Doesn't really matter at this point, you will play GW2, I won't, so I'll leave you to your feelings on GW2 just as I have mine for that (and other games).
Finally, you made some sense.
That's the spirit. If you think the game is a dumpster, or all the other flowery adjectives you have used, leave it behind. Others see a lot of merit where you obviously don't, so, to each his own. We will see, in time, if your complaints have any merit.
Guild Wars 2 is an absolutely incredible game. It's beautifully rendered, with superb animations and art direction that evoke the experience of playing within an extremely detailed fantasy painting. Movement is smooth, combat is exciting and has an amazing ebb and flow to it. There is a learning curve, but the pieces start to fall into place pretty much on pace with the rate at which difficulty of content ramps up.
The world has a very organic look and feel to it and provides an extremely immersive experience. The landscapes look like they could really exist and that people could actually live there, rather than providing an experience common to many MMORPGs where the environment feels like a tableau of theme park exhibits woven together in patchwork.
The way in which the game fosters cooperation among players is truly refreshing. In just one weekend, the vast majority of players had made the shift away from the anti-social habits that most MMORPGs today seem to instill and reinforce. The game makes it easy to cooperate with out formal grouping, but the ability of this system to heal people of their non-social gaming tendencies is bound to increase active grouping and more organized group play over time as well.
The Renown Heart Tasks provide some structure for those who need it and rewards for completionists, while Dynamic Events succeed at providing content that feels organic and supports the impression that the game world is a living, breathing place.
Any trepidation I had over the effect of instant transportation on immersion and game play evaporated with in the first hour of play. Load screen times are extremely brief and the way point system really facilitates easy grouping with friends and makes hopping into the game for a brief play session efficient and productive. It's truly a game that you can play ten minutes at a time, in between real life demands, while quickly regaining your sense of immersion and owning your ability to actually accomplish something during even the briefest of sessions.
There are numerous features and elements of game design that make the game a joy to play. I never felt like I had to fight the game systems or interface and most important of all, the game was just plain fun, over the entire course of my 38 hours of game play. Whether I was exploring, fighting for my life, engaged in my story or just giving other players a hand, the game was just plain fun.
Playing never felt like a job. Nothing felt like a time sink, which is good, because I would rather be having fun than having a game waste my time. I was never focused on leveling and often when I did level up, it just wasn't a big deal. Imagine that, an MMORPG you play to have fun, first and formost, rather than feeling like a rat in a maze that requires constant rewards to maintain your interest and motivate you to act!
There is a lot of depth to the game, but it's also very accessible from the point were you first enter the world. I felt that a large portion of the learning curve could actually be attributed to the process of unlearning bad MMO habits instilled in me by thousands of hours playing previous titles.
There is actually too much that is fun, brilliant and innovative about the game to sit and write it out with out the missive becoming too long for most to read and even if I felt free to write on and on, I'm sure I'd forget almost as much that is special about the game as I remembered.
Every MMORPG fan owes themseves a real shot at this game with as open a mind as they can manage, because it truly is a gem in the genre. It's not perfect, but it doesn't have to be. It's the first title to represent an entirely new paradigm for the genre. Wise, talented and well funded developers can and hopefully will take this new blueprint and build even better titles on top of it. However, don't take that to imply that Guild Wars 2 is lacking even if it is not perfect. It's a game that is an assemblage dozens or hundreds of design elements that do things very well, often with some real innovation and come together into something that is much greater than the sum of it's already impressive individual parts.
Many of us could see how special this game would be just based on the details of it's design. Most who just can't grasp that this game is special by looking at the design on paper are bound to come understand it if they actually play the game while being willing to put aside their pre-conceived notions and give the game a real chance to prove itself.
Not everyone will like the game, no game can be for everyone, but I will feel very bad for those who don't find fun and enjoyment here, since a game with this level of potential doesn't come along very often, espescially in the MMORPG genre.
The game is well designed, immersive and fun, all in a way that makes other contemporary titles pale in comparison. The biggest caveat I might offer for the game is that it may ruin many other titles for you, or at least leave you wondering often why some other game of choice can't do this, that or the other as well as Guild Wars 2 does it! Too often comments like this would be dismissed as empty hyperbole, but in this case it's genuine and that's from the keyboard of a very jaded long term fan of the mmorpg genre who can't help but feel that a game like this has been a long time coming!
Does this thread get to be (no offense to EITHER of you) something besides heartless and Goreson re-enacting "a fish trying to argue with a bear over whether unicycles or bicycles were better via semaphore?"
OK look. GW2 hasn't reinvented a darn thing in the sense that little or nothing of what they have done in this game (save perhaps art direction) is new.
Dynamic quests are still quite often silly themepark "Go smack some rats and collect apples!" Gore's right. Now, for me, the presentation of the quests is such that iot make it entertaining, and there's enough of them if you hunt around that I never HAVE to repeat. They didn't do it for Gore. That's cool. We all have our likes and dislikes. Some of the thigns he's looking for I'd like to see in an MMO; some I wouldn't; some I don't think are ever really going to be viable. That's cool. Accept what you can't change, change what you can't accept. That's life.
