More funding than who? You think they had more funding than Bioware with SWTOR, than Blizzard has with D3, than Infinity Ward does with COD? They may have more funding than a lot of other companies, but the funding isn't the issue.
I see a lot of bitter posts in here, and instead of actually acknowledging what the OP is trying to get across and being greatful that there is a company that cares about quality, you would rather tear it down.
First of all, for those who ask sarcastically if this is something new then refer to Blizzard, I think you are incorrect and blinded by fanboyism. As a longtime Blizzard fan, they just don't look or act the same to me anymore. Distopia, in response to your funding statement, Blizzard has more funding than almost any gaming studio around, and have been developing their game for over 5 years, yet they are still cutting features to get their game out. What the hell is that and why is it acceptable? They have more funding, and more leniency than almost all devs, and yet they cut crafting professions, they cut PvP, just so they can get their product out. Most people don't care about PvP, or don't mind missing that feature, yet when a studio that big has been working on a product that long and then they cut features just to get it out the door earlier, I don't see that as quality.
The fact is, the striving for quality isn't the norm in the gaming industry today, a lot of studios just try to make their money off of the game they think will be the most profitable. Activision, keeps shoving horrible products out the window, and people keep buying it in droves. Of course, quality and releasing finished products should be the norm and the standard, but the fact remains that it isn't and so we should be thankful a studio is actually trying to do so. ANet does not talk about a feature unless it is going to be fully implemented into the game, and they only do that if they can back it up with proof. When they talk about something, you can actually find it in the game, and if they don't think something is going to be in before launch they won't blow smoke up your ass making you think that it will be. The fact that other studios fail in this area is the sad state of the videogame industry, but who cares I'm greatful somebody is trying.
Bitter post? You named two companies that may have had more funding (Acti/blizz and EA), when the vast majority don't have any where close to the funding those companies share (including Ncsoft in the haves). Funding is a huge issue for many companies, and a good reason why many games release before their time. I'm talking MMO's here..
Blizzard is beside the point as is EA, many MMO's have released due to funding drying up, they usually have two options, release and bite the proverbial bullet that is the backlash of that, or dissolve the company and game completely.
The time A-net has been given comes down to one factor, the funding to be able to release in such a way, that's it.
On top of that you're confusing studios with publishers, it's publishers that push these games out, not the studios pouring their blood and sweat into them.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
More funding than who? You think they had more funding than Bioware with SWTOR, than Blizzard has with D3, than Infinity Ward does with COD? They may have more funding than a lot of other companies, but the funding isn't the issue.
I see a lot of bitter posts in here, and instead of actually acknowledging what the OP is trying to get across and being greatful that there is a company that cares about quality, you would rather tear it down.
First of all, for those who ask sarcastically if this is something new then refer to Blizzard, I think you are incorrect and blinded by fanboyism. As a longtime Blizzard fan, they just don't look or act the same to me anymore. Distopia, in response to your funding statement, Blizzard has more funding than almost any gaming studio around, and have been developing their game for over 5 years, yet they are still cutting features to get their game out. What the hell is that and why is it acceptable? They have more funding, and more leniency than almost all devs, and yet they cut crafting professions, they cut PvP, just so they can get their product out. Most people don't care about PvP, or don't mind missing that feature, yet when a studio that big has been working on a product that long and then they cut features just to get it out the door earlier, I don't see that as quality.
The fact is, the striving for quality isn't the norm in the gaming industry today, a lot of studios just try to make their money off of the game they think will be the most profitable. Activision, keeps shoving horrible products out the window, and people keep buying it in droves. Of course, quality and releasing finished products should be the norm and the standard, but the fact remains that it isn't and so we should be thankful a studio is actually trying to do so. ANet does not talk about a feature unless it is going to be fully implemented into the game, and they only do that if they can back it up with proof. When they talk about something, you can actually find it in the game, and if they don't think something is going to be in before launch they won't blow smoke up your ass making you think that it will be. The fact that other studios fail in this area is the sad state of the videogame industry, but who cares I'm greatful somebody is trying.
Bitter post? You named two companies that may have had more funding (Acti/blizz and EA), when the vast majority don't have any where close to the funding those companies share (including Ncsoft in the haves). Funding is a huge issue for many companies, and a good reason why many games release before their time. I'm talking MMO's here..
Blizzard is beside the point as is EA, many MMO's have released due to funding drying up, they usually have two options, release and bite the proverbial bullet that is the backlash of that, or dissolve the company and game completely.
The time A-net has been given comes down to one factor, the funding to be able to release in such a way, that's it.
On top of that you're confusing studios with publishers, it's publishers that push these games out, not the studios pouring their blood and sweat into them.
Working with artists, if youre adamant about your product not being done, your publisher won't bring it out. That is, if you have the kind of clout with the publisher. I can bet that NCsoft wanted to do what they did with Aion, push it out before the publisher was ready, and Anet, has enough clout with GW2, to tell NCSoft to back off.
We have seen it recently, designers (single player games) quitting rather than push out a product that is below standard. An artist will go that far if they feel strong about the work.
EA rushes products out for profit. We all support it, so we're all apart of the problem. And we still will be. It reminds me of the latest plotline of supernatural, where the big bad is poioning the food supply with tasty food that makes people lathargic. If you have a neat feature or one new thing, we become lathargic to the BS. Look at the Madden series. They add one enw thing a year, and its been the same game for 5 years. But because they know we like football and it doesnt matter (they are the only game in town). They don't put the resources in for something absolutely different.
Again i am not unhappy with the way Anet did it i knew what i was getting and thats fine i just dont think its something to be greatful for because in the end its the same thing we paid for a game thats not rdy yet the only difference is that this time i cant even play the game whenever i want (i could play a buggy game whenever i want after i bought it)
That's also your own fault. See my previous post. ANet clearly said the beta would only be accessible during specific events. So complaining about not being able to play all the time is... nonsense.
