Bottom line is that you can only go so far with the current setup. Its what WOW did and everyone who makes a themepark just tries to deliver the same strategy with a new skin and some twists.
Bottom line is that leveling up is dreaded, mabey not the first time but guranteed when you want a new class its not going to be enjoyed. Goal is to get to endgame as fast as possibly, rendering a large portion of the game pointless filler.
Then endgame follows two options. Gear checked tier grinding. Run those instances untill you get the gear needed to run the next tier. Last is the raids, which may or may not be tierd. Once a week per instance, a pain to organize if your not in a serious guild. Endgame is based on premade schedules made by your guild with may or may not fit in with your life.
Then pvp, which is somewhat tierd, but the focus is on running instanced pvp battleground of one form or another to accumulate points to get pvp gear to make you better at pvp. Run the same few instances overand over, goal is to be in a premade to make the win as fast and easy as possible for more efficiant point farming. Often, if its an option, choose the instance thats the quickest to end and ignore all others.
There you have it, every themepark released since wow. Race to endgame, repeate instances, wait for them to add a few more levels and a few more instances.
Once you get fully geared in pve and/or pvp just roll another character and repeate. Thats it. No matter how many public quests/dynamic events its all the same, no matter what the twist is, your still repeating the same instances over and over untill your geard and then doing it over again.
This is a wow-park. The bastard child of EQ2 and DAOC. Only thing that really holds you into a game like this is the community, something thats degrading in these games, and one of the reasons why i believe wow was able to stay on top so long. Its the same game but that one had a built in community that stayed, thanks to battlenet.
So years after it all changed to the same thing...when people branch out to a new game its short lived, once they get that feeling that its the same old game they just left but staying long term is STILL community dependant, dont find a commuinty in game that you enjoy and that will stick around then it doesnt last longer than a month or two.
And thats why people hype up every new one like it will be diffrent, and it feels like it is at first, but then your at endgame grinding gear and finding out the community your involved with is either sub-par or bailing on the game once a new one is on the horizon.
So now people play that new mmorpg (themepark) for a few months, get pissed, and look for another one. Rather than branching out to a diffrent type of mmorpg (few exist now however) or branching out to a diffrent type of game (or no game).
This is why so many rage at every new release.
Its high time people either started to enjoy causally playing the content of the game ( leveling up rather than racing through it) or developers create a new thing to do once you hit that level cap..other than gear grinding in pve or pvp flavors.
Damnit my post is too long and no onewill read it
I read it, mostly because my attention span, unlike a lot of people, is longer than that of the average gnat. I don't do "TLDR" becuause most of the time you can't summarize multiple paragraphs in two sentences.
I sympathize with your plight Crunchy, as I share it. Every new MMORPG that comes out claims to "revolutionize the genre", when it's all, once again just a thinly veiled sharade, which is for all intents and purposes identical to its predecesors.
A bit of a history lesson, which I think is lost on the majority of newer MMORPG players. Prior to WOW, games had what was called player interdependency, wherein there were no classes. Because the games relied on skills rather than classes, it allowed players more freedom in what they chose to do with their characters. Along with that, it reinforced the community because the player interdependencies fostered communication with each other. For instance, a player who specialized in combat had to communicate with an armorsmith or a weaponsmith to get the gear he needed, and he also had to communicate with a doctor or a medic to procure buffs. Also crafting professions had to communicate with the combat professions in order to acquire materials being that they had less combat proficiencies. The point being, that this situation reinforced commuication between players, and thus contributed to the community. Which I always thought was the point of MMORPGs.
Sadly though, today most players simply can't be bothered with having to communicate with other players in this way, and as such the communities of these games suffer greatly because of it. I think this has something to do with the Instant Gratification mentality of people today. Something for nothing, or with as little effort as possible. Honestly, the harder you work to achieve something, the more you will respect the achievement, although that experience should be enjoyable in the context of an MMORPG.
I can't play any of these newer games for more than a month or two. They are either boring or WOW clones. I'd rather play WOW. Except, I have only played WOW a couple of times just to see what all the talk was about. It's ok. Better than the copies at least.
I love and miss sandbox games. But, I don't think I can get back into one and play it the way I use to play sandboxes. The best example of this is EVE. That game is my ideal game. However, I just no longer have the time to play it the way I want to play it.
A game use to hold my attention for a year, easily. Some for way more than that. Now? A month. Really? The most I can hope for is a full subscription time? MMOs are getting worse with each release, not better.
These are looking to be my final days for video games. I've been wanting to get back into lifting weights again since I just finished college. Except, I have a problem. I'm freaking addicted to video games and it's hard to get into my weight-lifting routine and the discipline that comes with it.
However, when I overcome this problem, I'm gone for good.
I can't play any of these newer games for more than a month or two. They are either boring or WOW clones. I'd rather play WOW. Except, I have only played WOW a couple of times just to see what all the talk was about. It's ok. Better than the copies at least.
However, when I overcome this problem, I'm gone for good.
Why is this a problem? Are you running out of games to play? If you play a game for 2 months, you only need 6 a year. There are way more than 6 good games, particularly if you play SP games too.
I can't play any of these newer games for more than a month or two. They are either boring or WOW clones. I'd rather play WOW. Except, I have only played WOW a couple of times just to see what all the talk was about. It's ok. Better than the copies at least.
However, when I overcome this problem, I'm gone for good.
Why is this a problem? Are you running out of games to play? If you play a game for 2 months, you only need 6 a year. There are way more than 6 good games, particularly if you play SP games too.
Finding a game to play that lasts me a month is not the problem. The problem is that I am addicted to a hobby that is getting progressively worse.
Playing 6 games per year? Why not one? I've commited myself to one game for years at a time. Now games are so bad you have to play 6 different ones per year? Or worse, subbed to 2-3 games at the same time. This is not normal.
The only reason that I have tried so many games is for a chance that maybe, just maybe, something might hold my interest. They never do. Yet, I try them anyways....like a dumbass.
Another thing I'd like to point out about themeparks is that I question why they even bother with creating a world.
Seriously, why bother?
WOW for example, you stand in Org waiting for dungeon finder to pop, which warps you to the entrance and back to Org when done. Or fly past everything and everyone on a mount.
No need to talk to others, no need to go out into the world at all. Everything you need is in an auction house. Apply same rule to PVP.
I remember a time when people had to plan a dungeon raid. Run ON FOOT across the world fighting along the way to a dungeon to kill a boss that only spawns every 2 days just for a sword drop, not tokens or random loot.