RVR...I never played DAoC so I can't profess to be a superexpert in the game. I think Gore plays up the faction rivalry (and downplays the rivalries of WvW a little much, but that's cool. Personally, I can see myself having server pride, and having certain servers become my total nemesis. The lack of player names kinda hurts it, but I want to give the gameplay a try first. I didn't WvW last phase; may do that exclusively next one. If I have fun playing, NOTHING else matters to me. If another player doesn't..then they can offer suggestions to Anet, or move to another game, as is their wont to do.
The PvE combat was the first time in an MMO since probably EQ1 that I felt seriously challenged on a regular basis. Not "This is just stupid hard" but "I have to make split-second decisions between button presses here". That meant a lot to me, and I intend to play this game after release 50% for that. The other 50% is for the way they reward just running about and exploring, because it means my girl and I can just pick a direction and zoom off to adventure. Haven't done that in a game since Skyrim. Haven't done that in an MMO since....EQ1. WHich is MY nostalgia MMO. So, I'm excited about GW2.
All the same, it's not some sort of life-altering experience. It's not 100% a new MMO with nothing anyone's seen before. I'm cool with that. And I'm cool with people that think otherwise. I hope they find a game they like, or that their suggestions reach Anet and they make GW2 into a game we BOTH can love.
This is an awful lot of time and effort for something that is sounds like you didn't enjoy.
Despite its perceived deficiencies, was there anything that you would consider a saving grace?
Was any of it actually fun even though it didn't meet your particular standards?
Do you intend to play upon release?
...an awful lot of time and effort for something that (...) sounds like you didn't enjoy.
well, if you are talking about the time invested in playing the BWE, I guess I was just hoping for something that would be the saving grace of this game.
I have found it in other games where I thought something sucked so bad but then tried a different class/race/server/etc. and found that the game actually is fun.
So yeah, I guess I want to give each game I'm trying the chance it deserves.
If you are talking about the epics I've writen here... I guess if you are relaxing at the pool with your laptop, yeah, maybe just typing away simply happens *shrug*
okay, saving grace...
I did not absolutely dislike the character models?
well, right, I didn't buy GW1 when it was released (was just too afraid that it would be a l33tapal(*)(*)za due to lack of sub fee), but I bought the games I think in 2008.
Around that time I had been playing Sword of the New World.
And while I loved the look of SotNW, after logging into GW1 for the first time I was stunned by the so very realistic (in a western way) look the character creation offered.
Flash forward to BWE.
In Gw2 character creation, I looked at the Charr - please note, I had only looked at the GW2 info pages regarding races and classes and quick-screened the skill videos - and felt like "WTF? Reindeer cats? Thanks, goodbye!"
I then looked at the Norn, tried a male character (usually I'm tempted to first try female characters simply because if I play a game for a while, I'd rather watch a female ass bouncing around in front of me than a man's bum) and based on a random I ended up with a guy that just looked brilliant. I further created another male Norn (that ended up looking like Mr T, again more or less based on random).
Yes, I was watching Pokket's stream on the side so I knew that the female Norn offer some nice enough options.
I then checked the Humans (male first, female second) as well as having another look at the Charr (mostly to easily look around their start zone).
Result: the Norn are probably your best choice if you don't want to play a character that looks like it could be in some Asia MMO.
The Humans offer very little that isn't Asia MMO - I think the female face I settled with was in the last column (before scrolling left), middle?
The Charr still don't do anything for me.
As the other two races weren't in the BWE, well, that would remain to be seen... but the Asura are Asia MMO incarnated, and "Elves" (read Sylvari) being also a standard Asia MMO feature, I don't have high hopes that the (unmodified) look will be anything but what you get in your average Asia MMO.
Which surprised me quite a bit when compared to the GW1 toons!
(And yes, I know you can further modify the faces so there are options... but my first impression is that the game is too Asia)
So, if you like that type of game, well, maybe this is a "saving grace"?
Which leads to the second "saving grace"
I found the city of Lion's Arch impressive (Hoelbrak, Divinity's reach, Black Citadel were okay... ish) especially when taking a dive: the underwater landscape looks fantastic.
So... well, while this may be a saving grace, considering that SotNW had cityscapes that felt just as stunning, I'm now very much tempted to re-visit that game. (I'm sure that heartless would say it's just nostalgia speaking... well, we shall know after a quick download.)
And yeah, I think that's about all I can offer on the good side of GW2.
well, okay, there were moments of fun in the Norn dialog, but compared to say the brilliant oneliners one was constantly fed as a Smuggler in SWTOR, GW2 is just too lacking to be as much fun.
Having said that, was it fun? Was anything fun in the BWE?
The game's flaws aside, yes, some things could probably have been fun... if the general server population hadn't been as one-track-minded as can be in WvWvW.
I want to stress one thing: I see GW2 as a fastfood game: quick in, play a bit, quick out again.
So, if you are a casual gamer, if you don't have lots of time (well, let's say only some 4-5 hrs per week for MMO), if you want to catch lots of options under one umbrella (and are not "spoiled" by certain other games), if you want a new MMO but don't want to pay for a subscription, if you are not happy playing a "limited" (read: traditional, fixed) class, yes, GW2 may not be the worst of options...