It sounds like someone who bought a cheeseburger and then complains because there's cheese inside... /facepalm.
Dude seriously you got to be kidding me dont you?
I mean seriously you just cant be that dumb.
I do not complain about the fact i cant play i said so even in the part you quoted i knew what i was getting and i am fine with it what abot that made you think i complain about it and did not know what i got?
Seriously you just have to be kidding here or maybe you are just trying to piss me off i dunno.
The only reason i wrote about the difference in beeing able to play was to show where the fault in OPs logic is i payed for both games (the buggy one and the not released one) so Anet can take there time to finiish the game but for me the customer nothing changed i payed for an unfinished product be it the buggy one of the unfinished one but if i spent the money on the buggy one i at least could play it.
I say this to point out that i the customer do not have an advantage after spending my money and therefore do not see why we should praise Anet.(or at least not praise them for that)
so you would rather play SWTOR than GW2? (SWTOR = buggy / GW2 = unfinished)
We're not saying you should praise Anet for taking our money for a game that is not finished yet. We we're saying is that we should thank (never praise) Anet for at least trying to do the right thing and continue working on their game until it is polished and propperly ready for release.
Thats the point right there i could play SWOTOR after paying i cant play GW2 after paying so how can you compare that?
One game lets you pay for it and repairs it bugs why you are playing the other game lets you pay for it and repairs its bugs while well while you are playing another (maybe buggy game) and all we have is them saying it will be polished we dont have the game yet we cant even see if they delivered on the words every other game developer throw at us countless times.
So what do we really have? Promises like we always have no way of knowing if they will deliver on them and we are already out the money for it since we prepurchased. I believe we as gamers have the right to expect a polished game at release anyway (sure seems like no one delivers on that but oh well) saying now we thank Anet for promising what everyone else also promised plus already paying for the game just does not make any sense to me.
In both scenarios did you as the customer pay for an unfinished product its the same diff to me and even worse since i can still play a bugged game (unless the bugs are gamebreaking)
We should be grateful we are getting a finished product and have a company making a game that has probably been ignoring the demands of their publisher to rush this game out.
Oh. I see. So I should be grateful that they are not lying, that I have the privilege to give them money and that the sun is not falling down on me.
Sure it is psychologically helpful to grateful for all but you see I strive for something and it is called being objective as possible and above all read this:
I am not bending over backwards for a profit organization.
We have seen it recently, designers (single player games) quitting rather than push out a product that is below standard. An artist will go that far if they feel strong about the work.
Which designers are you referring to?
Btw. most of Anet's key figures left 2-3 years ago. How you interpret that is up to you xP
Bitter post? You named two companies that may have had more funding (Acti/blizz and EA), when the vast majority don't have any where close to the funding those companies share (including Ncsoft in the haves). Funding is a huge issue for many companies, and a good reason why many games release before their time. I'm talking MMO's here..
Blizzard is beside the point as is EA, many MMO's have released due to funding drying up, they usually have two options, release and bite the proverbial bullet that is the backlash of that, or dissolve the company and game completely.
The time A-net has been given comes down to one factor, the funding to be able to release in such a way, that's it.
On top of that you're confusing studios with publishers, it's publishers that push these games out, not the studios pouring their blood and sweat into them.
Working with artists, if youre adamant about your product not being done, your publisher won't bring it out. That is, if you have the kind of clout with the publisher. I can bet that NCsoft wanted to do what they did with Aion, push it out before the publisher was ready, and Anet, has enough clout with GW2, to tell NCSoft to back off.
We have seen it recently, designers (single player games) quitting rather than push out a product that is below standard. An artist will go that far if they feel strong about the work.
In many cases of publisher/studio relation it's not as simple as that. When contracts are present you have an obligation to finish what you were paid to finish to the best of your ability.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
If I pay money that I have spent time earning on a game I reserve the right to be entitled.
Entitled to what was promised for your pre-purchase. Not more. And that is an unfinished beta version of the product you can only play during specific beta events. And until the early access preceding the release, that is what you are getting, no lies here.
EDIT: and time to block someone rude (not you, Vesavius )...
That is an interesting point that needs to be looked at further.
1. What was the full promise with the pre-purchase? Is it not every detail the company has given about the game or what is coming to the game up to that point and time?
2. Does a consumer give up all rights to give input on product development just because they pre-purchased the game?
3. Doesnt paying money into a products production give you more rights to input in the products development than someone that has no money invested?
4. Does a fan/supporter of a thing have more of a right to speak out about it...than someone who isnt?
I know one thing, if I say...buy season tickets to my favorite team and they suddenly trade away my favorite player or...they chose not to clean the stadium...im going to bitch like a 11 year old girl on the rag for the first time because my investment was altered in a way it shouldnt have been. And I will claim rights to complain more than someone that never attends a game, but watches it on TV...and that really isnt a good example because with MMORPGs the fanbase CAN move production at least a little...if only they would stick together.
Just some food for thought.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Bitter post? You named two companies that may have had more funding (Acti/blizz and EA), when the vast majority don't have any where close to the funding those companies share (including Ncsoft in the haves). Funding is a huge issue for many companies, and a good reason why many games release before their time. I'm talking MMO's here..
Blizzard is beside the point as is EA, many MMO's have released due to funding drying up, they usually have two options, release and bite the proverbial bullet that is the backlash of that, or dissolve the company and game completely.
The time A-net has been given comes down to one factor, the funding to be able to release in such a way, that's it.
On top of that you're confusing studios with publishers, it's publishers that push these games out, not the studios pouring their blood and sweat into them.
I wasn't targeting you with the bitter posts, I was referring to others who posted before. And I list those companies because they are the ones putting out AAA titles, the OP's complaint isn't with lower budget companies, it is with the one's who have the budgets but refuse to put quality first. Lol, you mean to tell me the companies like Infinity Ward is pouring blood and sweat into their games? You think Bioware poured blood and sweat into DA2, into SWTOR? So your post about budgets drying up is irrelevant is all I'm saying, because majority of the companies who tried to release AAA MMO's had nice funding, and that's the complaint here. They didn't do all they could to put out a quality product when they have the funding to do so.
