Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Do you think [mod edit] SWTOR changed MMO gamers?
This discussion has been closed.
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Comments
OP, nothing is going to change. SWTOR didn't catastrophically fail. I think it will do good in terms of numbers, but it's not like what EA/BioWare hoped it would be.
Nothing is going to change in the genre. As I've said many, many times before, the majority of MMORPG devs are still looking at Blizzard's WoW model and wondering why they can't replicate that magic. They copy Blizzard's attempt, some far more than others, especially BioWare with SWTOR. Yet for some reason or another, they all fail in knocking WoW off the top of the mountain.
Face it folks, WoW's been King of the Hill for 7 years straight with no worthy contenders to this date. And the other developers do the same thing as others before, and keep failing, just like others before.
Now, as for the outrage regarding TESO, I'm figuring for the vast majority of MMORPG players, the anger about this upcoming game is confusing. It's a new Elder Scrolls game coming right off the heels of a game they might have heard a bit of recently: Skyrim. The anger, if you really dig into it, is coming from the longtime TES fans. Quite a number of whom come from the days of Daggerfall of 1997 and early 2000's Morrowind, with even more from mid-2000's Oblivion. The anger is that this TES MMORPG is going to be designed in a way that goes completely against what TES gaming has been all about. Freedom. It's been designed specifically not to cater to its longtime existing playerbase.
For me, the only silver lining to this whole stinking debacle is that Bethesda themselves has nothing to do with this entry into their TES franchise. This is all Zenimax's call. This is their mess, and I can only sigh in relief that Bethesda will continue making games the way they've always done them. RPGs that gave the player what's so lacking in RPGs / MMORPGs these days... freedom in gameplay.
Unless, if TESO catastrophically fails so bad that it takes the entire TES franchise with it.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Another one of those 'if i don't like this MMO..it is a failure' topic.
It's truly facinating this thread went any further than that reply.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
It takes some people longer to get bored. That's it mostly. SWTOR didn't help the situation.
To use an analogy....
You could learn all about meter and rhyme in regards to poetry. Then you could take that knowledge and create a poem based on that knowledge, but using a particular meter and rhyme does not mean you will necessarily create something memorable or inspirational. And ignoring the fact that there are all different kinds of poetry and sticking to one form only would get rather boring after awhile.
Creating games is an art, but lately I think more has been made about trying to distill what made WOW great into a series of rules and then create a recipe for success. Greatness is not so formulaic or repetitive.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
SWTOR failed? Oh, it seems I missed it...again
Whenever someones claims that the game has failed and I look, the game is still there, generating revenue and profits.
Always miss the moment, hopefully next time...GW2?...
The only thing I think that tor did was to reinforce how folks felt about the same model of mmo that we been getting the past few years.
We are still getting kill 10 rats, go FedEx this, go escort that. It is still the same old base model that we had for years, with the exception it had a star wars wrapper on the box. It is still the same formula that we always had.
There is nothing new with swtor other than the voice overs with the quests, even then after you done them on alts you just space though them.
I think the folks who were board with their current mmo, are still board and they will move to the next piece of candy in the grass.
Nothing has really changed, folks get board easy.
Swtor did nothing to change my mind about how bad the mmo industry has gotten and how they are stuck in this rut and produce the same game over and over with the same old model.
I was hoping that Elder Scrolls would fix that but looks like they got stuck in the same old model as well.
All I am left to do at this point is scratch my head and wonder why the current crop off mmo's can not figure out why folks are tired of this model and do something out of the box.
I don't think SWTOR's performance has anything to do with the reaction to TESO. The reason TESO has had a negative initial reaction is because of the initial impression of the game being a standard MMO with ES skin/lore on it. People wanted a MMO Skyrim-like experience.
