Yes, I think it is very interesting, that TSW with its skill-system and GW2 with its side-kick-system turn away from the traditional progression in MMOs. Hopefully this is the beginning of a new trend, because I am tired of the old "level up to the endgame and then grind for items" dogma.
Hate to break it to you but TSW is just that.
Damage weapon "level" is a counter to mob defense. I.E. less glances. So "level" up your weapon skills, get all the abilities, build a couple decks and grind out the gear for them. Not to mention the passives from getting your skills up damage and survivability/healing/support greatly support your character.
MMO's are about character progression. End of story.
At the same time, the use of the "glancing" mechanic for tougher mobs means that if you go back to an area where you were earlier, it's easier, but you can still get killed if you pull too many mobs. You also get xp for killing these, just not so much as the tougher mobs.
Anyway, TSW has other gameplay elements that are pretty independant of characer power. For instance the investigation quests and the sabotage quests are just as challenging after you get all the best gear in the game. You can't grind items to be a better problem solver.
Btw, for PvP TSW uses the same "boosting" mechanic as GW2.
Yes, Secret Worlds progression is exactly the same as having levels. There are tiers of skills that you cant unlock until you have so many skill points invested in them... thus restricting your choices and forcing you along certain paths during the progession. Getting a skill point is just like getting a level. The only difference here is that your progression is very minimal and it doesn't actually say 'level up'. Unlocking all the skills is exactly the same as hitting max level. It's just an illusion but if that illusion makes the game feel fresh to some people then I support it.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
I think the point in calling it levelless is that your character doesn't have levels. Sure there is progression of skills and gear, but you are kidding yourself if you say it's the exact same as levels. It's really not.
There is a progression path, for both the skills and the gear, and it does have similarities with a traditional level system as well as content that is gated by difficulty, but there are enough differences to call it levelless as well as classless.
Your character doesn't have a level. They have skills.
Your character doesn't have a set class. You have abilities. All characters have access to the same abilities.
You can argue about how close it is to levels and classes until you are blue in the face, it doesn't make them exist.
A game can have progression and still not have classes or levels. Levels are a number that you associate your characters combat capability with. That number is not present in this game.
Classes are character archetypes that decide what abilities, stats, gear and roles your character can utilize. If you want to call the weapons classes, fine go ahead. But all characters are all classes in this game. Everyone has access to every weapon and every skill in the game. There is only one class, and that class is "any character."
This is a pretty weird argument to watch, btw. I feel like people are really stretching their arguments here.
It doesn't matter what you want to call it. There is no number in game that signifies your character's level. Just as there is no character that is limited to a specific class.
Just because a game doesn't have levels doesn't mean it can't have other forms of progression!
Yes, Secret Worlds progression is exactly the same as having levels. There are tiers of skills that you cant unlock until you have so many skill points invested in them... thus restricting your choices and forcing you along certain paths during the progession. Getting a skill point is just like getting a level. The only difference here is that your progression is very minimal and it doesn't actually say 'level up'. Unlocking all the skills is exactly the same as hitting max level. It's just an illusion but if that illusion makes the game feel fresh to some people then I support it.
For give me but These 2 statement here show you have not played our lock understanding.
First, skills and abilities are two different things. A person with nothing else to do ie has all the abilities and all the profivientcies maxed out is not inherrently better than a person with everything half done, ir ever 1/4rt done. Do you need better gear to than starter gear to kill the hardest monsters? Yes you do, however in that starter gear you still CAN hit the hatdest monster.
Second, A good player with a good build, but bad gear can skip on to harder areas were as a bad player with a bad build and good gear may struggle with the content the player skipped. You choose your path and set your own difficulty.
There is no way to quantify what "level" you are. Sure after about 600 hours of xp gaining game play you will have learned everything. What about the 599 hours in between?
Any mmorpg that has progression in the sense that there are weapons, armor, gear, items, anything that is better (gold sword is better than silver sword) has to have "levels".
Levels are a blocking mechanic to make sure that players don't obtian the most powerfull items right from the beggining. Take away the exp bar, replace it with using your skills and weapons a certain amount of time before "leveling up" and it's the same thing. Hidden or not, levels exist in any progression rpg.
Also, funny thing is, TSW didn't have levels (ranks) along time ago. The devs said on the forums that in the CB, they didn't use ranks. You know what happened? Exactly what i said. Players with better gear gave those items to new players, allowing them to bypass content. So, the necessary block mechanics where added.