I just finished my second odyssey of an MMO in two weeks in which I have played a game that is to come out within the next few months.
It made me realize, I think, as a gamer, whether you like to new direction or not, you have to appreciate Anet's determination not to rush out an unfinished product. I am 100% sure, now, that this is the new business model. That most companies realize that they don't havve to have a game finished to release it.
I swear, there is a report in a lot of developer/publisher/s offices that has a chart and spreadsheet comparing cost to finish to cost of subscriptions and if they hit a certain level of finish they can save money on cost and still draw enough of an income to profit.
Realizing this, I have to admire a company for not taking the money bank and absolutely delivering everything they promised, and not compromising or taking the easier route. I am sure that any 2 or 3 of the new features would have garnered nearly the same attention for anet.
We should be grateful we are getting a finished product and have a company making a game that has probably been ignoring the demands of their publisher to rush this game out.
Right... remember DAoC?
How smooth a start they had (aside from a coding glitch that blocked access)?
Before release both in the US and later Europe, the game was tested for months continuously by gamers, as well as (even to these days) patches still being tested for ages on their PTS.
So, what you are painting, that game developers actually release finished products, is far from a new concept.
It is probably what every game designer would prefer to be able to do because nothing reflects more badly on a game (and especially a MMO) than being a "bad" product at launch.
So, why do it?
Because it's money!
Each day a project is tinkered with and not out there playing hooker, it's not making any money.
So the smart sales guys in their smart suits and smart haircuts come in and tell the "nerds" that they need to give them a time for release, and if Sales doesn't like it, they'll cut the time short based on their prognosis when the best time for a launch would be.
DAoC didn't have that problem because Mythic back then was completely in control of design and publishing.
How many games these days have that luxury?
Remember that GW2 is not just ArenaNet, it's also NCSoft. And you wanna bet that if NCSoft tells AN to jump and release a halfbaked game, AN will have to do so?
You also have to remember that GW2 is not your average new MMO:
They can draw upon content that GW1 has grown over 3 episodes and 1 expansion (not to mention normal game updates).
It's a bit like say Funcom sending out a bunch of people to record everything for a certain part of London and then just taking that material and simply putting it into theTSW: houses exact modelled based on the originals, texture maps actually being high rez photos of the real thing, etc.
Little designing left for you to do when somebody else (GW1 team, reality, etc.) has already done it for you.
Before you start calling AN the great hero of the modern MMO revolution, frankly I'd rather wait and see what actually does peel out of the egg, not how the egg's content looks when you hold it up to the light. ;-)
Before you start calling AN the great hero of the modern MMO revolution, frankly I'd rather wait and see what actually does peel out of the egg, not how the egg's content looks when you hold it up to the light. ;-)
I just finished my second odyssey of an MMO in two weeks in which I have played a game that is to come out within the next few months.
It made me realize, I think, as a gamer, whether you like to new direction or not, you have to appreciate Anet's determination not to rush out an unfinished product. I am 100% sure, now, that this is the new business model. That most companies realize that they don't havve to have a game finished to release it.
I swear, there is a report in a lot of developer/publisher/s offices that has a chart and spreadsheet comparing cost to finish to cost of subscriptions and if they hit a certain level of finish they can save money on cost and still draw enough of an income to profit.
Realizing this, I have to admire a company for not taking the money bank and absolutely delivering everything they promised, and not compromising or taking the easier route. I am sure that any 2 or 3 of the new features would have garnered nearly the same attention for anet.
We should be grateful we are getting a finished product and have a company making a game that has probably been ignoring the demands of their publisher to rush this game out.
Right... remember DAoC?
I do no abilities details on any ability what so ever.
How smooth a start they had (aside from a coding glitch that blocked access)?
Before release both in the US and later Europe, the game was tested for months continuously by gamers, as well as (even to these days) patches still being tested for ages on their PTS.
DAOC was the least tested mmo ever launched, having just a handful of testers pre-launch.
So, what you are painting, that game developers actually release finished products, is far from a new concept.
It is probably what every game designer would prefer to be able to do because nothing reflects more badly on a game (and especially a MMO) than being a "bad" product at launch.
So, why do it?
Because it's money!
Each day a project is tinkered with and not out there playing hooker, it's not making any money.
So the smart sales guys in their smart suits and smart haircuts come in and tell the "nerds" that they need to give them a time for release, and if Sales doesn't like it, they'll cut the time short based on their prognosis when the best time for a launch would be.
DAoC didn't have that problem because Mythic back then was completely in control of design and publishing.
And our expectations were so low. But i'll give you something that daoc just had a great coder/s, someone was a god at coding for the network that support daoc, even more so the game worked well, next to wow i don't know a game that feels as good to move a character in as this game... tho the increased gravity did diminish this ever so little.
How many games these days have that luxury?
None, daoc released early in worse shape development-wise then almost all mmos, but the core systems were just made so solid that it was playable.
Remember that GW2 is not just ArenaNet, it's also NCSoft. And you wanna bet that if NCSoft tells AN to jump and release a halfbaked game, AN will have to do so?
You also have to remember that GW2 is not your average new MMO:
They can draw upon content that GW1 has grown over 3 episodes and 1 expansion (not to mention normal game updates).
It's a bit like say Funcom sending out a bunch of people to record everything for a certain part of London and then just taking that material and simply putting it into theTSW: houses exact modelled based on the originals, texture maps actually being high rez photos of the real thing, etc.
Little designing left for you to do when somebody else (GW1 team, reality, etc.) has already done it for you.
Before you start calling AN the great hero of the modern MMO revolution, frankly I'd rather wait and see what actually does peel out of the egg, not how the egg's content looks when you hold it up to the light. ;-)
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
DAOC was the least tested mmo ever launched, having just a handful of testers pre-launch.
