I'm a bit unsure as to why people would desire e-sports in a genre of gaming which is wholly unsuited to it.
I also notice the mention of micro and macro decision making. There is little to no real macro strategy in e-sport games whatsoever, small team management and map awareness in small areas is micro management. In my opinion.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Leagues a good game, enjoyable and skill based. I don't really care if they bastardized Dota in its mechanics. That said ... if not for Sc2 and LoL I would give exactly two flips about E-Sports because frankly the rest are boring to watch. As much as I love my taste of Gw2 I don't think its E-sport scene will get to loud , the game just doesn't make for good casting. The game is chaos , they want it to be chaos ... you won't be able to cast it like you would a Sc2 or Moba game.
Just my thoughts ..
Actually thats exactly why GW2 will do well. In SC2 and LoL to understand any of the exciting bits you have to have prior knowledge of the game. Expansions are only exciting in SC2 when you know why its risky and rewarding. LoL is pure chaos to people who don't know about it. GW2 on the other hand is immediately understandable. I'm not sure if you've watched a 5 v 5 yet, which is understandable. Durring our 8 v 8 though it was quite clear to tell what was going on. Its harder to tell what's going on when you have 40+ players but that's only natural. When you have an 8 v 8 or, especially, a 5 v 5 it is extremely easy to tell what's going on. Anet made it that way deliberately. All player effects are visable (crippled players limp, burning players are on fire, etc.). Every buff and debuff can be seen by looking at the character. AoE's have their radius shown on the ground, etc. Nothing takes place under the hood in this game. The audience can see exactly what's going on at all times. If your being damaged by bleeding you will lieterally be bleeding.
That being said I do think it has a good chance and doing very well in the scene. We will see where it goes.
I completely disagree and think you've missed my point. Watching an E-sport can only be as good as the people you have casting it, without the ability to keep the viewers entertained and informed during the course of a stream/tournament .... you won't have an audience. Guild Wars 2 PvP is chaos .... nothing spells this out quicker than an Elementalist playing properly and attunement switching. The casters won't have the ability to describe what is happening for one character let alone 10. It will in essence be a simple replay , where those of us who know whats going on ... know, and those who don't are lost. With Moba's ... you have a set amount of abilities and cooldowns on each character, it can still be rather difficult to completely inform the viewer who's doing what. The games simply to fast and to chaotic, the audience knowing whats going on doesn't matter ... the point of the casters is to tell us whats going on, they won't be able to do that in the cluster that is Gw2 pvp. If you find a casters that can ... he's an auctioneer, or its the slowest Gw2 pvp match ever.
The only thing "eSport" (lol...) achieves for a game is a continuous stream of nerfs and dumbing down of all classes in a continuous attempt to balance them all, which is impossible. In the meantime, that ruins classes and sometimes the whole game for all the other players, those who actually pay for the game.
That's why I hope GW2 will never become some "eSport".
ESport for an MMORPG is for those not good enough to play the eSport designed FPS but who want to feel "leet" with their pro-class tab targeting.
Do I really need to explain how different Moba's are from Fps's or Strategy games are from Fps's?
Yeah .... that was really a very moronic comment, considering the E-Sport scene erupted with Sc2 and then LoL so its a much higher probability they are jumping from those two flavors than a Fps.
The only thing "eSport" (lol...) achieves for a game is a continuous stream of nerfs and dumbing down of all classes in a continuous attempt to balance them all, which is impossible. In the meantime, that ruins classes and sometimes the whole game for all the other players, those who actually pay for the game. That's why I hope GW2 will never become some "eSport".
ESport for an MMORPG is for those not good enough to play the eSport designed FPS but who want to feel "leet" with their pro-class tab targeting.
Do I really need to explain how different Moba's are from Fps's or Strategy games are from Fps's?
Yeah .... that was really a very moronic comment, considering the E-Sport scene erupted with Sc2 and then LoL so its a much higher probability they are jumping from those two flavors than a Fps.
A MOBA is just a FPS but designed for eSport, my apologies for failing your anacronym test, my point stands.
The only thing "eSport" (lol...) achieves for a game is a continuous stream of nerfs and dumbing down of all classes in a continuous attempt to balance them all, which is impossible. In the meantime, that ruins classes and sometimes the whole game for all the other players, those who actually pay for the game.
That's why I hope GW2 will never become some "eSport".
ESport for an MMORPG is for those not good enough to play the eSport designed FPS but who want to feel "leet" with their pro-class tab targeting.
Do I really need to explain how different Moba's are from Fps's or Strategy games are from Fps's?
Yeah .... that was really a very moronic comment, considering the E-Sport scene erupted with Sc2 and then LoL so its a much higher probability they are jumping from those two flavors than a Fps.
A MOBA is just a FPS but designed for eSport, my apologies for failing your anacronym test, my point stands.
A Moba is just a FPS designed for E-sports?
Really? What about a Moba besides the odd skill shot characters is in ANY WAY like a Fps?
Oh nevermind ... I get it now, you're trolling ... time to ignore you.
Wait, wait, wait. You keep saying "some of us in the esport scene", remind me again WHO you are in the esport scene? What team are you part of? Who is your sponser? Have you done any interviews on any websites that we may have heard of?
I'm a bit unsure as to why people would desire e-sports in a genre of gaming which is wholly unsuited to it.
I also notice the mention of micro and macro decision making. There is little to no real macro strategy in e-sport games whatsoever, small team management and map awareness in small areas is micro management. In my opinion.