Is this game level-less? Yes it is
Is it 100% level-less? No, because that's impossible. Levels, ranks, tiers, hidden, have to exist.
The difference between normal levels is that your character doesn't have stats that grow with you. This game has "levels" like almost all mmorpg, just placed in a different way. But that's no different from other "level-less" games.
I agree it's classless. But you could just say there is only one class, if you looked at it that way. I still think it's a complete illusion in the level area though... but I'm not against it at all. It seems slightly different and it definately chances the way you explore the areas. Instead of going to the 1-10 area you have to head out whereever you want.. you might not be able to do it but that's all part of the fun.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
There is no way to quantify what "level" you are. Sure after about 600 hours of xp gaining game play you will have learned everything. What about the 599 hours in between?
The quality level of your gear quantifies what level you are. Also, build choices are in traditional leveling systems as well, not all level 20s are exactly the same in power. It depends what passive and active skills they focus on as well and what gear they have.. just like TSW. TSW differs because gear and skill choices are not level restricted and you can change skill choices at free will. Other than those two things.. I really don't see the difference. You have to do the same thing as 'leveling' to get access to all your skills.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
It is a lot more important that a system is flexible and fun than if it have levels or not...
If you more or less have a few choices that all players choose the whole mechanics make the game boring and predictable.
If on the other hand you can make almost unique flexible build the game is a winner in my book (at least mechanic wise).
Guildwars (1) have a really flexible system that allows you to make amizingly many interesting builds and it have levels. Darkfall on the other hand have no levels but create players of a few different templates as you skill up.
If you play the game to enjoy the story it tells then character progression will happen as a byproduct and be nice little perk as your character grows.
If you sit in front of the computer to grind out skills then all it will be is grinding out skills.
Alot of players these days suffer from "keeping up with the jones". They see others that have accomplished more and they feel like they have to compete with them for whatever reason.
I don't think I can go back to a mmo with levels. Just like I can't go back to an mmo with nothing but quest text. The traditional leveling systems in mmos where you start at 1 and work/rush/grind your way to cap seems old an pointless.
I'm sorry to hear that you're now limited in the types of games you're able to enjoy. Personally, I don't have this problem.
If a game has well-designed progression system with levels, I'd much rather play that than a poorly executed game with level-less progression. If the game has well-written text, I'd rather read that than listen to terrible voiceovers (like TOR).
That being said, I like both the progression system and the writing in TSW, so I'm enjoying it quite a bit.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
I don't think I can go back to a mmo with levels. Just like I can't go back to an mmo with nothing but quest text. The traditional leveling systems in mmos where you start at 1 and work/rush/grind your way to cap seems old an pointless.
I would never limit myself like this. It all depends on the quality of the game and if I find it fun.
Originally posted by Nethriil So battlegrounds boost you up where you can use any skills? So u can make any deck?
No you have to earn you abilities.
This is correct. It doesn't take more than a few hours to get your first 7 active + 7 passive abilities and these are as powerful as the later abilities, but the builds you get aren't as advanced. For instance it's harder to build a kiteing deck with the first abilities you get, but the damage the deck deals can be as good.
It's not classless, there may be no defined classes but you could have multiple builds which are the same which in effect will create a class. That class may not be defined by the game but it will be there. Just because you can change class on the fly also doesn't mean there are no classes It's not leveless just because the character doesn't have a displayed level. If there is progression of any sort there is level. By all means state their are no traditional classes and their are no traditional levels, but just because things aren't visible to the user doesn't mean they aren't there.
Originally posted by dubyahite I think the point in calling it levelless is that your character doesn't have levels. Sure there is progression of skills and gear, but you are kidding yourself if you say it's the exact same as levels. It's really not.
There is a progression path, for both the skills and the gear, and it does have similarities with a traditional level system as well as content that is gated by difficulty, but there are enough differences to call it levelless as well as classless.
Your character doesn't have a level. They have skills.
Your character doesn't have a set class. You have abilities. All characters have access to the same abilities.
You can argue about how close it is to levels and classes until you are blue in the face, it doesn't make them exist.
A game can have progression and still not have classes or levels. Levels are a number that you associate your characters combat capability with. That number is not present in this game.
Classes are character archetypes that decide what abilities, stats, gear and roles your character can utilize. If you want to call the weapons classes, fine go ahead. But all characters are all classes in this game. Everyone has access to every weapon and every skill in the game. There is only one class, and that class is "any character."
This is a pretty weird argument to watch, btw. I feel like people are really stretching their arguments here.
