#2 Most (if not all) marketing is based on word of mouth, not $100M+ USD
#3 It's a MOD to ArmA II, which makes it harder to access for the average person. In addition, that ArmA II engine is a nightmare (IMHO).
But, despite all that, it's #1 is steam sales (and has been for at least a week or two). It also sold out on Amazon last week and In the 1.5 weeks I've been playing the player base jumped from 800K to over 1.5M.
Only time will tell, but it's definitely a sandbox and it's definitely scratching an itch for many gamers.
I'm excited about DayZ, but I'm more excited about the types of sandbox games that it's going to encourage in the future.
Can you build things or manipulate the world in DayZ? If not, there's no "sand" to be manipulated, so it's not a sandbox.
(Update: and it's more than just building things. I built things in TF2, but I'm not going to call it a sandbox because of that. Manipulating the world has to be a strong element of gameplay for a game to be sandbox.)
It's alpha....and it's being constantly updated. You can build vehicles now.....I can see the ability to build fences, forts, etc. coming soon. The Dev is rather open to suggestions....
DayZ is the #1 game on Steam (it's a mod for ArmA II). And it sold out last week on Amazon during their sale.
It's also been getting pleny of press coverage, check the twitter account...he retweets all the coverage there.
That's all fine and good ArmA II is a great game in itself anyway, so I'm glad the Mod has brought attention to it. AT the same time, to say it's eclipsing upcoming themepark MMO's is a bit of a stretch.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The only challenge I see is your failure to recognize all the massively popular sandbox games that have been brought up in this thread.When a few guys make a sandbox mod out of a 2009 fps (DayZ) and its popularity eclipses current and upcoming multi million dollar themeparks, I don't really see any other need to try and prove your claims false.
I'm amazed how you think that DayZ makes a blip in hardly anyone's radar. Were you the guy who said it rivalled Battlefield 3 and Call of Duty 4 in sales?
no. but if you think its barely making a blip on the radar, you're living under a rock.
Comparing DayZ to BF3 and COD4 isn't quite fair. It's like comparing apples and helicopters....
#2 Most (if not all) marketing is based on word of mouth, not $100M+ USD
#3 It's a MOD to ArmA II, which makes it harder to access for the average person. In addition, that ArmA II engine is a nightmare (IMHO).
But, despite all that, it's #1 is steam sales (and has been for at least a week or two). It also sold out on Amazon last week and In the 1.5 weeks I've been playing the player base jumped from 800K to over 1.5M.
Only time will tell, but it's definitely a sandbox and it's definitely scratching an itch for many gamers.
I'm excited about DayZ, but I'm more excited about the types of sandbox games that it's going to encourage in the future.
Not to go too far off topic here but I fully expect another "Counter Strike" scenerio with this one as well. The massive jump in sales for ARMA II: CO has been noticed by the developers already and they are giving the mod team their full support at this point. I fully expect before the year is out that Bohemian will hire all of these guys and buy the rights to the mod. This will be paid DLC at some point... You wait and see.
The only challenge I see is your failure to recognize all the massively popular sandbox games that have been brought up in this thread.
When a few guys make a sandbox mod out of a 2009 fps (DayZ) and its popularity eclipses current and upcoming multi million dollar themeparks, I don't really see any other need to try and prove your claims false.
DayZ is a survival game, and it's popularity seems to stem more from it being an interesting apporach to the Zombie Apocalypse fad which is very popular today, rather than for sandbox game-play.
AS for it's popularity eclipsing upcoming games, I don't know where you're getting that from. A few threads here?
DayZ is the #1 game on Steam (it's a mod for ArmA II). And it sold out last week on Amazon during their sale.
It's also been getting pleny of press coverage, check the twitter account...he retweets all the coverage there.
That's not his point. His point is that while DayZ is very popular, it does not quite qualify as a sandbox (and he's right).
However I'd argue that a game that provides it's users the tools to create mods is as sandbox as it gets.
