It's easy logic to me, a game is leveless if everything is available to you from the start. If there is any progression involved either via xp, money, gear or anything that involves 'unlocking' any sort of attribute of the game. Then the game has levels. Most games have levels, which is why I was intrigued when they stated TSW was leveless. But you dig deep enough and it's just levels done a bit different.
Likewise classes exist if there is the possibility any two people can have the same build either intentionally or unintentionally. They can pick the same skills, wear the same gear, etc etc. Just because that class isn't defined by the game doesn't mean classes don't or will not exist. They only way classes won't exist is if things are unique to each character. For example they have their own unique set of tailor made skills to select from and not a general pool.
Fair enough with TSW you neither have traditional levels nor classes. But to call it leveless when there is progression and to call it classless when multiple people can adopt the same build, is just wrong. I also accept that utilising MMO terminology you could class this game in that vain, but again to me the terminology does not fit in this instance. TSW has levels and has classes.
exactly the point I'm trying to argue not sure why people find this such a hard concept.
Because people say 'levels' but at the same time mean different things.
Why is that so hard to understand?
It should be obvious by now to anyone using half his/her brains that when some people say 'levels', they refer to the character level system as seen in most MMO's as well as many RPG's, where your character gains levels and stats and other stuff rise accordingly, while other people say levels and refer to any mechanical progression based system used in MMO's and other games.
The 1st group use the term 'levels' and can make a distinction between the MMO's that use character levels like WoW, EQ, DAoC, LotrO etc and the MMO's that don't use character levels but other means of progression, like EVE, TSW etc.
The 2nd group uses the term 'levels' for any kind of progression mechanic that doesn't open up all content and options right from the start, and to them all MMO's have 'levels', one way or the other.
That 2nd interpretation imo makes the whole point moot of clarifying the differences between 1 progression system and another, but ok, to each their own.
The rest is just semantics, or people purposely trying to not understand other people for whatever reason
I doubt they'll care if you call it levels, skill levels or a quantized power approximation, there's an undeniable progression that gates content that's not as far removed from level based games as some of you would have them believe. In practice it might as well have been traditional levels as the functionality in game was very similar.
I can't walk in to higher level areas in my first 10 minutes in game and expect to be useful or have an enjoyable experience until I level up my skills. I can't equip certain gear, as it's also level restricted, until I've leveled up skills. Paint it in a pretty light as much as you like, but the second anyone comes in contact with the actual mechanics of the game, your very misleading version of it dissipates.
This has been stated multiple times in this thread, by myself and others.
You can say it has no levels but gear progression functions as levels.
Why is it so important to pretend something about this game that is functionally not true?
It has many positive attributes, but anyone who plays this game for more than 4-5 hours will realize that you need to level gear talents in order to equip the items which enable you to do the harder content as you progress through the game.
so what level are you when, and while progressing? I'll be waiting for your answer.
Progession is not levels. Circle, square, and triangle are all shapes. One is not the other though. Stop trying to put square pegs in triangle holes....
1. True level-less = No blockers at all. Everyoneis 100% equal right from the start.
2. Progression = Level "style". You have blockers that keep you out of content, weapons, etc. Almost all mmorpg are here.
3. Level based mmo = There's progression (2). Also, your character has a number that details is power and that point of content. That's a level.
4. Level-less = There's progression (2). Your character does not have a pure defining number, but there's other mechanics that detail that required progression, since it is required.
TSW = 4. Character doesn't have stats, but ranks and gear are the method of calculating progression. It's not has linear and strict has a normal level, but stil behaves like one since it's not true level-less.
1. True level-less = No blockers at all. Everyoneis 100% equal right from the start.
2. Progression = Level "style". You have blockers that keep you out of content, weapons, etc. Almost all mmorpg are here.
3. Level based mmo = There's progression (2). Also, your character has a number that details is power and that point of content. That's a level.
4. Level-less = There's progression (2). Your character does not have a pure defining number, but there's other mechanics that detail that required progression, since it is required.
TSW = 4. Character doesn't have stats, but ranks and gear are the method of calculating progression. It's not has linear and strict has a normal level, but stil behaves like one since it's not true level-less.
Also
Levels = "you are that level!" there are systems in alot of MMORPGs that let you level down to play with a new starting friend, but you are still a power house compaired to your friend and the level and in most cases you cannot redo the quest you have done, so you friend is still questing alone, with just a guard.
TSW = you can change gear and spect and now you are = to your friend and building a new spect, and can redo the quest with them as well.
1. True level-less = No blockers at all. Everyoneis 100% equal right from the start.
2. Progression = Level "style". You have blockers that keep you out of content, weapons, etc. Almost all mmorpg are here.
3. Level based mmo = There's progression (2). Also, your character has a number that details is power and that point of content. That's a level.
4. Level-less = There's progression (2). Your character does not have a pure defining number, but there's other mechanics that detail that required progression, since it is required.
TSW = 4. Character doesn't have stats, but ranks and gear are the method of calculating progression. It's not has linear and strict has a normal level, but stil behaves like one since it's not true level-less.
Also
Levels = "you are that level!" there are systems in alot of MMORPGs that let you level down to play with a new starting friend, but you are still a power house compaired to your friend and the level and in most cases you cannot redo the quest you have done, so you friend is still questing alone, with just a guard.