I think he is referring to it as relative. For example managing your own personal skill set and cooldowns is micro whereas map control, spawn timing, etc etc is all macro.
I'm a bit unsure as to why people would desire e-sports in a genre of gaming which is wholly unsuited to it.
Matter of point of view. It's the same as some American Football fan saying that stadiums are made for American Football.
Anyway, you guys are derailing what was an humble and interesting OP into some kind of political-scientifical debate about what is and what is not E-Sports (or who is the OP). For one time that we have some humble E-Sports discussion, please respect the humble tone, because right now the more you will invoke the bad sides of E-Sports with your questions, the sooner they will show their ugly face.
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I'm a bit unsure as to why people would desire e-sports in a genre of gaming which is wholly unsuited to it.
I also notice the mention of micro and macro decision making. There is little to no real macro strategy in e-sport games whatsoever, small team management and map awareness in small areas is micro management. In my opinion.
I think he is referring to it as relative. For example managing your own personal skill set and cooldowns is micro whereas map control, spawn timing, etc etc is all macro.
Whilst I can understand that line of thinking, I can't agree with it personally. Small team combat on a (generally) small map has pretty much zero macromanagement. Sticking someone on a locale to observe the battle is not macromanagement.
Strategy that falls outside of the current battle but impacts upon it, or on the longer running contest is macromanagement. Cutting supply lines, economic warfare, rotating squad players and having tactics to win a league fit that remit better. The bigger picture, not the here and now battle.
But then, as I say that's just my opinion.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I'm a bit unsure as to why people would desire e-sports in a genre of gaming which is wholly unsuited to it.
Matter of point of view. It's the same as some American Football fan saying that stadiums are made for American Football.
Anyway, you guys are derailing what was an humble and interesting OP into some kind of political-scientifical debate about what is and what is not E-Sports (or who is the OP). For one time that we have some humble E-Sports discussion, please respect the humble tone, because right now the more you will invoke the bad sides of E-Sports with your questions, the sooner they will show their ugly face.
Not really, a stadium is a stadium is a stadium. You can put the pitch to pretty much any use (within reason). It has been designed for sports.
On the otherhand mmorps are based upon character progression, do not have server tech designed for zero lag combat. Do not usually have true twitch/skill based combat. Are not built to focus purely on combat. Are built to bring masses of gamers together, not small teams.
Whilst mmorpgs can do the above, they do not do it anywhere near as well as the games specifically designed for e-sports do. What they offer (or have the potential to offer) is longer term, mass warfare simulation as well as open and thriving worlds.
If people want to "e-sport it up" in an mmorpg all power to them, but it seems odd to me that people would want to do that (to any serious extent) when the medium seems badly suited to it. How about adding 24/7 live in words, player crafting and player housing in the middle of a LoL match?
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Ok, I see there has been some activity sense I was last on. I'll address each main point that I've seen. I'll be hopping between peoples posts so I won't directly quote anyone but you know which points you brought up. If I'm discussing yours, I'm talking to you.
First and foremost someone has questioned who I am and why I said 'us' when refering to those in the E-sports scene. Well. I'm nobody, nobody that you would know for sure. I've competed and I've been part of really competitive teams in multiple different games. I've been involved in the E-sports scene since I was about 6 (in that I've been competitively gaming). That's all there is to it, I've had a few sponsors here and there and some of my teams have been featured but none of those games really struck me as the type of game that I really wanted to reach that level with. I didn't really like MOBAs (or at least I didn't get into them that deeply) and RTS appealed to me for its reactive game-play but even still it did not strike me as 'this type of competition is for me'. Although I wasn't horrible when I played. I consider anyone with any interest in E-sports to be part of the scene. If that offends you, I appologize as it is not supposed to be any statement of elitism but rather an acknowledgement of me, you, and everyone else in this thread as a group of people interested in a difficult field.
The second thing I will address is the claims that GW2 is too frantic. First I would like to direct you to this This is a youtube video of some 1 on 1 play shown to me by one of my team-mates. Originally we were looking at this for preporation but I believe it showcases GW2 combat and E-sport potential quite well. If it's hard for you to follow that then I honestly don't know what to tell you. Yes that's 1 v 1 but its not that hard to follow 5 v 5 matches either. Elementalists have different attunements but this isn't really the type of game that you have to know everyones abilities to understand. They are so visual and clear regarding what they do it doesn't matter if they use an ability you've never seen. As an audience member you can tell what the abilities do.
Health bars are shown over character models, all effects are visual its just really, really easy to follow. I believe some of you are thinking it'll look like 20 v 20 matches or something which tend to be chaotic. 5 v 5 is not chaotic in the least. Interesting, but not chaotic. Very, very easy to see and understand what's going on. GW2 was made from the beginning with that in mind to allow spectators to follow the game.
This field works perfectly with E-sports, I believe. It is fast, visceral, and more exciting than other E-sports. Elite skills provide extremely exciting moments and, all in all, I just think its great. If I missed anything regarding that point please let me know below. I don't think there's anywhere else we can go with that point though. I believe everything is visual and very easy to follow, all we can do is continue watching videos like the one above and the next BWE videos. My team (Guardians of the Garter) will most likely be streaming some stuff ourselves but no promises yet. Still have a lot to get done.
