...but we can't blame the makers of a game for the kind of community it attracts. Then again, they really do tote the 'cutthroat nature' and laud every major scam that happens around. Maybe they *are* asking for it.
I have given up hope on CCP doing anything about anything that happens ingame.
CCP likes their games image and they want to keep it as the polar opposite of WoW.
What im afraid of is that they will extend their philosophy to WoD, because we dont need EvE with vampires, we really don't.
No, we need WoW with vampires. There are so many Eve clones that the market is flooded.
one clone doesnt mean theres a flood. i am not sure if you are aware of this or not but sandbox mmos were here before EVE. even space mmos.
...but we can't blame the makers of a game for the kind of community it attracts. Then again, they really do tote the 'cutthroat nature' and laud every major scam that happens around. Maybe they *are* asking for it.
I have given up hope on CCP doing anything about anything that happens ingame.
CCP likes their games image and they want to keep it as the polar opposite of WoW.
What im afraid of is that they will extend their philosophy to WoD, because we dont need EvE with vampires, we really don't.
I have a feeling you're going to be sorely disapointed with WoD then. During the EVE fanfest they had an entire presentation by one of the lead devs of WoD, and one of the things he said that is taking so long about developing the game is that they're literally translating all the EVE systems over for WoD.
CCP is steadfastly committed to building sandboxes, and WoD is supposed to be as much a sandbox as EVE. And what would a vampire game be if you weren't kiling each other, isn't that something that happens in the WoD game? Vampires groups fighting with each other?
I wasn't even thinking about WoD, had no interest, until I saw that presentation. Can't wait till closer to the end of the year to hear more about the game. Something tells me their further along with development then people might realize.
But yeah, I know some people don't like PvP. Unfotunetly with no pvp you lose a lot the potential of a sandbox. That's not to say that it's not possible to have places were people will be safe, and I think they may be doing that with WoD. EVE on the other hand, doesn't really work. People like to call EVE a "PvP game" but the truth is it's more of an economic game that depends on both PvP and PvE. If EVE had places that were entirely safe, with no ability to blow each other up, the economy wouldn't work. As much as some people may not like it, you simply can't have an area of the game were miners could mine with no threat.
Even miners need to lose ships and belt rats don't pose any threat to mining vessels. The only thing that's going to blow up a hulk in hi sec is another player. It's also very easy to avoid losing a ship to other players in hi sec, but most of the miners that complain about it refuse to take any measure to do so. You can look on the EVE-O forums and see duscussion after discussion of people looking for every and any excuse they can to justify a hulk pilot not having to do anything to avoid getting blown up. People are showing miners exactly how to fit their ships so that they can't be suicide ganked, and there are a handful of miners who are resorting to, "it doesn't matter, you can't stop 10 guys from suicide ganking you". As if anyone ever gets ganked by 10 guys in destroyers; in hi sec.
...but we can't blame the makers of a game for the kind of community it attracts. Then again, they really do tote the 'cutthroat nature' and laud every major scam that happens around. Maybe they *are* asking for it.
I have given up hope on CCP doing anything about anything that happens ingame.
CCP likes their games image and they want to keep it as the polar opposite of WoW.
What im afraid of is that they will extend their philosophy to WoD, because we dont need EvE with vampires, we really don't.
No, we need WoW with vampires. There are so many Eve clones that the market is flooded.
one clone doesnt mean theres a flood. i am not sure if you are aware of this or not but sandbox mmos were here before EVE. even space mmos.
I was being sarcastic.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
...but we can't blame the makers of a game for the kind of community it attracts. Then again, they really do tote the 'cutthroat nature' and laud every major scam that happens around. Maybe they *are* asking for it.
I have given up hope on CCP doing anything about anything that happens ingame.
CCP likes their games image and they want to keep it as the polar opposite of WoW.
What im afraid of is that they will extend their philosophy to WoD, because we dont need EvE with vampires, we really don't.
I have a feeling you're going to be sorely disapointed with WoD then. During the EVE fanfest they had an entire presentation by one of the lead devs of WoD, and one of the things he said that is taking so long about developing the game is that they're literally translating all the EVE systems over for WoD.
CCP is steadfastly committed to building sandboxes, and WoD is supposed to be as much a sandbox as EVE. And what would a vampire game be if you weren't kiling each other, isn't that something that happens in the WoD game? Vampires groups fighting with each other?
I wasn't even thinking about WoD, had no interest, until I saw that presentation. Can't wait till closer to the end of the year to hear more about the game. Something tells me their further along with development then people might realize.