But to be honest, as a casual gamer, with an okay internet connection, and depending on what my style is (PvP or PvE) I would probably rather just download some F2P MMO (for PvE) or some F2P online-FPS (for PvP) and spend some time there. Hey, I mean AN has not yet named a release date, so that may still be weeks, months off...
And yeah, I'm sure you have guessed that I will not buy GW2 upon release.
One more note, sort of a semi-saving grace I guess: the Fight for Survival feature.
As such it is actually an interesting concept, to be down with 0 HP but yet not be dead. Typical old school AD&D there where you were actually only dead when you bleed out to -10.
The problem is just how to use it.
the way I've experienced it there are 2 ways you yourself can trigger out of it: you heal your FfS bar full or your enemy dies.
now, I was able to make good use of the FfS with a Necromancer by leeching an enemy's life force and in turn healing myself.
But pretty much all other classes had only FfS abilities that are either heal or damage, not both in combination.
Now, having not played all classes (just Nec, Engineer, Ranger, Thief) other classes may have combo FfS as well, but I doubt it as the FfS are extremely class oriented, and who else would be suited for sucking life from a guy to heal oneself other than the Nec?
But in general trying to two-step your life back up thru Bandage while the enemy still kicks you, and trying to damage the enemy via another FfS just lead to nothing.
So, unless you have a group/other people there that may potentially get that frigging louse that is still attacking you out of your pelt, well, you may as well just not waste the time and die.
This is an awful lot of time and effort for something that is sounds like you didn't enjoy.
Despite its perceived deficiencies, was there anything that you would consider a saving grace?
Was any of it actually fun even though it didn't meet your particular standards?
Do you intend to play upon release?
And yeah, I'm sure you have guessed that I will not buy GW2 upon release.
Any other questions?
Yes, why are you spending so much time and energy in the GW2 forums?
If I'm in the grocery store and I don't like Doritos, I don't stand in front of the bags for hours arguing with them about why they don't meet my specific cravings for a snack food, I just keep on moving.
"Loading screens" are not "instances". Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
Just as an FYI gore, the downed skills are pretty unique and interesting from class to class. Warrior has a rez that gives you ten seconds to kill your killer or die for good; mesmer teleports you, etc.
Dunno what to tell you about models. Agree humans are basically the stock asian MMO pretty types. Norns have lots of varierty. Charr...well if you know the GW1 lore you know the Charr. Love em or hate em. Despite being able to chalk up to being the "catgirl"race, they're actually pretty unique in the MMO world. I think they needed more hair/face options though.
I look forward to seeing the other races. Asura are...well they're gnomes. Not much I can say there. Sylvari seem like Elves at first glance but...if you ever played AD&D 2nd edition and know what a Killoren is..they're more like those. Plant people. I can see the corollary to elves though.
City designs...to each their own. I agree Lion's Arch is AMAZING...there's so much little detail in so many places. But I discovered much the same in other cities (Black Citadel was the only "meh" one to me.
I'll agree in the long run the game is probably aimed towards a quicker, "pick it up and play whenever you have time" crowd. It's unsurprising. The days of hardcore MMOers spending half a day camping some spawn or raiding for 8 hours straight are dying. We're being replaced by a different kind of gamer. Can't blame developers too much for catering to the group with the largest toal income. They wanna pay their bils too. Here's to hoping we all find what we like in some game.
This "realm pride" is another thing I could never understand. In a typical MMO I play on a server with several thousands of other people. Most of them I neither know nor find interesting enough to befriend. Many of them (inevitably!) are annoying kids or trolls who will sooner or later end up on my ignore list. So what kind of pride could I possibly share with people I frankly don't care about? And I don't really choose to play with them, I just roll on a server not knowing what kind of people I'm going to meet there.
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
Goreson man, just stop make huge brutal gigantic reply post. seriously do you think anyone will spend time to read your posts?? can reply like normal people, with few paragraph? all your reply are so freaking huge, i doubt anyone read them.
i dont know even what you are saying because i dont read your posts. so whatever is your point just give up.
Originally posted by wowfan1996 Originally posted by Goreson
realm pride
This "realm pride" is another thing I could never understand. In a typical MMO I play on a server with several thousands of other people. Most of them I neither know nor find interesting enough to befriend. Many of them (inevitably!) are annoying kids or trolls who will sooner or later end up on my ignore list. So what kind of pride could I possibly share with people I frankly don't care about? And I don't really choose to play with them, I just roll on a server not knowing what kind of people I'm going to meet there.
wowfan1996,
you are already starting this off in the wrong way, that's why you don't understand "realm pride".
" In a typical MMO I play on a server with several thousands of other people. "
It's not about the server - as will probably have to be with WvWvW - it's about the faction.
Now, I assume you are playing an MMO where there are 2 factions standing against each other? Good vs Evil? Light vs Dark? Chaos vs Order? Elves vs Orcs?
Do you pick your class(es) based on which one has the better abilities, skills, etc., or do you say e.g. "the Imps are so much cooler than the Reps!"?
If it's the latter, yeah, you are already showing something like "realm pride".
