When sandboxes stop trying pawn off players griefing players, no matter how creatively, as content, I'll start taking them seriously. Players don't generate content, we consume it.
Give me an open world that can live and evolve without players in it, and I'll be among the first to take up residence.
Minecraft ?
Originally posted by eHug
Originally posted by UnlightWhen sandboxes stop trying pawn off players griefing players, no matter how creatively, as content, I'll start taking them seriously. Players don't generate content, we consume it.
I never understood the constant complaints about PKs or griefers, they don't affect my game play much. Sure, they can temporarily lock me out from a small area or similar, but what keeps you from doing something else or (what I usually do) finding help to take sweet revenge?
If you prefer it all fluffy and friendly, PVP games aren't your thing but hey, there are tons of PVE games for you if you can't or don't want to handle PVP, nobody forces you to play a PVP game.
As for players not creating content, I don't agree. If the developers give the players the right tools, the players can create it with ease. And there are plenty of players that prefer creating content over just consuming it, just look at Minecraft or Lego if you want non examples that everybody knows about.
Originally posted by UnlightGive me an open world that can live and evolve without players in it, and I'll be among the first to take up residence.
Why don't you play single player games then? They seem to be exactly what you look for. No other players annoying your gaming fun, no monthly fees either.
I think I understand what Unlight is talking about. To the exception of UO, which added the “PvE only” option later (Trammel) to save the game from players leaving for EQ to escape the ganking and griefing, every other attempt at a sandbox MMORPG more or less forces PvP on you, like it or not. And except EvE, which did the smart thing of adding areas with different levels of PvP, and therefore survived, all other "sandbox" attempts miserably failed because of that. Recent examples are Darkfall and Mortal Online, which both failed and are on "life support" with a vestigial player base because the arrogant developers refused to listen to the vast majority of the player base, which would like to enjoy a sandbox game without having to worry about young 13 year old Johnny Nolife ganking him and camping his corpse as soon as he logs into the game.
Why those stubborn and arrogant developers think that sandbox automatically equals FFA PvP is beyond my understanding. The two sandbox MMOs which are successes, UO and EvE, succeeded because they made compromises to cater to a larger player base. Doesn't that ring a bell? Is that really so hard to add PvE only servers and/or areas to a game?
I've played UO pre-Trammel, been there done that, and as a someone who has seen both sides of the fences, I value choice. Somedays I enjoy being on my toes and having to watch my back all the time, but other days I just want to relax and enjoy the game without having to care about Johnny Nolife. And the failure of "PvP only" MMOs proves that I'm not the only one, but more like a part of the vast majority.
Make me a good modern sandbox (UO2 please...) with the option to play PvE or PvP (or to switch at will like UO), and I'll be there without thinking twice. But no way I'm gonna play another poorly designed forced FFA PvP failure like Darkfall or MO.
That's close, but not quite. What I meant is that the world itself should be fleshed out enough, meaty enough, with enough depth to actually become what might be an equivalent to it's own separate faction, only it would be run be the developers. The world should have a life of it's own and it's own story to tell. Players however, can influence it to a greater or lesser degree, according to their actions. Basically, the world turns whether there are players there to experience it or not. However, if they are present, they can change the course of events and mold the world into something different. The job of the developers would be not only to react to these pressures, but constantly be introducing new ones or changing existing ones.
To me, sandboxes right now little more than great big, static PvP arenas. The backdrop that PvP takes place against is meaningless, therefore, what players do to one another has absolutely no context. It's pointless. May as well be playing a persistent version of Counterstrike.
Think of the real world. Unless you're a solipsist, the world will continue on with or without you. I want a world that can do that, and then try to make my mark on it.
The PvE/SP argument that's been getting thrown around is bullshit. Sandbox developers need to start building huge, exciting worlds and not glorifed arenas. Then give players the tools to influence that world. And finally, they shouldn't abandon their baby in the crib. Keep working on it. Keep developing it. Help it grow. And I don't mean by introducing new mechanics, but new plot pressures so that the game develops it's own history.
The closest correlation I can think of for what that means is the Gates of Ahn'Qiraj event in WoW. That was a major event and it changed the game in a permanent way. However, it required players to make it happen. And once it was done, it couldn't repeated. If you weren't there to participate in it when it happened, you would only ever know about it from reading about it later. That creates a history, adds depth to the world and a reason for players to plug into it.
Now not all events need to be of that magnitude. In fact, most of them should be much, much smaller in scope and far more frequent. But one thing they should have in common is that they alter the world in some way and that if you miss them, you'll only ever experience them as a secondhand accounts at best. And among all of this activity, players are pushing and pulling, influencing, carving out their own place in the scheme of things, sometimes, but not necessarily at the expense of one another.
