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SW:TOR - Some lessons learned.

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  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342


    Originally posted by skydiver12The base, the frame of the game is lacking any freedom and deepth an MMO needs.
    Too much rails and only one theme in the park.

    SWTOR is not and was not meant to be SWG 2.0, nor it was meant to be a sandbox either.

    SWTOR was meant as WoW-like game experience with strong emphasis on story. Which is exactly what the game is.


    Some people seem to missed the memo, apparently you are one of them.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403
    Originally posted by thubub

    So what can be learned from the massive failure of SW:TOR. 

     

    First "we" (the people for whom learning lessons from this "massive failure" actually matters) must first acknowledge the problems.

    Some producers need to attend 12-step programs.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • superniceguysuperniceguy Member UncommonPosts: 2,278
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by skydiver12

     

    The base, the frame of the game is lacking any freedom and deepth an MMO needs.
    Too much rails and only one theme in the park.


     

    SWTOR is not and was not meant to be SWG 2.0, nor it was meant to be a sandbox either.

    SWTOR was meant as WoW-like game experience with strong emphasis on story. Which is exactly what the game is.


    Some people seem to missed the memo, apparently you are one of them.


    Where does skydiver mention SWG? It was no where in any of his post you edited down either.

    WOW and LOTRO has more freedom and depth than SWTOR

  • mikahrmikahr Member Posts: 1,066
    Originally posted by Quicksand

    *Edit*

    Just in case I typed something that reads different to everyone else than it does to me, I don't claim to know anything about TOR, I base everything on the numbers released during preordering only (1.5 mil) and the price of a standard edition (not counting any delux or CE) of $59 Nothing more.

     

    I think that the way you think and do analysis would fit right into EA/BW!

    You should applay for a job there in finance departement!

    Originally posted by mcburly

    LOL, I knew someone was gonna come out and call me a liar. Its all good though, I have no reason to lie on these boards. take it for what it is. You dont have to believe me

    You know we all believe you. I mean who wouldnt!

    (reminds me of Andy Warhol)

    Originally posted by Icewhite

    First "we" (the people for whom learning lessons from this "massive failure" actually matters) must first acknowledge the problems.

    Some producers need to attend 12-step programs.

    One thing that amazes me is how blind devs/companies can be. The signs are all over.

    Like in total denial.

    Funniest was lead dev on EQ2 who proclaimed EQ2 "best game evah" and then proceeded to wonder why noone wants to play it (even for free now, statement was from when it was about to go free to play and reasons why, one of that there was little over 500k accounts made in EQ2 LIFTIME untill then)

  • ignore_meignore_me Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 1,987
    Originally posted by mcburly
    Originally posted by Bardus

    To the guy that says "I recently befriended someone who, lets just say, knows the inside scoop", I'm looking for a horse hockey emote, can anyone direct me to a horse hockey emote? Seriously dude, do you take us for that much fools?

    LOL, I knew someone was gonna come out and call me a liar. Its all good though, I have no reason to lie on these boards. take it for what it is. You dont have to believe me

    I actually don't find that hard to believe. There is still a lot of subs and money there at this point. The inside attitude would tend to be a positive one, however, so there needs to be some accounting for that. The trajectory from here is really the question, because they can't sustain continued losses on this magnitude.

    Where SWTOR is a failure though, in my opinion, is in its design. The evidence of this is pretty solid. Endgame, lack of content diversity, PvP badness causing grief for the title.

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • ktanner3ktanner3 Member UncommonPosts: 4,063
    Originally posted by Sora2810

    1. I agree with the LFG mechanic. Should have been in at launch. I stopped playing because of the lack of people LFG in lower-levels for running alts. I leveled a full character to 50 having never done a FP. I didn't want to stand in the hub and play the chat log, a lot of others felt the same way.

    2. The hero engine is actually a pretty good one. Unfortunatly, BW didn't optimize it right and PC beasts were getting horrible framerate issues with graphics turned down.

    3. The game should have had more time to 'bake'. It seemed very rushed and wasn't polished at all. Ilum was a major failure, and could have been fixed if more testing would have been done. 

    4. The game launched with very 'limited' and 'outdated' features. The legacy system had a place holder graphic, the LFG mechanic was a toggle in the /who list. You couldn't queue for certain WZ's. It just felt.. dated. For a game with tons of money pushed into it, it felt like it should have been out in the early 2000's.