Wait, it gets better. Other players were there too and your group had to kill their group. Either at the dungeon, in the dungeon, hell, in the middle of the woods in route to the dungeon.
Sadly I agree with those stating that it's not the games so much as the gamers. Yes I will agree to an extent that the genre has been a stagnant and murky pool of dissapointment for awhile now...
However, I think as a whole gamers are no longer looking for that one long term game. I think we think we're looking for that, but in truth we're not. We're looking for the next shiny. Our Genre used to consist of very few options and over the years it went from few to enough to plentiful and now to holy crap I can't even keep track of how many new ones are coming out.
I think the genre is about the short term now. Retention is nigh impossible for any new games lately. Big box sales, some hype before launch a few months of working thru the content and then onto the next big hyped game. Some suggest adding sandbox elements to help maintain retention but that won't work in my opinion. Gamers in the genre no longer desire such things. We'll look at a sandbox element and scoff and turn our noses up at it saying it's an obvious time sink and not worth the effort to get X or do Y.
It's seen time and time again when a game puts up something even remotely difficult in a game otherwise full themepark. People complain or flat out avoid the difficult or time consuming content for the easier or faster content. That's who we are as gamers now. We don't want EQ even tho we remember it fondly, we don't want UO even tho we loved it then, we certainly wouldn't love it now.
Another thing I'd like to point out about themeparks is that I question why they even bother with creating a world.
Seriously, why bother?
WOW for example, you stand in Org waiting for dungeon finder to pop, which warps you to the entrance and back to Org when done. Or fly past everything and everyone on a mount.
No need to talk to others, no need to go out into the world at all. Everything you need is in an auction house. Apply same rule to PVP.
I remember a time when people had to plan a dungeon raid. Run ON FOOT across the world fighting along the way to a dungeon to kill a boss that only spawns every 2 days just for a sword drop, not tokens or random loot.
Wait, it gets better. Other players were there too and your group had to kill their group. Either at the dungeon, in the dungeon, hell, in the middle of the woods in route to the dungeon.
This stuff use to be a big deal.
It all depends on what you want out of the game that you are paying a monthly fee to play. If you want to play WoW by doing little else than sitting AFK in Orgrimmar until a dungeon pops, you should be allowed to do so, but not everyone finds that style of play appealing. For those, there's questing in the open world while waiting for a dungeon to pop.
For the flying mounts, some want them for the sole purpose of AFKing as they fly across the continent; however, for people who enjoy exploration, flying mounts can actually increase one's ability to explore. Players have acccess to hard to reach areas that were simply impossible to reach before.As for the auction house, I can't say that everything every player needs is at the auction house. The best gear in most games does not come from the auction house. A player has to actually join a guild and secure a spot in a raid core. Not all gems or enchants that a player needs can be found at any given time on the AH, so the players must seek our gemcrafters who will provide their services. That said, if players want to gear their toons using simply what they find on the AH, they should have the option to do so if they want.
Lastly, not everyone played EverQuest or the like on a PvP server. For a lot of people, claiming a contested mob was a race against time, and it was a real bummer to clear you way to a raid boss only to find out another raid is about to kill the same mob. Said mob would often not spawn again for at least 24 hours, and not even getting a chance to down the boss you just spent hours organizing the raid for and fighting trash is a serious waste of time and a hallmark of oldschool MMORPGs best left in the past.
Forgive me if this has already been mentioned (I didn't read the full 12 pages yet), but my personal opinion holds that a large part of the problem stems from developers trying to take a queue from WoW and abusing the hell out of Pavlovian psychology tricks at the expensive of engaging gameplay. Such setups can easily create addiction, but fail miserably when it comes to enjoyment and engagement.
Unfortunately, addicts are exactly what these companies want, as they are stable sources of income.
Sadly I agree with those stating that it's not the games so much as the gamers. Yes I will agree to an extent that the genre has been a stagnant and murky pool of dissapointment for awhile now...
However, I think as a whole gamers are no longer looking for that one long term game. I think we think we're looking for that, but in truth we're not. We're looking for the next shiny. Our Genre used to consist of very few options and over the years it went from few to enough to plentiful and now to holy crap I can't even keep track of how many new ones are coming out.
I think the genre is about the short term now. Retention is nigh impossible for any new games lately. Big box sales, some hype before launch a few months of working thru the content and then onto the next big hyped game. Some suggest adding sandbox elements to help maintain retention but that won't work in my opinion. Gamers in the genre no longer desire such things. We'll look at a sandbox element and scoff and turn our noses up at it saying it's an obvious time sink and not worth the effort to get X or do Y.
It's seen time and time again when a game puts up something even remotely difficult in a game otherwise full themepark. People complain or flat out avoid the difficult or time consuming content for the easier or faster content. That's who we are as gamers now. We don't want EQ even tho we remember it fondly, we don't want UO even tho we loved it then, we certainly wouldn't love it now.
Because the new gamers think that MMOs are console games that should be beaten in a few weeks, or 52 hours like SWTOR.
Another thing I'd like to point out about themeparks is that I question why they even bother with creating a world.
Seriously, why bother?
WOW for example, you stand in Org waiting for dungeon finder to pop, which warps you to the entrance and back to Org when done. Or fly past everything and everyone on a mount.
No need to talk to others, no need to go out into the world at all. Everything you need is in an auction house. Apply same rule to PVP.
I remember a time when people had to plan a dungeon raid. Run ON FOOT across the world fighting along the way to a dungeon to kill a boss that only spawns every 2 days just for a sword drop, not tokens or random loot.
Wait, it gets better. Other players were there too and your group had to kill their group. Either at the dungeon, in the dungeon, hell, in the middle of the woods in route to the dungeon.
This stuff use to be a big deal.
It all depends on what you want out of the game that you are paying a monthly fee to play. If you want to play WoW by doing little else than sitting AFK in Orgrimmar until a dungeon pops, you should be allowed to do so, but not everyone finds that style of play appealing. For those, there's questing in the open world while waiting for a dungeon to pop.
For the flying mounts, some want them for the sole purpose of AFKing as they fly across the continent; however, for people who enjoy exploration, flying mounts can actually increase one's ability to explore. Players have acccess to hard to reach areas that were simply impossible to reach before.As for the auction house, I can't say that everything every player needs is at the auction house. The best gear in most games does not come from the auction house. A player has to actually join a guild and secure a spot in a raid core. Not all gems or enchants that a player needs can be found at any given time on the AH, so the players must seek our gemcrafters who will provide their services. That said, if players want to gear their toons using simply what they find on the AH, they should have the option to do so if they want.