Umm...no.
Anarchy Online had round about 10k people for its stress test...which it couldnt even handle...hahaha worst launch ever.
Thats around how many were doing DAoCs Beta 1...1...there was a beta 2 and their stress testing for that was OPEN. The last full month had around 70k stress testing on weekends.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
If I pay money that I have spent time earning on a game I reserve the right to be entitled.
Entitled to what was promised for your pre-purchase. Not more. And that is an unfinished beta version of the product you can only play during specific beta events. And until the early access preceding the release, that is what you are getting, no lies here.
EDIT: and time to block someone rude (not you, Vesavius )...
That is an interesting point that needs to be looked at further.
1. What was the full promise with the pre-purchase? Is it not every detail the company has given about the game or what is coming to the game up to that point and time?
2. Does a consumer give up all rights to give input on product development just because they pre-purchased the game?
3. Doesnt paying money into a products production give you more rights to input in the products development than someone that has no money invested?
4. Does a fan/supporter of a thing have more of a right to speak out about it...than someone who isnt?
I know one thing, if I say...buy season tickets to my favorite team and they suddenly trade away my favorite player or...they chose not to clean the stadium...im going to bitch like a 11 year old girl on the rag for the first time because my investment was altered in a way it shouldnt have been. And I will claim rights to complain more than someone that never attends a game, but watches it on TV...and that really isnt a good example because with MMORPGs the fanbase CAN move production at least a little...if only they would stick together.
Just some food for thought.
1) The full promise was simple:
* there is NO release date yet.
* by pre-purchasing, you get beta access during randomly spread out beta events to an unfinished product.
* you get 3 days early access once the game goes retail, along with different trinkets depending on what version your pre-purchased.
2) and 3) are obvious, I wonder why you even post them... by pre-purchasing you got the right to give input about the game during each beta event on official forums, and it has already been proven that ANet listens to testers, they even changed stuff in the cash shop after negative feedback about it.
4) A fan nope, but a supporter yes (by supporter, I mean someone who paid for it or supported it in another way). And he gets it, see previous paragraph.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
That is an interesting point that needs to be looked at further.
1. What was the full promise with the pre-purchase? Is it not every detail the company has given about the game or what is coming to the game up to that point and time?
2. Does a consumer give up all rights to give input on product development just because they pre-purchased the game?
3. Doesnt paying money into a products production give you more rights to input in the products development than someone that has no money invested?
4. Does a fan/supporter of a thing have more of a right to speak out about it...than someone who isnt?
I know one thing, if I say...buy season tickets to my favorite team and they suddenly trade away my favorite player or...they chose not to clean the stadium...im going to bitch like a 11 year old girl on the rag for the first time because my investment was altered in a way it shouldnt have been. And I will claim rights to complain more than someone that never attends a game, but watches it on TV...and that really isnt a good example because with MMORPGs the fanbase CAN move production at least a little...if only they would stick together.
Just some food for thought.
No, in general MMOs all come with their little "Gameplay May Change During Online Play" backdoor, so what may have been "suggested" yesterday may not be in day after tomorrow. While maybe having been in today. And sort of in tomorrow.
The "full" promise of the pre-purchase was really just that you'd get a game that (at time of pre-purchase) is called Guild Wars 2, and that you have access to all BWEs, that you get a 3 day headstart, and that you have that Hero's Band boon.
Nothing more, really.
If AN suddenly figured that GW2 should be all about dancing sealions and scruffy pandas, well, they could do that.
Of course, many people would feel cheated as AN would have "violated" the GW IP... and yet, if you look at IPs, things that have been based on them, and fans and their feelings about the result, yeah, you know you should never trust in just the IP. ;-)
Which brings us straight to fans/consumers and their "right" of input.
See, a couple of years back I had the pleasure of investing a fair amout of money into a musical show. Which made me an Exceutive Producer.
Which really just meant nothing other than being a cashcow and if all of us business partners managed to make up a majority front, we could effect certain "things".
Which may have meant that if we get 51% of all shares in line we could of course of gotten the suggestion in that have Stacy wear a red bra as part of her go-go outfit, a purple bra would be nicer.
Now, imagine calling a shareholder meeting for every single piece of "poop" that may come up, every tiny decision that needs to be made.
Rather you put your trust into one person to make all of these menial decisions for you and really just bother you with the important stuff. Though of course you may still keep an eye on things.
As a pre-purchase customer you are not much different than that: you have put your trust into AN/NCSoft to deliver GW2 to you.
And whether you like the fact that there are dancing sealions in the game will only be relevant if you were to get a huge enough "mob" together to tell AN "no, we don't want dancing sealions!"
Though, what actual force you could bring to that stand, I honestly don't know as I didn't pre-purchase GW2 and therefore don't know the exact terms and conditions that come with it.
That may well be something somebody who pre-purchased GW2 thru AN/NCS should probably post for evaluation i.e. what your options are to void that purchase.
As a fan, hey, things are pretty much the same, alas without really having to worry about getting your money back: shout as much as you like and AN may listen if enough people are shouting... but getting your money back? Well, that would be upon release of the game... and unless you can prove that the game is actually "faulty" you can only hope for the seller's "show of mercy" ;-)
I don't get why we're supposed to be grateful to any company for providing a product. Either you like the product and buy it, or you don't. I can see respecting a developer for their methods, but being grateful seems like you're applying some form of idolatry to the company.
Also, the OP is making a point about how great it is that they're not releasing a game before it's finished. That is great... But they're selling the game at full price right now. So they're not really doing anything different than any other company, except not letting you play their game even though you've paid in full for it. I don't see how that's to be respected any more than what other companies do.
True, it's the consumers choice to buy it before it's ready or not, but that's not the point, nor the argument, that's being made.
* by pre-purchasing, you get beta access during randomly spread out beta events to an unfinished product.
* you get 3 days early access once the game goes retail, along with different trinkets depending on what version your pre-purchased.