Now, consider what you were saying: "So what kind of pride could I possibly share with people I frankly don't care about? And I don't really choose to play with them, I just roll on a server not knowing what kind of people I'm going to meet there."
Are you a fan of a particular sports team? Of a certain band?
When that team wins, do you go "YES!"? When your fav band plays, do you go "Best - Band - Ever - Man!"?
Or when your "team" on the MMO server (this might be your squad in small scale group-PvP or an "army" of 20, 30, 50 toons of your own faction), when they just trashed a "team" of the opposite faction, do you go "In Your Face!"?
Then you show pride in your faction.
It's just thinking that your side is better than the other, and you are proud of it.
And frankly, when I read lines like "Most of them I neither know nor find interesting enough to befriend. Many of them (inevitably!) are annoying kids or trolls who will sooner or later end up on my ignore list." there really ain't many better examples of realm pride!
Because while sitting on your high horse, looking so far down on all those menial, little peasants, err, sorry, "gamers" on your server, thinking you are so much better than them, you should be careful to not let your head swell up too much with pride in that realm of "wowfan1996".
With your name in itself being just another example of "realm pride".
Goreson man, just stop make huge brutal gigantic reply post. seriously do you think anyone will spend time to read your posts?? can reply like normal people, with few paragraph? all your reply are so freaking huge, i doubt anyone read them.
i dont know even what you are saying because i dont read your posts. so whatever is your point just give up.
It is amusing how people have different pet peeves which stop us from reading posts. In my case, I rarely if ever read posts where the text color is different from the standard white one.
Goreson man, just stop make huge brutal gigantic reply post. seriously do you think anyone will spend time to read your posts?? can reply like normal people, with few paragraph? all your reply are so freaking huge, i doubt anyone read them.
i dont know even what you are saying because i dont read your posts. so whatever is your point just give up.
It is amusing how people have different pet peeves which stop us from reading posts. In my case, I rarely if ever read posts where the text color is different from the standard white one.
Goreson man, just stop make huge brutal gigantic reply post. seriously do you think anyone will spend time to read your posts?? can reply like normal people, with few paragraph? all your reply are so freaking huge, i doubt anyone read them.
i dont know even what you are saying because i dont read your posts. so whatever is your point just give up.
It is amusing how people have different pet peeves which stop us from reading posts. In my case, I rarely if ever read posts where the text color is different from the standard white one.
Fixed it for you... ;P
Thanks and I very much agree with your "Every MMORPG fan owes themseves a real shot at this game with as open a mind as they can manage, because it truly is a gem in the genre. It's not perfect, but it doesn't have to be. It's the first title to represent an entirely new paradigm for the genre."
I am though concerned about your "Wise, talented and well funded developers can and hopefully will take this new blueprint and build even better titles on top of it. "
I thought the whole idea was to not clone and to actually try to do something that is more your own game rather than another game with a twist.
Edit:
Certainly taking inspiration is okay, as long your game feels more like your own rather than an old game with a twist.
Goreson man, just stop make huge brutal gigantic reply post. seriously do you think anyone will spend time to read your posts?? can reply like normal people, with few paragraph? all your reply are so freaking huge, i doubt anyone read them.
i dont know even what you are saying because i dont read your posts. so whatever is your point just give up.
It is amusing how people have different pet peeves which stop us from reading posts. In my case, I rarely if ever read posts where the text color is different from the standard white one.
Fixed it for you... ;P
Thanks and I very much agree with your "Every MMORPG fan owes themseves a real shot at this game with as open a mind as they can manage, because it truly is a gem in the genre. It's not perfect, but it doesn't have to be. It's the first title to represent an entirely new paradigm for the genre."
I am though concerned about your "Wise, talented and well funded developers can and hopefully will take this new blueprint and build even better titles on top of it. "
I thought the whole idea was to not clone and to actually try to do something that is more your own game rather than another game with a twist.
Edit:
Certainly taking inspiration is okay, as long your game feels more like your own rather than an old game with a twist.
The point I was making is that the blueprint could be used as the basis of games that would have the same design goals as GW2 and could possible even improve on that design. The design document could be nearly identical, but the game that would result at the end of 4-5 years of development could bevery different and include innovations of it's own.
I've also in the past talked about the hope that GW2s innovation will inspire other publishers to support innovative MMO projects, rather than just looking to "play it safe" by trying to make another WoW, (GW2?) clone.
However, I think GW2 provides a lot more fertile ground for games that would be heavily inspired by it's game design than WoW did.
Dynamic Events.
Level Scaling.
Waypoint Travel.
The Trade Post (and the ability to buy and sell from anywhere in the world).
Weapon Skills.
Branching Personal Story
No Kill tagging/Stealing.
No loss of XP or rewards when grouping.
Easy non-formal cooperative game play.
No competition for Gathering Nodes.
Tthe ability to instantly send crafting mats to dedicated vault space while adventuring.
Skill purchase via skill points.
Earning Skill Points via Skill Point Challenges.
A trait system that doesn't follow a pre-set skill tree.
Three Faction Realm vs Realm.
Full featured instanced PvP mode with lobby based match making, equalized level/gear, etc...