Originally posted by Distopia Originally posted by DannyGlover
The only challenge I see is your failure to recognize all the massively popular sandbox games that have been brought up in this thread.When a few guys make a sandbox mod out of a 2009 fps (DayZ) and its popularity eclipses current and upcoming multi million dollar themeparks, I don't really see any other need to try and prove your claims false. DayZ is a survival game, and it's popularity seems to stem more from it being an interesting apporach to the Zombie Apocalypse fad which is very popular today, rather than for sandbox game-play.
AS for it's popularity eclipsing upcoming games, I don't know where you're getting that from. A few threads here?
Its a survival horror mmo. With player made content, and perma death. It resembles a sandbox more than a themepark in that regard. As far as popularity, Im going off of it being in the top 10 downloads list for games on amazon, boxed copies sold out on most game sites in the past month, and its been the #1 download on steam for weeks now (at 30 bucks even)
Given the circumstances: word of mouth advertising and insignificant development cost, id say its a pretty strong indicator that people are very interested in non themepark mmos. Ten million registered users for Minecraft also indicate an interest in sandbox style games.
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
#2 Most (if not all) marketing is based on word of mouth, not $100M+ USD
#3 It's a MOD to ArmA II, which makes it harder to access for the average person. In addition, that ArmA II engine is a nightmare (IMHO).
But, despite all that, it's #1 is steam sales (and has been for at least a week or two). It also sold out on Amazon last week and In the 1.5 weeks I've been playing the player base jumped from 800K to over 1.5M.
Only time will tell, but it's definitely a sandbox and it's definitely scratching an itch for many gamers.
I'm excited about DayZ, but I'm more excited about the types of sandbox games that it's going to encourage in the future.
Can you build things or manipulate the world in DayZ? If not, there's no "sand" to be manipulated, so it's not a sandbox.
(Update: and it's more than just building things. I built things in TF2, but I'm not going to call it a sandbox because of that. Manipulating the world has to be a strong element of gameplay for a game to be sandbox.)
What are the "standard requirements" for a game to be a sandbox. Just curious, not trolling.
DayZ is the #1 game on Steam (it's a mod for ArmA II). And it sold out last week on Amazon during their sale.
It's also been getting pleny of press coverage, check the twitter account...he retweets all the coverage there.
That's all fine and good ArmA II is a great game in itself anyway, so I'm glad the Mod has brought attention to it. AT the same time, to say it's eclipsing upcoming themepark MMO's is a bit of a stretch.
I never said that....I'm sure others in this thread have. I think GW2 has a tremendous amount of hype and there are other Themepark games that are worthy of attention. I'm just glad that the other side (Sandbox) is getting some attention too b/c there's a lot of great potential.
It's not an either / or for me. And for the past week, if you use Steam sales as an indicator, DayZ/ArmA II sales ARE eclipsing ALL games in ALL genres (except for Diablo 3 probably). Not sure how long this will last.....
I have to believe that any THINKING(i'd even venture far enough to say SANE) man would prefer the Sandbox after they are tired of riding the same rides over and over again at the themepark?
There are two kinds of people in this world. People who pick their nose.. and liars.
Originally posted by Distopia Originally posted by SpazSharkDayZ is the #1 game on Steam (it's a mod for ArmA II). And it sold out last week on Amazon during their sale.It's also been getting pleny of press coverage, check the twitter account...he retweets all the coverage there.
That's all fine and good ArmA II is a great game in itself anyway, so I'm glad the Mod has brought attention to it. AT the same time, to say it's eclipsing upcoming themepark MMO's is a bit of a stretch.
1.6 Million characters created is pretty good. That's not exactly 'eclipsing' upcoming theme park MMOs, but it's certainly a very strong showing. I'm sure it helps that the mod is free, but the game itself requires a $32 purchase, so there's that.
I would love to see something come of this. Zombie survival horror with a realistic touch. Very nice. If I wasn't saving for a vacation, I'd actually think about getting this.