To me, that's what a sandbox should be. When they start approaching that, I'll start being interested in them.
And Minecraft? Interesting game and fun in its own way, but completely sterile compared to what I'm looking for.
Originally posted by Quirhid Its been said few times before: Its not about sandbox or themepark people just don't play shitty games.
I think that's worth repeating.
The terms sandbox and themepark don't have any real meaning. It's all the same I-Speak that Steve Jobs would spout off. "Innovative, Revolutionary, Magical, It Just Works."
Bingo, i hate the terms, because those who cry sandbox simply want a civilization game, not an RPG, which, defeats the purpose. I want an RPG that i can play with a Massive amount of Multiple players Online.
I want each game to just be different, combat different, stories brought to me and told differently, this is what game design used to be, creativity. I don't care if you give me the ability to build a house, is it fun? Is it incorporated around a great story. I don't have to repeat content to do it do i?
The terms sandbox and themepark don't have any real meaning. It's all the same I-Speak that Steve Jobs would spout off. "Innovative, Revolutionary, Magical, It Just Works."
Very apt. I agree.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
There is no such thing as themepark syndrome.I[mod edit]
As some people have already figured out, the problem with MMO is that they just play suck and haven't really adapted itself to the current market conditions which is logical given the amount of time it takes to build an MMO unlike a regular game.
What do i mean by adapted to current market conditions?
Sub fee- a lot of people are not gonna be happy with this, but people (new players) are less likely to spend money on a medicore mmo like they would in the past, now that the is more choice in the scene.
WoWish - A lot of publishers look at 10 million subs and they want a piece of that action, while completely negating that WoW success was a fluke. It came out at the best possible time with enough features that could appeal to the non gamers. So publishers want to make another way, but the only way to make WoW is to recreate the gaming period that when WoW was released in.
Gamers age - MMOs are still being designed for the non life players, the guy that can put 6+ hours without blinking. Also most MMOs imo, require too much time investment to appeal to the larger segment.
Most MMO suck.
In all honestly, i think MMOs and even gaming in general is due for a video game crash like it happen in 1983. And I hope it happens because that might lead to better games in general.
And always have. Gamers do seem to be developing a desire for a money-back guarantee of everlasting satisfaction before they peel open their wallet and dig out that precious three hours of pay, however.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I don't agree. Is bashing a MOB Sandbox or Themepark?
But really, I don't want to devolve an otherwise fine conversation into this argument.
Bashing a mob is really too small a detail to consider either, but PVE combat on the whole is predominantly themepark. The only way it could be considered otherwise is if the way the player "fights" is like oldschool Populous (manipulating the entire game world to achieve victory in combat.)
You have sand and you have rides.
Sandboxes were originally defined because they're a bunch of sand and players create their own stuff, while the themepark players ride the rides the developers constructed and can't change the rides. The dynamic Diablo-esque dungeon you describe is definitely the latter. It's definitely themepark.
You can disagree, but really you're disagreeing with all the developers who coined these concepts in the first place and the fundamental idea behind each concept. You could also disagree with the definition of "up" but that isn't going to change what it means to everyone else.
But, what you can do, is to define "up" as positive value on the z-axis. What is considered commonly considered "up" on one side of the Earth is considered to be "down" on the opposite side of the Earth.
Impact of this forum or any other is rather small the gamers who come here is small group, influence game devs almost zero, so don't worry to much devlopers won't take notice:)
Ive seen so many complaints about diablo3 here on mmorpg.com look what it brought blizzard record sales lol.
Stop delute yourselfs people don't think for second we make a difference here we don't and thats why for so many years we get crappy themeparks and will TESO be no different cater towards the themepark casual gamers.
Its a forum for discussion only the subject we like games and in general mmo's thats all it is.
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Yes, but the GM could "cheat" and make min/max less prevalent.
Speaking as a GM I wouldn't cheat like that. I think I'd be wrong if I wouldn't let the players enjoy the benefits of their min-maxing. Who am I to tell them how they should enjoy the game?
And in computer games it is called "fixing something not working as intended", "balancing" and nerf.
As a GM you weren't telling them how to enjoy the game, you were creating a game and making sure they enjoyed it.
Some of the most popular mods and maps for Minecraft are survivalist ones that create higher difficulty in surviving.
To me that fact alone says people (some) aren't exactly looking for absolute freedom or to create their own content in a game. Instead, I believe, that people (some, including me) just want a challenge and diverse tools to beat that challenge in several different ways hopefully all those ways will be balanced between them).
The most traditional MMORPGs give you different tools but they are mostly cosmetic, because what you require to beat content is a Tank, a Healer and DPS.