Well, since SWTOR hasn't failed your entire premise is flawed. Granted its reception may not have had the positivity you'd expect from it's pedigree, but in no way can you say the game has failed. (Though I think ultimately it will be seen as a failure)
Ok, let's pretend SWTOR has failed for the sake of argument. Then I don't think SWTOR has changed MMO gamers. If I'm following what you seem to be saying, then I think that the process (player dissatisfaction with MMO's) began with AoC. The first big AAA MMO post-WoW's established success (Is that right? It seems that way to me) that caused massive dissatisfaction at launch and for at least a year afterwards with the stark contrast between what was hyped and what was delivered. This was continued with WAR, STO, Champions Online, etc... By the time SWTOR came around a large percentage of people already expected the reality to be different from the hype long before launch. If SWTOR has a negative effect on gamers it'll be with a dimmed view of the once exhalted reputation of Bioware.
The reaction to ESO is due, imo, entirely to the information about the game that was released.
yes in a straw that broke the camels back sort of way
For me, in terms of money for their developers and publishers, SWTOR isn't a failure.
For me, SWTOR is a failure in being an MMORPG. It's very, very instance driven and it divides the players on a server into smaller and smaller groups. Grouping is extremely, extremely rare in that game. All those Heroic +2 player missions/quests? Almost always abandoned, or a player waits until they're overlevelled by 8-10 levels before coming back to solo it. So, if they do come back to outlevel the Heroics and do them solo, or just outright abandon them, it defeats the purpose of having those group missions to do in comparative levels and to reap rewards pertaining to the levels they were designed for. Then you have the companions. Lug around an NPC to perform functions that another player can do. Tank, Heal, DPS, etc. This is an MMORPG right? I know SWTOR wasn't the first to do companions in an MMORPG, that dishonor goes to GW1. But it is a stain as to what MMORPG gaming is about... the "Multiplayer" part. I'll say this: SWTOR is the loneliest MMORPG you'll ever play. The game is heavily leaning towards single player gaming. I'm not sure if BioWare got the memo of what the "MMO" of "MMORPG" meant.
PvP? Open world PvP is nonexistent. Hell, they removed Ilum for PvP. PvP in SWTOR is very heavily instance driven, far, far more than the PvE side of the house. 3 warzones, 1 Huttball map. That is the only locales to engage PvP in. Not only that, for a number of reasons, the Republic has given up fighting. Part of that I think is that the best PvPers are on the Empire, but a divide grew between the win-loss of the two factions, and not to mention the points / rewards of PvP. And those points / rewards you expend to get better PvP gear. And SWTOR is completely a gear based game. Do the math.
Getting into PvP even as an Imperial was getting hard to do, because so few Republic were trying anymore to even fight. Then BioWare implements a "fix" that steps in the wrong direction. They allowed same-faction PvP. So now, instead of fighting the opposite faction, you're facing people from the same faction as you... which is totally ridiculous and totally undermines the background of the resurgent war between the Republic and Sith Empire. BioWare, instead of looking into what's imbalanced in PvP and why the Republic is the way it is, simply takes the lamest, cop-out approach and tells the Empire, "Go fight each other. We can't figure anything out anymore durrrr."
Then there's space. Not exactly a staple for MMORPGs, but this is freakin' Star Wars. SWG when it came out in 2003 was rightly, and thoroughly panned by everyone for not having space gameplay. SOE made up for that the excellent Jump to Lightspeed expansion. Even after the debacle of the NGE in '05, SWG's space game was unmolested and continued to be a point of pride for the remaining players who adored space.
So, before SWTOR came out, the cat came out of the bag during panel previes and Q&A's that there was no spac game. Then BioWare implemented a really, really half-a$$ed, uninspiring, on-rails shooter. You had no real freedom of movement, you can't pick a direction to fly, what speed to go, what maneuvers to do, nor systems to manage. You cannot choose to break off an objective or come back at it whenever you want. It's absolutely terrible this occured for a Star Wars MMORPG, it should have depth.
Crafting... huh... Send your companions to gather resources. Okay, that's already a stretch right there for MMORPG gaming. BioWare however makes the terrible mistake in allowing multiple characters per server, and not only that, sending mail between them is allowed. On top of that, you recently were enabled to send mail / items between your characters on the server, regardless of faction. This screws up any chance for a player driven economy (but I don't think BioWare cared about that, looking back on it). Because players will have alts, and they'll take crafting professions so that in all, their characters as a whole will be self sufficient, except for some outside stuff that they can't be bothered to get with what they have. But in all practical matters, you don't need anyone else.