It's not really a sandbox though. It has certain sandbox elements, but it's not really a sandbox. More of a theme park with no quests.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Its a survival horror mmo. With player made content, and perma death. It resembles a sandbox more than a themepark in that regard. As far as popularity, Im going off of it being in the top 10 downloads list for games on amazon, boxed copies sold out on most game sites in the past month, and its been the #1 download on steam for weeks now (at 30 bucks even)
Given the circumstances: word of mouth advertising and insignificant development cost, id say its a pretty strong indicator that people are very interested in non themepark mmos. Ten million registered users for Minecraft also indicate an interest in sandbox style games.
I understand the mod is doing really, really well. As for it being an indicator I'm not going to say you're wrong, but I have to question if that is what is making it so popular, for sandbox fans I could see it being a factor in checking it out. But if it plays like ArmA II it's more of a simulation than anything, much like the BF2 reality mod was fairly popular when I was still playing that (great mod/ community experience). It could be the zombie theme in such a game environment behind it's popularity as well. Which is why I'm reluctant to use it as a gauge to say whether or not there's a huge sandbox MMO audience out there just waiting for a worthy game.
Don't read me wrong I understand what you're saying here, a sim has a lot more in common with Sandbox than it does Themepark.
As for it being an MMO from what I've been reading it's on it's way there, but not exactly there yet. I've been keeping an eye on it, and have been intrigued by it, I just haven't bought the Arma expansion I'd need to play it yet.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by SpazSharkDayZ is the #1 game on Steam (it's a mod for ArmA II). And it sold out last week on Amazon during their sale.It's also been getting pleny of press coverage, check the twitter account...he retweets all the coverage there.
That's all fine and good ArmA II is a great game in itself anyway, so I'm glad the Mod has brought attention to it. AT the same time, to say it's eclipsing upcoming themepark MMO's is a bit of a stretch.
1.6 Million characters created is pretty good. That's not exactly 'eclipsing' upcoming theme park MMOs, but it's certainly a very strong showing. I'm sure it helps that the mod is free, but the game itself requires a $32 purchase, so there's that.
I would love to see something come of this. Zombie survival horror with a realistic touch. Very nice. If I wasn't saving for a vacation, I'd actually think about getting this.
It's not really a sandbox though. It has certain sandbox elements, but it's not really a sandbox. More of a theme park with no quests.
That is a great achievment, especially considering it's a mod, I rarely see any TES mod reach that number of DL's so I am very impressed by that. Not to mention what that has done for the Arma II and III teams, I'm sure that revenue will be a huge help in making ARmA III an even better game.
These guys have certainly accomplished a lot, I'll be checking it out for sure at some point.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by Distopia Originally posted by DannyGlover
Its a survival horror mmo. With player made content, and perma death. It resembles a sandbox more than a themepark in that regard. As far as popularity, Im going off of it being in the top 10 downloads list for games on amazon, boxed copies sold out on most game sites in the past month, and its been the #1 download on steam for weeks now (at 30 bucks even) Given the circumstances: word of mouth advertising and insignificant development cost, id say its a pretty strong indicator that people are very interested in non themepark mmos. Ten million registered users for Minecraft also indicate an interest in sandbox style games.I understand the mod is doing really, really well. As for it being an indicator I'm not going to say you're wrong, but I have to question if that is what is making it so popular, for sandbox fans I could see it being a factor in checking it out. But if it plays like ArmA II it's more of a simulation than anything, much like the BF2 reality mod was fairly popular when I was still playing that (great mod/ community experience). It could be the zombie theme in such a game environment behind it's popularity as well. Which is why I'm reluctant to use it as a gauge to say whether or not there's a huge sandbox MMO audience out there just waiting for a worthy game.
Don't read me wrong I understand what you're saying here, a sim has a lot more in common with Sandbox than it does Themepark.
As for it being an MMO from what I've been reading it's on it's way there, but not exactly there yet. I've been keeping an eye on it, and have been intrigued by it, I just haven't bought the Arma expansion I'd need to play it yet.