Considering that, it isn't surprising that many disgruntled with themepark MMRPGs look into Sandox MMORPGs where a big part of the content is PvP and Human Players aren't beat by Tanks, Healers, DPS like the AI mobs are.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Some of the most popular mods and maps for Minecraft are survivalist ones that create higher difficulty in surviving.
To me that fact alone says people (some) aren't exactly looking for absolute freedom or to create their own content in a game. Instead, I believe, that people (some, including me) just want a challenge and diverse tools to beat that challenge in several different ways hopefully all those ways will be balanced between them).
The most traditional MMORPGs give you different tools but they are mostly cosmetic, because what you require to beat content is a Tank, a Healer and DPS.
Considering that, it isn't surprising that many disgruntled with themepark MMRPGs look into Sandox MMORPGs where a big part of the content is PvP and Human Players aren't beat by Tanks, Healers, DPS like the AI mobs are.
It is true that the majority of themeparks rely on holy trinity, but that doesn't make trinity a themepark feature. Classes have little to do with it either. Trinity is about specific type of encounter, combat and AI design. A sandbox can certainly have tanks, healers and DPS and many do.
It is also true that trinity falls apart when you talk about PvP, but PvP is not exclusive to sandboxes either, is it? Trinity is safe. It works and many are used to it. You can't go terribly wrong if your game relies on it. Thats why it is so attractive to high profile games almost all of which are themeparks. Even Eve, a sandbox, has trinity of sorts mainly because combat is so simple and apart from invasions and wormholes the AI sucks.
I too, think that trinity makes combat predictable and formulaic = easy. I'm actually happy to see many games trying to go for different types of encounter design, group dynamics and improved AI, but these changes are by no means exclusive to sandboxes.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Considering that, it isn't surprising that many disgruntled with themepark MMRPGs look into Sandox MMORPGs where a big part of the content is PvP and Human Players aren't beat by Tanks, Healers, DPS like the AI mobs are.
If you think that the way to improve themeparks is to stick sandbox PvP into them you're delusional.
Considering that, it isn't surprising that many disgruntled with themepark MMRPGs look into Sandox MMORPGs where a big part of the content is PvP and Human Players aren't beat by Tanks, Healers, DPS like the AI mobs are.
If you think that the way to improve themeparks is to stick sandbox PvP into them you're delusional.
Good thing I didn't say anything of the sort then.
Actually I even despise PvP via proxy PvE.
I just meant that one of the mechanics present in most MMORPGs is the holy trinity and all play pretty much the same.
Many people talking that the "salvation" of MMORPGs are sandboxes, player generated content this player generated content that, are just failing to see that it feels different because the enemy "AI" is more unpredictable/clever/cunning since the enemy are other humans.
Seeing your signature, it seems likely you played GW2. One of the things GW2 devs talked about is how close the PvE combat mechanics resembles the PvP combat mechanics.
Didn't you enjoy GW2 combat?
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Also it is interesting people bring Minecraft up.Some of the most popular mods and maps for Minecraft are survivalist ones that create higher difficulty in surviving.To me that fact alone says people (some) aren't exactly looking for absolute freedom or to create their own content in a game. Instead, I believe, that people (some, including me) just want a challenge and diverse tools to beat that challenge in several different ways hopefully all those ways will be balanced between them).The most traditional MMORPGs give you different tools but they are mostly cosmetic, because what you require to beat content is a Tank, a Healer and DPS.Considering that, it isn't surprising that many disgruntled with themepark MMRPGs look into Sandox MMORPGs where a big part of the content is PvP and Human Players aren't beat by Tanks, Healers, DPS like the AI mobs are.
It is true that the majority of themeparks rely on holy trinity, but that doesn't make trinity a themepark feature. Classes have little to do with it either. Trinity is about specific type of encounter, combat and AI design. A sandbox can certainly have tanks, healers and DPS and many do.It is also true that trinity falls apart when you talk about PvP, but PvP is not exclusive to sandboxes either, is it? Trinity is safe. It works and many are used to it. You can't go terribly wrong if your game relies on it. Thats why it is so attractive to high profile games almost all of which are themeparks. Even Eve, a sandbox, has trinity of sorts mainly because combat is so simple and apart from invasions and wormholes the AI sucks.I too, think that trinity makes combat predictable and formulaic = easy. I'm actually happy to see many games trying to go for different types of encounter design, group dynamics and improved AI, but these changes are by no means exclusive to sandboxes.
I'm not saying sandboxes are a superior alternative to themeparks, far from it.
I'm a player that don't really like to have to sink hours upon hours on a game just to make things happen, so that pretty much rules MMORPG sandboxes out of my game repertoire.
In my opinion trinity is just a mechanism developers use to get away with simplistic AI and combat.
