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GW2, The E-sport. A long thread discussing the great state of GW2 as an E-sport.
Nightverge
Member Posts: 211
I recently came across a thread questioning the E-sport scene of GW2 (appropriately labeled "Where is the E-sport?"). Although I did answer in that thread I feel it is kind of unclear within the community the state of GW2 as an E-sport. Its clear to those of us already into E-sports but not clear to the general populace, I believe. I, thus, felt the need to make my post a seperate, informative, thread.
This is the current status of GW2 on the professional level.
As a very competitive player (am transfering from the SC2 E-sport scene to GW2) and a caster of some games myself I was impressed and dissapointed with some things I saw, didn't yet see, and things I know about the E-sport scene of GW2.
If you are interested (which I believe most in this thread would be) than feel free to ask any questions I don't answer in the undoubtedly somewhat lengthy post below.
GW2 brings the first ever live combat scene to an E-sport level. Everything is, surprisingly, very, very well balanced. The two maps we got to play both held their advantages and disadvantages for certain playstyles while providing unique opertunities to gain the upper hand. All things good casters look for to make games exciting is there in spades. Balance spawns creativity in these games. If everything isn't finely tuned the whole scene crumbles. Thankfully that is not the case here. Some dicisions are far more micro than macro though which concerns me as an E-sport player and caster. Most of the dicisions are micro dicisions and not full on macro team efforts. At least they aren't seen as such yet. That will change as people begin casting the games and people realize how big of an impact some of the decisions make.
For example. Placing one man on the tribuchet. That is a micro decision that is often, as of now, made on the spot by individual players. I feel it may take a little while before people realize the significance of sacrificing a person to serve as map control.
The benefits of the tribuchet and the cons went largely unnoticed by most players. As an E-sport player I grasped the concept relatively quickly I believe. The tribuchet provides a sense of map control. The man on the tribuchet has visibility and can attack from range with a strong attack without real threat of being countered unless he is ambushed at the tower. People fail to use the system for its map control though. Instead of jumping in the tribuchet and spamming fire everywhere it should be used to attack and deter organized attacks on outposts that your team does not occupy.
The primary strategy we used was to keep a man on the tribuchet who would tell us where the opposing team was headed. We would go snipe out a point they were not at with our four guys. As their five guys went to snipe out one of our other points they would be harrassed by the tribuchet. They would then retreate or stay and all die due to the Tribuchet range and AoE thus, we have just successfully captured a point without being countered. It is, however a risk. If the man on the cannon doesn't know what he's doing you have sacrificed a team member for nothing. EDIT: In the beta it was 8v8 but we treated it as 5v5 for practice. So our team generally made strategies based around a 5 member model and haphazerdly adapted them to fit 8 people for beta practice. That is why I talk about our beta strategy under a 5 man model.
The game is full of micro decisions like this that do not immediately yield themselves to the understanding that "wow, this team has just wen't all in. If this doesn't work, its over". That is, in large part, how many of the decisions are, which is great as an E-sport. It creates excitement, but only if the audience understands the significance.
Moving on. Some of us in the E-sport scene had the opinion that the players were blended into the crowd too much. These players mostly came from LoL where each man had a specific role. To them, their importance to the team was not as easily spotted. I can't disagree more with this sentiment though myself. It was 8 v 8 in the beta build but professionally the game will be 5v5. With only 5 people on your team each one is integral. People who came from SC2 teams seemed to understand this better as typically in SC2 it is somewhat similar team play. Nobody really has a specific THIS IS YOUR JOB but rather its your duty to adapt and be whatever your team needs you to be. Defense, harrassment, offense, you could cover all of these in ten minutes in SC2. Similarly here you do not begin the game with a clear role in structured PvP. You are part of the team and thus you will be whatever you are needed to be at the moment.
I will now get into the infrastructure of the PvP rather then the ingame goodness. Anet has a phenomenal structure setup which is one reason I am most excited to jump into the scene. Other large sponsors are already jumping on board such as IGN and Esport. Even local guilds like Team Legacy are sponsoring E-sport tournaments for a couple grand. The biggy is Anets tournament though, offering in about a quarter million in annual cash prize is not a bad way to start some buzz in the E-sport world.
This is huge for me. I've been waiting for an E-sport scene exactly like this for a long time. Currently the leagues work in this fassion: The teams that win enough matches in the weekly matches are submitted for the monthly tournament. The teams that win a monthly tournament are submitted into the annuel. The smi-finals of the annuel are flown out, by Anet, to compete for a quarter million in cash prize. The tourny is complete with 2nd and 3rd place prizes as well although those are not yet clear.