I see what you're saying. For me, I look at games like Minecraft and DayZ and I see their popularity as a sign that people are desperate for more non linear games. We gobble that stuff up even when its pixelated to hell, full of bugs, or some half finished addon. I will also agree with you that sandbox mmos are a niche within a niche. But that doesnt mean a meager amount of fans. A good sandbox mmo can garner thtmepark numbers. Themepark is a formula that works right now and thats where the big money is going.
My opinion on themeparks are varied. Not a huge fan, but I can enjoy the good stuff they offer. They always feel incomplete though.
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
The unknown in your argument which could make you right or wrong is there hasn't really been a quality (quality being so very subjective) pve sandbox game ever released. There was UO (trammel), which was a few years into UO life when 3d was the new craze. Then we had SWG, which I never played but it sounds like it was a lot fun but had a lot of bugs.
So the million dollar question is how many of the "themepark" junkies would love the non-linear, non-story driven, open world of a sandbox game? Maybe once a few more multi-million dollar games don't live up to investors expectation some more money will be tossed at sandbox style games.
What are the "standard requirements" for a game to be a sandbox. Just curious, not trolling.
It's all about player authorship vs. dev authorship of the experience.
Dev authorship = rides = themepark. Like Skyrim or WOW, you don't manipulate the world much so there's no "sand", just rides to ride on.
Player authorship means the devs have simply provided some form of "sand" for players to create whatever they want. So sandbox features like CoX's architect mode, or the freeform construction in UO.
For a game to be a sandbox, it has to mostly be characterized by sandbox features.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Basically the argument is that people who want more "sandbox style" game mechanics are a minority of gamers. Let's break that down.
What is sandbox? In essence, it is about giving people more freedom, more choices, and more consequences to their actions. It is about creating a virtual world.
The first sandbox of course was UO. As the guinea pig, it undoubtedly had its flaws. However it clearly was - and is - a sucess and it still in operation today.
What happened since? Basically companies decided they did not want the headache of the more complex task of creating a virtual world. With WOW they discovered that people will line up and be force-fed a lower standard of player freedom. It was for economic and convenience reasons that we have the current Theme Park domination. Not because it is what players want.
The OP argument is basically "the fact that people are eating crap means they want to eat crap! Why do you want to feed them anything different?"
And yes, if you are saying there is no flying spaghetti monster, you would need to prove that there really isn't one.
But you can't, because you don't have an argument.
Actually the burden of proof lies on the one making the outrageous claim...and anyone saying there IS a flying spaghetti monster needs to prove it...not the people saying there isnt one.
Sorry...but you made a poor example.
Anyway. With this...the sandbox claim...the burden of prood does lay with those saying the sandbox crowd is massive because historically there have been no sandbox games with a population anywhere near the biggest themepark games.
BTW...I prefer sandbox games...just not sandbox games made by Raph Koster.
Remember, those sandboxers can forever make a claim that the sandbox wasn't good enough or sandbox enough or some other flaw basically to sidestep the idea. The "famous" sandbox swg wasn't supporting enough subscriptions for the powers that be and they changed it. If the game was that great and underperformed, what chance does their claim make. Naturally, they will never admit it had any subscription problems or blame it all on the power of WOW.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Embers of Caeres looks good but they have volanteers and live off of donations which has fail written all over it. Love to be proved wrong as it sounds like a good game.
Embers of Caeres looks good but they have volanteers and live off of donations which has fail written all over it. Love to be proved wrong as it sounds like a good game.
As opposed to AAA Development studios who have "professional" Developers and Million $$ Budgets that also fail /cough**aoc/war/swtor/etc**/cough
Maybe independant "amateur" devs that arent following the status quo, working off donations from the player community and not beholden to "suits", is the way to make good games
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT Playing: Skyrim Following: The Repopulation I want a Virtual World, not just a Game. ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
I see what you're saying. For me, I look at games like Minecraft and DayZ and I see their popularity as a sign that people are desperate for more non linear games. We gobble that stuff up even when its pixelated to hell, full of bugs, or some half finished addon. I will also agree with you that sandbox mmos are a niche within a niche. But that doesnt mean a meager amount of fans. A good sandbox mmo can garner thtmepark numbers. Themepark is a formula that works right now and thats where the big money is going.