I can see themepark and sandboxes converge in the future or having the themepark evolve into a themepark/sandbox hybrid of sorts and sandboxes, alongside grindy themeparks. becoming a holdout for players that believe time spent in the game should be equaled to skill/rewards/achievements in game.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Considering that, it isn't surprising that many disgruntled with themepark MMRPGs look into Sandox MMORPGs where a big part of the content is PvP and Human Players aren't beat by Tanks, Healers, DPS like the AI mobs are.
If you think that the way to improve themeparks is to stick sandbox PvP into them you're delusional.
Good thing I didn't say anything of the sort then.
Actually I even despise PvP via proxy PvE.
I just meant that one of the mechanics present in most MMORPGs is the holy trinity and all play pretty much the same.
Many people talking that the "salvation" of MMORPGs are sandboxes, player generated content this player generated content that, are just failing to see that it feels different because the enemy "AI" is more unpredictable/clever/cunning since the enemy are other humans.
Seeing your signature, it seems likely you played GW2. One of the things GW2 devs talked about is how close the PvE combat mechanics resembles the PvP combat mechanics.
Didn't you enjoy GW2 combat?
Trinity has nothing to do with predictable combat mechanics. TERA has it, and i'm pretty sure that if you try to stand still you're going to die. TSW also focuses on movement. And, because it's skill besed, the veriety of encounters can be even greater, like the final Polaris boss where you can't use a tank. Also, many mobs and bosses in GW2 where mostly "dodge, dogde, dodge, attack, attack, dodge, rinse and repeat"
However, that obviously doens't count for all, of not most, of it's encounters. Every AI becomes predictable after a while. Just start to learn the patterns of it's attacks, timing, etc. MMORPG have a far harder time with them simply because in a SP, you play it, finish it, and then, if you start all over, it becomes ALOT easier.
Considering that, it isn't surprising that many disgruntled with themepark MMRPGs look into Sandox MMORPGs where a big part of the content is PvP and Human Players aren't beat by Tanks, Healers, DPS like the AI mobs are.
If you think that the way to improve themeparks is to stick sandbox PvP into them you're delusional.
Good thing I didn't say anything of the sort then.
Actually I even despise PvP via proxy PvE.
I just meant that one of the mechanics present in most MMORPGs is the holy trinity and all play pretty much the same.
Many people talking that the "salvation" of MMORPGs are sandboxes, player generated content this player generated content that, are just failing to see that it feels different because the enemy "AI" is more unpredictable/clever/cunning since the enemy are other humans.
Seeing your signature, it seems likely you played GW2. One of the things GW2 devs talked about is how close the PvE combat mechanics resembles the PvP combat mechanics.
Didn't you enjoy GW2 combat?
Trinity has nothing to do with predictable combat mechanics. TERA has it, and i'm pretty sure that if you try to stand still you're going to die. TSW also focuses on movement. And, because it's skill besed, the veriety of encounters can be even greater, like the final Polaris boss where you can't use a tank. Also, many mobs and bosses in GW2 where mostly "dodge, dogde, dodge, attack, attack, dodge, rinse and repeat"
However, that obviously doens't count for all, of not most, of it's encounters. Every AI becomes predictable after a while. Just start to learn the patterns of it's attacks, timing, etc. MMORPG have a far harder time with them simply because in a SP, you play it, finish it, and then, if you start all over, it becomes ALOT easier.
Of course trinity leads to predictable combat mechanics.
What happens if the tank lose aggro? Players die.
What happens if the tank dies? Party wipes.
What happens if the healer dies? Tank dies and party wipes.
Obviously static combat is another reason, but that generaly happens because you have a tank, meaning most of the time the healers and DPS are just standing still (unless green goo pops on the floor):
Tera also has activated dodge and big telegraphic attacks that makes it easy to get out of the way, using activie dodge or just stepping out of the way. It is fun, because Tera has a ton of mobs that can one shot you, but it still isn't a hard game since you have quite a long time to move away.
And no, mobs and bosses in GW2 aren't "dodge, dodge, dodge, attack, attack, dodge" - first you can only dodge twice in a row. Second attack on the move. Third it was only the early areas, so I doubt it is many mobs.
I agree with you that it is impossible to keep a game challenging for everyone forever (unless if the game is designed to be impossible), but MMORPGs based on a static trinity combat, clearly help the AI becoming easier much quicker.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
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Considering that, it isn't surprising that many disgruntled with themepark MMRPGs look into Sandox MMORPGs where a big part of the content is PvP and Human Players aren't beat by Tanks, Healers, DPS like the AI mobs are.
If you think that the way to improve themeparks is to stick sandbox PvP into them you're delusional.
If you think they are not, then it's because you are selfish and don't tend to look over the fence. A good solution would be to have different servers types. PVE for mob lovers and fans of duels and small scale pvp instances, PVP for the people that enjoy competition, sieges and stuff like that.