2) and 3) are obvious, I wonder why you even post them... by pre-purchasing you got the right to give input about the game during each beta event on official forums, and it has already been proven that ANet listens to testers, they even changed stuff in the cash shop after negative feedback about it.
4) A fan nope, but a supporter yes (by supporter, I mean someone who paid for it or supported it in another way). And he gets it, see previous paragraph.
1. But that is not the full promise
Every article written about the game with quotes from a developer, all forum posts by developers, all blog posts, information on the games site, blogcasts/podcasts...anything, with any game detail from the company, is also part of the promise.
2 and 3 were given for a reason to lead into 4 because they are tied.
You do NOT need to have had to pay into anything to be a potential customer and in anything that is being developed, especially one were they WANT feedback...makes you worthy and ENTITLED to give that feedback.
That seems to be the thing being overlooked...MMORPG makers ASK for feedback and thus, we, the players actually ARE ENTITLED to give it. Sorry for the trap...there is no limit to the kind of feedback, though I do like to see it have at least a little bit of constructiveness to it.
But again, we actually are entitled to give it because it is being asked for.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Could you explain how the title and the post relate?
They do relate. What he is trying to say, is that we "as gamers" should be greatful that we will be getting a finished product and not a half done product which will be abandoned and never fixed. That ANET is trying their best to polish the game before releasing it.
im sure they can polish it all they want.but with looking at swtor,the wow community will just come in.and try to somehow get everything in wow into gw2 and when that doesnt happen.they'll stomp there feet like 2 year olds and leave
my point is,you can polish the game all you want.but that doesnt mean anything when people will just up and leave regardless of how polished the game is.me personally though,i didnt quit wow just to play a game with the same immature playerbase i hated in wow,so i guess ill be out and playing another mmo if that happens
Again i am not unhappy with the way Anet did it i knew what i was getting and thats fine i just dont think its something to be greatful for because in the end its the same thing we paid for a game thats not rdy yet the only difference is that this time i cant even play the game whenever i want (i could play a buggy game whenever i want after i bought it)
That's also your own fault. See my previous post. ANet clearly said the beta would only be accessible during specific events. So complaining about not being able to play all the time is... nonsense.
It sounds like someone who bought a cheeseburger and then complains because there's cheese inside... /facepalm.
Dude seriously you got to be kidding me dont you?
I mean seriously you just cant be that dumb.
I do not complain about the fact i cant play i said so even in the part you quoted i knew what i was getting and i am fine with it what abot that made you think i complain about it and did not know what i got?
Seriously you just have to be kidding here or maybe you are just trying to piss me off i dunno.
The only reason i wrote about the difference in beeing able to play was to show where the fault in OPs logic is i payed for both games (the buggy one and the not released one) so Anet can take there time to finiish the game but for me the customer nothing changed i payed for an unfinished product be it the buggy one of the unfinished one but if i spent the money on the buggy one i at least could play it.
I say this to point out that i the customer do not have an advantage after spending my money and therefore do not see why we should praise Anet.(or at least not praise them for that)
so you would rather play SWTOR than GW2? (SWTOR = buggy / GW2 = unfinished)
We're not saying you should praise Anet for taking our money for a game that is not finished yet. We we're saying is that we should thank (never praise) Anet for at least trying to do the right thing and continue working on their game until it is polished and propperly ready for release.
Thats the point right there i could play SWOTOR after paying i cant play GW2 after paying so how can you compare that?
One game lets you pay for it and repairs it bugs why you are playing the other game lets you pay for it and repairs its bugs while well while you are playing another (maybe buggy game) and all we have is them saying it will be polished we dont have the game yet we cant even see if they delivered on the words every other game developer throw at us countless times.
So what do we really have? Promises like we always have no way of knowing if they will deliver on them and we are already out the money for it since we prepurchased. I believe we as gamers have the right to expect a polished game at release anyway (sure seems like no one delivers on that but oh well) saying now we thank Anet for promising what everyone else also promised plus already paying for the game just does not make any sense to me.
In both scenarios did you as the customer pay for an unfinished product its the same diff to me and even worse since i can still play a bugged game (unless the bugs are gamebreaking)
You make a very good point. There are of course some server upkeep costs involved, but assuming that they will be negligible in the future: why do we customers really want a "finished" product at release? What is so wrong, from a customer viewpoint, to play a "worse" version that is getting fixed while we play? If you don't want to play a worse version, just wait a year or so until they fix their product, but why take away the option to play for those who don't mind a worse version?
people who complain about a mmo not being "finished at release"and complain about it are one of the people id like to call a part of the dilussional mmo veterens
they think there an mmo veteren.because they always pipe up and claim they are,but in reality.there not,playing the same game for years and that being the only mmo you have ever played doesnt make you any mmo veteren.the true mmo veterens are the ones that are tolerating the state of the game because they know overtime the game will get better
oh and those are also the same people who have played many mmos in there life,not just one for years
* by pre-purchasing, you get beta access during randomly spread out beta events to an unfinished product.
* you get 3 days early access once the game goes retail, along with different trinkets depending on what version your pre-purchased.
2) and 3) are obvious, I wonder why you even post them... by pre-purchasing you got the right to give input about the game during each beta event on official forums, and it has already been proven that ANet listens to testers, they even changed stuff in the cash shop after negative feedback about it.
4) A fan nope, but a supporter yes (by supporter, I mean someone who paid for it or supported it in another way). And he gets it, see previous paragraph.
1. But that is not the full promise
Every article written about the game with quotes from a developer, all forum posts by developers, all blog posts, information on the games site, blogcasts/podcasts...anything, with any game detail from the company, is also part of the promise.
2 and 3 were given for a reason to lead into 4 because they are tied.
You do NOT need to have had to pay into anything to be a potential customer and in anything that is being developed, especially one were they WANT feedback...makes you worthy and ENTITLED to give that feedback.