Lastly, not everyone played EverQuest or the like on a PvP server. For a lot of people, claiming a contested mob was a race against time, and it was a real bummer to clear you way to a raid boss only to find out another raid is about to kill the same mob. Said mob would often not spawn again for at least 24 hours, and not even getting a chance to down the boss you just spent hours organizing the raid for and fighting trash is a serious waste of time and a hallmark of oldschool MMORPGs best left in the past.
OK, but easier is boring. I have to wonder about people who brag about achievements anymore. What exactly have those people achieved that the rest of the server has not?
Exploration, is now hitting auto-run on your flying mount and going out for a smoke.
Can you imagine the "new gamer" trying to figure out NPC factions? They can barely handle 2 player factions. There's a reason that whole list has been dropped.
These are the same kids that got trophies for being on the losing team because "everybody is a winner".
Hmm. I found the listing kinda dubious, for the following reasons: the old MMO's didn't have all those points neither, and there are quite some new MMO's that also have most of those features.
Originally posted by NorseGod
Originally posted by Gurpslord
Sadly I agree with those stating that it's not the games so much as the gamers. Yes I will agree to an extent that the genre has been a stagnant and murky pool of dissapointment for awhile now...
However, I think as a whole gamers are no longer looking for that one long term game. I think we think we're looking for that, but in truth we're not. We're looking for the next shiny. Our Genre used to consist of very few options and over the years it went from few to enough to plentiful and now to holy crap I can't even keep track of how many new ones are coming out.
I think the genre is about the short term now. Retention is nigh impossible for any new games lately. Big box sales, some hype before launch a few months of working thru the content and then onto the next big hyped game. Some suggest adding sandbox elements to help maintain retention but that won't work in my opinion. Gamers in the genre no longer desire such things. We'll look at a sandbox element and scoff and turn our noses up at it saying it's an obvious time sink and not worth the effort to get X or do Y.
It's seen time and time again when a game puts up something even remotely difficult in a game otherwise full themepark. People complain or flat out avoid the difficult or time consuming content for the easier or faster content. That's who we are as gamers now. We don't want EQ even tho we remember it fondly, we don't want UO even tho we loved it then, we certainly wouldn't love it now.
Because the new gamers think that MMOs are console games that should be beaten in a few weeks, or 52 hours like SWTOR.
No MMO should be "beaten".
If you mean with 'beaten' racing to level cap, then sure, there's a number of gamers that might think like that but I doubt whether the majority think like that. Besides, even the new MMO's still require 100-200 hrs to reach level cap, although ofc you'll always have powerlevelers that manage with tricks and exploits to reach it a lot faster. But hey, if a few persons can run 40km marathon in 2hrs, do you think that time should be taken as an average for how the vast majority will make as a time?
People have been racing to level cap since EQ or maybe even since levels and level cap has been around.
I also disagree with the other poster saying that gamers don't want that anymore right now, sandbox elements, bc there's no such thing as 1 preference for all MMO gamers. I do think though that many MMO gamers that were able to spend massive amounts of time in the earlier MMO's, due to life, work, family and other obligations have far less time to spend than when they were young.
On top of that, there's far more choice now: if people'd have had choice of 50+ MMO's instead of the handful that were there the first years of MMO gaming, then people'd have stuck around in 1 MMO also far shorter and been more prone to switch MMO's.
Can you imagine the "new gamer" trying to figure out NPC factions? They can barely handle 2 player factions. There's a reason that whole list has been dropped.
These are the same kids that got trophies for being on the losing team because "everybody is a winner".
Nope, that whole list hasn't been dropped, this sounds like some sandbox lamentation that's false history revising
Can you imagine the "new gamer" trying to figure out NPC factions? They can barely handle 2 player factions. There's a reason that whole list has been dropped.
These are the same kids that got trophies for being on the losing team because "everybody is a winner".
Nope, that whole list hasn't been dropped, this sounds like some sandbox lamentation that's false history revising
Can you imagine the "new gamer" trying to figure out NPC factions? They can barely handle 2 player factions. There's a reason that whole list has been dropped.
These are the same kids that got trophies for being on the losing team because "everybody is a winner".
Nope, that whole list hasn't been dropped, this sounds like some sandbox lamentation that's false history revising
For example?
Ok, out of the top of my head:
Factions for NPCs/Mobs: don't know exactly what's meant with this point, I can recall EQ having NPC factions, but what other old pre-WoW MMO's did have that, and did all of them have that or just a few? Curious to know. But NPC factions can be found with AoC (Khitai factions), Guild Wars (heck, a whole expansion was extra focused on NPC factions), Aion has factions like the Balaur, Mau and Krall, and TSW has NPC factions like 3 NPC secret societies that aren't the player factions. I'm sure there are more MMO's that feature them, but since I didn't play all MMO's around, I can only speak of MMO's I played.
Damage Types vs. Specific Resistances: don't know what he was referring to. Would like some examples that this was available in all old MMO's and how, then it'd be possible to compare.
Randomness: again, too vague. I know that UO had creature ecologies in beta, but they skipped that for static mob respawn when players slaughtered and annihilated the whole ecology within moments. Examples required what randomness was present in all or most of the old MMO's. I think that GW2's system has quite some randomness in it, just like the random attacks that could happen while traveling in Darkfall Online or AoC were pretty random and surprising too.
Player Housing: EQ and DAoC and I think AC and CoH didn't have that either. So? EQ2 has it, LotrO as well, AoC has player cities, SWTOR has player ships, and GW2 will have player home districts.
Complex Crafting and resources: again, a lot of the old MMO's (EQ, DAoC etc) didn't have that either. Is the crafting encountered in FF14 or LotrO or Aion or some of the other AAA MMO's worse than what EQ or DAoC or CoH had? Hmm. I find that debatable.
Detailed (representative) Inventory Icons: sounds trivial. Examples pls of all the old MMO's that apparently had this.
Item Customization: same point as crafting. What old MMO's had this, which didn't. TSW's system seems pretty intricate.
Large number of classes or skill builds: GW, GW2, EQ2, CO, TSW, all games I could think of right away that have large number of possible builds. Rift uses the mechanic of being able to mix up the 32 available classes with eachother into preferred builds, at least within each archetype.
customizing builds: see former point
Inter-faction interaction: DAoC didn't have that, EQ had no real player factions only races - what old MMO's are we talking about that had strict factions between which players could interact? I'm curious. Anyway, TSW has inter-faction interaction, and I think Darkfall.