Now, I can go on, shall I continue further with why I think SWTOR is a failure in MMORPG gaming? SWTOR is making money for EAWare. But I think the heart of SWTOR as an MMORPG is rotten to the core.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Just because you do not like the game does not make it a failure.
I just pointed out, point for point, exact features of SWTOR that make it a failure in what an MMORPG is.
If it was a SPRPG, I wouldn't even be talking about it, looking at it with the eyes of an MMORPG player. But BioWare touts it as an MMORPG, and it needs to get looked at it with the merits of what made MMORPGs what they are.
And I pointed out extensively its failures as an MMORPG. Don't like it? Tough, but those points exactly cover some core ideals of what makes an MMORPG.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Same argument: What you consider to be an MMORPG does not make it an MMORPG. It just makes it what you consider an MMORPG.
Ppl on this forum hate on everything. So the fail of SWTOR havent changed anything and ppl calling allready doom for ESO arent that smart alone 3 faction and open world pvp is enough to make it different enough from wow and space wow.
While some might have thier own opinions on what makes an MMO or not, I don't think SWTOR has proven to be be a failure yet so the title of the thread cannot effectively be responded too.
Some things noted as "fact" in making SWTOR a failure are not even things I have experienced. For instance, I have never had to over level to do Heroics and have always been able to find folks to group with. I did so last night on Alderaan. No appropriate level guildies on and got into PUGs with in five minutes of trying.
That said < i agree with the lack of open world PVP with Illum and that irks me but that is not what defines an MMO, only a part of it.
SO....the point is, I have only seen the rampant hatred and complaints for TESO (which is where I see MOST of the SWTOR hatred too) here and have not noticed it much elsewhere, though I could just not be looking hard enough. I don't think SWTOR itself as anything to do with the reaction.
I am not in to labeling a game but I actually expected TESO to be a sandbox style game do to the nature of the awesome SRPGs. I think that alone is enough to cause issues, because clearly it is not going to be a sandbox game and more of a themepark (as far as I can tell).
That is the issue. Not the expectations alone but how different folks deal with them when they are not met...
But then, you cannot expect forum users to be matured and bright, can you..?
Swtor isn't a fail to some people, but it is to a lot of people. 4th qt report today. If swtor has not gained 1 sub (net) since 3rd qt. I think that it failed to reach expectaions. Even rift grew for the first 5-6 months.
I do not think SWTOR failed due to being Themepark. It failed due to lack of features people expect out of games, amount of content, pvp, and some bugs/exploits. People now days have such high expectations. People do not just want a WoW like game. They want a game that has the features and amount of content of WoW (as it is now) with something new. People are not willing to wait for a game to build up. Out of the box it better have everything WoW has checked off and something more. If you can not reach that level a game will be mediocre success at best.
GRT advice ! i will try to see The Avengers today !
What Fail?. Dont know why people here on MMORPG.com keep talking about swtor as a fail. How can a MMO with more than 1 mill o sub be a Fail?. So with ur point of view TERA online is also a Fail?, i mean, they dont even have an endgame yet, and is exactly like swtor, a raid, Bgs, and Hardmode Dungeons. The only huge problem with swtor atm is the pvp, but they are wotking on more pvp endgame content so is all about time. BUt looks like the Haters live in their own world, far far away from the real world.
People of the mmorpg genre (atleast those who've been around long enough) wanted something new, so mmo gamers started to change before SWTOR... That's why SWTOR failed...
And just before anyone starts quoting me that swtor didn't fall obliviously... Since it's really impossible to keep around 75% original buyers and the servers are really really really empty at peak hours...
"look into your heart, you know it to be true"...
)
So it's really obvious the game floped at sub numbers, regardless of what €A is trying to manipulate out...
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
-------------------------------
I hope.
Do you often talk about yourself in plural?