     

    Down the road, I think TOR will lose subs and stablize at 700k subs. After that point, if EA is still going to put a focus on them, then the game will become better, get more features, and possibly grab more subscribers. They just have to work up from the bottom and stay the underdog until they improve. TOR's not a bad game, it has potential, it's just not ready yet. 

    I agree that the LFG mechanic should have been in from the beginning. For some reason there was a LOT of posters making the claim that it destroys communities on servers, but from what I'm seeing in game without one  I fail to see how that argument holds. There's a reason the mechanic was put in MMOs in the first place.

    Currently Playing: World of Warcraft

  • WickedjellyWickedjelly Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 4,990
    Originally posted by ktanner3

    I agree that the LFG mechanic should have been in from the beginning. For some reason there was a LOT of posters making the claim that it destroys communities on servers, but from what I'm seeing in game without one  I fail to see how that argument holds. There's a reason the mechanic was put in MMOs in the first place.

     Really is a shame it wasn't. Part of the problem is some don't want to hear it because they assume it has to be like WoW and be an insta port to dungeon mechanic. Others are lucky to be on extermely populated server, in a good guild, or play with enough friends that grouping is easy for them so in their ignorance they squash the concept being needed because they are incapable of seeing past their own experience. Then there are the devs that frankly most seem to see it as an afterthought that isn't needed initially. So they either add a halfassed one or none at all and then have to scramble afterwards when they realize people actually end up quitting over grouping woes. Simply makes no sense but you see it time and time again with these companies. So sick and tired of them making the same mishaps over and over again.

    There were a few of those on this forum and many more on their on forums. All they ended up doing with that line of thnking was impair the game and cause difficulty for their fellow gamers. But that's fine. At the end of the day the brunt of the fault is on the company anyways. Besides, if they would have done a better job with server and population management it wouldn't have been as bad for some as it was.

    1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

    2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

    3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  • JYCowboyJYCowboy Member UncommonPosts: 652
    Originally posted by QuicklyScott

    -op

    The main thing I have learned from SWTOR is that no company is too big to fail.  I was stupid enough to think that because it was being made by Bioware it would be good.  Looking back, that is such a moronic stance, I'm kind of ashamed.  I guess this sort of thing makes you more critical of developers which is only good.

    Don't be ashamed.  Many jumped at this game for BW past success.  You have to understand, however, BW today is not the company that made Baldur's Gate and other hits.  If I read it correctly, there was a purge of devs just before it was announced that EA was buying BW.  This coupled with the toxic business culture at EA bleeding into BW has forever changed the beloved maker of fine games.  Just take note of the many hands Atari has gone through and you can see what I mean.

  • iceman00iceman00 Member Posts: 1,363
    Originally posted by hipiap
    Originally posted by GreenHell

    I liked your post OP there are a few things I would add that may or may not be about ToR but they apply for all MMOs

    Think twice about using a popular IP that you will never have full control over.

     

    1.  Have a plan for what direction you would like to see the game take in the next year or two. Do not change the basic fundamantals of your game so that you can cash in on whatever may be hot at that time.

    2.  Do not just listen to the people who play your game 50+ hours a week. In fact those are the people I would listen to the least. They burn through content way to fast and are never happy.

    3.  Treat your game like it is a business, not you or your staffs personal playground. No one is happy when your people give other players an advantage. 

    4.  Launch your games smaller and more complete. We don't need promises of all these glorious things you will have at launch just to find that 90% of them are not there or do not work. Add things as you go. Make sure the content that you add is functioning and polished.

    5.  Do not lie to your customers. Do not treat us like we are just cash cows to be milked until we are dry.

     

     

    Number 2 is the most important point in my opinion.

     

    Power Gamers are not whom you should hang your game on.  You want to cheris and nurture and apease the Casual Gamers that are going to be in your MMO for years at a time...not just for a month when a new patch or expansion hits.

     

    A good example of that stems from my experiences in SW:G.....When Jedi was added and the Hologrind started in 2003...the Power gamers zoomed through and started their forum campaigns against any and all other Professions that had a chance against them in PvP and screamed for Nerfs on every little thing...while the Casual players watched as the Developers bent over backwards to 'fix' professions that were not actually broken and then by the way ignored issues with professions that had broken or missing content.