RP tools (chat bubbles, sitting in chairs, etc.): sitting in chairs is possible in more MMO's, AoC had some RP utilities which I can recall of the RP events that were being held on the server I was on, LotrO has a number of RP tools. Some of the new MMO's have more RP options than most of the old MMO's.
I think that the original poster of these points was purely looking at like 2, maybe 3 old MMO's ignoring the rest. Maybe those were the only MMO's he played in that time, and because he didn't like the MMO's post-WoW didn't play them, so doesn't know what features they have and what not. In any case, if you want to compare, then you should take into account more than just a few MMO's.
Can you imagine the "new gamer" trying to figure out NPC factions? They can barely handle 2 player factions. There's a reason that whole list has been dropped.
These are the same kids that got trophies for being on the losing team because "everybody is a winner".
Nope, that whole list hasn't been dropped, this sounds like some sandbox lamentation that's false history revising
For example?
Ok, out of the top of my head:
Factions for NPCs/Mobs: don't know exactly what's meant with this point, I can recall EQ having NPC factions, but what other old pre-WoW MMO's did have that, and did all of them have that or just a few? Curious to know. But NPC factions can be found with AoC (Khitai factions), Guild Wars (heck, a whole expansion was extra focused on NPC factions), Aion has factions like the Balaur, Mau and Krall, and TSW has NPC factions like 3 NPC secret societies that aren't the player factions. I'm sure there are more MMO's that feature them, but since I didn't play all MMO's around, I can only speak of MMO's I played.
EQ Greater Faydar, Freeport, etc
Damage Types vs. Specific Resistances: don't know what he was referring to. Would like some examples that this was available in all old MMO's and how, then it'd be possible to compare.
EQ SWG
Randomness: again, too vague. I know that UO had creature ecologies in beta, but they skipped that for static mob respawn when players slaughtered and annihilated the whole ecology within moments. Examples required what randomness was present in all or most of the old MMO's. I think that GW2's system has quite some randomness in it, just like the random attacks that could happen while traveling in Darkfall Online or AoC were pretty random and surprising too.
Player Housing: EQ and DAoC and I think AC and CoH didn't have that either. So? EQ2 has it, LotrO as well, AoC has player cities, SWTOR has player ships, and GW2 will have player home districts.
SWG and AO
Complex Crafting and resources: again, a lot of the old MMO's (EQ, DAoC etc) didn't have that either. Is the crafting encountered in FF14 or LotrO or Aion or some of the other AAA MMO's worse than what EQ or DAoC or CoH had? Hmm. I find that debatable.
EQ and SWG
Detailed (representative) Inventory Icons: sounds trivial. Examples pls of all the old MMO's that apparently had this.
Item Customization: same point as crafting. What old MMO's had this, which didn't. TSW's system seems pretty intricate.
See SWG crafting, AO
Large number of classes or skill builds: GW, GW2, EQ2, CO, TSW, all games I could think of right away that have large number of possible builds. Rift uses the mechanic of being able to mix up the 32 available classes with eachother into preferred builds, at least within each archetype.
EQ SWG AO
customizing builds: see former point
Inter-faction interaction: DAoC didn't have that, EQ had no real player factions only races - what old MMO's are we talking about that had strict factions between which players could interact? I'm curious. Anyway, TSW has inter-faction interaction, and I think Darkfall.
EQ Depending on server rules
RP tools (chat bubbles, sitting in chairs, etc.): sitting in chairs is possible in more MMO's, AoC had some RP utilities which I can recall of the RP events that were being held on the server I was on, LotrO has a number of RP tools. Some of the new MMO's have more RP options than most of the old MMO's.
SWG and AO
I think that the original poster of these points was purely looking at like 2, maybe 3 old MMO's ignoring the rest. Maybe those were the only MMO's he played in that time, and because he didn't like the MMO's post-WoW didn't play them, so doesn't know what features they have and what not. In any case, if you want to compare, then you should take into account more than just a few MMO's.
Factions for NPCs/Mobs: don't know exactly what's meant with this point, I can recall EQ having NPC factions, but what other old pre-WoW MMO's did have that, and did all of them have that or just a few? Curious to know. But NPC factions can be found with AoC (Khitai factions), Guild Wars (heck, a whole expansion was extra focused on NPC factions), Aion has factions like the Balaur, Mau and Krall, and TSW has NPC factions like 3 NPC secret societies that aren't the player factions. I'm sure there are more MMO's that feature them, but since I didn't play all MMO's around, I can only speak of MMO's I played.
EQ Greater Faydar, Freeport, etc
I alrdy mentioned EQ if you noticed, I was asking for examples in the other old MMO's. Anyway, I gave a number of examples of factions in new MMO's.
Damage Types vs. Specific Resistances: don't know what he was referring to. Would like some examples that this was available in all old MMO's and how, then it'd be possible to compare.
EQ SWG
Are you saying those are the only ones of the old MMO's that had it? I'm still not sure what specifically is meant, since damage types and resistances aren't exactly unique in MMO's, old or new.
Player Housing: EQ and DAoC and I think AC and CoH didn't have that either. So? EQ2 has it, LotrO as well, AoC has player cities, SWTOR has player ships, and GW2 will have player home districts.
SWG and AO
Like said, some old MMO's didn't have any, a number of newer MMO's do have them.
Complex Crafting and resources: again, a lot of the old MMO's (EQ, DAoC etc) didn't have that either. Is the crafting encountered in FF14 or LotrO or Aion or some of the other AAA MMO's worse than what EQ or DAoC or CoH had? Hmm. I find that debatable.
EQ and SWG
EQ wasn't really complex at all, certainly not more complex and deep than crafting in a number of newer MMO's. See point I already mentioned. SWG's and UO's crafting was special, we all know that, but the rest of the old MMO's had crafting that wasn't much better than found in other newer MMO's, and sometimes even worse.
Item Customization: same point as crafting. What old MMO's had this, which didn't. TSW's system seems pretty intricate.
See SWG crafting, AO
See my former point
Large number of classes or skill builds: GW, GW2, EQ2, CO, TSW, all games I could think of right away that have large number of possible builds. Rift uses the mechanic of being able to mix up the 32 available classes with eachother into preferred builds, at least within each archetype.
EQ SWG AO
Shrug. Already gave examples of newer MMO's.
Inter-faction interaction: DAoC didn't have that, EQ had no real player factions only races - what old MMO's are we talking about that had strict factions between which players could interact? I'm curious. Anyway, TSW has inter-faction interaction, and I think Darkfall.