My opinion on themeparks are varied. Not a huge fan, but I can enjoy the good stuff they offer. They always feel incomplete though.
Can't find anything here to argue against lol, so yeah I agree with you here 100%.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I'd say if we ever had a well made sandbox that pushed all the right buttons, there's no predefined cap limiting how many fans it could have.
I'm curious, if Blizzard made a sandbox would it flop? Feel free to answer but remember it's rhetorical regardless of whether your gut tells you that you have the right answer or not. I'm not a fan, but they seem(ed) to have a good reputation for quality and a fanbase that eats up anything they put out. If I had to bet, I'd wager there would be a huge sandbox crowd if they made one.
Blizzard came to mind as prior to WoW, 500k subscribers was the top end of what MMOs could hope for. Anyone claiming in 1999 for example, that 'Massive mmo crowd is a myth' would have been dead wrong but most likely convinced that they had brilliant foresight that absolutely demanded they preach their conclusion to the masses on a forum somewhere.
I doubt there's a huge MMO sandbox fanbase at the moment (maybe 500k-1million playing sandboxes as a rough guess?), but there's absolutely the potential for one. It's pretty clear the MMO market has grown immensely since any triple A sandbox has been made. I'd be curious to see how well a fully funded triple A sandbox released in 2012 would do.
The first mmo's were sandbox but nobody called them as such, the reason they are now called sadboxes is because mmo's went mainstream and became shallow, but some games try to remain true to the original mmo, now called the sandbox. I don't know why the OP feels he has to belittle the original mmo fans, maybe he feels his raid grinds are being threatened.
The funny thing is all you themepark fans don't even know it but mmo's are slowly reverting back to a more sandboxy format..its a slow process but we are getting there. the ignorant wont even know they are playing a sandbox when one is produced for the masses, it will be a subtle transition..but the ignorant never notice such things.
Comments
It's alpha....and it's being constantly updated. You can build vehicles now.....I can see the ability to build fences, forts, etc. coming soon. The Dev is rather open to suggestions....
That's all fine and good ArmA II is a great game in itself anyway, so I'm glad the Mod has brought attention to it. AT the same time, to say it's eclipsing upcoming themepark MMO's is a bit of a stretch.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Not to go too far off topic here but I fully expect another "Counter Strike" scenerio with this one as well. The massive jump in sales for ARMA II: CO has been noticed by the developers already and they are giving the mod team their full support at this point. I fully expect before the year is out that Bohemian will hire all of these guys and buy the rights to the mod. This will be paid DLC at some point... You wait and see.
Bren
while(horse==dead)
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}
That's not his point. His point is that while DayZ is very popular, it does not quite qualify as a sandbox (and he's right).
However I'd argue that a game that provides it's users the tools to create mods is as sandbox as it gets.
DayZ is a survival game, and it's popularity seems to stem more from it being an interesting apporach to the Zombie Apocalypse fad which is very popular today, rather than for sandbox game-play.
AS for it's popularity eclipsing upcoming games, I don't know where you're getting that from. A few threads here?
Its a survival horror mmo. With player made content, and perma death. It resembles a sandbox more than a themepark in that regard. As far as popularity, Im going off of it being in the top 10 downloads list for games on amazon, boxed copies sold out on most game sites in the past month, and its been the #1 download on steam for weeks now (at 30 bucks even)
Given the circumstances: word of mouth advertising and insignificant development cost, id say its a pretty strong indicator that people are very interested in non themepark mmos. Ten million registered users for Minecraft also indicate an interest in sandbox style games.
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
What are the "standard requirements" for a game to be a sandbox. Just curious, not trolling.
I never said that....I'm sure others in this thread have. I think GW2 has a tremendous amount of hype and there are other Themepark games that are worthy of attention. I'm just glad that the other side (Sandbox) is getting some attention too b/c there's a lot of great potential.