On top of that most of the 5 v 5 matches are going to be split up due to the game-play style. Zerging the other team and keeping all of your team members together isn't a very strong tactic against most teams. More often than not teams end up splitting up into squads, three people will go one way and the other two will go another way or some variation of.
From my experience it is not harder or easier to cast GW2 then any other game. Lots of stuff going on but you don't mention absoluetly everything. You mention the big plays and the impactful moves while casting. In SC2 you don't cast in such a way that your calling out "HE MADE A MARINE", "AND ANOTHER MARINE!". Not every minute part of the match has to be casted and GW2 is no different. People will be using skills everywhere but as a caster it is your job (and mine) to point out the important things in the match.
Trust me when I say you won't be dissapointed.
Now, there was some concern regarding the constant balancing of E-sports. True and untrue at the same time. I disagree that it can't be done right. SC2, LoL, and others have gloriously balanced gameplay and is not compromised by being competitive. Anet will always be striving for balance.
I'm a bit unsure as to why people would desire e-sports in a genre of gaming which is wholly unsuited to it.
Matter of point of view. It's the same as some American Football fan saying that stadiums are made for American Football.
Anyway, you guys are derailing what was an humble and interesting OP into some kind of political-scientifical debate about what is and what is not E-Sports (or who is the OP). For one time that we have some humble E-Sports discussion, please respect the humble tone, because right now the more you will invoke the bad sides of E-Sports with your questions, the sooner they will show their ugly face.
Not really, a stadium is a stadium is a stadium. You can put the pitch to pretty much any use (within reason). It has been designed for sports.
On the otherhand mmorps are based upon character progression, do not have server tech designed for zero lag combat. Do not usually have true twitch/skill based combat. Are not built to focus purely on combat. Are built to bring masses of gamers together, not small teams.
Whilst mmorpgs can do the above, they do not do it anywhere near as well as the games specifically designed for e-sports do. What they offer (or have the potential to offer) is longer term, mass warfare simulation as well as open and thriving worlds.
If people want to "e-sport it up" in an mmorpg all power to them, but it seems odd to me that people would want to do that (to any serious extent) when the medium seems badly suited to it. How about adding 24/7 live in words, player crafting and player housing in the middle of a LoL match?
First I would like to point out that GW2 is unlike other games in the field in that its developers, Anet, have been actively pushing their games to be E-sports. GW1 was an extremely close success in that but Anet kind of bit off more then they could chew back then. Class combo's created an impossible task of balancing all posibilities. So this game was actually specifically designed for E-sports. It has been common knowledge that Anet has been creating GW2 to be an E-sport for quite some time. Obviously that's not ALL it is. It is far, far more. The skill based combat, visual cues, map styles, etc. were all created for ease of use in E-sports though.
I'm not sure where you got the player crafting and player housing in the middle of a LoL match idea. As I stated GW1 got pretty close to being fully considered a highly successful E-sport. It stung itself though with some of its design decisions. There are a lot of people already considering GW2 as serious business, sponsors and teams alike. To me, it is very well suited to being an E-sport. I actually think GW2 is more fun to watch and is more suited for mass appeal in matches than SC2 or LoL. As stated earlier the game has no down time. There is no build up that the teams must go through before the action begins. The matches are fast and exciting.
Ultimately I'm not sure where else we can go with this particular debate either. My team as well as team liquid, reddit, team legacy, and many, many others are already gaining sponsors (or in the process of) and are going to take the scene as far as they can. The prize money is quite nice if nothing else, after all. Also as aforementioned people would play kirby pinball competitively for 250k annually.
So you will know if this game is suited as an E-sport fairly soon. We will be pushing it as far as it can go.
" The second thing I will address is the claims that GW2 is too frantic. First I would like to direct you to this This is a youtube video of some 1 on 1 play shown to me by one of my team-mates. Originally we were looking at this for preporation but I believe it showcases GW2 combat and E-sport potential quite well. If it's hard for you to follow that then I honestly don't know what to tell you. Yes that's 1 v 1 but its not that hard to follow 5 v 5 matches either. Elementalists have different attunements but this isn't really the type of game that you have to know everyones abilities to understand. They are so visual and clear regarding what they do it doesn't matter if they use an ability you've never seen. As an audience member you can tell what the abilities do. "
Just incase it doesn't translate over properly, I'm enjoying the discussion :
First ... that video was horrible, I wouldn't ever watch a stream cast by whomever that was. He seems completely unsure of whats going on and puts emphasis on situations during that very boring 1v1 which required none. He was also having a difficult time following ONE character in that 1v1 .... one character, a guardian which was playing a Hammer / GS ... the hammer being one of the slowest weapons in the game and the Gs being very obvious skill animations. The audience in popular casters streams and tournaments are ALWAYS informed of whats going on, most of them even include explanations of why the player or team did something. Thats what casting is for .... to entertain the audience , not just show a video of a tournament. I'd never watch another cast again if they didn't behave in this manner ... and I won't be watch Gw2 streams if they are unable, as I predict, to properly cast the match.
I'll let you prove me wrong .... find a random SPvP video on youtube, it doesn't have to be a whole match ; just make it atleast one fight of 4v4 at least. Cast it for us here ..... you have ample time to research the skills, and watch the replay over and over to figure out who's using what and when. I won't be critical of your casting ability, I simply want you to prove that it can actually be done in a somewhat professional manner ... as in the audience is entertained and informed.
I still say the combats way to chaotic to cast properly ... it simply won't be enjoyable in the traditional shoutcast sense. It will be enjoyable to watch with little to no commentation or as a replay shoutcast.