It doesn't matter what you want to call it. There is no number in game that signifies your character's level. Just as there is no character that is limited to a specific class.
Just because a game doesn't have levels doesn't mean it can't have other forms of progression!
After another reread this post deserves to in the OP.
It's not classless, there may be no defined classes but you could have multiple builds which are the same which in effect will create a class. That class may not be defined by the game but it will be there. Just because you can change class on the fly also doesn't mean there are no classes It's not leveless just because the character doesn't have a displayed level. If there is progression of any sort there is level. By all means state their are no traditional classes and their are no traditional levels, but just because things aren't visible to the user doesn't mean they aren't there.
What? Too Existential, that's definately reaching. Its more about having skills equiped for specific weapons and the freedom to pick and choose. By level, if you mean you earn skill and ability points that open up bonuses and new skills ... no thats still the whole "what is is" arguement. There isn't levels and there isn't classes.
It's not classless, there may be no defined classes but you could have multiple builds which are the same which in effect will create a class. That class may not be defined by the game but it will be there. Just because you can change class on the fly also doesn't mean there are no classes It's not leveless just because the character doesn't have a displayed level. If there is progression of any sort there is level. By all means state their are no traditional classes and their are no traditional levels, but just because things aren't visible to the user doesn't mean they aren't there.
By your logic it is impossible for a game not to have classes, because ultimately it can be argued that whatever a player does at any given moment defines his "class". So, if you initially attack someone from a distance with a rifle, you are playing as a "ranged class", but as soon as you run up to him and hit him with an axe, you have "switched to a melee class".
Similarly, it can be argued that any game that has character progression automatically has "levels", no matter how the mechanism is hidden.
But those arguments can just be made for the sake of arguing, and don't really have any relevance to what the OP is trying to say.
I want to play an mmorpg that doesn't have atrocious combat and animations . Thus TSW is out. And TSW does have "levels" - as if you go into the persistent PVP zone and fight an enemy who's has progressed getting tons of outer ring skills vs your early ones only you get abuse silly. Simply calling it no levels but skills is just a different name - you still spend time to unlock better abilities and weapons and become more powerful thus you are "leveling".
TSW is a great thempark game. I pre-ordered it and have played many sessions of closed beta. But it does have levels, they are just masked into another form. Your grinding AP for the most part.
Whether it is levels, skill points, or stat points on gear, progression is pretty much the same & linear in most games. I'm sorry you can't tell the difference. A dog by any other name is still a dog
Wait, perhaps you still don't get it, let's provide an example.
Game 1: Every level you gain +1 strength bonus that has the fortunate biproduct of increasing your melee damage.
Game 2: No levels, but a class system. In this case we choose a melee class which gains stat points through experience in which you apply to stats, we choose str +1 because it will increase our base melee damage for our hypothetical melee class
Game 3: No levels no classes! But the content provides you with gear at appropriate times. At the end of one of these content runs we gain a cheat piece of awesome str +1, which therefore increases your base melee damage which allows you to tackle the next content run which has a head band of uberness str +1.
Game 4: No levels no classes! You choose your own skill builds. For our hypothetical melee class we pick the skill line that focuses on melee damage, the first tier of skills contain a passive buff of +1 str which in turn increases our base melee damage.
Do you notice a pattern? The job of the game ruleset team is to make the progression either extremely transparent, or completely hidden, but in the end you get the same result in one form or another.
Edit: Don't get it twisted. I have no qualms with the systems in place, some are pretty creative, but to praise one and bash another when in the end you get the same result seems quite silly.
You can't quantify level in TSW because the don't exist. *bangs head on desk* You can say inexpirience, more experienced maybe... Just because I composed music longer ( i don't compose music...) doesn't mean I can hold a candle to that kid who composes symphonies while walking down the street though.
I don't care one way or the other. Doesn't bother me if a game has levels and does nothing for me if a game doesn't. Besides levels or no levels your chararacter still advances via itemization and gaining skill points. Which pretty much seems just like leveling to me but whatever works for people.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Comments
At the same time, the use of the "glancing" mechanic for tougher mobs means that if you go back to an area where you were earlier, it's easier, but you can still get killed if you pull too many mobs. You also get xp for killing these, just not so much as the tougher mobs.
Anyway, TSW has other gameplay elements that are pretty independant of characer power. For instance the investigation quests and the sabotage quests are just as challenging after you get all the best gear in the game. You can't grind items to be a better problem solver.
Btw, for PvP TSW uses the same "boosting" mechanic as GW2.