TSW = you can change gear and spect and now you are = to your friend and building a new spect, and can redo the quest with them as well.
1. True level-less = No blockers at all. Everyoneis 100% equal right from the start.
2. Progression = Level "style". You have blockers that keep you out of content, weapons, etc. Almost all mmorpg are here.
3. Level based mmo = There's progression (2). Also, your character has a number that details is power and that point of content. That's a level.
4. Level-less = There's progression (2). Your character does not have a pure defining number, but there's other mechanics that detail that required progression, since it is required.
TSW = 4. Character doesn't have stats, but ranks and gear are the method of calculating progression. It's not has linear and strict has a normal level, but stil behaves like one since it's not true level-less.
Also
Levels = "you are that level!" there are systems in alot of MMORPGs that let you level down to play with a new starting friend, but you are still a power house compaired to your friend and the level and in most cases you cannot redo the quest you have done, so you friend is still questing alone, with just a guard.
TSW = you can change gear and spect and now you are = to your friend and building a new spect, and can redo the quest with them as well.
That's true Arkain. I haven't checked out enough info on crafting and material etc.
But, the idea is that you can craft anything has long has you have the tool kits and quantity of raw materials. So, if i have a QL10 (not competly sure about the QL levels) Desert Eagle made for critic damage, i can just craft a pair of QL1 or QL5 pistols with the same stat distribution. Also, there's suppose to be a way to change weapon apperance too.
Therefore, if this is completly possible, if rank and QL are the version of levels in TSW, we can controll our own levels has we desire. ALOT of grinding for this, i'm sure
You know that takes about 600 hours of good game play? There is now way in the world would I try to gain all the abilities, nor would I ever have a reason to. That's just silly. In that scenario you speak of the person with all of everything will hit no harder than a guy with a few weapons partially completed.
Well.. they claim it does. How much actual time it will take will be another thing. It IS however the primary progression of the game; you will not reach your characters full potential until you lock all abilities.
Most people who play the game will either play until the content is exhausted, or until they reach that phase. It's like saying that people won't hit max level in Tera, GW2, WoW etc.. it's kind of ridiculous, unless you assume that people will be so horribly bored of the game that they will stop playing it before "600" hours.
The wheel is the end-game content, if the in-game content is exhausted before you unlock it all, which makes senes entirely since most content is repeatable.
For a subscription-based game, 600 hours isn't even all that much. People can hit upwards of 200 in a single month, so .. saying this game has less than 3 months of playing time isn't very encouraging.
Btw, Funcom never said they had 600 hours of quest content. They have said something along the lines of 200 hours, or 100 hours if you skip* a lot of content (a lot is optional). At the same time there is lots of content that isn't story based:
9 dungeons with 3 difficulties
9 (?) Lairs with summonable Lair bosses (3+1?)
Region bosses (9+?)
Minigames
Persistant PvP
You also have elements that keeps the game interesting like the horizontal progression through abilities and the gear customization for the builds you create. The assorted builds you can create with this is useful for nightmare-mode dungeons and for PvP.
So, if you want to try out all the content in the game you are looking at a lot more than 200 hours, all depending on what type of player you are. It's not like in SWTOR where it really seemed the endgame was something they tacked on at the end of the story content.
*People who rush and skip content to finish the main story as fast as possible and then complain about lack of content are pretty lame in my eyes. Some might do this because they are in the game for the PvP or dungeons though.
Correction, you are dead wrong. Funcom has been working on this project since 2002, it's former name was the entire world online then Cabal to TSW as we know it. Funny because in the gazet in montreal ( News Paper ) the press spoke with Funcom at their studios and claimed that the game had well over 600 hrs of quests, even boasting that TSW has more quests then WoW, and for some reason yeah I believe them because I play the beta of the game and I was in game for 50-60 hours in the Kingsmouth area and I did'nt finish every single quests, and how can you say that a number of 100-200 hours of questing when you have puzzles to solve and cluse to dig up that are literaly in several books including the bible, heck one quest took me like 2 hours to figure out LOL. I will comment on one more thing, you mention end game, funny I find the " End game " Better then WoW so seems like your just talking crap, my suggestion to you, play the game, and for the rest of you guys that are on the fence, don't listen to people like this felllow here , or even myself, try it and enjoy it or hate it whatever, but my advice does carry some weight, take it or leave it, but when I play this game is FAR from being a item grind ( Oh boy ) how many times have we heard this? Shit even in the Phantasy star series that dates back to 1989-1998 even had some sort of grind, this is'nt a korean grindfest nor is it like the grind of the good old days of Everquest, it's fun challenging and can be a complete blast for people who enjoy history, horror, drama and the supernatural, but if you are easy frustrated by puzzles and that sort of thing I would either stay clear of it or ask for help.
My two cents
It sounds like you think I dislike the game and dislike the (end)game... I actually got the lifetime subscription.