But yeah, I know some people don't like PvP. Unfotunetly with no pvp you lose a lot the potential of a sandbox. That's not to say that it's not possible to have places were people will be safe, and I think they may be doing that with WoD. EVE on the other hand, doesn't really work. People like to call EVE a "PvP game" but the truth is it's more of an economic game that depends on both PvP and PvE. If EVE had places that were entirely safe, with no ability to blow each other up, the economy wouldn't work. As much as some people may not like it, you simply can't have an area of the game were miners could mine with no threat.
Even miners need to lose ships and belt rats don't pose any threat to mining vessels. The only thing that's going to blow up a hulk in hi sec is another player. It's also very easy to avoid losing a ship to other players in hi sec, but most of the miners that complain about it refuse to take any measure to do so. You can look on the EVE-O forums and see duscussion after discussion of people looking for every and any excuse they can to justify a hulk pilot not having to do anything to avoid getting blown up. People are showing miners exactly how to fit their ships so that they can't be suicide ganked, and there are a handful of miners who are resorting to, "it doesn't matter, you can't stop 10 guys from suicide ganking you". As if anyone ever gets ganked by 10 guys in destroyers; in hi sec.
I knew that it would turn out that way since it was announced that CCP is working on it.
I like the concepts that CCP uses, after all there isn't anything inherrently wrong with them, i just don't like their game-design and implementation.
I'm not going to get into a discussion about concrete EvE mechanics, because i could write a thesis on it and it wouldn't be enough (and would also not convince you anyways).
Like i said in one of my posts, i'd really want to play EvE, but the community doesn't let me.
Eh...I am sorry but I did not read the linked article, I assume that it is another Mittens bullcrap I do not have a strength to read so I will react to snippet you quoted:
The point is, even if those poor souls visit the forums for the first time, their mindset and perception of EVE unlikely changes(positively) and they either quit, unsurprisingly after they discover to them new unknown phenomenon - forum population(trolls, jerks, Goons) or they will be annoyed even more.
I did not read the article, yet I can imagine how he goes thoroughly explaining how he is actually doing a favor to the game(saving it) and to the players who are either very stupid(read: disagree) or not playing the game "right".
Really not worthy the read, it is a typical Mittens hypocrisy and delusion of is egocentric disorder. He does something either very harmful, pointless or pocketing someone else effort or action and then justify it as something heroic.
The man is seriously disturbed...
Yes, it's written by him. Bullcrap though? No sir.
Nor does he say anything about "saving" the game. He does say that goons are more "reminding" people that they aren't playing a concentual pvp game, which a lot of people really do think they're playing. There are literally people asking CCP to remove the ability to attack other players in hi-sec space.
No hypocrisy either. If you're interested in a game like EVE, and you like the way a true sandbox works, then the article makes some very good points.
CCP promoted the burn jita event. CCP promotes the notion that miners are valid targets, even in hi-sec. CCP does not want you to be safe. CCP wants you to lose your ship, because it's the backbone of the economic structure in the EVE universe. And there are a lot of people who don't get that, or refuse to accept that.
That article actually mirrors a lot of the sentement that a lot of people here express. They're tired of the hand holding, linear, themepark design of instant gratification and constant reward that has led to a lot of mmoers who feel they are entitled to be catered to. That's how I feel, and it's not because I'm a goon, but because I'm a big proponent of the sandbox design that the industry as a whole moved away from, in favor of catering to a group who are averse to any form of emmergent gameplay.
O'rly? It's not a true sandbox when you have people in the sandbox telling others that they're doing it wrong and attacking them for being wrong.
Attacking miners is one thing but attacking miners because in your opinion they're not playing the game properly is anything but championing the concept of a true sandbox.
Why do you lads always try to justify your being a bunch of assholes? It's just a video game - it's not real life so go ahead and be the biggest assholes you want to be but keep in mind that you're fooling nobody with your drivel and no one likes to play games with assholes.
I will point out a few key words/phrases from your post ... "it's just a video game" "true sandbox"
in a sanbox, the content is driven by the players, ie (there is no Lich king or boss that drives you act, its the other players that are the heros & heels) in the sandbox , people kick over your sand castles, thats part of the game .. or they can help you build them, its about choices.
a game where player free will is mandated, would not be sandbox.
being a pirate is every much as valid a profession as being a vigilante (or miner, industrialist, or daydreamer who flies around in space all day in a shuttle)
If you change your expectations, and see the gankers as part of the game (the random elite spawn that rains on your asteroid picnic) you will see that without this, a lot of the excitment evaporates.