Yes, Secret Worlds progression is exactly the same as having levels. There are tiers of skills that you cant unlock until you have so many skill points invested in them... thus restricting your choices and forcing you along certain paths during the progession. Getting a skill point is just like getting a level. The only difference here is that your progression is very minimal and it doesn't actually say 'level up'. Unlocking all the skills is exactly the same as hitting max level. It's just an illusion but if that illusion makes the game feel fresh to some people then I support it.
There is a progression path, for both the skills and the gear, and it does have similarities with a traditional level system as well as content that is gated by difficulty, but there are enough differences to call it levelless as well as classless.
Your character doesn't have a level. They have skills.
Your character doesn't have a set class. You have abilities. All characters have access to the same abilities.
You can argue about how close it is to levels and classes until you are blue in the face, it doesn't make them exist.
A game can have progression and still not have classes or levels. Levels are a number that you associate your characters combat capability with. That number is not present in this game.
Classes are character archetypes that decide what abilities, stats, gear and roles your character can utilize. If you want to call the weapons classes, fine go ahead. But all characters are all classes in this game. Everyone has access to every weapon and every skill in the game. There is only one class, and that class is "any character."
This is a pretty weird argument to watch, btw. I feel like people are really stretching their arguments here.
It doesn't matter what you want to call it. There is no number in game that signifies your character's level. Just as there is no character that is limited to a specific class.
Just because a game doesn't have levels doesn't mean it can't have other forms of progression!
Shadow's Hand Guild
Open recruitment for
The Secret World - Dragons
Planetside 2 - Terran Republic
Tera - Dragonfall Server
http://www.shadowshand.com
For give me but These 2 statement here show you have not played our lock understanding.
First, skills and abilities are two different things. A person with nothing else to do ie has all the abilities and all the profivientcies maxed out is not inherrently better than a person with everything half done, ir ever 1/4rt done. Do you need better gear to than starter gear to kill the hardest monsters? Yes you do, however in that starter gear you still CAN hit the hatdest monster.
Second, A good player with a good build, but bad gear can skip on to harder areas were as a bad player with a bad build and good gear may struggle with the content the player skipped. You choose your path and set your own difficulty.
There is no way to quantify what "level" you are. Sure after about 600 hours of xp gaining game play you will have learned everything. What about the 599 hours in between?
edit- above poster said it very well.
Any mmorpg that has progression in the sense that there are weapons, armor, gear, items, anything that is better (gold sword is better than silver sword) has to have "levels".
Levels are a blocking mechanic to make sure that players don't obtian the most powerfull items right from the beggining. Take away the exp bar, replace it with using your skills and weapons a certain amount of time before "leveling up" and it's the same thing. Hidden or not, levels exist in any progression rpg.
Also, funny thing is, TSW didn't have levels (ranks) along time ago. The devs said on the forums that in the CB, they didn't use ranks. You know what happened? Exactly what i said. Players with better gear gave those items to new players, allowing them to bypass content. So, the necessary block mechanics where added.
Is this game level-less? Yes it is
Is it 100% level-less? No, because that's impossible. Levels, ranks, tiers, hidden, have to exist.
The difference between normal levels is that your character doesn't have stats that grow with you. This game has "levels" like almost all mmorpg, just placed in a different way. But that's no different from other "level-less" games.
I agree it's classless. But you could just say there is only one class, if you looked at it that way. I still think it's a complete illusion in the level area though... but I'm not against it at all. It seems slightly different and it definately chances the way you explore the areas. Instead of going to the 1-10 area you have to head out whereever you want.. you might not be able to do it but that's all part of the fun.
The quality level of your gear quantifies what level you are. Also, build choices are in traditional leveling systems as well, not all level 20s are exactly the same in power. It depends what passive and active skills they focus on as well and what gear they have.. just like TSW. TSW differs because gear and skill choices are not level restricted and you can change skill choices at free will. Other than those two things.. I really don't see the difference. You have to do the same thing as 'leveling' to get access to all your skills.
It is a lot more important that a system is flexible and fun than if it have levels or not...
If you more or less have a few choices that all players choose the whole mechanics make the game boring and predictable.
If on the other hand you can make almost unique flexible build the game is a winner in my book (at least mechanic wise).
Guildwars (1) have a really flexible system that allows you to make amizingly many interesting builds and it have levels. Darkfall on the other hand have no levels but create players of a few different templates as you skill up.
Whatever. I just want to play a good game. The mechanics are irrelevant, so long as they work well together.