" The second thing I will address is the claims that GW2 is too frantic. First I would like to direct you to this This is a youtube video of some 1 on 1 play shown to me by one of my team-mates. Originally we were looking at this for preporation but I believe it showcases GW2 combat and E-sport potential quite well. If it's hard for you to follow that then I honestly don't know what to tell you. Yes that's 1 v 1 but its not that hard to follow 5 v 5 matches either. Elementalists have different attunements but this isn't really the type of game that you have to know everyones abilities to understand. They are so visual and clear regarding what they do it doesn't matter if they use an ability you've never seen. As an audience member you can tell what the abilities do. "
Just incase it doesn't translate over properly, I'm enjoying the discussion :
First ... that video was horrible, I wouldn't ever watch a stream cast by whomever that was. He seems completely unsure of whats going on and puts emphasis on situations during that very boring 1v1 which required none. He was also having a difficult time following ONE character in that 1v1 .... one character, a guardian which was playing a Hammer / GS ... the hammer being one of the slowest weapons in the game and the Gs being very obvious skill animations. The audience in popular casters streams and tournaments are ALWAYS informed of whats going on, most of them even include explanations of why the player or team did something. Thats what casting is for .... to entertain the audience , not just show a video of a tournament. I'd never watch another cast again if they didn't behave in this manner ... and I won't be watch Gw2 streams if they are unable, as I predict, to properly cast the match.
I'll let you prove me wrong .... find a random SPvP video on youtube, it doesn't have to be a whole match ; just make it atleast one fight of 4v4 at least. Cast it for us here ..... you have ample time to research the skills, and watch the replay over and over to figure out who's using what and when. I won't be critical of your casting ability, I simply want you to prove that it can actually be done in a somewhat professional manner ... as in the audience is entertained and informed.
I still say the combats way to chaotic to cast properly ... it simply won't be enjoyable in the traditional shoutcast sense. It will be enjoyable to watch with little to no commentation or as a replay shoutcast.
I'm glad your enjoying it , I am too. I thoroughly agree with the casters inability. I was more trying to point out a point about how matches will typically work. I didn't think it was boring in the least. I don't think the caster was excellent but the match itself was quite exciting. Round 2 came down to a smidgen of health for both characters.
I wasn't really trying to make a point about casting with that video. There will be better casters. It will be difficult to find much in a game not yet launched. I also won't be taking up your challenge myself as I will be competing and have my hands full with my team reasearching strategies, compositions, maps, builds, etc. I will not be casting for GW2. Unlike the other games I've been involved with GW2 strikes me as my type of competition. This is the game-play I've been waiting for to truly jump in. Given that, I won't be casting. Only competing.
Day9 is said to be preparing to cast GW2 matches so I'd simply direct you there once he starts up. He's a great caster in my opinion. I'm sorry I can't prove it to you yet. The professional casters are not yet on the scene as the game is not launched. When it is though I'd encourage you to go ahead and take a look. Most of the people that saw that 1 on 1 seemed to thoroughly enjoy it despite poor casting. Because of that I take it you may be a bit more experienced and, as such, a little harder to please in that respect than most. Nothing wrong with that as I shared your thoughts although I didn't think the match was boring but did think the caster could have been better.
I'll add you though and keep you posted as our team comes out of the gate. Right now we're still trying to organize sponsors and get some infrastructure. Once we get going though I'll share with you any properly casted videos I come across. Keep in mind that most videos will also be 5 v 5. So multiply what was in that 1 v 1 by five and count in move combos and such and you will get about what it would look like. Essentially that strikes me as very exciting. Then again, I thoroughly enjoyed the warrior versus guardian match despite the caster .
The competition that an e-sport brings should never bring along the rivalries and hatred seen in real sports, you'll understand especially if you've been watching the hockey playoffs.
We're all here to have fun and play games, so don't trash on someones day because of a failed hit or flawed strategy.
RPG and esport DO NOT belong anywhere near eachother in a sentence other than to say no RPG can be an esport. Randomness is the anti skill factor found in every RPG, what would an RPG be without crits / procs / gear / skills / talents / specs etc etc etc It wouldnt be an RPG and yet these elements remove large chunks of skill from combat.
People need to give up hoping for an mmorpg esport as its a dumb idea no1 would even watch it, wow arena tried and failed hard just let it go if you want a competative game then play a competative game if you want to play an RPG then play an RPG but stop trying to pretend its competative and balanced its a fun RPG get over it.
Esports, cash shops, instant travel, combat only classes, combat centric crafting, no player made houses or cities...
Is this the future of mmorpgs?
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
RPG and esport DO NOT belong anywhere near eachother in a sentence other than to say no RPG can be an esport. Randomness is the anti skill factor found in every RPG, what would an RPG be without crits / procs / gear / skills / talents / specs etc etc etc It wouldnt be an RPG and yet these elements remove large chunks of skill from combat.
People need to give up hoping for an mmorpg esport as its a dumb idea no1 would even watch it, wow arena tried and failed hard just let it go if you want a competative game then play a competative game if you want to play an RPG then play an RPG but stop trying to pretend its competative and balanced its a fun RPG get over it.
Dota and LoL say hi.
All it takes to make an Esport is a proper following that will draw in the money required to fund casting, players, tournaments and everything else. There is not a genre that somehow is impossible to function as an Esport.