Originally posted by Aerowyn Originally posted by fallenlords It's easy logic to me, a game is leveless if everything is available to you from the start. If there is any progression involved either via xp, money, gear or anything that involves 'unlocking' any sort of attribute of the game. Then the game has levels. Most games have levels, which is why I was intrigued when they stated TSW was leveless. But you dig deep enough and it's just levels done a bit different.Likewise classes exist if there is the possibility any two people can have the same build either intentionally or unintentionally. They can pick the same skills, wear the same gear, etc etc. Just because that class isn't defined by the game doesn't mean classes don't or will not exist. They only way classes won't exist is if things are unique to each character. For example they have their own unique set of tailor made skills to select from and not a general pool.Fair enough with TSW you neither have traditional levels nor classes. But to call it leveless when there is progression and to call it classless when multiple people can adopt the same build, is just wrong. I also accept that utilising MMO terminology you could class this game in that vain, but again to me the terminology does not fit in this instance. TSW has levels and has classes.
exactly the point I'm trying to argue not sure why people find this such a hard concept.
Because people say 'levels' but at the same time mean different things.
Why is that so hard to understand?
It should be obvious by now to anyone using half his/her brains that when some people say 'levels', they refer to the character level system as seen in most MMO's as well as many RPG's, where your character gains levels and stats and other stuff rise accordingly, while other people say levels and refer to any mechanical progression based system used in MMO's and other games.
The 1st group use the term 'levels' and can make a distinction between the MMO's that use character levels like WoW, EQ, DAoC, LotrO etc and the MMO's that don't use character levels but other means of progression, like EVE, TSW etc.
The 2nd group uses the term 'levels' for any kind of progression mechanic that doesn't open up all content and options right from the start, and to them all MMO's have 'levels', one way or the other.
That 2nd interpretation imo makes the whole point moot of clarifying the differences between 1 progression system and another, but ok, to each their own.
The rest is just semantics, or people purposely trying to not understand other people for whatever reason
the whole point is the game's zone progression is set up the same as most other MMOs. The way the game was designed was for you to follow the story from zone a to zone b to zone c. Progression in the game was designed around this and that's the point. Everything else though is just arguing for the sake of arguing I suppose
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
When I played I was absolutely restricted to certain content until I put time in raising skills. Just as in other level based MMOs. When my wife wanted to level a new skill, we had to leave the area we'd been in and go back to the low level area as her character was useless in the higher level area we'd previously been in.
If you want to argue over semantics regarding what is and isn't a level in the traditional sense, that's fine, you can have that. But pretending there is no linear development is just delusional and helps no one, certainly not future potential players who will discover within the first hour of the game that content is absolutely gated by progression, as is gear, much in the way most level based MMOs are.
I doubt they'll care if you call it levels, skill levels or a quantized power approximation, there's an undeniable progression that gates content that's not as far removed from level based games as some of you would have them believe. In practice it might as well have been traditional levels as the functionality in game was very similar.
I can't walk in to higher level areas in my first 10 minutes in game and expect to be useful or have an enjoyable experience until I level up my skills. I can't equip certain gear, as it's also level restricted, until I've leveled up skills. Paint it in a pretty light as much as you like, but the second anyone comes in contact with the actual mechanics of the game, your very misleading version of it dissipates.
you don't seem to understand the skill system tbh, a closer approximation would probably be Eve, there are no restrictions bar skills required to use certain items, if you for instance, trained up on projectile weapons, on a cruiser, and then decided you wanted to use lasers, you would have to put in the same kind of 'training' again in order to be able to do as much as you could do prior to switching, forget levels, this is really about ability, but like Eve itself, its a hard concept for some people to grasp.
Thanks, but obviously I understand it enough to justify my claims and to clearly see we were essentially taking part in a 'levelling' experience, as you haven't disputed a single assertion I made - only implied I didn't understand it.
Which is a bit of a stretch - trying to convince someone they were restricted to certain content because they didn't understand the skill system rather than because the game is based around the fact that higher skill level allows you to take on higher skill level areas and use higher skill level gear ( I mean, come on, the requirements are right ON the gear, why deny they have a clear progression system laid out?).
When my skills were a higher level I was able to take on tougher content, true? This leads to an experience that's incredibly similar to a traditional level based game, explain how that's not the case while sticking to facts.
The fact that there are lower level areas and higher level areas should be a clear indication to anyone with their eyes open that areas are segregated by mob level, and arranged based around a linear character progression. Or do you dispute that? We were certainly moved into tougher areas as we levelled up our skills, did you go to the tougher areas right away, or did you have to raise your skills first?
Why people are straining so hard to disguise this is beyond me - the game is what it is, like it for what it is or don't, labelling it shouldn't be so important. The overall experience is very similar to a linear level based progression system, with content that is gated by how much time you've spent levelling skills.
EvEs skill system isn't a hard concept to grasp (there are also ton of great guides available for newer players), it may take new players more time to adjust to EvE than it would for them to adjust to TSW, for example, as it's a fairly different experience, but neither system is really, as you apparently found it, 'hard to grasp'.
I doubt they'll care if you call it levels, skill levels or a quantized power approximation, there's an undeniable progression that gates content that's not as far removed from level based games as some of you would have them believe. In practice it might as well have been traditional levels as the functionality in game was very similar.