If you play the game to enjoy the story it tells then character progression will happen as a byproduct and be nice little perk as your character grows.
If you sit in front of the computer to grind out skills then all it will be is grinding out skills.
Alot of players these days suffer from "keeping up with the jones". They see others that have accomplished more and they feel like they have to compete with them for whatever reason.
I'm sorry to hear that you're now limited in the types of games you're able to enjoy. Personally, I don't have this problem.
If a game has well-designed progression system with levels, I'd much rather play that than a poorly executed game with level-less progression. If the game has well-written text, I'd rather read that than listen to terrible voiceovers (like TOR).
That being said, I like both the progression system and the writing in TSW, so I'm enjoying it quite a bit.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
I would never limit myself like this. It all depends on the quality of the game and if I find it fun.
No you have to earn you abilities.
This is correct. It doesn't take more than a few hours to get your first 7 active + 7 passive abilities and these are as powerful as the later abilities, but the builds you get aren't as advanced. For instance it's harder to build a kiteing deck with the first abilities you get, but the damage the deck deals can be as good.
The boosting works with your attack power/hp
It's not classless, there may be no defined classes but you could have multiple builds which are the same which in effect will create a class. That class may not be defined by the game but it will be there. Just because you can change class on the fly also doesn't mean there are no classes It's not leveless just because the character doesn't have a displayed level. If there is progression of any sort there is level. By all means state their are no traditional classes and their are no traditional levels, but just because things aren't visible to the user doesn't mean they aren't there.
After another reread this post deserves to in the OP.
What? Too Existential, that's definately reaching. Its more about having skills equiped for specific weapons and the freedom to pick and choose. By level, if you mean you earn skill and ability points that open up bonuses and new skills ... no thats still the whole "what is is" arguement. There isn't levels and there isn't classes.
By your logic it is impossible for a game not to have classes, because ultimately it can be argued that whatever a player does at any given moment defines his "class". So, if you initially attack someone from a distance with a rifle, you are playing as a "ranged class", but as soon as you run up to him and hit him with an axe, you have "switched to a melee class".
Similarly, it can be argued that any game that has character progression automatically has "levels", no matter how the mechanism is hidden.
But those arguments can just be made for the sake of arguing, and don't really have any relevance to what the OP is trying to say.
And TSW does have "levels" - as if you go into the persistent PVP zone and fight an enemy who's has progressed getting tons of outer ring skills vs your early ones only you get abuse silly.
Simply calling it no levels but skills is just a different name - you still spend time to unlock better abilities and weapons and become more powerful thus you are "leveling".
TSW is a great thempark game. I pre-ordered it and have played many sessions of closed beta. But it does have levels, they are just masked into another form. Your grinding AP for the most part.
BigCountry | Head Hunters | www.wefarmpeople.com
I guess the OP is easily fooled.
Whether it is levels, skill points, or stat points on gear, progression is pretty much the same & linear in most games. I'm sorry you can't tell the difference. A dog by any other name is still a dog
Wait, perhaps you still don't get it, let's provide an example.
Game 1: Every level you gain +1 strength bonus that has the fortunate biproduct of increasing your melee damage.
Game 2: No levels, but a class system. In this case we choose a melee class which gains stat points through experience in which you apply to stats, we choose str +1 because it will increase our base melee damage for our hypothetical melee class
Game 3: No levels no classes! But the content provides you with gear at appropriate times. At the end of one of these content runs we gain a cheat piece of awesome str +1, which therefore increases your base melee damage which allows you to tackle the next content run which has a head band of uberness str +1.
Game 4: No levels no classes! You choose your own skill builds. For our hypothetical melee class we pick the skill line that focuses on melee damage, the first tier of skills contain a passive buff of +1 str which in turn increases our base melee damage.
Do you notice a pattern? The job of the game ruleset team is to make the progression either extremely transparent, or completely hidden, but in the end you get the same result in one form or another.
Edit: Don't get it twisted. I have no qualms with the systems in place, some are pretty creative, but to praise one and bash another when in the end you get the same result seems quite silly.
You can't quantify level in TSW because the don't exist. *bangs head on desk* You can say inexpirience, more experienced maybe... Just because I composed music longer ( i don't compose music...) doesn't mean I can hold a candle to that kid who composes symphonies while walking down the street though.
I don't care one way or the other. Doesn't bother me if a game has levels and does nothing for me if a game doesn't. Besides levels or no levels your chararacter still advances via itemization and gaining skill points. Which pretty much seems just like leveling to me but whatever works for people.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.