RPG and esport DO NOT belong anywhere near eachother in a sentence other than to say no RPG can be an esport. Randomness is the anti skill factor found in every RPG, what would an RPG be without crits / procs / gear / skills / talents / specs etc etc etc It wouldnt be an RPG and yet these elements remove large chunks of skill from combat.
Before coming to final judgements about authorizing a genre to have its place in e-sports, let's put things into perspective :
What is the real difference between Street Fighter 4 (which is one of the most recognized e-sports titles) and a said RPG ?
- Crits vs Attack Power : a critical strike is a chance to have a higher attack power at a given time. When you even it out, it is just convertible into plain attack power, but split into different timings.
- Procs vs Combo Opportunities : a Proc is an opening to a followup attack that does superior damage/condition. A combo is a chain of unblockable hits that cannot be performed unless you land a certain opening hit.
- Gear : this one doesn't count, because we all know GW2 has a rule in structured pvp where your stuff is evened out.
- Skills vs Special Moves : no need to explain. As much as combo, both require a certain condition to be triggered.
- Talents vs Fighting Styles : each new talent tree configuration is just a new character in a fighting game. Or a variation of it. See Ryu -> Ken.
Now this is debatable I know, as it's not exactly the same. But the differences are really not that deal breaking when it comes to making the genre competitive.
To tell you, I'm actually making a fighting game for 3 years in solo, that is exactly picking those well known MMO features listed above and mixing them with the classic fighting game formula. Game is about to be released (iOS/Android) so I've passed all the proof of concept steps, and the mix actually works very well.
I'm telling you this because I precisely had to force some very strict rules on these RPG customization elements in order to balance every fighting style. It wasn't easy, but in the end it's not that complicated : I started from a fixed template, and declined it into several variations, min-maxing some key values to produce a distinguishable difference in each style (speed, strength, range, crit, etc). Just like your classical RPG, but in a fighting game. All that to say : it's not impossible to bring RPG elements into a very strict & balanced ruleset.
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I find it laughable that people think this (or any MMORPG) will be an E-Sport, note that it could well be a Spectator Sport with a marginal fanbase.
But, an E-Sport? No, there's no market for MMORPG E-Sports.
Keep dreaming though..
Arenanet might fund some tournaments for a few years..
Yeah..you know, the annual 250k pot is just throwaway cash right?
There is a huge market for it actually. How quickly people forget how close GW1 was to mass following. As I stated though, if it can be done you can bet that those of us gearing up to be extremely competitive in the scene will push it as far as it'll go.
Its also not an MMORPG E-sport. The build oppertunities are all the same in structured PvP. Structured PvP is more like a LoL match than an MMORPG match. Again, all I can say is watch us do it.
I find it laughable that people think this (or any MMORPG) will be an E-Sport, note that it could well be a Spectator Sport with a marginal fanbase.
But, an E-Sport? No, there's no market for MMORPG E-Sports.
Keep dreaming though..
Arenanet might fund some tournaments for a few years..
WoW actually had a decent foray into attempting to be an Esport even having major teams gain sponsorship. Ultimately though and I'm sure most people here will agree several factors hindered WoW's ability to become an eSport most of which do not exist in Guild Wars 2. Among them: Gear discrepency (not an issue in GW2), lack of spectator mode, inability to tell what is going on without prior knowledge of the game (poor visual representation), low skill cap (this is more a personal opinion), and extremely poor class balancing due to the game also being balanced around PvE (which is a problem GW2 could possibly face).
Originally posted by Magnum2103 extremely poor class balancing due to the game also being balanced around PvE (which is a problem GW2 could possibly face).
GW2 will have seperate balancing for PvP and PvE, they started doing this in GW1 but it was far to late. If something exists in GW2 that is balanced in PvE but not in PvP they will split the skill or trait or whatever so that it has a PvE version and a PvP version.
Also because it is much easier to get any class at any time the meta game will be able to develop much more quickly, so counters will come much faster than they would in say WoW because everyone will have access to every class, gear, trait and skill all the time.
Comments
I'm a bit unsure as to why people would desire e-sports in a genre of gaming which is wholly unsuited to it.
I also notice the mention of micro and macro decision making. There is little to no real macro strategy in e-sport games whatsoever, small team management and map awareness in small areas is micro management. In my opinion.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I completely disagree and think you've missed my point. Watching an E-sport can only be as good as the people you have casting it, without the ability to keep the viewers entertained and informed during the course of a stream/tournament .... you won't have an audience. Guild Wars 2 PvP is chaos .... nothing spells this out quicker than an Elementalist playing properly and attunement switching. The casters won't have the ability to describe what is happening for one character let alone 10. It will in essence be a simple replay , where those of us who know whats going on ... know, and those who don't are lost. With Moba's ... you have a set amount of abilities and cooldowns on each character, it can still be rather difficult to completely inform the viewer who's doing what. The games simply to fast and to chaotic, the audience knowing whats going on doesn't matter ... the point of the casters is to tell us whats going on, they won't be able to do that in the cluster that is Gw2 pvp. If you find a casters that can ... he's an auctioneer, or its the slowest Gw2 pvp match ever.
Do I really need to explain how different Moba's are from Fps's or Strategy games are from Fps's?
Yeah .... that was really a very moronic comment, considering the E-Sport scene erupted with Sc2 and then LoL so its a much higher probability they are jumping from those two flavors than a Fps.