That seems to be the thing being overlooked...MMORPG makers ASK for feedback and thus, we, the players actually ARE ENTITLED to give it. Sorry for the trap...there is no limit to the kind of feedback, though I do like to see it have at least a little bit of constructiveness to it.
But again, we actually are entitled to give it because it is being asked for.
It's always fun to see people dreaming... *rolls eyes*
jctgs, quotes are always a tricky thing as they can easily be taken out of context, so where the person being quoted may have said further things putting a completely different spin on his words, the interviewer then took only what he considered the bare bones via the quote.
Is it still a promise by the game developer/publisher if a 3rd party reports something incorrectly?
Developers are just that, the guys who work their job as part of a team within the whole game creating complex to build the game.
They are small to maybe mid-sized cogs within the machine... and while they probably know what the machine does they may not know how the machine is used.
Because not only do you have AN here but also NCSoft who have directly nothing (or potentially) very little to do with the development of the game yet still as the parent company to AN will be involved in the publishing of the game.
And with AN probably not being a team of 3 guys who all share tasks including marketing, yeah, just as with the quotation problem pointed out above, information may get mixed up when passed from a dev to the marketing team, even worse one member of one team my make a statement based on speculation or outdated information about another team. Bang, you really think that is a promise?
etc.
Things change in the development as a game progresses, live with it!
And yes, of course some of these changes may be based on feedback given by fans (or other outsiders), the thing is that you are not "entitled" to give that feedback, a company may give you the liberty to do so thru their own means of communication available to the outsiders: email, feedback forms, official forum, and they may just as well take that liberty away again.
And the same goes for other websites (like here) where you of course mayu also be at liberty to state your view, potentially giving feedback upon the game, and game designers may actually read that feedback or at least may be made aware of it, but the only place where you would actually be entitled to give feedback is in your own arena, a place you yourself control.
It's always fun to see people dreaming... *rolls eyes*
jctgs, quotes are always a tricky thing as they can easily be taken out of context, so where the person being quoted may have said further things putting a completely different spin on his words, the interviewer then took only what he considered the bare bones via the quote.
Is it still a promise by the game developer/publisher if a 3rd party reports something incorrectly?
*SNIP*
Things change in the development as a game progresses, live with it!
its always fun to see a consumer that believes he has no power...*roll eyes*
It is not the responsibility of a consumer if a report/interview/press release is incorrect and if ANYTHING it justifies his complaint...it sure does not remove the fact that his opinions are valid and worthy of being spoken.
Counter question: if a person is expecting something from the game because a release the game maker took part in gave incorrect inforation and the game maker did not CORRECT it on their own site...the fault of the reader? Hell no. If someone gives an interview and they are misquoted it is their responsibility to clarify, and they ALWAYS DO IT...
lastly, no. I will NOT just live with it. I have a voice, I have a right to use it. I will not just lie down and except when I know for a FACT that consumers drive the market and we HAVE in the past effected gameplay before.
If you have chosen to be weak, be weak...dont think for a second those of us that are not weak are going to allow you to shut us down when you can be even weaker and just stop replying...or even reading for that matter.
Dont like a show? Change the channel...dont like a thread...stop reading it. Leave the speaking to those of us that know we have a voice.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Comments
Bitter post? You named two companies that may have had more funding (Acti/blizz and EA), when the vast majority don't have any where close to the funding those companies share (including Ncsoft in the haves). Funding is a huge issue for many companies, and a good reason why many games release before their time. I'm talking MMO's here..
Blizzard is beside the point as is EA, many MMO's have released due to funding drying up, they usually have two options, release and bite the proverbial bullet that is the backlash of that, or dissolve the company and game completely.
The time A-net has been given comes down to one factor, the funding to be able to release in such a way, that's it.
On top of that you're confusing studios with publishers, it's publishers that push these games out, not the studios pouring their blood and sweat into them.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I heard EA was mentioned in this thread and I was wondering if it was too late to jump on that EA is Evil train before it left the station?
TRUST THE COMPUTER! THE COMPUTER IS YOUR FRIEND!
Stay Alert! Trust No One! Keep Your Laser Handy!
Yellow Clearance Black Box Blues!
Entitlement pays off!
Hype train -> Reality
Working with artists, if youre adamant about your product not being done, your publisher won't bring it out. That is, if you have the kind of clout with the publisher. I can bet that NCsoft wanted to do what they did with Aion, push it out before the publisher was ready, and Anet, has enough clout with GW2, to tell NCSoft to back off.
We have seen it recently, designers (single player games) quitting rather than push out a product that is below standard. An artist will go that far if they feel strong about the work.
EA rushes products out for profit. We all support it, so we're all apart of the problem. And we still will be. It reminds me of the latest plotline of supernatural, where the big bad is poioning the food supply with tasty food that makes people lathargic. If you have a neat feature or one new thing, we become lathargic to the BS. Look at the Madden series. They add one enw thing a year, and its been the same game for 5 years. But because they know we like football and it doesnt matter (they are the only game in town). They don't put the resources in for something absolutely different.
Thats the point right there i could play SWOTOR after paying i cant play GW2 after paying so how can you compare that?
One game lets you pay for it and repairs it bugs why you are playing the other game lets you pay for it and repairs its bugs while well while you are playing another (maybe buggy game) and all we have is them saying it will be polished we dont have the game yet we cant even see if they delivered on the words every other game developer throw at us countless times.
So what do we really have? Promises like we always have no way of knowing if they will deliver on them and we are already out the money for it since we prepurchased. I believe we as gamers have the right to expect a polished game at release anyway (sure seems like no one delivers on that but oh well) saying now we thank Anet for promising what everyone else also promised plus already paying for the game just does not make any sense to me.
In both scenarios did you as the customer pay for an unfinished product its the same diff to me and even worse since i can still play a bugged game (unless the bugs are gamebreaking)
Oh. I see. So I should be grateful that they are not lying, that I have the privilege to give them money and that the sun is not falling down on me.