     

    It depends on what you are doing.  If you are discussing balance issues such as "how can we make this dungeon harder or more tactical" or "what is OP in pvp" you most certainly do want to listen to the general audience of people who play 50 hours a week doing those things.  They see scenarios the casual base just won't see.

    Yet if you want to ask "how do we broaden our appeal" or how various features of the game poll, then you might want to ask those who aren't as vocal or play as much.

    The idea that "casual" gamers in todays MMO environment are going to be the ones who are around for years over "hardcore" at a time I also find a little hard to believe.  Anyone who makes that assumption when designing an MMO deserves to fail.

  • DrakxiiDrakxii Member Posts: 594
    Originally posted by iceman00
    Originally posted by hipiap
    Originally posted by GreenHell

    I liked your post OP there are a few things I would add that may or may not be about ToR but they apply for all MMOs

    Think twice about using a popular IP that you will never have full control over.

     

    1.  Have a plan for what direction you would like to see the game take in the next year or two. Do not change the basic fundamantals of your game so that you can cash in on whatever may be hot at that time.

    2.  Do not just listen to the people who play your game 50+ hours a week. In fact those are the people I would listen to the least. They burn through content way to fast and are never happy.

    3.  Treat your game like it is a business, not you or your staffs personal playground. No one is happy when your people give other players an advantage. 

    4.  Launch your games smaller and more complete. We don't need promises of all these glorious things you will have at launch just to find that 90% of them are not there or do not work. Add things as you go. Make sure the content that you add is functioning and polished.

    5.  Do not lie to your customers. Do not treat us like we are just cash cows to be milked until we are dry.

     

     

    Number 2 is the most important point in my opinion.

     

    Power Gamers are not whom you should hang your game on.  You want to cheris and nurture and apease the Casual Gamers that are going to be in your MMO for years at a time...not just for a month when a new patch or expansion hits.

     

    A good example of that stems from my experiences in SW:G.....When Jedi was added and the Hologrind started in 2003...the Power gamers zoomed through and started their forum campaigns against any and all other Professions that had a chance against them in PvP and screamed for Nerfs on every little thing...while the Casual players watched as the Developers bent over backwards to 'fix' professions that were not actually broken and then by the way ignored issues with professions that had broken or missing content.

     

    It depends on what you are doing.  If you are discussing balance issues such as "how can we make this dungeon harder or more tactical" or "what is OP in pvp" you most certainly do want to listen to the general audience of people who play 50 hours a week doing those things.  They see scenarios the casual base just won't see.

    Yet if you want to ask "how do we broaden our appeal" or how various features of the game poll, then you might want to ask those who aren't as vocal or play as much.

    The idea that "casual" gamers in todays MMO environment are going to be the ones who are around for years over "hardcore" at a time I also find a little hard to believe.  Anyone who makes that assumption when designing an MMO deserves to fail.

    I would have to agree with the Iceman, but also the guy that plays you game 30+ hours a week is the same guy that going to tell his buddies if a game sucks or not and he is also the guy thats going to go fourm and tell other people if your game sucks or not.  You need to keep these poeple happy because if they are happy they will grow your game if they are not they will kill it.

    I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.

  • MosesZDMosesZD Member UncommonPosts: 1,361
    Originally posted by Quicksand
    Originally posted by MosesZD
    Originally posted by Quicksand
    Originally posted by mcburly
    Originally posted by Quicksand
    Originally posted by thubub

    So what can be learned from the massive failure of SW:TOR.  

     

     

    I was unable to continue taking the post serious after that line.

     

    Didn't meet expectations? maybe

    You don't like it? Sure

    Maybe not even any good...

     

    But MASSIVE Failure? just too funny.

    dont ya know? 98% of the people that hang out on this site want this game to fail hard.

    Yeah I know, just cracks me up some times.

     

    It is funny though...