On PVP servers you could fight for certain territories like eg in Lineage 2, on PVE servers you could vote like you eg. do in Tera. (Awfull idea to have democratic votes on the Tera PVP servers btw).
Trinity has nothing to do with predictable combat mechanics. TERA has it, and i'm pretty sure that if you try to stand still you're going to die. TSW also focuses on movement. And, because it's skill besed, the veriety of encounters can be even greater, like the final Polaris boss where you can't use a tank. Also, many mobs and bosses in GW2 where mostly "dodge, dogde, dodge, attack, attack, dodge, rinse and repeat"
However, that obviously doens't count for all, of not most, of it's encounters. Every AI becomes predictable after a while. Just start to learn the patterns of it's attacks, timing, etc. MMORPG have a far harder time with them simply because in a SP, you play it, finish it, and then, if you start all over, it becomes ALOT easier.
I've seen people who have been used to conventional tank 'n' spank strategy get confused when they're playing Guild Wars 1 - a game without a conventional tank. There is no way to manipulate aggro in that game, so the players in question described it as being "chaotic" and unpredictable. One player decided that he didn't like it because it didn't have the strict trinity.
This and many years of gaming makes me think that trinity makes combat easier. You'd have to bring pretty strong evidence to contrary to make me change my mind.
Every combat in a trinity game goes along the same formula: the tank holds aggro and takes hits, the healer keeps the tank from dying, DPS does damage. There is very little change. Few games add minor party roles such as buffer and controller etc. and many add secondary roles, but all of them rely on the same trinity backbone. It is predictable, it is arcaic, it has no connection to real combat and I've grown bored with it.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Originally posted by Quirhid Originally posted by FredomSekerZOriginally posted by Gaia_Hunter
Trinity has nothing to do with predictable combat mechanics. TERA has it, and i'm pretty sure that if you try to stand still you're going to die. TSW also focuses on movement. And, because it's skill besed, the veriety of encounters can be even greater, like the final Polaris boss where you can't use a tank. Also, many mobs and bosses in GW2 where mostly "dodge, dogde, dodge, attack, attack, dodge, rinse and repeat"However, that obviously doens't count for all, of not most, of it's encounters. Every AI becomes predictable after a while. Just start to learn the patterns of it's attacks, timing, etc. MMORPG have a far harder time with them simply because in a SP, you play it, finish it, and then, if you start all over, it becomes ALOT easier.I've seen people who have been used to conventional tank 'n' spank strategy get confused when they're playing Guild Wars 1 - a game without a conventional tank. There is no way to manipulate aggro in that game, so the players in question described it as being "chaotic" and unpredictable. One player decided that he didn't like it because it didn't have the strict trinity.
This and many years of gaming makes me think that trinity makes combat easier. You'd have to bring pretty strong evidence to contrary to make me change my mind.
Every combat in a trinity game goes along the same formula: the tank holds aggro and takes hits, the healer keeps the tank from dying, DPS does damage. There is very little change. Few games add minor party roles such as buffer and controller etc. and many add secondary roles, but all of them rely on the same trinity backbone. It is predictable, it is arcaic, it has no connection to real combat and I've grown bored with it.
Trinity combat isn't inherently any easier, but it depends on how the fights themselves are setup. It's all about timing, and learning the 'dance'. This can be as hard or as easy as the developer makes it.
Personally, I prefer the non-trinity combat. I like the chaos. It is just more fun.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Bottom line is that you can only go so far with the current setup. Its what WOW did and everyone who makes a themepark just tries to deliver the same strategy with a new skin and some twists.
Bottom line is that leveling up is dreaded, mabey not the first time but guranteed when you want a new class its not going to be enjoyed. Goal is to get to endgame as fast as possibly, rendering a large portion of the game pointless filler.
Then endgame follows two options. Gear checked tier grinding. Run those instances untill you get the gear needed to run the next tier. Last is the raids, which may or may not be tierd. Once a week per instance, a pain to organize if your not in a serious guild. Endgame is based on premade schedules made by your guild with may or may not fit in with your life.
Then pvp, which is somewhat tierd, but the focus is on running instanced pvp battleground of one form or another to accumulate points to get pvp gear to make you better at pvp. Run the same few instances overand over, goal is to be in a premade to make the win as fast and easy as possible for more efficiant point farming. Often, if its an option, choose the instance thats the quickest to end and ignore all others.
There you have it, every themepark released since wow. Race to endgame, repeate instances, wait for them to add a few more levels and a few more instances.
Once you get fully geared in pve and/or pvp just roll another character and repeate. Thats it. No matter how many public quests/dynamic events its all the same, no matter what the twist is, your still repeating the same instances over and over untill your geard and then doing it over again.