Ability to belong to more than one guild.
Cross Server Guilds.
Cross Server Adventuring.
Etc...
These are just some of the things I expect to see pop up a number of games that follow Guild Wars 2.
A developer could do all of those things and still produce a very different game. Or, they could look at the reasons that Arenanet designed the game the way they did and address the same issues in a different, innovative manner.
I'm sure there will be lessons to be learned from GW2, including what things they might have done better. Arenanet will take those lessons to heart in future expansions, but there will be many, many lessons of value for other developers.
Producing a GW2 clone would be a waste of potential, but there may be a lot of value in producing a sibling with a fair family resemblance.
BTW, while it's certainly capable of hosting what is a pretty amazing game, I would consider the GW2 game engine to be one thing that could possibly be significantly improved upon. PC technology in general and game engines in particular always force certain compromises in game design. I'm sure that Arenanet would have loved to have been able to set GW2 in one massive, completely seemless game world, and would have enjoyed an even larger polygon budget and an ability to render more lush ground foliage, for example. It may be some decades before MMO designers will be able to build what ever world they can imagine with out hardware and game engine limitations reining in their imaginations.
Originally posted by Goreson With your name in itself being just another example of "realm pride".
My nickname here is actually a joke because I quit WoW before I even registered on these forums.
Anyway, I see what you're talking about. Despite that arrogant tone of my previous post, I'm usually open-minded or at least I try to be. My recent experience (mostly Rift) made me a bit pessimistic though. I managed to find a good guild while I was playing Rift, and once in a while I met really nice people doing random expert dungeons. But overall I found it very hard to communicate constructively outside of my guild.
So yeah, "realm pride" does mean a bit different thing to me. It's less about in-game races, faction symbolics or server name. And more about people behind all those things. Of all MMOs I played WAR came closest to having a community that had reasons to be proud. I really hope to find something similar in GW2.
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
Comments
Finally, you made some sense.
That's the spirit. If you think the game is a dumpster, or all the other flowery adjectives you have used, leave it behind. Others see a lot of merit where you obviously don't, so, to each his own. We will see, in time, if your complaints have any merit.
...reminds me of how people used to say "TES MMO will never happen".
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
Guild Wars 2 is an absolutely incredible game. It's beautifully rendered, with superb animations and art direction that evoke the experience of playing within an extremely detailed fantasy painting. Movement is smooth, combat is exciting and has an amazing ebb and flow to it. There is a learning curve, but the pieces start to fall into place pretty much on pace with the rate at which difficulty of content ramps up.
The world has a very organic look and feel to it and provides an extremely immersive experience. The landscapes look like they could really exist and that people could actually live there, rather than providing an experience common to many MMORPGs where the environment feels like a tableau of theme park exhibits woven together in patchwork.
The way in which the game fosters cooperation among players is truly refreshing. In just one weekend, the vast majority of players had made the shift away from the anti-social habits that most MMORPGs today seem to instill and reinforce. The game makes it easy to cooperate with out formal grouping, but the ability of this system to heal people of their non-social gaming tendencies is bound to increase active grouping and more organized group play over time as well.
The Renown Heart Tasks provide some structure for those who need it and rewards for completionists, while Dynamic Events succeed at providing content that feels organic and supports the impression that the game world is a living, breathing place.
Any trepidation I had over the effect of instant transportation on immersion and game play evaporated with in the first hour of play. Load screen times are extremely brief and the way point system really facilitates easy grouping with friends and makes hopping into the game for a brief play session efficient and productive. It's truly a game that you can play ten minutes at a time, in between real life demands, while quickly regaining your sense of immersion and owning your ability to actually accomplish something during even the briefest of sessions.
There are numerous features and elements of game design that make the game a joy to play. I never felt like I had to fight the game systems or interface and most important of all, the game was just plain fun, over the entire course of my 38 hours of game play. Whether I was exploring, fighting for my life, engaged in my story or just giving other players a hand, the game was just plain fun.
Playing never felt like a job. Nothing felt like a time sink, which is good, because I would rather be having fun than having a game waste my time. I was never focused on leveling and often when I did level up, it just wasn't a big deal. Imagine that, an MMORPG you play to have fun, first and formost, rather than feeling like a rat in a maze that requires constant rewards to maintain your interest and motivate you to act!
There is a lot of depth to the game, but it's also very accessible from the point were you first enter the world. I felt that a large portion of the learning curve could actually be attributed to the process of unlearning bad MMO habits instilled in me by thousands of hours playing previous titles.
There is actually too much that is fun, brilliant and innovative about the game to sit and write it out with out the missive becoming too long for most to read and even if I felt free to write on and on, I'm sure I'd forget almost as much that is special about the game as I remembered.
Every MMORPG fan owes themseves a real shot at this game with as open a mind as they can manage, because it truly is a gem in the genre. It's not perfect, but it doesn't have to be. It's the first title to represent an entirely new paradigm for the genre. Wise, talented and well funded developers can and hopefully will take this new blueprint and build even better titles on top of it. However, don't take that to imply that Guild Wars 2 is lacking even if it is not perfect. It's a game that is an assemblage dozens or hundreds of design elements that do things very well, often with some real innovation and come together into something that is much greater than the sum of it's already impressive individual parts.