EQ Depending on server rules
Is that the only one of the old MMO's? That's not much at all. And when you add specific server rules, then I'm going to add AoC.
I think that the original poster of these points was purely looking at like 2, maybe 3 old MMO's ignoring the rest. Maybe those were the only MMO's he played in that time, and because he didn't like the MMO's post-WoW didn't play them, so doesn't know what features they have and what not. In any case, if you want to compare, then you should take into account more than just a few MMO's.
I think there's little to add at this point to what I already did in my former conclusion: looks like the original poster was only looking very selectively at both old and new MMO's, or maybe didn't have much experience with most old and new MMO's. No matter what the reason, the result is that his list was skewed and flawed.
Factions for NPCs/Mobs: don't know exactly what's meant with this point, I can recall EQ having NPC factions, but what other old pre-WoW MMO's did have that, and did all of them have that or just a few? Curious to know. But NPC factions can be found with AoC (Khitai factions), Guild Wars (heck, a whole expansion was extra focused on NPC factions), Aion has factions like the Balaur, Mau and Krall, and TSW has NPC factions like 3 NPC secret societies that aren't the player factions. I'm sure there are more MMO's that feature them, but since I didn't play all MMO's around, I can only speak of MMO's I played.
EQ Greater Faydar, Freeport, etc
I alrdy mentioned EQ if you noticed, I was asking for examples in the other old MMO's. Anyway, I gave a number of examples of factions in new MMO's.
Damage Types vs. Specific Resistances: don't know what he was referring to. Would like some examples that this was available in all old MMO's and how, then it'd be possible to compare.
EQ SWG
Are you saying those are the only ones of the old MMO's that had it? I'm still not sure what specifically is meant, since damage types and resistances aren't exactly unique in MMO's, old or new.
Player Housing: EQ and DAoC and I think AC and CoH didn't have that either. So? EQ2 has it, LotrO as well, AoC has player cities, SWTOR has player ships, and GW2 will have player home districts.
SWG and AO
Like said, some old MMO's didn't have any, a number of newer MMO's do have them.
Complex Crafting and resources: again, a lot of the old MMO's (EQ, DAoC etc) didn't have that either. Is the crafting encountered in FF14 or LotrO or Aion or some of the other AAA MMO's worse than what EQ or DAoC or CoH had? Hmm. I find that debatable.
EQ and SWG
EQ wasn't really complex at all, certainly not more complex and deep than crafting in a number of newer MMO's. See point I already mentioned. SWG's and UO's crafting was special, we all know that, but the rest of the old MMO's had crafting that wasn't much better than found in other newer MMO's, and sometimes even worse.
Item Customization: same point as crafting. What old MMO's had this, which didn't. TSW's system seems pretty intricate.
See SWG crafting, AO
See my former point
Large number of classes or skill builds: GW, GW2, EQ2, CO, TSW, all games I could think of right away that have large number of possible builds. Rift uses the mechanic of being able to mix up the 32 available classes with eachother into preferred builds, at least within each archetype.
EQ SWG AO
Shrug. Already gave examples of newer MMO's.
Inter-faction interaction: DAoC didn't have that, EQ had no real player factions only races - what old MMO's are we talking about that had strict factions between which players could interact? I'm curious. Anyway, TSW has inter-faction interaction, and I think Darkfall.
EQ Depending on server rules
Is that the only one of the old MMO's? That's not much at all. And when you add specific server rules, then I'm going to add AoC.
I think that the original poster of these points was purely looking at like 2, maybe 3 old MMO's ignoring the rest. Maybe those were the only MMO's he played in that time, and because he didn't like the MMO's post-WoW didn't play them, so doesn't know what features they have and what not. In any case, if you want to compare, then you should take into account more than just a few MMO's.
I think there's little to add at this point to what I already did in my former conclusion: looks like the original poster was only looking very selectively at both old and new MMO's, or maybe didn't have much experience with most old and new MMO's. No matter what the reason, the result is that his list was skewed and flawed.
Nah, you made it sound as if those things didn't exist and that we were dreaming of the days that never were.
I'll let someone else explain the differences in the roles of factions between EQ and ..whatever new game is out. Or building a character based around damage type, or crafting armor based around resistence type, or how interactions with factions resulted with KOS, or ignored, or couldn't use shops while the rest of your group wasn't effected at all. etc etc.
The newer games you are boasting about does everything in that list half-assed. And if they were any good, they would retain a player-base longer than x months (except WoW).
I'll let someone else explain the differences in the roles of factions between EQ and ..whatever new game is out. Or building a character based around damage type, or crafting armor based around resistence type, or how interactions with factions resulted with KOS, or ignored, or couldn't use shops while the rest of your group wasn't effected at all. etc etc....
Ah, I remember those days. Grinding Qeynos faction so my Dark Elf was amiable with them for the only reason that I liked Qeynos. Blackburrow and the servants of Bertoxulous really hated me back then, heh.
Nah, you made it sound as if those things didn't exist and that we were dreaming of the days that never were.
I'll let someone else explain the differences in the roles of factions between EQ and ..whatever new game is out. Or building a character based around damage type, or crafting armor based around resistence type, or how interactions with factions resulted with KOS, or ignored, or couldn't use shops while the rest of your group wasn't effected at all. etc etc.
The newer games you are boasting about does everything in that list half-assed. And if they were any good, they would retain a player-base longer than x months (except WoW).
Wrong. I never said that those things didn't exist, read what I posted, I said that from what I recall those features weren't dominant and present in all old MMO's or even the majority of them, nor were they exclusive to only the old MMO's.
I played EQ and some of those other old MMO's, and also a number of newer MMO's: I can't recall EQ's faction system being used in the other old MMO's which is kinda lame if that's being used as THE example that old MMO's had that new MMO's haven't, because then the other old MMO's would flunk at that aspect too.
Other newer MMO's used NPC factions in ways that the older MMO's didn't, if you consider those half-assed even without knowing how those new MMO's did it, then most of the other old MMO's excluding EQ did it full-assed, since they have nothing anywhere near EQ's faction system.
Same with the other points: if you consider the implementation of those features half-assed in other newer MMO's - merely bc you're one of those people apparently that needs to feel that all new MMO's suck and all old MMO's were heaven and bliss - then other old MMO's were even complete, total failures in those areas. EQ and DAoC failed enormously at player housing and crafting, as good as all old MMO's minus EQ failed big time at NPC factions, DAoC and UO failed at faction interaction etc.