This is a wow-park. The bastard child of EQ2 and DAOC. Only thing that really holds you into a game like this is the community, something thats degrading in these games, and one of the reasons why i believe wow was able to stay on top so long. Its the same game but that one had a built in community that stayed, thanks to battlenet.
So years after it all changed to the same thing...when people branch out to a new game its short lived, once they get that feeling that its the same old game they just left but staying long term is STILL community dependant, dont find a commuinty in game that you enjoy and that will stick around then it doesnt last longer than a month or two.
And thats why people hype up every new one like it will be diffrent, and it feels like it is at first, but then your at endgame grinding gear and finding out the community your involved with is either sub-par or bailing on the game once a new one is on the horizon.
So now people play that new mmorpg (themepark) for a few months, get pissed, and look for another one. Rather than branching out to a diffrent type of mmorpg (few exist now however) or branching out to a diffrent type of game (or no game).
This is why so many rage at every new release.
Its high time people either started to enjoy causally playing the content of the game ( leveling up rather than racing through it) or developers create a new thing to do once you hit that level cap..other than gear grinding in pve or pvp flavors.
Comments
That's close, but not quite. What I meant is that the world itself should be fleshed out enough, meaty enough, with enough depth to actually become what might be an equivalent to it's own separate faction, only it would be run be the developers. The world should have a life of it's own and it's own story to tell. Players however, can influence it to a greater or lesser degree, according to their actions. Basically, the world turns whether there are players there to experience it or not. However, if they are present, they can change the course of events and mold the world into something different. The job of the developers would be not only to react to these pressures, but constantly be introducing new ones or changing existing ones.
To me, sandboxes right now little more than great big, static PvP arenas. The backdrop that PvP takes place against is meaningless, therefore, what players do to one another has absolutely no context. It's pointless. May as well be playing a persistent version of Counterstrike.
Think of the real world. Unless you're a solipsist, the world will continue on with or without you. I want a world that can do that, and then try to make my mark on it.
The PvE/SP argument that's been getting thrown around is bullshit. Sandbox developers need to start building huge, exciting worlds and not glorifed arenas. Then give players the tools to influence that world. And finally, they shouldn't abandon their baby in the crib. Keep working on it. Keep developing it. Help it grow. And I don't mean by introducing new mechanics, but new plot pressures so that the game develops it's own history.
The closest correlation I can think of for what that means is the Gates of Ahn'Qiraj event in WoW. That was a major event and it changed the game in a permanent way. However, it required players to make it happen. And once it was done, it couldn't repeated. If you weren't there to participate in it when it happened, you would only ever know about it from reading about it later. That creates a history, adds depth to the world and a reason for players to plug into it.
Now not all events need to be of that magnitude. In fact, most of them should be much, much smaller in scope and far more frequent. But one thing they should have in common is that they alter the world in some way and that if you miss them, you'll only ever experience them as a secondhand accounts at best. And among all of this activity, players are pushing and pulling, influencing, carving out their own place in the scheme of things, sometimes, but not necessarily at the expense of one another.
To me, that's what a sandbox should be. When they start approaching that, I'll start being interested in them.
And Minecraft? Interesting game and fun in its own way, but completely sterile compared to what I'm looking for.
Bingo, i hate the terms, because those who cry sandbox simply want a civilization game, not an RPG, which, defeats the purpose. I want an RPG that i can play with a Massive amount of Multiple players Online.
I want each game to just be different, combat different, stories brought to me and told differently, this is what game design used to be, creativity. I don't care if you give me the ability to build a house, is it fun? Is it incorporated around a great story. I don't have to repeat content to do it do i?
Very apt. I agree.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
There is no such thing as themepark syndrome.I[mod edit]
As some people have already figured out, the problem with MMO is that they just play suck and haven't really adapted itself to the current market conditions which is logical given the amount of time it takes to build an MMO unlike a regular game.
What do i mean by adapted to current market conditions?
^ This guy gets it.
Also, what Unlight said.
Fortunately, I believe the latest wave of WoW-clones is gonna die off now and we'll be getting some more interesting MMO's now.
And always have. Gamers do seem to be developing a desire for a money-back guarantee of everlasting satisfaction before they peel open their wallet and dig out that precious three hours of pay, however.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
But, what you can do, is to define "up" as positive value on the z-axis. What is considered commonly considered "up" on one side of the Earth is considered to be "down" on the opposite side of the Earth.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
Impact of this forum or any other is rather small the gamers who come here is small group, influence game devs almost zero, so don't worry to much devlopers won't take notice:)
Ive seen so many complaints about diablo3 here on mmorpg.com look what it brought blizzard record sales lol.