Many of us could see how special this game would be just based on the details of it's design. Most who just can't grasp that this game is special by looking at the design on paper are bound to come understand it if they actually play the game while being willing to put aside their pre-conceived notions and give the game a real chance to prove itself.
Not everyone will like the game, no game can be for everyone, but I will feel very bad for those who don't find fun and enjoyment here, since a game with this level of potential doesn't come along very often, espescially in the MMORPG genre.
The game is well designed, immersive and fun, all in a way that makes other contemporary titles pale in comparison. The biggest caveat I might offer for the game is that it may ruin many other titles for you, or at least leave you wondering often why some other game of choice can't do this, that or the other as well as Guild Wars 2 does it! Too often comments like this would be dismissed as empty hyperbole, but in this case it's genuine and that's from the keyboard of a very jaded long term fan of the mmorpg genre who can't help but feel that a game like this has been a long time coming!
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
Does this thread get to be (no offense to EITHER of you) something besides heartless and Goreson re-enacting "a fish trying to argue with a bear over whether unicycles or bicycles were better via semaphore?"
OK look. GW2 hasn't reinvented a darn thing in the sense that little or nothing of what they have done in this game (save perhaps art direction) is new.
Dynamic quests are still quite often silly themepark "Go smack some rats and collect apples!" Gore's right. Now, for me, the presentation of the quests is such that iot make it entertaining, and there's enough of them if you hunt around that I never HAVE to repeat. They didn't do it for Gore. That's cool. We all have our likes and dislikes. Some of the thigns he's looking for I'd like to see in an MMO; some I wouldn't; some I don't think are ever really going to be viable. That's cool. Accept what you can't change, change what you can't accept. That's life.
RVR...I never played DAoC so I can't profess to be a superexpert in the game. I think Gore plays up the faction rivalry (and downplays the rivalries of WvW a little much, but that's cool. Personally, I can see myself having server pride, and having certain servers become my total nemesis. The lack of player names kinda hurts it, but I want to give the gameplay a try first. I didn't WvW last phase; may do that exclusively next one. If I have fun playing, NOTHING else matters to me. If another player doesn't..then they can offer suggestions to Anet, or move to another game, as is their wont to do.
The PvE combat was the first time in an MMO since probably EQ1 that I felt seriously challenged on a regular basis. Not "This is just stupid hard" but "I have to make split-second decisions between button presses here". That meant a lot to me, and I intend to play this game after release 50% for that. The other 50% is for the way they reward just running about and exploring, because it means my girl and I can just pick a direction and zoom off to adventure. Haven't done that in a game since Skyrim. Haven't done that in an MMO since....EQ1. WHich is MY nostalgia MMO. So, I'm excited about GW2.
All the same, it's not some sort of life-altering experience. It's not 100% a new MMO with nothing anyone's seen before. I'm cool with that. And I'm cool with people that think otherwise. I hope they find a game they like, or that their suggestions reach Anet and they make GW2 into a game we BOTH can love.
...an awful lot of time and effort for something that (...) sounds like you didn't enjoy.
well, if you are talking about the time invested in playing the BWE, I guess I was just hoping for something that would be the saving grace of this game.
I have found it in other games where I thought something sucked so bad but then tried a different class/race/server/etc. and found that the game actually is fun.
So yeah, I guess I want to give each game I'm trying the chance it deserves.
If you are talking about the epics I've writen here... I guess if you are relaxing at the pool with your laptop, yeah, maybe just typing away simply happens *shrug*
okay, saving grace...
I did not absolutely dislike the character models?
well, right, I didn't buy GW1 when it was released (was just too afraid that it would be a l33tapal(*)(*)za due to lack of sub fee), but I bought the games I think in 2008.
Around that time I had been playing Sword of the New World.
And while I loved the look of SotNW, after logging into GW1 for the first time I was stunned by the so very realistic (in a western way) look the character creation offered.
Flash forward to BWE.
In Gw2 character creation, I looked at the Charr - please note, I had only looked at the GW2 info pages regarding races and classes and quick-screened the skill videos - and felt like "WTF? Reindeer cats? Thanks, goodbye!"
I then looked at the Norn, tried a male character (usually I'm tempted to first try female characters simply because if I play a game for a while, I'd rather watch a female ass bouncing around in front of me than a man's bum) and based on a random I ended up with a guy that just looked brilliant. I further created another male Norn (that ended up looking like Mr T, again more or less based on random).
Yes, I was watching Pokket's stream on the side so I knew that the female Norn offer some nice enough options.
I then checked the Humans (male first, female second) as well as having another look at the Charr (mostly to easily look around their start zone).
Result: the Norn are probably your best choice if you don't want to play a character that looks like it could be in some Asia MMO.
The Humans offer very little that isn't Asia MMO - I think the female face I settled with was in the last column (before scrolling left), middle?
The Charr still don't do anything for me.
As the other two races weren't in the BWE, well, that would remain to be seen... but the Asura are Asia MMO incarnated, and "Elves" (read Sylvari) being also a standard Asia MMO feature, I don't have high hopes that the (unmodified) look will be anything but what you get in your average Asia MMO.