     

    Lets say they only sold 1.5 mil copies of the game (pretty sure they sold more than that in pre sales alone) but we'll just stick with 1.5 mil

     

    At $59 a copy, they made $88.5 mil from box sales alone (again, thats if they only sold 1.5 mil copies, they sold a whole lot more)

     

    if only half of them subbed for one month, thats another $11.3 mil roughly (more than half subbed if they only lost 400k subs as posted by all the haters)

     

    That puts a rock bottom price brought in the very first month at $99.8 mil

     

    If memory serves (I may be wrong) It was widely published that the game cost $100 mil to make

     

    So they need to make another $200k to break even....

     

    Yeah Massive Failure

    Ah.  You're obviously not an accountant.   I am. 

     

    So, first, 67% of the units were through retail distribution, not Origin.  Fifty-percent of that money went to the retailer.   Of the other one-third, they got all that money at retail.  But they dont' get to keep it all.    Then there's Lucas Arts, the PUBLISHER  of the game.   They take a 30% royalty off the top.   So, they didn't get anything close to what you project.    

     

    Then there's costs.    The biggest line-item cost was marketing and the $35 million they dropped in the advertising campaign.    Then there are all those discs, etc., for the retail box.  That's $5 a pop just to press and jewel-case them.    Then you have to distribute them which is another $2 a box.

     

    Then the direct costs to run the game.  Fully-weighted server costs are 30% of revenue.    Then there's over-head, customer service, bug-patches, on-going programming, beneifits, payroll taxes, rent, utilities, legal, etc, etc., etc.

     

    And after all this, they've got to recoup a $250 million (not $100 million) investment.

     

    As an accountant, I sat down one day and figured out just how many units they'd need to sell with a 5% churn rate to break even on this game over the next two years.   It was over 6 million units assuming a 'best case' 5% churn rate.

     

    SWTOR has a 20%+ churn rate and sales are less than 50K a month now and declining every week with a total of  2.3 million copies to date and only 500K+ (most of which were in January) for 2012.     The subs are bleeding like crazy and the active log-in play-base is 1/6th of what  it was in Janaury.    The stable, long term population projects to under 300K now in the best-case.  In the worst...   100K maybe... 

     

    Even worse, they cannot leave the game as it is and have even a remote chance of recouping the investment.  It needs at least another $50 million worth of work (a typical large MMO expansion cost).   

     

    So, yeah, failure.  

    You try tossing out exact numbers and %'s in order to make it look like you really know what your talking about instead of generalizing them like I did to illistrate a point. So lets look into those numbers of yours

     

    Point 1.  67% of the units: You have no idea EXACTLY what % were box sales vs DD. So, you're making uninformed guesses but trying to make it look like you know something that you don't, there by discrediting everything you say.

     

    Point 2. 30% taken off the top by Lucas Arts, see point 1.

     

    Point 3. Your projected lasting subs... you have zero bases for thse numbers, NONE, and unless you can actually see into the future you can't even guess. but again, see point 1.

     

    But anyways, you are super smart and since you don't like SWTOR then it must be a failure.

     

    One thing this thread has done is get me interested in resubbing to TOR. Haven't played since the included month ended, but I think I may go and check it out again.

     

     

    *Edit*

    Forgot your 30% server cost thing, that happens to be one thing I know about, I spent 2 1/2 years as an engineer for the Denver Data Center for eBay Inc located on Revere Parkway in Centennial Colo. I worked 4 10 hr shifts a week while working for them. during my shifts I was the only guy there. I made $21 hr. and we had just over 300 servers (including facility IT servers). You claiming 30% rev to run their servers? Wrong.

     

    lol.  I'm an accountant.  You are not.   I read financial statements.   You do not.   I said FULLY WEIGHTED SERVER COSTS, you had no idea what I was talking about.    But I'll address your two biggest blunders.

     

    1.  On 67%:  Ricetello himself said this during the December,2011 financial statement call.  That you don't know this doesn't make me wrong.  It just means you don't know what you're talking about and pretending that you do.

     

    2.  On server costs:  When you make $20 a hour, it costs your company MORE than $20 an hour.   They have payroll takes they have to match.  Benefits they have to give you and adminster.  They have tons of overhead and direct expenses you're not considering, everything from bandwidth, to ultiies, to legal, amortization, deprection, hardware costs, rent....  You're completely uniformed in this area and should not, under any circumstances, argue with someone who has done this, as a CPA, for over twenty years.  