I can't walk in to higher level areas in my first 10 minutes in game and expect to be useful or have an enjoyable experience until I level up my skills. I can't equip certain gear, as it's also level restricted, until I've leveled up skills. Paint it in a pretty light as much as you like, but the second anyone comes in contact with the actual mechanics of the game, your very misleading version of it dissipates.
This has been stated multiple times in this thread, by myself and others.
You can say it has no levels but gear progression functions as levels.
Why is it so important to pretend something about this game that is functionally not true?
It has many positive attributes, but anyone who plays this game for more than 4-5 hours will realize that you need to level gear talents in order to equip the items which enable you to do the harder content as you progress through the game.
so what level are you when, and while progressing? I'll be waiting for your answer.
Progession is not levels. Circle, square, and triangle are all shapes. One is not the other though. Stop trying to put square pegs in triangle holes....
Re-read my post, I never once said I gained levels, I said it's a skill based system that plays an awful lot like a traditional level based system.
Don't put words in peoples mouths for the sake of setting up a strawman argument, it's weak.
I also pointed out it doesn't matter what you call it - over all you earn exp to spend points that allows you to take on tougher areas that you wouldn't be able to without having earned exp to raise your characters effectiveness.
Originally posted by fallenlords If there is any progression involved either via xp, money, gear or anything that involves 'unlocking' any sort of attribute of the game. Then the game has levels.
Any game with progression equals levels? I'm going to play along. So progression, and leveling are interchangeable? Funny when I look up those two words, not only are their definitions very different, they are not listed as synonyms.
It's human nature to relate new things to past experience. This is how we understand the world in general. This gives us a false impression of the world around us, but it helps us to get by.
You don't start day one with everything available to you, all skills, all gear and an unlimited amount of currency to spend. If you can progress through a game without a single change to the character then the game might be leveless. I say might because the story/game itself may be split into levels. Some games can be hacked to make them leveless. The use of trainers/cheats and mods to config files may open otherwise locked requirements. But generally most games involve some sort of player progression and in order for the player to progress they have to raise their 'level' of something.
In order to relate the use of this terminology to what I have seen in the past, I find it quite acceptable to state that TSW does not have traditional levels or classes in an MMO sense. But to say it is leveless or classless and to utilise that as marketing blurb makes you look closer at the mechanics. If it truly was leveless and classless, in the real sense, you are talking this is a pivotal moment. This isn't the case, this is the same old stuff reworked from a different angle. I did actually think the innovation in TSW was centered around this area, by innovation I mean something we haven't seen before in any form. Which I though was part of the reason it had taken so long to bring this game to market. Ten years to just do the same old stuff with a different setting, big deal.
Originally posted by fallenlords If there is any progression involved either via xp, money, gear or anything that involves 'unlocking' any sort of attribute of the game. Then the game has levels.
Any game with progression equals levels? I'm going to play along. So progression, and leveling are interchangeable? Funny when I look up those two words, not only are their definitions very different, they are not listed as synonyms.
It's human nature to relate new things to past experience. This is how we understand the world in general. This gives us a false impression of the world around us, but it helps us to get by.
You don't start day one with everything available to you, all skills, all gear and an unlimited amount of currency to spend. If you can progress through a game without a single change to the character then the game might be leveless. I say might because the story/game itself may be split into levels. Some games can be hacked to make them leveless. The use of trainers/cheats and mods to config files may open otherwise locked requirements. But generally most games involve some sort of player progression and in order for the player to progress they have to raise their 'level' of something.
In order to relate the use of this terminology to what I have seen in the past, I find it quite acceptable to state that TSW does not have traditional levels or classes in an MMO sense. But to say it is leveless or classless and to utilise that as marketing blurb makes you look closer at the mechanics. If it truly was leveless and classless, in the real sense, you are talking this is a pivotal moment. This isn't the case, this is the same old stuff reworked from a different angle. I did actually think the innovation in TSW was centered around this area, by innovation I mean something we haven't seen before in any form. Which I though was part of the reason it had taken so long to bring this game to market. Ten years to just do the same old stuff with a different setting, big deal.
I find myself confused like a hamster in a food-less maze without levels. I guess it's kind of a "How do I know if I am ready?" thing.
When I was playing Star Wars Galaxies in 2004 (Pre-CU), there were simple, easy answers to such questions. If I equipped a sword (with no Brawler skills), a mob conned red to me. So I put away the blade and equipped a laser rifle instead; since I had skills with Marksmanship in general, and Rifles in particular, that same mob now conned blue. Neither the mob nor I had changed, I was just applying a different skill (and weapon) to the situation. There were no "level-based" multiplers or divisors applied to hit-chance or damage to bias the outcome in favor of the "higher level" creature/player. Whatever I did or didn't have in hand when I started the fight, that mob would still hit just as hard. The con-color changed because of the amount of damage I could do in return.
In order to relate the use of this terminology to what I have seen in the past, I find it quite acceptable to state that TSW does not have traditional levels or classes in an MMO sense. But to say it is leveless or classless and to utilise that as marketing blurb makes you look closer at the mechanics. If it truly was leveless and classless, in the real sense, you are talking this is a pivotal moment. This isn't the case, this is the same old stuff reworked from a different angle. I did actually think the innovation in TSW was centered around this area, by innovation I mean something we haven't seen before in any form. Which I though was part of the reason it had taken so long to bring this game to market. Ten years to just do the same old stuff with a different setting, big deal.