Which surprised me quite a bit when compared to the GW1 toons!
(And yes, I know you can further modify the faces so there are options... but my first impression is that the game is too Asia)
So, if you like that type of game, well, maybe this is a "saving grace"?
Which leads to the second "saving grace"
I found the city of Lion's Arch impressive (Hoelbrak, Divinity's reach, Black Citadel were okay... ish) especially when taking a dive: the underwater landscape looks fantastic.
So... well, while this may be a saving grace, considering that SotNW had cityscapes that felt just as stunning, I'm now very much tempted to re-visit that game. (I'm sure that heartless would say it's just nostalgia speaking... well, we shall know after a quick download.)
And yeah, I think that's about all I can offer on the good side of GW2.
well, okay, there were moments of fun in the Norn dialog, but compared to say the brilliant oneliners one was constantly fed as a Smuggler in SWTOR, GW2 is just too lacking to be as much fun.
Having said that, was it fun? Was anything fun in the BWE?
The game's flaws aside, yes, some things could probably have been fun... if the general server population hadn't been as one-track-minded as can be in WvWvW.
I want to stress one thing: I see GW2 as a fastfood game: quick in, play a bit, quick out again.
So, if you are a casual gamer, if you don't have lots of time (well, let's say only some 4-5 hrs per week for MMO), if you want to catch lots of options under one umbrella (and are not "spoiled" by certain other games), if you want a new MMO but don't want to pay for a subscription, if you are not happy playing a "limited" (read: traditional, fixed) class, yes, GW2 may not be the worst of options...
But to be honest, as a casual gamer, with an okay internet connection, and depending on what my style is (PvP or PvE) I would probably rather just download some F2P MMO (for PvE) or some F2P online-FPS (for PvP) and spend some time there. Hey, I mean AN has not yet named a release date, so that may still be weeks, months off...
And yeah, I'm sure you have guessed that I will not buy GW2 upon release.
One more note, sort of a semi-saving grace I guess: the Fight for Survival feature.
As such it is actually an interesting concept, to be down with 0 HP but yet not be dead. Typical old school AD&D there where you were actually only dead when you bleed out to -10.
The problem is just how to use it.
the way I've experienced it there are 2 ways you yourself can trigger out of it: you heal your FfS bar full or your enemy dies.
now, I was able to make good use of the FfS with a Necromancer by leeching an enemy's life force and in turn healing myself.
But pretty much all other classes had only FfS abilities that are either heal or damage, not both in combination.
Now, having not played all classes (just Nec, Engineer, Ranger, Thief) other classes may have combo FfS as well, but I doubt it as the FfS are extremely class oriented, and who else would be suited for sucking life from a guy to heal oneself other than the Nec?
But in general trying to two-step your life back up thru Bandage while the enemy still kicks you, and trying to damage the enemy via another FfS just lead to nothing.
So, unless you have a group/other people there that may potentially get that frigging louse that is still attacking you out of your pelt, well, you may as well just not waste the time and die.
Any other questions?
Yes, why are you spending so much time and energy in the GW2 forums?
If I'm in the grocery store and I don't like Doritos, I don't stand in front of the bags for hours arguing with them about why they don't meet my specific cravings for a snack food, I just keep on moving.
"Loading screens" are not "instances".
Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
Just as an FYI gore, the downed skills are pretty unique and interesting from class to class. Warrior has a rez that gives you ten seconds to kill your killer or die for good; mesmer teleports you, etc.
Dunno what to tell you about models. Agree humans are basically the stock asian MMO pretty types. Norns have lots of varierty. Charr...well if you know the GW1 lore you know the Charr. Love em or hate em. Despite being able to chalk up to being the "catgirl"race, they're actually pretty unique in the MMO world. I think they needed more hair/face options though.
I look forward to seeing the other races. Asura are...well they're gnomes. Not much I can say there. Sylvari seem like Elves at first glance but...if you ever played AD&D 2nd edition and know what a Killoren is..they're more like those. Plant people. I can see the corollary to elves though.
City designs...to each their own. I agree Lion's Arch is AMAZING...there's so much little detail in so many places. But I discovered much the same in other cities (Black Citadel was the only "meh" one to me.
I'll agree in the long run the game is probably aimed towards a quicker, "pick it up and play whenever you have time" crowd. It's unsurprising. The days of hardcore MMOers spending half a day camping some spawn or raiding for 8 hours straight are dying. We're being replaced by a different kind of gamer. Can't blame developers too much for catering to the group with the largest toal income. They wanna pay their bils too. Here's to hoping we all find what we like in some game.
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
Goreson man, just stop make huge brutal gigantic reply post. seriously do you think anyone will spend time to read your posts?? can reply like normal people, with few paragraph? all your reply are so freaking huge, i doubt anyone read them.
i dont know even what you are saying because i dont read your posts. so whatever is your point just give up.
wowfan1996,
you are already starting this off in the wrong way, that's why you don't understand "realm pride".
" In a typical MMO I play on a server with several thousands of other people. "
It's not about the server - as will probably have to be with WvWvW - it's about the faction.