This support guarantee's an E-sports scene. It at least gaurantee's participation. Everybody wants a quarter million in cash prize money, so you don't have to worry about the scene drying up at all. Theres that kind of money involved you are going to attract serious players.
That being said, the game lacks proper casting tools RIGHT NOW. Anet has promised support eventually but many of us worry that support won't come soon enough. We need the ability to become a ghost camera and observe matches to live cast, we need replay support, mic support, the works. Otherwise you won't have an audience. To grow the game into a successful E-sport you need an audience, not just participants. The internal prizes, sponserships, and team interest gaurantee's a serious player-base. Without the viewers though it won't ever become a true E-sport. Competitive, sure--but not an E-sport.
Now Anet did say that these tools would be available for sure. Its just a question of how long. That is a large question. If these tools aren't available at launch or close to it they will have missed their chance at an audience. Casters will take one look at whats there and pass it on. If the tools come in a year later its way to late. Nobody is going to double back for it, its passed, done.
Anet has been listening to us pretty well. They consoled us with a good snipit of logic in saying they must first make sure the players and competition are there and catered to. Which is true. Without the competition and professional players you literally have zero chance at an E-sport. They then confirmed the tools to be in the game as soon as the competition was locked down and fine tuned. This gives me hope because it doesn't take long to implement these tools and they are obviously going to want to fine tune the compitition before release.
All in all, its a very good contender on the scene. Its got the following, the money, and the gameplay to be fresh and exciting as an E-sport. All we need now is some casting tools and some fine tuning.
Comments
This thread's not very long at all
It's only one post (at the time of writing this)! I was lied to >.<
Hahaha XD, sorry. I should have said a very long POST. Its not a huge thread. At least not yet. This will kind of tell me how many people in the local communities are interested in learning more about the E-sport scene.
http://www.wix.com/guardiansofthegarter/home
Great post, I read it all.
Thank you
. I hope my writing wasn't too painful. I'm typically better at casting than writing. I hope it was informative for other serious players. Again, if you have any questions I didn't address feel free to ask me here and I will give you full feedback.
http://www.wix.com/guardiansofthegarter/home
lol Esport scene.
"You have some serious mental issues you may need to seek some help for. There are others who post things, but do not post them in the way you do. Out of every person who posts crazy shit in this forum, you have some of the craziest and scariest" -FarReach
Will be about as respected as the WoW e-sport scene. Especially with how the invidivual skill and general game complexity is far below WoW. GL!
WoW had an E-Sport scene for...3 months? GW2 won't be Esport ready for months after release. By that time people will be hyped about some other game they can make into an "E-Sport".
"You have some serious mental issues you may need to seek some help for. There are others who post things, but do not post them in the way you do. Out of every person who posts crazy shit in this forum, you have some of the craziest and scariest" -FarReach
The WoW e-sport scene didn't have a 250k annual pot with major E-sport sponsors. The Individual skill is far, FAR above that of WoW. As someone who has been very involved in E-sports for a long time you can trust me when I say there is a chasm of a difference between the two.
I have a feeling you did not read my post. Its already gaurantee'd its spot as being a competitive platform. Again, 250k plus minor other tournies worth almost as much. That's enough money to get people to play kirby pinball competitively. The infrastructure by Anet in itself is enough to push it beyond WoW. That was actually such a rediculas statement I'm not sure you have any experience at all with E-sports.
Also the complexity of matches in GW2 rivals SC2. For every team movement there is a counter. By the end of the beta we were playing complex matches with opposing teams, countering their strategies on the fly and regrouping to launch our own.
I feel I might just be wasting my words though. I don't think you actually read the post or know the first thing about professional PvP in GW2.
http://www.wix.com/guardiansofthegarter/home
I'm not sure if you read my post either. Please folks, read the post before commenting. There are some key differences here you just flew right past. WoW had no infrastructure for E-sports and failed miserably. The game wasn't really skill based so much as gear based and wasn't fun to watch nor did it have any streaming or casting support to even have an audience. Matches didn't vary and..I could go on about this forever.
GW2 is E-sport ready NOW, which is so funny about your post because I covered that. All it needs is casting tools. It has a huge annuel pot, sponsorship interest, by Esport themselves no less and IGN is becomming a large player as well as local community competitive support. Such as team legacies small tourny pot. You offer 250k a year with this kind of professional interest and it will have the competition. The ONLY thing we need is appropriate casting tools.
The game already has one of the biggest pots in E-sports, second only to SC2, and hasn't even launched yet. Money is a huge factor here. Money and balance, which the game oozes.