     

    Blizzard, for example, with much fuller servers, brought in $251 million for subs last quarter.   The fully-weighted server costs (which is more than$20 an hour paid to some know-nothing in a data center) were $59 million.   That's 24% of revenue for Blizzard, which has bigger and fuller servers allowing economies of scale that BioWare doesn't get.   So, 30% due to BioWare's far less efficient server-set-up is a very reasonable estimation of the fully-weighted server costs.

     

    Here, so you won't be so complete and embarassingly  wrong the next time you try and show-up an accountant, try Northeastern.  They're not a diploma mill and are AASCB accreditied which means they have a top-flight program in all their business degrees.   Including their Bachelor of Science (BS) in Finance and Accounting Management degree program:

     

    http://pages.northeastern.edu/BSFinanceAccountingManagementPPC.html?paramname=Google&gclid=COS-3Jz-mLACFUZeTAodiRcL8Q

     

     

  • MosesZDMosesZD Member UncommonPosts: 1,361
    Originally posted by ignore_me
    Originally posted by mcburly
    Originally posted by Bardus

    To the guy that says "I recently befriended someone who, lets just say, knows the inside scoop", I'm looking for a horse hockey emote, can anyone direct me to a horse hockey emote? Seriously dude, do you take us for that much fools?

    LOL, I knew someone was gonna come out and call me a liar. Its all good though, I have no reason to lie on these boards. take it for what it is. You dont have to believe me

    I actually don't find that hard to believe. There is still a lot of subs and money there at this point. The inside attitude would tend to be a positive one, however, so there needs to be some accounting for that. The trajectory from here is really the question, because they can't sustain continued losses on this magnitude.

    Where SWTOR is a failure though, in my opinion, is in its design. The evidence of this is pretty solid. Endgame, lack of content diversity, PvP badness causing grief for the title.

     

    They just laid off 200 people.   I, having been (way back in the 1980s) a young assistant project manager for a Fortune-100 (IC Industries) manufacturer going through lay-offs and spin-offs and business units closing...   Moral is almost certainly at rock-bottom right now and people are scared and most of them will have lost their faith in management as they can see the bad decisions come home to roost.

  • BardusBardus Member Posts: 460
    Originally posted by MosesZD
    Originally posted by ignore_me
    Originally posted by mcburly
    Originally posted by Bardus

    To the guy that says "I recently befriended someone who, lets just say, knows the inside scoop", I'm looking for a horse hockey emote, can anyone direct me to a horse hockey emote? Seriously dude, do you take us for that much fools?

    LOL, I knew someone was gonna come out and call me a liar. Its all good though, I have no reason to lie on these boards. take it for what it is. You dont have to believe me

    I actually don't find that hard to believe. There is still a lot of subs and money there at this point. The inside attitude would tend to be a positive one, however, so there needs to be some accounting for that. The trajectory from here is really the question, because they can't sustain continued losses on this magnitude.

    Where SWTOR is a failure though, in my opinion, is in its design. The evidence of this is pretty solid. Endgame, lack of content diversity, PvP badness causing grief for the title.

     

    They just laid off 200 people.   I, having been (way back in the 1980s) a young assistant project manager for a Fortune-100 (IC Industries) manufacturer going through lay-offs and spin-offs and business units closing...   Moral is almost certainly at rock-bottom right now and people are scared and most of them will have lost their faith in management as they can see the bad decisions come home to roost.

    Can we have a source for that 200? I haven't seen anything on how many and this is the 1st time I seen it metioned.

    image

  • dumbo11dumbo11 Member Posts: 134

    Whether it's a "massive failure" I'm not sure... but I'd like to think people are learning these lessons:

    1) In an MMORPG, population is king.

    If there aren't enough people to form a community and form groups, then the game dies.  If you choose to split your playerbase between "servers", then each server needs an adequate population or it will die.

    This is the most fundamental problem facing an MMO, there are many ways to mitigate, solve or deal with the issue.  SWTOR didn't have a plan, and didn't have any mitigation tools ready for release.

    2) A driver does not replace gameplay.

    I sometimes bad watch films for the storyline... but I wouldn't watch a poor, lengthy mini-series just because the storyline was good.

    3) Business models need to suit the game, and need to evolve over time.

    SWTOR is the poster child for something that would have worked as a no-subs game with frequent expansions.

     

    Failure to learn from #1 is killing the industry.

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