Eh, they really started to work on TSW after Dreamfall, before that they worked on a game called Cabal taking place in the '20s and heavily inspired by Lovecraft and Indiana Jones, but that got halted for Dreamfall. They took some ideas and world concept from Cabal into TSW, but actual production started in 2006.
As for the rest, I don't see the problem. Most people have a clear grasp that when something is announced as 'no levels, no classes', it refers to the traditional levels and classes as seen in most MMO's. That's the immediate association that emerges for the majority of people: character based levels, and a traditional fixed class system. However, most people'll also grasp, or realise when they give it further thought, that there'll still be some form of progression and roles/jobs, just as seen with other level-less, classless MMO's - because those already exist as most MMO gamers who've been around for some years are aware of.
Anyway, I wish you good luck with your quest for some innovative MMO with stuff that is radically different and has never been seen before in any form. It seems like you're gonna need, because with those criteria I fear you'll have no MMO to play for many years to come
You don't start day one with everything available to you, all skills, all gear and an unlimited amount of currency to spend. If you can progress through a game without a single change to the character then the game might be leveless. I say might because the story/game itself may be split into levels. Some games can be hacked to make them leveless. The use of trainers/cheats and mods to config files may open otherwise locked requirements. But generally most games involve some sort of player progression and in order for the player to progress they have to raise their 'level' of something.
In order to relate the use of this terminology to what I have seen in the past, I find it quite acceptable to state that TSW does not have traditional levels or classes in an MMO sense. But to say it is leveless or classless and to utilise that as marketing blurb makes you look closer at the mechanics. If it truly was leveless and classless, in the real sense, you are talking this is a pivotal moment. This isn't the case, this is the same old stuff reworked from a different angle. I did actually think the innovation in TSW was centered around this area, by innovation I mean something we haven't seen before in any form. Which I though was part of the reason it had taken so long to bring this game to market. Ten years to just do the same old stuff with a different setting, big deal.
Lets make is simple for you. TSW has a class, A class, thats it. EVERYONE is that class. At the end of the day, EVERYONE will be everything that everyone else will be in that single class. In order for there to be a Class system in a game, there has to be MORE than a single class. TO be one and only one makes it a classless system.
As for the Levels it is the same thing, there is but a single level in this game for character leveling. One, and only one. You can't have a leveling system if there is only ONE which everyone starts and ends in. This makes it a leveless game.
It does however have progression, character progression in skills. You do progess in skill level. So this is a skill based game.
Unless I am mistaken, that is exactly what they have advertised this game as. A Classless, Leveless, Skill based MMO.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
Eh, they really started to work on TSW after Dreamfall, before that they worked on a game called Cabal taking place in the '20s and heavily inspired by Lovecraft and Indiana Jones, but that got halted for Dreamfall. They took some ideas and world concept from Cabal into TSW, but actual production started in 2006.
As for the rest, I don't see the problem. Most people have a clear grasp that when something is announced as 'no levels, no classes', it refers to the traditional levels and classes as seen in most MMO's. That's the immediate association that emerges for the majority of people: character based levels, and a traditional fixed class system. However, most people'll also grasp, or realise when they give it further thought, that there'll still be some form of progression and roles/jobs, just as seen with other level-less, classless MMO's - because those already exist as most MMO gamers who've been around for some years are aware of.
Anyway, I wish you good luck with your quest for some innovative MMO with stuff that is radically different and has never been seen before in any form. It seems like you're gonna need, because with those criteria I fear you'll have no MMO to play for many years to come
Concept work started in 2002 under the name of Cabal. Fair enough TSW didn't start development proper until 2006. But they have been knocking ideas/concepts around since 2002. People were working on Cabal at the time of Dreamfall. Heavily Lovecraft themed game set in the 20's doesn't sound far removed from TSW, they have just changed the setting for commercial reason.
I have a grasp of the meaning of leveless and classless. But I was initially in my AOC days, being sold on TSW as some genre breaking game. This game was going to be totally different, part of the reason it had taken so long to come from concept to development. There isn't anything amazing in TSW that rocks the genre. Fundamentally there is very little to get excited about as far as the fundamental mechanics go - nor in the gameplay from what I have seen.
I doubt they'll care if you call it levels, skill levels or a quantized power approximation, there's an undeniable progression that gates content that's not as far removed from level based games as some of you would have them believe. In practice it might as well have been traditional levels as the functionality in game was very similar.
I can't walk in to higher level areas in my first 10 minutes in game and expect to be useful or have an enjoyable experience until I level up my skills. I can't equip certain gear, as it's also level restricted, until I've leveled up skills. Paint it in a pretty light as much as you like, but the second anyone comes in contact with the actual mechanics of the game, your very misleading version of it dissipates.
This has been stated multiple times in this thread, by myself and others.
You can say it has no levels but gear progression functions as levels.
Why is it so important to pretend something about this game that is functionally not true?
It has many positive attributes, but anyone who plays this game for more than 4-5 hours will realize that you need to level gear talents in order to equip the items which enable you to do the harder content as you progress through the game.
so what level are you when, and while progressing? I'll be waiting for your answer.