But hey, good luck with dreaming about the old MMO's, I'll not be the person that wants to withhold you from that; hope you have any fun and luck in MMO's the upcoming years since it seems you'll need it.
Trinity has nothing to do with predictable combat mechanics. TERA has it, and i'm pretty sure that if you try to stand still you're going to die. TSW also focuses on movement. And, because it's skill besed, the veriety of encounters can be even greater, like the final Polaris boss where you can't use a tank. Also, many mobs and bosses in GW2 where mostly "dodge, dogde, dodge, attack, attack, dodge, rinse and repeat"However, that obviously doens't count for all, of not most, of it's encounters. Every AI becomes predictable after a while. Just start to learn the patterns of it's attacks, timing, etc. MMORPG have a far harder time with them simply because in a SP, you play it, finish it, and then, if you start all over, it becomes ALOT easier.
I've seen people who have been used to conventional tank 'n' spank strategy get confused when they're playing Guild Wars 1 - a game without a conventional tank. There is no way to manipulate aggro in that game, so the players in question described it as being "chaotic" and unpredictable. One player decided that he didn't like it because it didn't have the strict trinity.
This and many years of gaming makes me think that trinity makes combat easier. You'd have to bring pretty strong evidence to contrary to make me change my mind.
Every combat in a trinity game goes along the same formula: the tank holds aggro and takes hits, the healer keeps the tank from dying, DPS does damage. There is very little change. Few games add minor party roles such as buffer and controller etc. and many add secondary roles, but all of them rely on the same trinity backbone. It is predictable, it is arcaic, it has no connection to real combat and I've grown bored with it.
Trinity combat isn't inherently any easier, but it depends on how the fights themselves are setup. It's all about timing, and learning the 'dance'. This can be as hard or as easy as the developer makes it.
Personally, I prefer the non-trinity combat. I like the chaos. It is just more fun.
Additionally, it doesn't matter to you and to how you play your role what other classes are filling the other slots.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Can you imagine the "new gamer" trying to figure out NPC factions? They can barely handle 2 player factions. There's a reason that whole list has been dropped.
These are the same kids that got trophies for being on the losing team because "everybody is a winner".
Nope, that whole list hasn't been dropped, this sounds like some sandbox lamentation that's false history revising
For example?
Ok, out of the top of my head:
Factions for NPCs/Mobs: don't know exactly what's meant with this point
Damage Types vs. Specific Resistances: don't know what he was referring to.
Randomness: again, too vague.
Player Housing: So?
Complex Crafting and resources: Hmm. I find that debatable.
Item Customization: What old MMO's had this, which didn't.
Large number of classes or skill builds: all games I could think of right away that have large number of possible builds.
customizing builds: see former point
Inter-faction interaction: what old MMO's are we talking about that had strict factions between which players could interact? I'm curious. Anyway, TSW has inter-faction interaction, and I think Darkfall.
RP tools (chat bubbles, sitting in chairs, etc.): sitting in chairs is possible in more MMO's
I think that the original poster of these points was purely looking at like 2, maybe 3 old MMO's ignoring the rest. Maybe those were the only MMO's he played in that time, and because he didn't like the MMO's post-WoW didn't play them, so doesn't know what features they have and what not. In any case, if you want to compare, then you should take into account more than just a few MMO's.
Nice rebuttal. I particularly like the part at the end where you call me a n00b from days of yore. Thanks for the laugh.
Can you imagine the "new gamer" trying to figure out NPC factions? They can barely handle 2 player factions. There's a reason that whole list has been dropped.
These are the same kids that got trophies for being on the losing team because "everybody is a winner".
Nope, that whole list hasn't been dropped, this sounds like some sandbox lamentation that's false history revising
For example?
Ok, out of the top of my head:
Factions for NPCs/Mobs: don't know exactly what's meant with this point
Damage Types vs. Specific Resistances: don't know what he was referring to.
Randomness: again, too vague.
Player Housing: So?
Complex Crafting and resources: Hmm. I find that debatable.
Item Customization: What old MMO's had this, which didn't.
Large number of classes or skill builds: all games I could think of right away that have large number of possible builds.
customizing builds: see former point
Inter-faction interaction: what old MMO's are we talking about that had strict factions between which players could interact? I'm curious. Anyway, TSW has inter-faction interaction, and I think Darkfall.
RP tools (chat bubbles, sitting in chairs, etc.): sitting in chairs is possible in more MMO's
I think that the original poster of these points was purely looking at like 2, maybe 3 old MMO's ignoring the rest. Maybe those were the only MMO's he played in that time, and because he didn't like the MMO's post-WoW didn't play them, so doesn't know what features they have and what not. In any case, if you want to compare, then you should take into account more than just a few MMO's.
Nice rebuttal. I particularly like the part at the end where you call me a n00b from days of yore. Thanks for the laugh.
? Well, good for you that you were amused. I don't recall saying that you were a noob, but I did question that you regarded the old and new MMO's entirely fair, since the feature examples you gave often weren't present in all or even the majority of the old MMO's, and since a number of those features also could be found in newer MMO's, to a higher degree even than in a lot of the old MMO's.
I thought that point was clear. Like said, I'd have liked if you elaborated more upon the questions I posted, but if you don't feel like it, well, that's your good right of course
Comments
I read it, mostly because my attention span, unlike a lot of people, is longer than that of the average gnat. I don't do "TLDR" becuause most of the time you can't summarize multiple paragraphs in two sentences.
I sympathize with your plight Crunchy, as I share it. Every new MMORPG that comes out claims to "revolutionize the genre", when it's all, once again just a thinly veiled sharade, which is for all intents and purposes identical to its predecesors.
A bit of a history lesson, which I think is lost on the majority of newer MMORPG players. Prior to WOW, games had what was called player interdependency, wherein there were no classes. Because the games relied on skills rather than classes, it allowed players more freedom in what they chose to do with their characters. Along with that, it reinforced the community because the player interdependencies fostered communication with each other. For instance, a player who specialized in combat had to communicate with an armorsmith or a weaponsmith to get the gear he needed, and he also had to communicate with a doctor or a medic to procure buffs. Also crafting professions had to communicate with the combat professions in order to acquire materials being that they had less combat proficiencies. The point being, that this situation reinforced commuication between players, and thus contributed to the community. Which I always thought was the point of MMORPGs.