Read what I said.
http://www.wix.com/guardiansofthegarter/home
As someone who used to be involved in the E-sports scene years ago (Fighting Games) I have agree with Nightshade that there is far more potential for GW2 to break into it than World of Warcraft. There is far more team dynamics going on in a Conquest match than an Arena match not to mention a higher individual skill cap due to less reliance on RNG and number games and more on action oriented combat. Remember in GW2 you can physically dodge abilities, have to worry a bit more about positioning than WoW (both games required it in the end game, but there is far more of it you can do in GW2 due to map layouts), can block projectiles through positioning, and there are far more individual points to take which require far more coordination and teamwork as well as individual skill.
I also think GW2 matches will be far more fun to spectate due to the action oriented nature of them. It's very visceral and you can tell what is going on, as opposed to World of Warcraft which is much harder to tell what is happening (especially without prior knowledge of the game) without resorting to figuring it out through the UI itself. It also has a few advantages over say Starcraft and League of Legends where it doesn't really contain much "boring" bits that often (though not always happen) as the players are both playing passively in order to build up (which FPS and Fighting game genres don't suffer from).
I'm actually not sure why WoW promoted the Arena as E-sports when Arathi Basin in my opinion supported the notion of team based combat much more so than Arenas did.
I just hope that this game doesn't get any Esports people as they are the worst players and general all around A-holes that talk down to people.
"You have some serious mental issues you may need to seek some help for. There are others who post things, but do not post them in the way you do. Out of every person who posts crazy shit in this forum, you have some of the craziest and scariest" -FarReach
Kinda like what you just did?
I talked down?
nope just saying what I feel about the subject.
Now if you mean that I am an A-Hole then fix up what you said so it makes sense. You can't "did" an a-hole. well...actually you can but not in the context you mean.
"You have some serious mental issues you may need to seek some help for. There are others who post things, but do not post them in the way you do. Out of every person who posts crazy shit in this forum, you have some of the craziest and scariest" -FarReach
The thing about E-sports here is that it would be completely seperate from those who just want to play for fun. Its not like in the SC2 where the casual player can be randomly placed up against someone who is trying to become professional. You end up playing with and against people that are far more serious about the game than you, even in bronze league.
Basically, in GW2. You shouldn't have to worry about it. If you don't want to get involved with the Esports scene you don't have to. We have our own terratory to stomp around in and earn good money. You have yours to have fun in.
http://www.wix.com/guardiansofthegarter/home
My main worry here is when they are going to get those darn tools in. They are still absent as of the most recent build. They've acknowledged their importance but have yet to implement them.
The visual cue style of the game is very E-sport friendly in that way. You can easily tell what is wrong with a player. Crippled players limp, burning players are on fire, etc. AoE zones are shown and all effects are immediately reckognizable. This is important otherwise its impossable for casters, much less spectators, to appropriately follow what's going on.
That is also another aspect that has me excited as a caster and small sponsor myself. This game picks up fast. From the get go you have action. There is no waiting period of awkward silence while both teams build bases and prep up for the comming battle.
Some people do find excitement in how the teams build up but by and large this is a relatively un-exciting part of the game for most spectators and ends up just being a waiting period until the action starts. It is customary in some LoL games and SC2 matchups (with more macro oriented players) to actually not even tune in or go grab a snack during the first few minutes of a match.
WoW was kind of fooling itself and severely underestimated what we, as profesional players, look for in an E-sport.
For one, there was barely any money in it. Blizzard provided no infrastructure for an E-sport environment with WoW. They simply hoped that someone would create it. The matches looked like blobs of confusing effects with no real way to decifer it all. Character conditions were not visible by and large which meant it was often confusing for anyone watching why that guy just randomly died or why that one is moving slower or why that one suddenly takes less damage. Where AoE's are going, and which side they were on. It was not a very friendly game to watch.
Or even to play on a competitive side. Most of the matches were decided in number crunching escapades before the games. Very little was about skill or player team organization but rather min/maxing numbers.
It also suffered heavily from a host balance issues that broke any sense of true competition.
http://www.wix.com/guardiansofthegarter/home
I dont think this game is going to fail as an Esport even if the casting tools are not in at launch, it took years to get any proper casting tools for LoL and that games is doing alright.
If anything it might be good to allow the game to mature a little bit before you start trying to get a competitive scene up and running. Let people get their feet wet and let the meta game develop for say 3 to 6 months then have a big ANET sponsored tournament and release the casting and observer tools then.
All E-sports lost the right to take themselves seriously when they allowed L.O.L to become their poster Child. (purely through popularity) ...Pity, it really was a good Format before that, and sometimes even fun to watch.
I'm hoping something else will come out of GW2. Something that redefines "Competetive" and allows them to drop the needless "E Sports" wrapper.
Agree Nightshade, your post was well put. The thing I will say about it is IF they can release their spectator mode with or very soon after launch then yes, the game has a very good chance to be a true contender for e-sports. This is one of the most important aspect since it allows casters, both sponsored and not, to get a grasp of the mode itself.
