinity. They''re just twisting it around and making it more complicated. All the niftyness will probably make it fun, but it's not like they're reinventing the wheel.
I've seen countless GW2 group content videos and never seen anyone who's been able to effectively Tank (without dying or losing aggro), or Heal others through the damage they take (especially in Explorable mode). It just doesn't happen in GW2. Sure you can take a few hits for someone or provide some splash heals, but you're never stuck in such a role and trying to dedicate yourself to a Tank or Healer role is just not optimal in GW2. Just watch some of the countless gameplay vids to understand how different group combat will be.
A lot of people are still under the misconception that characters in GW2 will still have defined roles that simply behave differently than "normal" trinity. What's more accurate, in practice, is realizing that the old "roles" concepts have been removed from the players, placed in a blender, pureed to a fine, fluidic goo and poured over the skills instead of the players themselves. Whatever you take for a profession and build you won't be able to focus on any one aspect of combat (damage, control, support) alone. You'll have skills that require you to use them at the right time for best effect. You'll have skills that control and damage the enemy, that can interrupt the enemy, that provide buffs for allies and/or debuffs for foes, any mix of all of the above, etc. In practice you'll find that you're not switching roles on the fly as has been mentioned in the past. Instead you'll simply be using the right skills when best needed (hopefully). Maybe a mesmer, for example, sees an ally in trouble, so he creates a couple clones to target that ally's foe and, having traited to have clones cripple on shatter, hits F1 to have the clones cripple and damage the foe, giving the ally time to separate from the foe. Then he switches to a staff and throws up a chaos storm to apply random debuffs to the foe, random buffs to the ally and damages the foe as well. The foe gets annoyed with the mesmer and begins to come at him... switch to greatsword, knock the foe back to a safe distance, more clones, more shatters, etc.
Situational awareness will be the key now that the trinity is gone. You're responsible for yourself as well as being "your brother's keeper" if you wish.
Oderint, dum metuant.
So basically they are bringing back a mechanic that EQ had 13 years ago in which if a person is low on health they given a bonus (or penalty depending on how you look at it) to its hate with a mob so that they are more likely to be attacked.
I call that going back to basics rather than innovation as it is a mechanic that never should have been removed from the genre. Next will you be telling me that if a mob is low on health they will try to flee to their comrads for help? (another old mechanic that has been seemingly removed the from the genre)
Hmm... they had that in GW1, mobs would try to flee when low on health. Of course, then they'd turn around and wind up coming back, poor little buggers.
We don't know all the aggro mechanics yet for GW2, they haven't told us. Things mentioned as factors (not confirmed) include proximity, armor classes (heavy, medium, light), amount of damage being done to the mob, health of characters, etc. It may be that different mob types have different mechanics. "Animal" types may choose proximity where humanoid may choose the weaker targets or biggest threats. Again, this is all preliminary, we don't have the hard data yet.
Oderint, dum metuant.
Am I the only one that thinks that GW2 combat sounds terrible? While I will probably try GW2 in a couple of months. I just don't think playing tank, healer, dps, and controller at the same time sounds fun. It might just be but every time I hear someone talk about GW2 combat all I can do is wonder what the heck the less then skilled players in my old raids will do. They barily could play one role with addons and not die in the ground fire or move on command. Now they have to move, tank, dps, heal and do buffs/CC. Yeah I am sure that will go well. Also I have try games before with "no trinity" and it always became kill the mobs faster then they can kill you. Sure there was a couple of ccs but no one healed no one tanked, it was just a dps race.
But then again this is just me and I like the trinity system and raids, in fact I like a large system then the trinity like EQ had with not only healer, tanks and dps, but with controllers, debuffers, doters, buffers, support healers, offtanks etc..
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
Just remember if you do try it not to try it like you're playing WoW or those style games. You cannot simply park in one spot and burn things down. That's a common mistake seen and heard in the beta vids... people tried to play it like WoW, thought it was too hard or not fun, but then realized to play it differently and things began to click.
Oderint, dum metuant.