Sure it is psychologically helpful to grateful for all but you see I strive for something and it is called being objective as possible and above all read this:
I am not bending over backwards for a profit organization.
Which designers are you referring to?
Btw. most of Anet's key figures left 2-3 years ago. How you interpret that is up to you xP
Hype train -> Reality
In many cases of publisher/studio relation it's not as simple as that. When contracts are present you have an obligation to finish what you were paid to finish to the best of your ability.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
That is an interesting point that needs to be looked at further.
1. What was the full promise with the pre-purchase? Is it not every detail the company has given about the game or what is coming to the game up to that point and time?
2. Does a consumer give up all rights to give input on product development just because they pre-purchased the game?
3. Doesnt paying money into a products production give you more rights to input in the products development than someone that has no money invested?
4. Does a fan/supporter of a thing have more of a right to speak out about it...than someone who isnt?
I know one thing, if I say...buy season tickets to my favorite team and they suddenly trade away my favorite player or...they chose not to clean the stadium...im going to bitch like a 11 year old girl on the rag for the first time because my investment was altered in a way it shouldnt have been. And I will claim rights to complain more than someone that never attends a game, but watches it on TV...and that really isnt a good example because with MMORPGs the fanbase CAN move production at least a little...if only they would stick together.
Just some food for thought.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
I wasn't targeting you with the bitter posts, I was referring to others who posted before. And I list those companies because they are the ones putting out AAA titles, the OP's complaint isn't with lower budget companies, it is with the one's who have the budgets but refuse to put quality first. Lol, you mean to tell me the companies like Infinity Ward is pouring blood and sweat into their games? You think Bioware poured blood and sweat into DA2, into SWTOR? So your post about budgets drying up is irrelevant is all I'm saying, because majority of the companies who tried to release AAA MMO's had nice funding, and that's the complaint here. They didn't do all they could to put out a quality product when they have the funding to do so.
Right... remember DAoC?
How smooth a start they had (aside from a coding glitch that blocked access)?
Before release both in the US and later Europe, the game was tested for months continuously by gamers, as well as (even to these days) patches still being tested for ages on their PTS.
So, what you are painting, that game developers actually release finished products, is far from a new concept.
It is probably what every game designer would prefer to be able to do because nothing reflects more badly on a game (and especially a MMO) than being a "bad" product at launch.
So, why do it?
Because it's money!
Each day a project is tinkered with and not out there playing hooker, it's not making any money.
So the smart sales guys in their smart suits and smart haircuts come in and tell the "nerds" that they need to give them a time for release, and if Sales doesn't like it, they'll cut the time short based on their prognosis when the best time for a launch would be.
DAoC didn't have that problem because Mythic back then was completely in control of design and publishing.
How many games these days have that luxury?
Remember that GW2 is not just ArenaNet, it's also NCSoft. And you wanna bet that if NCSoft tells AN to jump and release a halfbaked game, AN will have to do so?
You also have to remember that GW2 is not your average new MMO:
They can draw upon content that GW1 has grown over 3 episodes and 1 expansion (not to mention normal game updates).
It's a bit like say Funcom sending out a bunch of people to record everything for a certain part of London and then just taking that material and simply putting it into theTSW: houses exact modelled based on the originals, texture maps actually being high rez photos of the real thing, etc.
Little designing left for you to do when somebody else (GW1 team, reality, etc.) has already done it for you.
Before you start calling AN the great hero of the modern MMO revolution, frankly I'd rather wait and see what actually does peel out of the egg, not how the egg's content looks when you hold it up to the light. ;-)
I prefer mine poached
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Umm...no.
Anarchy Online had round about 10k people for its stress test...which it couldnt even handle...hahaha worst launch ever.
Thats around how many were doing DAoCs Beta 1...1...there was a beta 2 and their stress testing for that was OPEN. The last full month had around 70k stress testing on weekends.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
1) The full promise was simple:
* there is NO release date yet.
* by pre-purchasing, you get beta access during randomly spread out beta events to an unfinished product.
* you get 3 days early access once the game goes retail, along with different trinkets depending on what version your pre-purchased.
2) and 3) are obvious, I wonder why you even post them... by pre-purchasing you got the right to give input about the game during each beta event on official forums, and it has already been proven that ANet listens to testers, they even changed stuff in the cash shop after negative feedback about it.
4) A fan nope, but a supporter yes (by supporter, I mean someone who paid for it or supported it in another way). And he gets it, see previous paragraph.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
No, in general MMOs all come with their little "Gameplay May Change During Online Play" backdoor, so what may have been "suggested" yesterday may not be in day after tomorrow. While maybe having been in today. And sort of in tomorrow.
The "full" promise of the pre-purchase was really just that you'd get a game that (at time of pre-purchase) is called Guild Wars 2, and that you have access to all BWEs, that you get a 3 day headstart, and that you have that Hero's Band boon.
Nothing more, really.
If AN suddenly figured that GW2 should be all about dancing sealions and scruffy pandas, well, they could do that.
Of course, many people would feel cheated as AN would have "violated" the GW IP... and yet, if you look at IPs, things that have been based on them, and fans and their feelings about the result, yeah, you know you should never trust in just the IP. ;-)
Which brings us straight to fans/consumers and their "right" of input.
See, a couple of years back I had the pleasure of investing a fair amout of money into a musical show. Which made me an Exceutive Producer.
Which really just meant nothing other than being a cashcow and if all of us business partners managed to make up a majority front, we could effect certain "things".
Which may have meant that if we get 51% of all shares in line we could of course of gotten the suggestion in that have Stacy wear a red bra as part of her go-go outfit, a purple bra would be nicer.
Now, imagine calling a shareholder meeting for every single piece of "poop" that may come up, every tiny decision that needs to be made.
Rather you put your trust into one person to make all of these menial decisions for you and really just bother you with the important stuff. Though of course you may still keep an eye on things.
As a pre-purchase customer you are not much different than that: you have put your trust into AN/NCSoft to deliver GW2 to you.