ESport for an MMORPG is for those not good enough to play the eSport designed FPS but who want to feel "leet" with their pro-class tab targeting.Do I really need to explain how different Moba's are from Fps's or Strategy games are from Fps's?
Yeah .... that was really a very moronic comment, considering the E-Sport scene erupted with Sc2 and then LoL so its a much higher probability they are jumping from those two flavors than a Fps.
A MOBA is just a FPS but designed for eSport, my apologies for failing your anacronym test, my point stands.A Moba is just a FPS designed for E-sports?
Really? What about a Moba besides the odd skill shot characters is in ANY WAY like a Fps?
Oh nevermind ... I get it now, you're trolling ... time to ignore you.
Wait, wait, wait. You keep saying "some of us in the esport scene", remind me again WHO you are in the esport scene? What team are you part of? Who is your sponser? Have you done any interviews on any websites that we may have heard of?
I think he is referring to it as relative. For example managing your own personal skill set and cooldowns is micro whereas map control, spawn timing, etc etc is all macro.
Matter of point of view. It's the same as some American Football fan saying that stadiums are made for American Football.
Anyway, you guys are derailing what was an humble and interesting OP into some kind of political-scientifical debate about what is and what is not E-Sports (or who is the OP). For one time that we have some humble E-Sports discussion, please respect the humble tone, because right now the more you will invoke the bad sides of E-Sports with your questions, the sooner they will show their ugly face.
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Whilst I can understand that line of thinking, I can't agree with it personally. Small team combat on a (generally) small map has pretty much zero macromanagement. Sticking someone on a locale to observe the battle is not macromanagement.
Strategy that falls outside of the current battle but impacts upon it, or on the longer running contest is macromanagement. Cutting supply lines, economic warfare, rotating squad players and having tactics to win a league fit that remit better. The bigger picture, not the here and now battle.
But then, as I say that's just my opinion.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Not really, a stadium is a stadium is a stadium. You can put the pitch to pretty much any use (within reason). It has been designed for sports.
On the otherhand mmorps are based upon character progression, do not have server tech designed for zero lag combat. Do not usually have true twitch/skill based combat. Are not built to focus purely on combat. Are built to bring masses of gamers together, not small teams.
Whilst mmorpgs can do the above, they do not do it anywhere near as well as the games specifically designed for e-sports do. What they offer (or have the potential to offer) is longer term, mass warfare simulation as well as open and thriving worlds.
If people want to "e-sport it up" in an mmorpg all power to them, but it seems odd to me that people would want to do that (to any serious extent) when the medium seems badly suited to it. How about adding 24/7 live in words, player crafting and player housing in the middle of a LoL match?
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Ok, I see there has been some activity sense I was last on. I'll address each main point that I've seen. I'll be hopping between peoples posts so I won't directly quote anyone but you know which points you brought up. If I'm discussing yours, I'm talking to you.
First and foremost someone has questioned who I am and why I said 'us' when refering to those in the E-sports scene. Well. I'm nobody, nobody that you would know for sure. I've competed and I've been part of really competitive teams in multiple different games. I've been involved in the E-sports scene since I was about 6 (in that I've been competitively gaming). That's all there is to it, I've had a few sponsors here and there and some of my teams have been featured but none of those games really struck me as the type of game that I really wanted to reach that level with. I didn't really like MOBAs (or at least I didn't get into them that deeply) and RTS appealed to me for its reactive game-play but even still it did not strike me as 'this type of competition is for me'. Although I wasn't horrible when I played. I consider anyone with any interest in E-sports to be part of the scene. If that offends you, I appologize as it is not supposed to be any statement of elitism but rather an acknowledgement of me, you, and everyone else in this thread as a group of people interested in a difficult field.
The second thing I will address is the claims that GW2 is too frantic. First I would like to direct you to this
This is a youtube video of some 1 on 1 play shown to me by one of my team-mates. Originally we were looking at this for preporation but I believe it showcases GW2 combat and E-sport potential quite well. If it's hard for you to follow that then I honestly don't know what to tell you. Yes that's 1 v 1 but its not that hard to follow 5 v 5 matches either. Elementalists have different attunements but this isn't really the type of game that you have to know everyones abilities to understand. They are so visual and clear regarding what they do it doesn't matter if they use an ability you've never seen. As an audience member you can tell what the abilities do.
Health bars are shown over character models, all effects are visual its just really, really easy to follow. I believe some of you are thinking it'll look like 20 v 20 matches or something which tend to be chaotic. 5 v 5 is not chaotic in the least. Interesting, but not chaotic. Very, very easy to see and understand what's going on. GW2 was made from the beginning with that in mind to allow spectators to follow the game.
This field works perfectly with E-sports, I believe. It is fast, visceral, and more exciting than other E-sports. Elite skills provide extremely exciting moments and, all in all, I just think its great. If I missed anything regarding that point please let me know below. I don't think there's anywhere else we can go with that point though. I believe everything is visual and very easy to follow, all we can do is continue watching videos like the one above and the next BWE videos. My team (Guardians of the Garter) will most likely be streaming some stuff ourselves but no promises yet. Still have a lot to get done.
On top of that most of the 5 v 5 matches are going to be split up due to the game-play style. Zerging the other team and keeping all of your team members together isn't a very strong tactic against most teams. More often than not teams end up splitting up into squads, three people will go one way and the other two will go another way or some variation of.