A driven player, would strive to develop techniques to prevent himself from being killed while mining, if thats what he wanted to do ... (you know pay attention to local, dscan, pre-align)
or would you argue that any random monster spawns near your node in WOW should be removed so you can mine in peace ?
Technically, you COULD kill a carrier with nothing but stealth bombers...if you had over 100 of them and the carrier's friends didn't show up...
This is plainly untrue, a swarm of about 20 bombers is more than sufficient to kill a single carrier in a timely manner, before his friends could react, as happened here:
We deployed a drag bubble way off the station and aligned it towards a POS that their ships were known to warp from to the station. We had a covert cyno cloaked off the bubble, as soon as our carrier friend here found himself hundreds of KMs away from the station we dropped with just over 20 bombers and recons. The carrier explodes 2 minutes later, just in time for his buddies to start getting warp ins, they trickle one at a time and die. Then a sizable group finally warps in as we are withdrawing from the bubble.
Wow. If you had a good 2 minutes of time to shoot at him uncontested, both that pilot and his friends really weren't paying attention. Good job though.
Technically, you COULD kill a carrier with nothing but stealth bombers...if you had over 100 of them and the carrier's friends didn't show up...
This is plainly untrue, a swarm of about 20 bombers is more than sufficient to kill a single carrier in a timely manner, before his friends could react, as happened here:
We deployed a drag bubble way off the station and aligned it towards a POS that their ships were known to warp from to the station. We had a covert cyno cloaked off the bubble, as soon as our carrier friend here found himself hundreds of KMs away from the station we dropped with just over 20 bombers and recons. The carrier explodes 2 minutes later, just in time for his buddies to start getting warp ins, they trickle one at a time and die. Then a sizable group finally warps in as we are withdrawing from the bubble.
Wow. If you had a good 2 minutes of time to shoot at him uncontested, both that pilot and his friends really weren't paying attention. Good job though.
About 30 seconds into it a whole bunch of them undocked from the station that was about 300km away. Apparently the guy was not in fleet and they had no warp in because they literally sat there impotently for about a minute trying to get their shit together. Granted the guy was probably confused and shitting his pants because he thought he was warping to the station. But given the surprise buttsex I would say that their response time was decent. As the guy was in very low hull they managed to start wraping into us one at a time. Providing us with a few more kills before the entire fleet came in and whacked a few of us:
He is trying to force CCP to choose between the laissez-faire sandbox ideal that they have always espoused
If they ever did, there would be no high sec and many restrictive rules.
On the contrary, what makes EVE sandbox is the "practical need to have a functional gaming environment".
You just still impose your play style and view upon others...such approach is mutually exclusive with sandbox principles.
I personally believe that highsec and restrictive rules are concessions to keep the sheep in the game. Although for obvious PC reasons if you were CCP you can't say this outright.
Either way its part of the sandbox to impose my playstyle and views upon others in the box with me, on the flipside its their right to do the same to me. For example there is a small coalition called the NRDS (anti-pirate) coalition that I philosophically disagree with, they are trying to impose their way of thinking thru artifical player rules that they have invented. They enforce their ideals by blowing up "pirates" that do not agree with their rules. They are doing something about people like goons actively and without CCP intervention, they are miners and industrialists too but with teeth and for this I do respect them much more than someone who simply ask the devs to solve player problems for them.
New player here, but that sounds like a corp to get in with! I hate "Pirates". I got killed last night in a badger mk I By a carrier with a scout buddy and all he had was a warp disrupter and a MWD to close the gap. Warped in to 80 KM from me, and jsut as i was kicking into warp drive, nope!
1 run more than paid for my ship, but I swear i will get payback on these "Pirates". Hope you feel bad launching 15 heavy drones to kill a single badger industry ship. (Still took you 2 minutes with my shields going)
When people run around killing badger mk1's, thats not PvP, thats not "Pirating" (I hadn't even started so i had 0 inventory), That is ganking, and i will have my payback one day! Have fun losing a 1bil isk ship trying to kill a transport.
(Obviously not saying you were this pirate haha, just my general feeling towards what i've found the community of EvE to be)
What's your conception of "pirating"? How do you imagine it working?
Of course what happened to you was pirating. Attacking a defenceless cargo ship is the living definition of pirating.