A lot of games have the ability to be a very good esport but there are things that hold them back. Spectator friendly is a big one. For example Tribes Ascend, Bloodline Champions, Quake Live, are some really deep and hard to learn games with a very high skill ceiling. They don't bring in the viewship that Starcraft 2, or League of Legends does.
One of the reasons people slammed WoW Arena as an esport was because of how hard it was to spectate. In a game like this you have aboslutely no idea what is going on unless you actually play the game. That isn't the case with a game like Starcraft. I've heard that more people watch Starcraft than play it.
It really all depends on how they treat the game. Balancing for PVE and PVP usually does nothing but hurt the competitive pvp side of things in the end, as seen with WoW Arena and Guild Wars 1.
The only reason Esports exist is popularity.
Who do you think is paying for tournaments? Who is paying the casters?
Esports is an entertainment based industry and whining that its a popularity contest is stupid. Of course it a popularity contest, thats the point. It was always a popularity contest.
THAT'S THE PROBLEM.
When all you care about is audience, you end up with this:
Way to generalize.
I suppose every popular thing ever is crap, after all games that no one likes are so much better.
If you prefer one game over another then fine, but just because something is popular and you don't like it doesn't mean everyone who does is an idiot. Just play the game you want to play, but don't pull out your hipster glasses and pretend that your game is somehow better because less people like it. Its all subjective anyways.
You speak some truth here. I think the E-sports industry has changed since then though. Some of this may be a bit off as I don't particularly remember the specifics of LoL's rise with E-sports but from my understand E-sports at the time was very hit and miss. Casters were searching for more games to add to the stable to gain larger fanbases to, in turn, gain larger revenues. The industry was kind of starving for games to cast. LoL had the luxury of SC2 in that it kind of played off of DOTA's competitive success. I believe casters will willing to wait for it based on those two fronts, to reiterate and summarize:
1. Casters really needed new E-sports to cast
2. LoL was based on its kin DOTA and showed all the promise of the industry to bring in viewers and, in turn, MONEY.
GW2 is facing a different beast now. E-sports is a huge industry that broke a billion in revenue last year, not counting player profits. Big time players such as Idra, Boxer, TitanT, DeFaCto, and rEdeyes make six figures. Recent inqueries claim Idra made over 300 thousand last year combining pot earnings, streaming, coaching, and sales. The inustry is now huge and global. Casters now have TOO MUCH to cast and must alienate games from their stable. Its no longer a matter of what can E-sports casters do for the game but rather what can your game do for us as E-sports casters? That's a huge distinction.
GW2 is also riding in on a carrage with square wheels and no horses. Its predecessor, GW1, became too heavily unbalanced, lacked casting tools, was not really that easy to follow unless you were already involved in the game, and came in with zero infrastructure. There were no tournies setup and no annual pots for players to get excited about. GW2 doesn't exactly have the luxury of convincing people, casters and sponsors, that they should hold onto it based on its track record. GW1 was a fair shake at it but ultimately dissapated due to the aforementioned issues.
That being said Anet is attempting to do something nobody has ever seen. It has been Anets dream to break into the E-sports scene manually rather than reactively. Its inspiring how much they want it. Their first try with GW1 just barely fell short. They got too ambitious. They talked to a lot of sponsors and even got WCG (World Cyber Games) to hold a few cups for them. They didn't set up any annuel pots though and thus did not attract a large professional following. Pro-players want to make some cash. So by the time the WCG cup was in place nobody cared. By then the game had suffered such balance issues because of its dual class system that it had been blacklisted.
It looks like they have not been deterred in the least but instead have geared up, shifted strategy, and are preparing to hit the scene with a huge blow. Almost all global sponsors are now on board to differing degrees. Rumors abound that currently Anet has cups setup with WCG, ESWC, MLG, WEG, and WSV. I won't list out all of the full names but rest assured that this is every major E-sports sponsor in the world. Even some minor advertisement sponsors like IGN and Esport are involved. Team Legacy is a farely known competitive guild and is competing day 1 right along with Reddit and, surprisingly, team liquid is considering shifting gears from SC2 to GW2. I doubt they will give up on their lucrative SC2 careers but likely will start a sub-branch to break into GW2.
Balancing is perfect, game-play is exciting, and on-screen information is plentiful and everywhere. If anyone can force their way into the world of E-sports its Anet. They are putting up the money, connections, and game-play to get it done, and I, personally, can't wait to see them reach their long-standing goal.
http://www.wix.com/guardiansofthegarter/home
If there was an E-sport for making builds, I totally would be on that shiznit.
This is not a game.