Sadly though, today most players simply can't be bothered with having to communicate with other players in this way, and as such the communities of these games suffer greatly because of it. I think this has something to do with the Instant Gratification mentality of people today. Something for nothing, or with as little effort as possible. Honestly, the harder you work to achieve something, the more you will respect the achievement, although that experience should be enjoyable in the context of an MMORPG.
I can't play any of these newer games for more than a month or two. They are either boring or WOW clones. I'd rather play WOW. Except, I have only played WOW a couple of times just to see what all the talk was about. It's ok. Better than the copies at least.
I love and miss sandbox games. But, I don't think I can get back into one and play it the way I use to play sandboxes. The best example of this is EVE. That game is my ideal game. However, I just no longer have the time to play it the way I want to play it.
A game use to hold my attention for a year, easily. Some for way more than that. Now? A month. Really? The most I can hope for is a full subscription time? MMOs are getting worse with each release, not better.
These are looking to be my final days for video games. I've been wanting to get back into lifting weights again since I just finished college. Except, I have a problem. I'm freaking addicted to video games and it's hard to get into my weight-lifting routine and the discipline that comes with it.
However, when I overcome this problem, I'm gone for good.
Why is this a problem? Are you running out of games to play? If you play a game for 2 months, you only need 6 a year. There are way more than 6 good games, particularly if you play SP games too.
Finding a game to play that lasts me a month is not the problem. The problem is that I am addicted to a hobby that is getting progressively worse.
Playing 6 games per year? Why not one? I've commited myself to one game for years at a time. Now games are so bad you have to play 6 different ones per year? Or worse, subbed to 2-3 games at the same time. This is not normal.
The only reason that I have tried so many games is for a chance that maybe, just maybe, something might hold my interest. They never do. Yet, I try them anyways....like a dumbass.
Another thing I'd like to point out about themeparks is that I question why they even bother with creating a world.
Seriously, why bother?
WOW for example, you stand in Org waiting for dungeon finder to pop, which warps you to the entrance and back to Org when done. Or fly past everything and everyone on a mount.
No need to talk to others, no need to go out into the world at all. Everything you need is in an auction house. Apply same rule to PVP.
I remember a time when people had to plan a dungeon raid. Run ON FOOT across the world fighting along the way to a dungeon to kill a boss that only spawns every 2 days just for a sword drop, not tokens or random loot.
Wait, it gets better. Other players were there too and your group had to kill their group. Either at the dungeon, in the dungeon, hell, in the middle of the woods in route to the dungeon.
This stuff use to be a big deal.
Sadly I agree with those stating that it's not the games so much as the gamers. Yes I will agree to an extent that the genre has been a stagnant and murky pool of dissapointment for awhile now...
However, I think as a whole gamers are no longer looking for that one long term game. I think we think we're looking for that, but in truth we're not. We're looking for the next shiny. Our Genre used to consist of very few options and over the years it went from few to enough to plentiful and now to holy crap I can't even keep track of how many new ones are coming out.
I think the genre is about the short term now. Retention is nigh impossible for any new games lately. Big box sales, some hype before launch a few months of working thru the content and then onto the next big hyped game. Some suggest adding sandbox elements to help maintain retention but that won't work in my opinion. Gamers in the genre no longer desire such things. We'll look at a sandbox element and scoff and turn our noses up at it saying it's an obvious time sink and not worth the effort to get X or do Y.
It's seen time and time again when a game puts up something even remotely difficult in a game otherwise full themepark. People complain or flat out avoid the difficult or time consuming content for the easier or faster content. That's who we are as gamers now. We don't want EQ even tho we remember it fondly, we don't want UO even tho we loved it then, we certainly wouldn't love it now.
It all depends on what you want out of the game that you are paying a monthly fee to play. If you want to play WoW by doing little else than sitting AFK in Orgrimmar until a dungeon pops, you should be allowed to do so, but not everyone finds that style of play appealing. For those, there's questing in the open world while waiting for a dungeon to pop.
For the flying mounts, some want them for the sole purpose of AFKing as they fly across the continent; however, for people who enjoy exploration, flying mounts can actually increase one's ability to explore. Players have acccess to hard to reach areas that were simply impossible to reach before.As for the auction house, I can't say that everything every player needs is at the auction house. The best gear in most games does not come from the auction house. A player has to actually join a guild and secure a spot in a raid core. Not all gems or enchants that a player needs can be found at any given time on the AH, so the players must seek our gemcrafters who will provide their services. That said, if players want to gear their toons using simply what they find on the AH, they should have the option to do so if they want.
Lastly, not everyone played EverQuest or the like on a PvP server. For a lot of people, claiming a contested mob was a race against time, and it was a real bummer to clear you way to a raid boss only to find out another raid is about to kill the same mob. Said mob would often not spawn again for at least 24 hours, and not even getting a chance to down the boss you just spent hours organizing the raid for and fighting trash is a serious waste of time and a hallmark of oldschool MMORPGs best left in the past.
Forgive me if this has already been mentioned (I didn't read the full 12 pages yet), but my personal opinion holds that a large part of the problem stems from developers trying to take a queue from WoW and abusing the hell out of Pavlovian psychology tricks at the expensive of engaging gameplay. Such setups can easily create addiction, but fail miserably when it comes to enjoyment and engagement.
Unfortunately, addicts are exactly what these companies want, as they are stable sources of income.
Because the new gamers think that MMOs are console games that should be beaten in a few weeks, or 52 hours like SWTOR.
No MMO should be "beaten".
OK, but easier is boring. I have to wonder about people who brag about achievements anymore. What exactly have those people achieved that the rest of the server has not?
Exploration, is now hitting auto-run on your flying mount and going out for a smoke.
Some casualties of the newer game climate:
Factions for NPCs/Mobs
Damage Types vs. Specific Resistances
Randomness
Player Housing
Complex Crafting and resources
Detailed (representative) Inventory Icons
Item Customization
Large number of classes or skill builds
customizing builds
Inter-faction interaction
RP tools (chat bubbles, sitting in chairs, etc.)
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
Can you imagine the "new gamer" trying to figure out NPC factions? They can barely handle 2 player factions. There's a reason that whole list has been dropped.
These are the same kids that got trophies for being on the losing team because "everybody is a winner".
Hmm. I found the listing kinda dubious, for the following reasons: the old MMO's didn't have all those points neither, and there are quite some new MMO's that also have most of those features.
If you mean with 'beaten' racing to level cap, then sure, there's a number of gamers that might think like that but I doubt whether the majority think like that. Besides, even the new MMO's still require 100-200 hrs to reach level cap, although ofc you'll always have powerlevelers that manage with tricks and exploits to reach it a lot faster. But hey, if a few persons can run 40km marathon in 2hrs, do you think that time should be taken as an average for how the vast majority will make as a time?