Now, I assume you are playing an MMO where there are 2 factions standing against each other? Good vs Evil? Light vs Dark? Chaos vs Order? Elves vs Orcs?
Do you pick your class(es) based on which one has the better abilities, skills, etc., or do you say e.g. "the Imps are so much cooler than the Reps!"?
If it's the latter, yeah, you are already showing something like "realm pride".
Now, consider what you were saying: "So what kind of pride could I possibly share with people I frankly don't care about? And I don't really choose to play with them, I just roll on a server not knowing what kind of people I'm going to meet there."
Are you a fan of a particular sports team? Of a certain band?
When that team wins, do you go "YES!"? When your fav band plays, do you go "Best - Band - Ever - Man!"?
Or when your "team" on the MMO server (this might be your squad in small scale group-PvP or an "army" of 20, 30, 50 toons of your own faction), when they just trashed a "team" of the opposite faction, do you go "In Your Face!"?
Then you show pride in your faction.
It's just thinking that your side is better than the other, and you are proud of it.
And frankly, when I read lines like "Most of them I neither know nor find interesting enough to befriend. Many of them (inevitably!) are annoying kids or trolls who will sooner or later end up on my ignore list." there really ain't many better examples of realm pride!
Because while sitting on your high horse, looking so far down on all those menial, little peasants, err, sorry, "gamers" on your server, thinking you are so much better than them, you should be careful to not let your head swell up too much with pride in that realm of "wowfan1996".
With your name in itself being just another example of "realm pride".
It is amusing how people have different pet peeves which stop us from reading posts. In my case, I rarely if ever read posts where the text color is different from the standard white one.
Fixed it for you... ;P
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
Thanks and I very much agree with your "Every MMORPG fan owes themseves a real shot at this game with as open a mind as they can manage, because it truly is a gem in the genre. It's not perfect, but it doesn't have to be. It's the first title to represent an entirely new paradigm for the genre."
I am though concerned about your "Wise, talented and well funded developers can and hopefully will take this new blueprint and build even better titles on top of it. "
I thought the whole idea was to not clone and to actually try to do something that is more your own game rather than another game with a twist.
Edit:
Certainly taking inspiration is okay, as long your game feels more like your own rather than an old game with a twist.
The point I was making is that the blueprint could be used as the basis of games that would have the same design goals as GW2 and could possible even improve on that design. The design document could be nearly identical, but the game that would result at the end of 4-5 years of development could bevery different and include innovations of it's own.
I've also in the past talked about the hope that GW2s innovation will inspire other publishers to support innovative MMO projects, rather than just looking to "play it safe" by trying to make another WoW, (GW2?) clone.
However, I think GW2 provides a lot more fertile ground for games that would be heavily inspired by it's game design than WoW did.
Dynamic Events.
Level Scaling.
Waypoint Travel.
The Trade Post (and the ability to buy and sell from anywhere in the world).
Weapon Skills.
Branching Personal Story
No Kill tagging/Stealing.
No loss of XP or rewards when grouping.
Easy non-formal cooperative game play.
No competition for Gathering Nodes.
Tthe ability to instantly send crafting mats to dedicated vault space while adventuring.
Skill purchase via skill points.
Earning Skill Points via Skill Point Challenges.
A trait system that doesn't follow a pre-set skill tree.
Three Faction Realm vs Realm.
Full featured instanced PvP mode with lobby based match making, equalized level/gear, etc...
Ability to belong to more than one guild.
Cross Server Guilds.
Cross Server Adventuring.
Etc...
These are just some of the things I expect to see pop up a number of games that follow Guild Wars 2.
A developer could do all of those things and still produce a very different game. Or, they could look at the reasons that Arenanet designed the game the way they did and address the same issues in a different, innovative manner.
I'm sure there will be lessons to be learned from GW2, including what things they might have done better. Arenanet will take those lessons to heart in future expansions, but there will be many, many lessons of value for other developers.
Producing a GW2 clone would be a waste of potential, but there may be a lot of value in producing a sibling with a fair family resemblance.
BTW, while it's certainly capable of hosting what is a pretty amazing game, I would consider the GW2 game engine to be one thing that could possibly be significantly improved upon. PC technology in general and game engines in particular always force certain compromises in game design. I'm sure that Arenanet would have loved to have been able to set GW2 in one massive, completely seemless game world, and would have enjoyed an even larger polygon budget and an ability to render more lush ground foliage, for example. It may be some decades before MMO designers will be able to build what ever world they can imagine with out hardware and game engine limitations reining in their imaginations.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
Anyway, I see what you're talking about. Despite that arrogant tone of my previous post, I'm usually open-minded or at least I try to be. My recent experience (mostly Rift) made me a bit pessimistic though. I managed to find a good guild while I was playing Rift, and once in a while I met really nice people doing random expert dungeons. But overall I found it very hard to communicate constructively outside of my guild.
So yeah, "realm pride" does mean a bit different thing to me. It's less about in-game races, faction symbolics or server name. And more about people behind all those things. Of all MMOs I played WAR came closest to having a community that had reasons to be proud. I really hope to find something similar in GW2.
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).