Progession is not levels. Circle, square, and triangle are all shapes. One is not the other though. Stop trying to put square pegs in triangle holes....
I think we all understand what he means. There are no numeric levles, still players are at different progression states (if you want to call it that). And actually it was a bit annoying telling wether or not I should party up with certain folks since I had no clue if they were higher or lower "level". I assume Funcom has a solution for that though.
Lets make is simple for you. TSW has a class, A class, thats it. EVERYONE is that class. At the end of the day, EVERYONE will be everything that everyone else will be in that single class. In order for there to be a Class system in a game, there has to be MORE than a single class. TO be one and only one makes it a classless system.
As for the Levels it is the same thing, there is but a single level in this game for character leveling. One, and only one. You can't have a leveling system if there is only ONE which everyone starts and ends in. This makes it a leveless game.
It does however have progression, character progression in skills. You do progess in skill level. So this is a skill based game.
Unless I am mistaken, that is exactly what they have advertised this game as. A Classless, Leveless, Skill based MMO.
Everybody isn't the same class. Class refers to the job or profession of a character. The role of a class is normally defined. Here what people can define what sort of profession they want to fit into whatever role they want to play. But there is nothing to stop two people having the same class in TSW. They just have to follow the same build.
Skill based progression, is a form of level based progression just utilising skills. You don't start with every skill available.
So overall this game isn't classless and isn't leveless. It's offers no innovation just the same old crap done a different way.
Concept work started in 2002 under the name of Cabal. Fair enough TSW didn't start development proper until 2006. But they have been knocking ideas/concepts around since 2002. People were working on Cabal at the time of Dreamfall. Heavily Lovecraft themed game set in the 20's doesn't sound far removed from TSW, they have just changed the setting for commercial reason.
I have a grasp of the meaning of leveless and classless. But I was initially in my AOC days, being sold on TSW as some genre breaking game. This game was going to be totally different, part of the reason it had taken so long to come from concept to development. There isn't anything amazing in TSW that rocks the genre. Fundamentally there is very little to get excited about as far as the fundamental mechanics go - nor in the gameplay from what I have seen.
Tolkien started knocking ideas for his epic saga and world of Middle Earth when he was in his college years, that doesn't mean that he did 30 years about writing his Lord of the Rings trilogy
As for the rest, seems you let your expectations and wishful dreaming get the better of you, I keep saying to MMO gamers that they should be more down-to-earth and manage their expectations better. If you can't get excited about TSW, well, sucks for you, mate. I guess you'll just have to wait till your radically revolutionary MMO appears with never-before-seen-or-done innovations, it'll probably be a few years or more before such a one arrives that'll suit your specific wishlist, but I wish you luck and patience, I think you'll need it
Originally posted by fallenlords
So overall this game isn't classless and isn't leveless. It's offers no innovation just the same old crap done a different way.
True. Classless and level-less MMO's in the style of TSW have been done before, although they're few.
That still doesn't negate the fact that they don't have the fixed, rigid class systems or (character based) level systems as seen in most MMO's.
Seems like TSW isn't the MMO you're looking for. Time to move on, maybe? Maybe even out of the MMO genre, since all MMO's use some form of progression and roles which you're not looking for apparently?
But cooper, your wrong TSW really has levels but there hidden.
heh.. you plan on doing a TSW video iamflymolo?
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Originally posted by Aerowyn the whole point is the game's zone progression is set up the same as most other MMOs. The way the game was designed was for you to follow the story from zone a to zone b to zone c. Progression in the game was designed around this and that's the point. Everything else though is just arguing for the sake of arguing I suppose
I think you are partially correct, but not quite.
In for instance AoC, two characters working together couldn't take on mobs 8 levels higher. It just didn't work due to an inherit system that made you do less damage and take more damage in return if the level disparity was too large. It's a classic level based design. I think I once managed to kite a mob that was 7 levels higher than me, but it was a special type with really slow, hard attacks, with low max dps and I was playing a healer.
In TSW the scaling of the mobs is a lot less steep. Just look at the first area, its scaled for single characters with QL 1-3 equipment. Two or three characters grouping together, just putting points into weapon skills can quickly progress through basically all the open world content.
On the other hand, if you have worked your way through most of Savage Cost and go back to Kingsmouth, thinking you can own everything there, you wade into the mobs at the beach - you will discover that although you hit harder and can endure more, you will get killed preeeeety quickly if you take on more than one or two.
So, sure TSW has vertical progression, but it's not a typical MMO progression like what you see in games like AoC.
Tolkien started knocking ideas for his epic saga and world of Middle Earth when he was in his college years, that doesn't mean that he did 30 years about writing his Lord of the Rings trilogy
Well to my mind actually it does, if he had ideas of Middle Earth in college then that is when it started. The idea is the start of the journey, not when you actually put pen to paper and write. The writing part is the 'craft', it's transferring the idea in a way that can be understood by your intended audience.
You know that takes about 600 hours of good game play? There is now way in the world would I try to gain all the abilities, nor would I ever have a reason to. That's just silly. In that scenario you speak of the person with all of everything will hit no harder than a guy with a few weapons partially completed.