From my experience it is not harder or easier to cast GW2 then any other game. Lots of stuff going on but you don't mention absoluetly everything. You mention the big plays and the impactful moves while casting. In SC2 you don't cast in such a way that your calling out "HE MADE A MARINE", "AND ANOTHER MARINE!". Not every minute part of the match has to be casted and GW2 is no different. People will be using skills everywhere but as a caster it is your job (and mine) to point out the important things in the match.
Trust me when I say you won't be dissapointed.
Now, there was some concern regarding the constant balancing of E-sports. True and untrue at the same time. I disagree that it can't be done right. SC2, LoL, and others have gloriously balanced gameplay and is not compromised by being competitive. Anet will always be striving for balance.
http://www.wix.com/guardiansofthegarter/home
First I would like to point out that GW2 is unlike other games in the field in that its developers, Anet, have been actively pushing their games to be E-sports. GW1 was an extremely close success in that but Anet kind of bit off more then they could chew back then. Class combo's created an impossible task of balancing all posibilities. So this game was actually specifically designed for E-sports. It has been common knowledge that Anet has been creating GW2 to be an E-sport for quite some time. Obviously that's not ALL it is. It is far, far more. The skill based combat, visual cues, map styles, etc. were all created for ease of use in E-sports though.
I'm not sure where you got the player crafting and player housing in the middle of a LoL match idea. As I stated GW1 got pretty close to being fully considered a highly successful E-sport. It stung itself though with some of its design decisions. There are a lot of people already considering GW2 as serious business, sponsors and teams alike. To me, it is very well suited to being an E-sport. I actually think GW2 is more fun to watch and is more suited for mass appeal in matches than SC2 or LoL. As stated earlier the game has no down time. There is no build up that the teams must go through before the action begins. The matches are fast and exciting.
Ultimately I'm not sure where else we can go with this particular debate either. My team as well as team liquid, reddit, team legacy, and many, many others are already gaining sponsors (or in the process of) and are going to take the scene as far as they can. The prize money is quite nice if nothing else, after all. Also as aforementioned people would play kirby pinball competitively for 250k annually.
So you will know if this game is suited as an E-sport fairly soon. We will be pushing it as far as it can go.
http://www.wix.com/guardiansofthegarter/home
" The second thing I will address is the claims that GW2 is too frantic. First I would like to direct you to this
This is a youtube video of some 1 on 1 play shown to me by one of my team-mates. Originally we were looking at this for preporation but I believe it showcases GW2 combat and E-sport potential quite well. If it's hard for you to follow that then I honestly don't know what to tell you. Yes that's 1 v 1 but its not that hard to follow 5 v 5 matches either. Elementalists have different attunements but this isn't really the type of game that you have to know everyones abilities to understand. They are so visual and clear regarding what they do it doesn't matter if they use an ability you've never seen. As an audience member you can tell what the abilities do. "
Just incase it doesn't translate over properly, I'm enjoying the discussion :
First ... that video was horrible, I wouldn't ever watch a stream cast by whomever that was. He seems completely unsure of whats going on and puts emphasis on situations during that very boring 1v1 which required none. He was also having a difficult time following ONE character in that 1v1 .... one character, a guardian which was playing a Hammer / GS ... the hammer being one of the slowest weapons in the game and the Gs being very obvious skill animations. The audience in popular casters streams and tournaments are ALWAYS informed of whats going on, most of them even include explanations of why the player or team did something. Thats what casting is for .... to entertain the audience , not just show a video of a tournament. I'd never watch another cast again if they didn't behave in this manner ... and I won't be watch Gw2 streams if they are unable, as I predict, to properly cast the match.
I'll let you prove me wrong .... find a random SPvP video on youtube, it doesn't have to be a whole match ; just make it atleast one fight of 4v4 at least. Cast it for us here ..... you have ample time to research the skills, and watch the replay over and over to figure out who's using what and when. I won't be critical of your casting ability, I simply want you to prove that it can actually be done in a somewhat professional manner ... as in the audience is entertained and informed.
I still say the combats way to chaotic to cast properly ... it simply won't be enjoyable in the traditional shoutcast sense. It will be enjoyable to watch with little to no commentation or as a replay shoutcast.
does gw2 have a ladder system that teams you up with evenly skilled players?
I'm glad your enjoying it
, I am too. I thoroughly agree with the casters inability. I was more trying to point out a point about how matches will typically work. I didn't think it was boring in the least. I don't think the caster was excellent but the match itself was quite exciting. Round 2 came down to a smidgen of health for both characters.
I wasn't really trying to make a point about casting with that video. There will be better casters. It will be difficult to find much in a game not yet launched. I also won't be taking up your challenge myself as I will be competing and have my hands full with my team reasearching strategies, compositions, maps, builds, etc. I will not be casting for GW2. Unlike the other games I've been involved with GW2 strikes me as my type of competition. This is the game-play I've been waiting for to truly jump in. Given that, I won't be casting. Only competing.
Day9 is said to be preparing to cast GW2 matches so I'd simply direct you there once he starts up. He's a great caster in my opinion. I'm sorry I can't prove it to you yet. The professional casters are not yet on the scene as the game is not launched. When it is though I'd encourage you to go ahead and take a look. Most of the people that saw that 1 on 1 seemed to thoroughly enjoy it despite poor casting. Because of that I take it you may be a bit more experienced and, as such, a little harder to please in that respect than most. Nothing wrong with that as I shared your thoughts although I didn't think the match was boring but did think the caster could have been better.