Stop delute yourselfs people don't think for second we make a difference here we don't and thats why for so many years we get crappy themeparks and will TESO be no different cater towards the themepark casual gamers.
Its a forum for discussion only the subject we like games and in general mmo's thats all it is.
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I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
And in computer games it is called "fixing something not working as intended", "balancing" and nerf.
As a GM you weren't telling them how to enjoy the game, you were creating a game and making sure they enjoyed it.
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Also it is interesting people bring Minecraft up.
Some of the most popular mods and maps for Minecraft are survivalist ones that create higher difficulty in surviving.
To me that fact alone says people (some) aren't exactly looking for absolute freedom or to create their own content in a game. Instead, I believe, that people (some, including me) just want a challenge and diverse tools to beat that challenge in several different ways hopefully all those ways will be balanced between them).
The most traditional MMORPGs give you different tools but they are mostly cosmetic, because what you require to beat content is a Tank, a Healer and DPS.
Considering that, it isn't surprising that many disgruntled with themepark MMRPGs look into Sandox MMORPGs where a big part of the content is PvP and Human Players aren't beat by Tanks, Healers, DPS like the AI mobs are.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
It is true that the majority of themeparks rely on holy trinity, but that doesn't make trinity a themepark feature. Classes have little to do with it either. Trinity is about specific type of encounter, combat and AI design. A sandbox can certainly have tanks, healers and DPS and many do.
It is also true that trinity falls apart when you talk about PvP, but PvP is not exclusive to sandboxes either, is it? Trinity is safe. It works and many are used to it. You can't go terribly wrong if your game relies on it. Thats why it is so attractive to high profile games almost all of which are themeparks. Even Eve, a sandbox, has trinity of sorts mainly because combat is so simple and apart from invasions and wormholes the AI sucks.
I too, think that trinity makes combat predictable and formulaic = easy. I'm actually happy to see many games trying to go for different types of encounter design, group dynamics and improved AI, but these changes are by no means exclusive to sandboxes.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
If you think that the way to improve themeparks is to stick sandbox PvP into them you're delusional.
Actually I even despise PvP via proxy PvE.
I just meant that one of the mechanics present in most MMORPGs is the holy trinity and all play pretty much the same.
Many people talking that the "salvation" of MMORPGs are sandboxes, player generated content this player generated content that, are just failing to see that it feels different because the enemy "AI" is more unpredictable/clever/cunning since the enemy are other humans.
Seeing your signature, it seems likely you played GW2. One of the things GW2 devs talked about is how close the PvE combat mechanics resembles the PvP combat mechanics.
Didn't you enjoy GW2 combat?
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
I'm not saying sandboxes are a superior alternative to themeparks, far from it.I'm a player that don't really like to have to sink hours upon hours on a game just to make things happen, so that pretty much rules MMORPG sandboxes out of my game repertoire.
In my opinion trinity is just a mechanism developers use to get away with simplistic AI and combat.
I can see themepark and sandboxes converge in the future or having the themepark evolve into a themepark/sandbox hybrid of sorts and sandboxes, alongside grindy themeparks. becoming a holdout for players that believe time spent in the game should be equaled to skill/rewards/achievements in game.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Trinity has nothing to do with predictable combat mechanics. TERA has it, and i'm pretty sure that if you try to stand still you're going to die. TSW also focuses on movement. And, because it's skill besed, the veriety of encounters can be even greater, like the final Polaris boss where you can't use a tank. Also, many mobs and bosses in GW2 where mostly "dodge, dogde, dodge, attack, attack, dodge, rinse and repeat"
However, that obviously doens't count for all, of not most, of it's encounters. Every AI becomes predictable after a while. Just start to learn the patterns of it's attacks, timing, etc. MMORPG have a far harder time with them simply because in a SP, you play it, finish it, and then, if you start all over, it becomes ALOT easier.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Of course trinity leads to predictable combat mechanics.
What happens if the tank lose aggro? Players die.
What happens if the tank dies? Party wipes.
What happens if the healer dies? Tank dies and party wipes.
Obviously static combat is another reason, but that generaly happens because you have a tank, meaning most of the time the healers and DPS are just standing still (unless green goo pops on the floor):
Tera also has activated dodge and big telegraphic attacks that makes it easy to get out of the way, using activie dodge or just stepping out of the way. It is fun, because Tera has a ton of mobs that can one shot you, but it still isn't a hard game since you have quite a long time to move away.
And no, mobs and bosses in GW2 aren't "dodge, dodge, dodge, attack, attack, dodge" - first you can only dodge twice in a row. Second attack on the move. Third it was only the early areas, so I doubt it is many mobs.