Well.. they claim it does. How much actual time it will take will be another thing. It IS however the primary progression of the game; you will not reach your characters full potential until you lock all abilities.
Most people who play the game will either play until the content is exhausted, or until they reach that phase. It's like saying that people won't hit max level in Tera, GW2, WoW etc.. it's kind of ridiculous, unless you assume that people will be so horribly bored of the game that they will stop playing it before "600" hours.
The wheel is the end-game content, if the in-game content is exhausted before you unlock it all, which makes senes entirely since most content is repeatable.
For a subscription-based game, 600 hours isn't even all that much. People can hit upwards of 200 in a single month, so .. saying this game has less than 3 months of playing time isn't very encouraging.
Btw, Funcom never said they had 600 hours of quest content. They have said something along the lines of 200 hours, or 100 hours if you skip* a lot of content (a lot is optional). At the same time there is lots of content that isn't story based:
9 dungeons with 3 difficulties
9 (?) Lairs with summonable Lair bosses (3+1?)
Region bosses (9+?)
Minigames
Persistant PvP
You also have elements that keeps the game interesting like the horizontal progression through abilities and the gear customization for the builds you create. The assorted builds you can create with this is useful for nightmare-mode dungeons and for PvP.
So, if you want to try out all the content in the game you are looking at a lot more than 200 hours, all depending on what type of player you are. It's not like in SWTOR where it really seemed the endgame was something they tacked on at the end of the story content.
*People who rush and skip content to finish the main story as fast as possible and then complain about lack of content are pretty lame in my eyes. Some might do this because they are in the game for the PvP or dungeons though.
Correction, you are dead wrong. Funcom has been working on this project since 2002, it's former name was the entire world online then Cabal to TSW as we know it. Funny because in the gazet in montreal ( News Paper ) the press spoke with Funcom at their studios and claimed that the game had well over 600 hrs of quests, even boasting that TSW has more quests then WoW, and for some reason yeah I believe them because I play the beta of the game and I was in game for 50-60 hours in the Kingsmouth area and I did'nt finish every single quests, and how can you say that a number of 100-200 hours of questing when you have puzzles to solve and cluse to dig up that are literaly in several books including the bible, heck one quest took me like 2 hours to figure out LOL. I will comment on one more thing, you mention end game, funny I find the " End game " Better then WoW so seems like your just talking crap, my suggestion to you, play the game, and for the rest of you guys that are on the fence, don't listen to people like this felllow here , or even myself, try it and enjoy it or hate it whatever, but my advice does carry some weight, take it or leave it, but when I play this game is FAR from being a item grind ( Oh boy ) how many times have we heard this? Shit even in the Phantasy star series that dates back to 1989-1998 even had some sort of grind, this is'nt a korean grindfest nor is it like the grind of the good old days of Everquest, it's fun challenging and can be a complete blast for people who enjoy history, horror, drama and the supernatural, but if you are easy frustrated by puzzles and that sort of thing I would either stay clear of it or ask for help.
My two cents
It sounds like you think I dislike the game and dislike the (end)game... I actually got the lifetime subscription.
Comments
Because people say 'levels' but at the same time mean different things.
Why is that so hard to understand?
It should be obvious by now to anyone using half his/her brains that when some people say 'levels', they refer to the character level system as seen in most MMO's as well as many RPG's, where your character gains levels and stats and other stuff rise accordingly, while other people say levels and refer to any mechanical progression based system used in MMO's and other games.
The 1st group use the term 'levels' and can make a distinction between the MMO's that use character levels like WoW, EQ, DAoC, LotrO etc and the MMO's that don't use character levels but other means of progression, like EVE, TSW etc.
The 2nd group uses the term 'levels' for any kind of progression mechanic that doesn't open up all content and options right from the start, and to them all MMO's have 'levels', one way or the other.
That 2nd interpretation imo makes the whole point moot of clarifying the differences between 1 progression system and another, but ok, to each their own.
The rest is just semantics, or people purposely trying to not understand other people for whatever reason
so what level are you when, and while progressing? I'll be waiting for your answer.
Progession is not levels. Circle, square, and triangle are all shapes. One is not the other though. Stop trying to put square pegs in triangle holes....
Sigh, guess i'll take another crack at it.
1. True level-less = No blockers at all. Everyoneis 100% equal right from the start.
2. Progression = Level "style". You have blockers that keep you out of content, weapons, etc. Almost all mmorpg are here.
3. Level based mmo = There's progression (2). Also, your character has a number that details is power and that point of content. That's a level.
4. Level-less = There's progression (2). Your character does not have a pure defining number, but there's other mechanics that detail that required progression, since it is required.
TSW = 4. Character doesn't have stats, but ranks and gear are the method of calculating progression. It's not has linear and strict has a normal level, but stil behaves like one since it's not true level-less.
Also
Levels = "you are that level!" there are systems in alot of MMORPGs that let you level down to play with a new starting friend, but you are still a power house compaired to your friend and the level and in most cases you cannot redo the quest you have done, so you friend is still questing alone, with just a guard.
TSW = you can change gear and spect and now you are = to your friend and building a new spect, and can redo the quest with them as well.
booyah!