I'll add you though and keep you posted as our team comes out of the gate. Right now we're still trying to organize sponsors and get some infrastructure. Once we get going though I'll share with you any properly casted videos I come across. Keep in mind that most videos will also be 5 v 5. So multiply what was in that 1 v 1 by five and count in move combos and such and you will get about what it would look like. Essentially that strikes me as very exciting. Then again, I thoroughly enjoyed the warrior versus guardian match despite the caster
.
http://www.wix.com/guardiansofthegarter/home
Just putting in my 2 cents.
The competition that an e-sport brings should never bring along the rivalries and hatred seen in real sports, you'll understand especially if you've been watching the hockey playoffs.
We're all here to have fun and play games, so don't trash on someones day because of a failed hit or flawed strategy.
RPG and esport DO NOT belong anywhere near eachother in a sentence other than to say no RPG can be an esport. Randomness is the anti skill factor found in every RPG, what would an RPG be without crits / procs / gear / skills / talents / specs etc etc etc It wouldnt be an RPG and yet these elements remove large chunks of skill from combat.
People need to give up hoping for an mmorpg esport as its a dumb idea no1 would even watch it, wow arena tried and failed hard just let it go if you want a competative game then play a competative game if you want to play an RPG then play an RPG but stop trying to pretend its competative and balanced its a fun RPG get over it.
Esports, cash shops, instant travel, combat only classes, combat centric crafting, no player made houses or cities...
Is this the future of mmorpgs?
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
Dota and LoL say hi.
All it takes to make an Esport is a proper following that will draw in the money required to fund casting, players, tournaments and everything else. There is not a genre that somehow is impossible to function as an Esport.
Before coming to final judgements about authorizing a genre to have its place in e-sports, let's put things into perspective :
What is the real difference between Street Fighter 4 (which is one of the most recognized e-sports titles) and a said RPG ?
- Crits vs Attack Power : a critical strike is a chance to have a higher attack power at a given time. When you even it out, it is just convertible into plain attack power, but split into different timings.
- Procs vs Combo Opportunities : a Proc is an opening to a followup attack that does superior damage/condition. A combo is a chain of unblockable hits that cannot be performed unless you land a certain opening hit.
- Gear : this one doesn't count, because we all know GW2 has a rule in structured pvp where your stuff is evened out.
- Skills vs Special Moves : no need to explain. As much as combo, both require a certain condition to be triggered.
- Talents vs Fighting Styles : each new talent tree configuration is just a new character in a fighting game. Or a variation of it. See Ryu -> Ken.
Now this is debatable I know, as it's not exactly the same. But the differences are really not that deal breaking when it comes to making the genre competitive.
To tell you, I'm actually making a fighting game for 3 years in solo, that is exactly picking those well known MMO features listed above and mixing them with the classic fighting game formula. Game is about to be released (iOS/Android) so I've passed all the proof of concept steps, and the mix actually works very well.
I'm telling you this because I precisely had to force some very strict rules on these RPG customization elements in order to balance every fighting style. It wasn't easy, but in the end it's not that complicated : I started from a fixed template, and declined it into several variations, min-maxing some key values to produce a distinguishable difference in each style (speed, strength, range, crit, etc). Just like your classical RPG, but in a fighting game. All that to say : it's not impossible to bring RPG elements into a very strict & balanced ruleset.
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I find it laughable that people think this (or any MMORPG) will be an E-Sport, note that it could well be a Spectator Sport with a marginal fanbase.
But, an E-Sport? No, there's no market for MMORPG E-Sports.
Keep dreaming though..
Arenanet might fund some tournaments for a few years..
Hi
Yeah..you know, the annual 250k pot is just throwaway cash right?
There is a huge market for it actually. How quickly people forget how close GW1 was to mass following. As I stated though, if it can be done you can bet that those of us gearing up to be extremely competitive in the scene will push it as far as it'll go.
Its also not an MMORPG E-sport. The build oppertunities are all the same in structured PvP. Structured PvP is more like a LoL match than an MMORPG match. Again, all I can say is watch us do it.
http://www.wix.com/guardiansofthegarter/home
WoW actually had a decent foray into attempting to be an Esport even having major teams gain sponsorship. Ultimately though and I'm sure most people here will agree several factors hindered WoW's ability to become an eSport most of which do not exist in Guild Wars 2. Among them: Gear discrepency (not an issue in GW2), lack of spectator mode, inability to tell what is going on without prior knowledge of the game (poor visual representation), low skill cap (this is more a personal opinion), and extremely poor class balancing due to the game also being balanced around PvE (which is a problem GW2 could possibly face).
GW2 will have seperate balancing for PvP and PvE, they started doing this in GW1 but it was far to late. If something exists in GW2 that is balanced in PvE but not in PvP they will split the skill or trait or whatever so that it has a PvE version and a PvP version.
Also because it is much easier to get any class at any time the meta game will be able to develop much more quickly, so counters will come much faster than they would in say WoW because everyone will have access to every class, gear, trait and skill all the time.
I know I keep plugging these guys everywhere but if your interested in E-sports also check this out. http://www.talesoftyria.com/.
During this episode they talk about a lot of arena nets responses in the beta forums (which are absolutely mind blowingly amazing).
ArenaNet has touched on their E-sports hopes lately and reassured everyone they know what it takes to make an E-sport.
http://www.wix.com/guardiansofthegarter/home