And whether you like the fact that there are dancing sealions in the game will only be relevant if you were to get a huge enough "mob" together to tell AN "no, we don't want dancing sealions!"
Though, what actual force you could bring to that stand, I honestly don't know as I didn't pre-purchase GW2 and therefore don't know the exact terms and conditions that come with it.
That may well be something somebody who pre-purchased GW2 thru AN/NCS should probably post for evaluation i.e. what your options are to void that purchase.
As a fan, hey, things are pretty much the same, alas without really having to worry about getting your money back: shout as much as you like and AN may listen if enough people are shouting... but getting your money back? Well, that would be upon release of the game... and unless you can prove that the game is actually "faulty" you can only hope for the seller's "show of mercy" ;-)
I don't get why we're supposed to be grateful to any company for providing a product. Either you like the product and buy it, or you don't. I can see respecting a developer for their methods, but being grateful seems like you're applying some form of idolatry to the company.
Also, the OP is making a point about how great it is that they're not releasing a game before it's finished. That is great... But they're selling the game at full price right now. So they're not really doing anything different than any other company, except not letting you play their game even though you've paid in full for it. I don't see how that's to be respected any more than what other companies do.
True, it's the consumers choice to buy it before it's ready or not, but that's not the point, nor the argument, that's being made.
1. But that is not the full promise
Every article written about the game with quotes from a developer, all forum posts by developers, all blog posts, information on the games site, blogcasts/podcasts...anything, with any game detail from the company, is also part of the promise.
2 and 3 were given for a reason to lead into 4 because they are tied.
You do NOT need to have had to pay into anything to be a potential customer and in anything that is being developed, especially one were they WANT feedback...makes you worthy and ENTITLED to give that feedback.
That seems to be the thing being overlooked...MMORPG makers ASK for feedback and thus, we, the players actually ARE ENTITLED to give it. Sorry for the trap...there is no limit to the kind of feedback, though I do like to see it have at least a little bit of constructiveness to it.
But again, we actually are entitled to give it because it is being asked for.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
im sure they can polish it all they want.but with looking at swtor,the wow community will just come in.and try to somehow get everything in wow into gw2 and when that doesnt happen.they'll stomp there feet like 2 year olds and leave
my point is,you can polish the game all you want.but that doesnt mean anything when people will just up and leave regardless of how polished the game is.me personally though,i didnt quit wow just to play a game with the same immature playerbase i hated in wow,so i guess ill be out and playing another mmo if that happens
You make a very good point. There are of course some server upkeep costs involved, but assuming that they will be negligible in the future: why do we customers really want a "finished" product at release? What is so wrong, from a customer viewpoint, to play a "worse" version that is getting fixed while we play? If you don't want to play a worse version, just wait a year or so until they fix their product, but why take away the option to play for those who don't mind a worse version?
people who complain about a mmo not being "finished at release"and complain about it are one of the people id like to call a part of the dilussional mmo veterens
they think there an mmo veteren.because they always pipe up and claim they are,but in reality.there not,playing the same game for years and that being the only mmo you have ever played doesnt make you any mmo veteren.the true mmo veterens are the ones that are tolerating the state of the game because they know overtime the game will get better
oh and those are also the same people who have played many mmos in there life,not just one for years
eather way though,i just hope guild wars 2 doesnt turn out like swtor
meaning,half the community leaves before the game even had a chance to try to get better because they expected a perfect game at release
It's always fun to see people dreaming... *rolls eyes*
jctgs, quotes are always a tricky thing as they can easily be taken out of context, so where the person being quoted may have said further things putting a completely different spin on his words, the interviewer then took only what he considered the bare bones via the quote.
Is it still a promise by the game developer/publisher if a 3rd party reports something incorrectly?
Developers are just that, the guys who work their job as part of a team within the whole game creating complex to build the game.
They are small to maybe mid-sized cogs within the machine... and while they probably know what the machine does they may not know how the machine is used.
Because not only do you have AN here but also NCSoft who have directly nothing (or potentially) very little to do with the development of the game yet still as the parent company to AN will be involved in the publishing of the game.
And with AN probably not being a team of 3 guys who all share tasks including marketing, yeah, just as with the quotation problem pointed out above, information may get mixed up when passed from a dev to the marketing team, even worse one member of one team my make a statement based on speculation or outdated information about another team. Bang, you really think that is a promise?
etc.
Things change in the development as a game progresses, live with it!
And yes, of course some of these changes may be based on feedback given by fans (or other outsiders), the thing is that you are not "entitled" to give that feedback, a company may give you the liberty to do so thru their own means of communication available to the outsiders: email, feedback forms, official forum, and they may just as well take that liberty away again.
And the same goes for other websites (like here) where you of course mayu also be at liberty to state your view, potentially giving feedback upon the game, and game designers may actually read that feedback or at least may be made aware of it, but the only place where you would actually be entitled to give feedback is in your own arena, a place you yourself control.
its always fun to see a consumer that believes he has no power...*roll eyes*
It is not the responsibility of a consumer if a report/interview/press release is incorrect and if ANYTHING it justifies his complaint...it sure does not remove the fact that his opinions are valid and worthy of being spoken.
Counter question: if a person is expecting something from the game because a release the game maker took part in gave incorrect inforation and the game maker did not CORRECT it on their own site...the fault of the reader? Hell no. If someone gives an interview and they are misquoted it is their responsibility to clarify, and they ALWAYS DO IT...
lastly, no. I will NOT just live with it. I have a voice, I have a right to use it. I will not just lie down and except when I know for a FACT that consumers drive the market and we HAVE in the past effected gameplay before.
If you have chosen to be weak, be weak...dont think for a second those of us that are not weak are going to allow you to shut us down when you can be even weaker and just stop replying...or even reading for that matter.
Dont like a show? Change the channel...dont like a thread...stop reading it. Leave the speaking to those of us that know we have a voice.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
As much as I love Guild Wars 2, no one should settle for less than great.