How was he to know your hold was empty? Pirates don't pirate for "fair fights" or tourney-style combat experiences, they attack targets of opportunity for personal gain while minimising their loss.
Comments
one clone doesnt mean theres a flood. i am not sure if you are aware of this or not but sandbox mmos were here before EVE. even space mmos.
I have a feeling you're going to be sorely disapointed with WoD then. During the EVE fanfest they had an entire presentation by one of the lead devs of WoD, and one of the things he said that is taking so long about developing the game is that they're literally translating all the EVE systems over for WoD.
CCP is steadfastly committed to building sandboxes, and WoD is supposed to be as much a sandbox as EVE. And what would a vampire game be if you weren't kiling each other, isn't that something that happens in the WoD game? Vampires groups fighting with each other?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k84AzwiqFIE
There's some good stuff in there.
I wasn't even thinking about WoD, had no interest, until I saw that presentation. Can't wait till closer to the end of the year to hear more about the game. Something tells me their further along with development then people might realize.
But yeah, I know some people don't like PvP. Unfotunetly with no pvp you lose a lot the potential of a sandbox. That's not to say that it's not possible to have places were people will be safe, and I think they may be doing that with WoD. EVE on the other hand, doesn't really work. People like to call EVE a "PvP game" but the truth is it's more of an economic game that depends on both PvP and PvE. If EVE had places that were entirely safe, with no ability to blow each other up, the economy wouldn't work. As much as some people may not like it, you simply can't have an area of the game were miners could mine with no threat.
Even miners need to lose ships and belt rats don't pose any threat to mining vessels. The only thing that's going to blow up a hulk in hi sec is another player. It's also very easy to avoid losing a ship to other players in hi sec, but most of the miners that complain about it refuse to take any measure to do so. You can look on the EVE-O forums and see duscussion after discussion of people looking for every and any excuse they can to justify a hulk pilot not having to do anything to avoid getting blown up. People are showing miners exactly how to fit their ships so that they can't be suicide ganked, and there are a handful of miners who are resorting to, "it doesn't matter, you can't stop 10 guys from suicide ganking you". As if anyone ever gets ganked by 10 guys in destroyers; in hi sec.
I was being sarcastic.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
I knew that it would turn out that way since it was announced that CCP is working on it.
I like the concepts that CCP uses, after all there isn't anything inherrently wrong with them, i just don't like their game-design and implementation.
I'm not going to get into a discussion about concrete EvE mechanics, because i could write a thesis on it and it wouldn't be enough (and would also not convince you anyways).
Like i said in one of my posts, i'd really want to play EvE, but the community doesn't let me.
I will point out a few key words/phrases from your post ... "it's just a video game" "true sandbox"
in a sanbox, the content is driven by the players, ie (there is no Lich king or boss that drives you act, its the other players that are the heros & heels) in the sandbox , people kick over your sand castles, thats part of the game .. or they can help you build them, its about choices.
a game where player free will is mandated, would not be sandbox.
being a pirate is every much as valid a profession as being a vigilante (or miner, industrialist, or daydreamer who flies around in space all day in a shuttle)
If you change your expectations, and see the gankers as part of the game (the random elite spawn that rains on your asteroid picnic) you will see that without this, a lot of the excitment evaporates.
A driven player, would strive to develop techniques to prevent himself from being killed while mining, if thats what he wanted to do ... (you know pay attention to local, dscan, pre-align)
or would you argue that any random monster spawns near your node in WOW should be removed so you can mine in peace ?
do you see the correlations ?
Wow. If you had a good 2 minutes of time to shoot at him uncontested, both that pilot and his friends really weren't paying attention. Good job though.
Where's the any key?
About 30 seconds into it a whole bunch of them undocked from the station that was about 300km away. Apparently the guy was not in fleet and they had no warp in because they literally sat there impotently for about a minute trying to get their shit together. Granted the guy was probably confused and shitting his pants because he thought he was warping to the station. But given the surprise buttsex I would say that their response time was decent. As the guy was in very low hull they managed to start wraping into us one at a time. Providing us with a few more kills before the entire fleet came in and whacked a few of us:
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=10326472
But what we got was more than worth what we lost.
What's your conception of "pirating"? How do you imagine it working?
Of course what happened to you was pirating. Attacking a defenceless cargo ship is the living definition of pirating.
How was he to know your hold was empty? Pirates don't pirate for "fair fights" or tourney-style combat experiences, they attack targets of opportunity for personal gain while minimising their loss.
Give me liberty or give me lasers