I agree with you that it is impossible to keep a game challenging for everyone forever (unless if the game is designed to be impossible), but MMORPGs based on a static trinity combat, clearly help the AI becoming easier much quicker.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
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If you think they are not, then it's because you are selfish and don't tend to look over the fence. A good solution would be to have different servers types. PVE for mob lovers and fans of duels and small scale pvp instances, PVP for the people that enjoy competition, sieges and stuff like that.
On PVP servers you could fight for certain territories like eg in Lineage 2, on PVE servers you could vote like you eg. do in Tera. (Awfull idea to have democratic votes on the Tera PVP servers btw).
I've seen people who have been used to conventional tank 'n' spank strategy get confused when they're playing Guild Wars 1 - a game without a conventional tank. There is no way to manipulate aggro in that game, so the players in question described it as being "chaotic" and unpredictable. One player decided that he didn't like it because it didn't have the strict trinity.
This and many years of gaming makes me think that trinity makes combat easier. You'd have to bring pretty strong evidence to contrary to make me change my mind.
Every combat in a trinity game goes along the same formula: the tank holds aggro and takes hits, the healer keeps the tank from dying, DPS does damage. There is very little change. Few games add minor party roles such as buffer and controller etc. and many add secondary roles, but all of them rely on the same trinity backbone. It is predictable, it is arcaic, it has no connection to real combat and I've grown bored with it.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I've seen people who have been used to conventional tank 'n' spank strategy get confused when they're playing Guild Wars 1 - a game without a conventional tank. There is no way to manipulate aggro in that game, so the players in question described it as being "chaotic" and unpredictable. One player decided that he didn't like it because it didn't have the strict trinity.
This and many years of gaming makes me think that trinity makes combat easier. You'd have to bring pretty strong evidence to contrary to make me change my mind.
Every combat in a trinity game goes along the same formula: the tank holds aggro and takes hits, the healer keeps the tank from dying, DPS does damage. There is very little change. Few games add minor party roles such as buffer and controller etc. and many add secondary roles, but all of them rely on the same trinity backbone. It is predictable, it is arcaic, it has no connection to real combat and I've grown bored with it.
Trinity combat isn't inherently any easier, but it depends on how the fights themselves are setup. It's all about timing, and learning the 'dance'. This can be as hard or as easy as the developer makes it.
Personally, I prefer the non-trinity combat. I like the chaos. It is just more fun.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Bottom line is that you can only go so far with the current setup. Its what WOW did and everyone who makes a themepark just tries to deliver the same strategy with a new skin and some twists.
Bottom line is that leveling up is dreaded, mabey not the first time but guranteed when you want a new class its not going to be enjoyed. Goal is to get to endgame as fast as possibly, rendering a large portion of the game pointless filler.
Then endgame follows two options. Gear checked tier grinding. Run those instances untill you get the gear needed to run the next tier. Last is the raids, which may or may not be tierd. Once a week per instance, a pain to organize if your not in a serious guild. Endgame is based on premade schedules made by your guild with may or may not fit in with your life.
Then pvp, which is somewhat tierd, but the focus is on running instanced pvp battleground of one form or another to accumulate points to get pvp gear to make you better at pvp. Run the same few instances overand over, goal is to be in a premade to make the win as fast and easy as possible for more efficiant point farming. Often, if its an option, choose the instance thats the quickest to end and ignore all others.
There you have it, every themepark released since wow. Race to endgame, repeate instances, wait for them to add a few more levels and a few more instances.
Once you get fully geared in pve and/or pvp just roll another character and repeate. Thats it. No matter how many public quests/dynamic events its all the same, no matter what the twist is, your still repeating the same instances over and over untill your geard and then doing it over again.
This is a wow-park. The bastard child of EQ2 and DAOC. Only thing that really holds you into a game like this is the community, something thats degrading in these games, and one of the reasons why i believe wow was able to stay on top so long. Its the same game but that one had a built in community that stayed, thanks to battlenet.
So years after it all changed to the same thing...when people branch out to a new game its short lived, once they get that feeling that its the same old game they just left but staying long term is STILL community dependant, dont find a commuinty in game that you enjoy and that will stick around then it doesnt last longer than a month or two.
And thats why people hype up every new one like it will be diffrent, and it feels like it is at first, but then your at endgame grinding gear and finding out the community your involved with is either sub-par or bailing on the game once a new one is on the horizon.
So now people play that new mmorpg (themepark) for a few months, get pissed, and look for another one. Rather than branching out to a diffrent type of mmorpg (few exist now however) or branching out to a diffrent type of game (or no game).
This is why so many rage at every new release.
Its high time people either started to enjoy causally playing the content of the game ( leveling up rather than racing through it) or developers create a new thing to do once you hit that level cap..other than gear grinding in pve or pvp flavors.
Damnit my post is too long and no onewill read it