It's not an either / or for me. And for the past week, if you use Steam sales as an indicator, DayZ/ArmA II sales ARE eclipsing ALL games in ALL genres (except for Diablo 3 probably). Not sure how long this will last.....
I have to believe that any THINKING(i'd even venture far enough to say SANE) man would prefer the Sandbox after they are tired of riding the same rides over and over again at the themepark?
There are two kinds of people in this world. People who pick their nose.. and liars.
I thought it would be obvious that Minecraft is an example of a popular game for its sandbox features.
1.6 Million characters created is pretty good. That's not exactly 'eclipsing' upcoming theme park MMOs, but it's certainly a very strong showing. I'm sure it helps that the mod is free, but the game itself requires a $32 purchase, so there's that.
I would love to see something come of this. Zombie survival horror with a realistic touch. Very nice. If I wasn't saving for a vacation, I'd actually think about getting this.
It's not really a sandbox though. It has certain sandbox elements, but it's not really a sandbox. More of a theme park with no quests.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I understand the mod is doing really, really well. As for it being an indicator I'm not going to say you're wrong, but I have to question if that is what is making it so popular, for sandbox fans I could see it being a factor in checking it out. But if it plays like ArmA II it's more of a simulation than anything, much like the BF2 reality mod was fairly popular when I was still playing that (great mod/ community experience). It could be the zombie theme in such a game environment behind it's popularity as well. Which is why I'm reluctant to use it as a gauge to say whether or not there's a huge sandbox MMO audience out there just waiting for a worthy game.
Don't read me wrong I understand what you're saying here, a sim has a lot more in common with Sandbox than it does Themepark.
As for it being an MMO from what I've been reading it's on it's way there, but not exactly there yet. I've been keeping an eye on it, and have been intrigued by it, I just haven't bought the Arma expansion I'd need to play it yet.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
That is a great achievment, especially considering it's a mod, I rarely see any TES mod reach that number of DL's so I am very impressed by that. Not to mention what that has done for the Arma II and III teams, I'm sure that revenue will be a huge help in making ARmA III an even better game.
These guys have certainly accomplished a lot, I'll be checking it out for sure at some point.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I understand the mod is doing really, really well. As for it being an indicator I'm not going to say you're wrong, but I have to question if that is what is making it so popular, for sandbox fans I could see it being a factor in checking it out. But if it plays like ArmA II it's more of a simulation than anything, much like the BF2 reality mod was fairly popular when I was still playing that (great mod/ community experience). It could be the zombie theme in such a game environment behind it's popularity as well. Which is why I'm reluctant to use it as a gauge to say whether or not there's a huge sandbox MMO audience out there just waiting for a worthy game.
Don't read me wrong I understand what you're saying here, a sim has a lot more in common with Sandbox than it does Themepark.
As for it being an MMO from what I've been reading it's on it's way there, but not exactly there yet. I've been keeping an eye on it, and have been intrigued by it, I just haven't bought the Arma expansion I'd need to play it yet.
I see what you're saying. For me, I look at games like Minecraft and DayZ and I see their popularity as a sign that people are desperate for more non linear games. We gobble that stuff up even when its pixelated to hell, full of bugs, or some half finished addon. I will also agree with you that sandbox mmos are a niche within a niche. But that doesnt mean a meager amount of fans. A good sandbox mmo can garner thtmepark numbers. Themepark is a formula that works right now and thats where the big money is going.
My opinion on themeparks are varied. Not a huge fan, but I can enjoy the good stuff they offer. They always feel incomplete though.
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
The unknown in your argument which could make you right or wrong is there hasn't really been a quality (quality being so very subjective) pve sandbox game ever released. There was UO (trammel), which was a few years into UO life when 3d was the new craze. Then we had SWG, which I never played but it sounds like it was a lot fun but had a lot of bugs.
So the million dollar question is how many of the "themepark" junkies would love the non-linear, non-story driven, open world of a sandbox game? Maybe once a few more multi-million dollar games don't live up to investors expectation some more money will be tossed at sandbox style games.