People have been racing to level cap since EQ or maybe even since levels and level cap has been around.
I also disagree with the other poster saying that gamers don't want that anymore right now, sandbox elements, bc there's no such thing as 1 preference for all MMO gamers. I do think though that many MMO gamers that were able to spend massive amounts of time in the earlier MMO's, due to life, work, family and other obligations have far less time to spend than when they were young.
On top of that, there's far more choice now: if people'd have had choice of 50+ MMO's instead of the handful that were there the first years of MMO gaming, then people'd have stuck around in 1 MMO also far shorter and been more prone to switch MMO's.
Nope, that whole list hasn't been dropped, this sounds like some sandbox lamentation that's false history revising
For example?
Ok, out of the top of my head:
Factions for NPCs/Mobs: don't know exactly what's meant with this point, I can recall EQ having NPC factions, but what other old pre-WoW MMO's did have that, and did all of them have that or just a few? Curious to know. But NPC factions can be found with AoC (Khitai factions), Guild Wars (heck, a whole expansion was extra focused on NPC factions), Aion has factions like the Balaur, Mau and Krall, and TSW has NPC factions like 3 NPC secret societies that aren't the player factions. I'm sure there are more MMO's that feature them, but since I didn't play all MMO's around, I can only speak of MMO's I played.
Damage Types vs. Specific Resistances: don't know what he was referring to. Would like some examples that this was available in all old MMO's and how, then it'd be possible to compare.
Randomness: again, too vague. I know that UO had creature ecologies in beta, but they skipped that for static mob respawn when players slaughtered and annihilated the whole ecology within moments. Examples required what randomness was present in all or most of the old MMO's. I think that GW2's system has quite some randomness in it, just like the random attacks that could happen while traveling in Darkfall Online or AoC were pretty random and surprising too.
Player Housing: EQ and DAoC and I think AC and CoH didn't have that either. So? EQ2 has it, LotrO as well, AoC has player cities, SWTOR has player ships, and GW2 will have player home districts.
Complex Crafting and resources: again, a lot of the old MMO's (EQ, DAoC etc) didn't have that either. Is the crafting encountered in FF14 or LotrO or Aion or some of the other AAA MMO's worse than what EQ or DAoC or CoH had? Hmm. I find that debatable.
Detailed (representative) Inventory Icons: sounds trivial. Examples pls of all the old MMO's that apparently had this.
Item Customization: same point as crafting. What old MMO's had this, which didn't. TSW's system seems pretty intricate.
Large number of classes or skill builds: GW, GW2, EQ2, CO, TSW, all games I could think of right away that have large number of possible builds. Rift uses the mechanic of being able to mix up the 32 available classes with eachother into preferred builds, at least within each archetype.
customizing builds: see former point
Inter-faction interaction: DAoC didn't have that, EQ had no real player factions only races - what old MMO's are we talking about that had strict factions between which players could interact? I'm curious. Anyway, TSW has inter-faction interaction, and I think Darkfall.
RP tools (chat bubbles, sitting in chairs, etc.): sitting in chairs is possible in more MMO's, AoC had some RP utilities which I can recall of the RP events that were being held on the server I was on, LotrO has a number of RP tools. Some of the new MMO's have more RP options than most of the old MMO's.
I think that the original poster of these points was purely looking at like 2, maybe 3 old MMO's ignoring the rest. Maybe those were the only MMO's he played in that time, and because he didn't like the MMO's post-WoW didn't play them, so doesn't know what features they have and what not. In any case, if you want to compare, then you should take into account more than just a few MMO's.
I think there's little to add at this point to what I already did in my former conclusion: looks like the original poster was only looking very selectively at both old and new MMO's, or maybe didn't have much experience with most old and new MMO's. No matter what the reason, the result is that his list was skewed and flawed.
Nah, you made it sound as if those things didn't exist and that we were dreaming of the days that never were.
I'll let someone else explain the differences in the roles of factions between EQ and ..whatever new game is out. Or building a character based around damage type, or crafting armor based around resistence type, or how interactions with factions resulted with KOS, or ignored, or couldn't use shops while the rest of your group wasn't effected at all. etc etc.
The newer games you are boasting about does everything in that list half-assed. And if they were any good, they would retain a player-base longer than x months (except WoW).
Ah, I remember those days. Grinding Qeynos faction so my Dark Elf was amiable with them for the only reason that I liked Qeynos. Blackburrow and the servants of Bertoxulous really hated me back then, heh.
Wrong. I never said that those things didn't exist, read what I posted, I said that from what I recall those features weren't dominant and present in all old MMO's or even the majority of them, nor were they exclusive to only the old MMO's.
I played EQ and some of those other old MMO's, and also a number of newer MMO's: I can't recall EQ's faction system being used in the other old MMO's which is kinda lame if that's being used as THE example that old MMO's had that new MMO's haven't, because then the other old MMO's would flunk at that aspect too.
Other newer MMO's used NPC factions in ways that the older MMO's didn't, if you consider those half-assed even without knowing how those new MMO's did it, then most of the other old MMO's excluding EQ did it full-assed, since they have nothing anywhere near EQ's faction system.
Same with the other points: if you consider the implementation of those features half-assed in other newer MMO's - merely bc you're one of those people apparently that needs to feel that all new MMO's suck and all old MMO's were heaven and bliss - then other old MMO's were even complete, total failures in those areas. EQ and DAoC failed enormously at player housing and crafting, as good as all old MMO's minus EQ failed big time at NPC factions, DAoC and UO failed at faction interaction etc.
But hey, good luck with dreaming about the old MMO's, I'll not be the person that wants to withhold you from that; hope you have any fun and luck in MMO's the upcoming years since it seems you'll need it.
Additionally, it doesn't matter to you and to how you play your role what other classes are filling the other slots.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Nice rebuttal. I particularly like the part at the end where you call me a n00b from days of yore. Thanks for the laugh.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
? Well, good for you that you were amused. I don't recall saying that you were a noob, but I did question that you regarded the old and new MMO's entirely fair, since the feature examples you gave often weren't present in all or even the majority of the old MMO's, and since a number of those features also could be found in newer MMO's, to a higher degree even than in a lot of the old MMO's.
I thought that point was clear. Like said, I'd have liked if you elaborated more upon the questions I posted, but if you don't feel like it, well, that's your good right of course
double post