Time will tell or maybe Miss. Cleo.
It's all about player authorship vs. dev authorship of the experience.
Dev authorship = rides = themepark. Like Skyrim or WOW, you don't manipulate the world much so there's no "sand", just rides to ride on.
Player authorship means the devs have simply provided some form of "sand" for players to create whatever they want. So sandbox features like CoX's architect mode, or the freeform construction in UO.
For a game to be a sandbox, it has to mostly be characterized by sandbox features.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Wow this OP is full of fail.
Basically the argument is that people who want more "sandbox style" game mechanics are a minority of gamers. Let's break that down.
What is sandbox? In essence, it is about giving people more freedom, more choices, and more consequences to their actions. It is about creating a virtual world.
The first sandbox of course was UO. As the guinea pig, it undoubtedly had its flaws. However it clearly was - and is - a sucess and it still in operation today.
What happened since? Basically companies decided they did not want the headache of the more complex task of creating a virtual world. With WOW they discovered that people will line up and be force-fed a lower standard of player freedom. It was for economic and convenience reasons that we have the current Theme Park domination. Not because it is what players want.
The OP argument is basically "the fact that people are eating crap means they want to eat crap! Why do you want to feed them anything different?"
Remember, those sandboxers can forever make a claim that the sandbox wasn't good enough or sandbox enough or some other flaw basically to sidestep the idea. The "famous" sandbox swg wasn't supporting enough subscriptions for the powers that be and they changed it. If the game was that great and underperformed, what chance does their claim make. Naturally, they will never admit it had any subscription problems or blame it all on the power of WOW.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Embers of Caeres looks good but they have volanteers and live off of donations which has fail written all over it. Love to be proved wrong as it sounds like a good game.
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
As opposed to AAA Development studios who have "professional" Developers and Million $$ Budgets that also fail /cough**aoc/war/swtor/etc**/cough
Maybe independant "amateur" devs that arent following the status quo, working off donations from the player community and not beholden to "suits", is the way to make good games
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
Playing: Skyrim
Following: The Repopulation
I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
Can't find anything here to argue against lol, so yeah I agree with you here 100%.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
what the OP is saying is, nobody listens to rock music because all i hear is hip hop.
I'm pretty sure there's a market for good games.
I'd say if we ever had a well made sandbox that pushed all the right buttons, there's no predefined cap limiting how many fans it could have.
I'm curious, if Blizzard made a sandbox would it flop? Feel free to answer but remember it's rhetorical regardless of whether your gut tells you that you have the right answer or not. I'm not a fan, but they seem(ed) to have a good reputation for quality and a fanbase that eats up anything they put out. If I had to bet, I'd wager there would be a huge sandbox crowd if they made one.
Blizzard came to mind as prior to WoW, 500k subscribers was the top end of what MMOs could hope for. Anyone claiming in 1999 for example, that 'Massive mmo crowd is a myth' would have been dead wrong but most likely convinced that they had brilliant foresight that absolutely demanded they preach their conclusion to the masses on a forum somewhere.
I doubt there's a huge MMO sandbox fanbase at the moment (maybe 500k-1million playing sandboxes as a rough guess?), but there's absolutely the potential for one. It's pretty clear the MMO market has grown immensely since any triple A sandbox has been made. I'd be curious to see how well a fully funded triple A sandbox released in 2012 would do.
Not really it's more like saying Metal is popular, grindcore not so much.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The first mmo's were sandbox but nobody called them as such, the reason they are now called sadboxes is because mmo's went mainstream and became shallow, but some games try to remain true to the original mmo, now called the sandbox. I don't know why the OP feels he has to belittle the original mmo fans, maybe he feels his raid grinds are being threatened.
The funny thing is all you themepark fans don't even know it but mmo's are slowly reverting back to a more sandboxy format..its a slow process but we are getting there. the ignorant wont even know they are playing a sandbox when one is produced for the masses, it will be a subtle transition..but the ignorant never notice such things.