That's true Arkain. I haven't checked out enough info on crafting and material etc.
But, the idea is that you can craft anything has long has you have the tool kits and quantity of raw materials. So, if i have a QL10 (not competly sure about the QL levels) Desert Eagle made for critic damage, i can just craft a pair of QL1 or QL5 pistols with the same stat distribution. Also, there's suppose to be a way to change weapon apperance too.
Therefore, if this is completly possible, if rank and QL are the version of levels in TSW, we can controll our own levels has we desire. ALOT of grinding for this, i'm sure
It sounds like you think I dislike the game and dislike the (end)game... I actually got the lifetime subscription.
To answer the OP's question directly.
FAR , far more people than will want to pay monthly to play TSW.
I'd tlike to note this thread to go back and look in a year just how successful this "leveless" game is.
Bet's anyone ?
exactly the point I'm trying to argue not sure why people find this such a hard concept.
Because people say 'levels' but at the same time mean different things.
Why is that so hard to understand?
It should be obvious by now to anyone using half his/her brains that when some people say 'levels', they refer to the character level system as seen in most MMO's as well as many RPG's, where your character gains levels and stats and other stuff rise accordingly, while other people say levels and refer to any mechanical progression based system used in MMO's and other games.
The 1st group use the term 'levels' and can make a distinction between the MMO's that use character levels like WoW, EQ, DAoC, LotrO etc and the MMO's that don't use character levels but other means of progression, like EVE, TSW etc.
The 2nd group uses the term 'levels' for any kind of progression mechanic that doesn't open up all content and options right from the start, and to them all MMO's have 'levels', one way or the other.
That 2nd interpretation imo makes the whole point moot of clarifying the differences between 1 progression system and another, but ok, to each their own.
The rest is just semantics, or people purposely trying to not understand other people for whatever reason
the whole point is the game's zone progression is set up the same as most other MMOs. The way the game was designed was for you to follow the story from zone a to zone b to zone c. Progression in the game was designed around this and that's the point. Everything else though is just arguing for the sake of arguing I supposeI angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Thanks, but obviously I understand it enough to justify my claims and to clearly see we were essentially taking part in a 'levelling' experience, as you haven't disputed a single assertion I made - only implied I didn't understand it.
Which is a bit of a stretch - trying to convince someone they were restricted to certain content because they didn't understand the skill system rather than because the game is based around the fact that higher skill level allows you to take on higher skill level areas and use higher skill level gear ( I mean, come on, the requirements are right ON the gear, why deny they have a clear progression system laid out?).
When my skills were a higher level I was able to take on tougher content, true? This leads to an experience that's incredibly similar to a traditional level based game, explain how that's not the case while sticking to facts.
The fact that there are lower level areas and higher level areas should be a clear indication to anyone with their eyes open that areas are segregated by mob level, and arranged based around a linear character progression. Or do you dispute that? We were certainly moved into tougher areas as we levelled up our skills, did you go to the tougher areas right away, or did you have to raise your skills first?
Why people are straining so hard to disguise this is beyond me - the game is what it is, like it for what it is or don't, labelling it shouldn't be so important. The overall experience is very similar to a linear level based progression system, with content that is gated by how much time you've spent levelling skills.
EvEs skill system isn't a hard concept to grasp (there are also ton of great guides available for newer players), it may take new players more time to adjust to EvE than it would for them to adjust to TSW, for example, as it's a fairly different experience, but neither system is really, as you apparently found it, 'hard to grasp'.
Re-read my post, I never once said I gained levels, I said it's a skill based system that plays an awful lot like a traditional level based system.
Don't put words in peoples mouths for the sake of setting up a strawman argument, it's weak.
I also pointed out it doesn't matter what you call it - over all you earn exp to spend points that allows you to take on tougher areas that you wouldn't be able to without having earned exp to raise your characters effectiveness.
You don't start day one with everything available to you, all skills, all gear and an unlimited amount of currency to spend. If you can progress through a game without a single change to the character then the game might be leveless. I say might because the story/game itself may be split into levels. Some games can be hacked to make them leveless. The use of trainers/cheats and mods to config files may open otherwise locked requirements. But generally most games involve some sort of player progression and in order for the player to progress they have to raise their 'level' of something.
In order to relate the use of this terminology to what I have seen in the past, I find it quite acceptable to state that TSW does not have traditional levels or classes in an MMO sense. But to say it is leveless or classless and to utilise that as marketing blurb makes you look closer at the mechanics. If it truly was leveless and classless, in the real sense, you are talking this is a pivotal moment. This isn't the case, this is the same old stuff reworked from a different angle. I did actually think the innovation in TSW was centered around this area, by innovation I mean something we haven't seen before in any form. Which I though was part of the reason it had taken so long to bring this game to market. Ten years to just do the same old stuff with a different setting, big deal.
i see you are again at redefining words.
Good luck!
When I was playing Star Wars Galaxies in 2004 (Pre-CU), there were simple, easy answers to such questions. If I equipped a sword (with no Brawler skills), a mob conned red to me. So I put away the blade and equipped a laser rifle instead; since I had skills with Marksmanship in general, and Rifles in particular, that same mob now conned blue. Neither the mob nor I had changed, I was just applying a different skill (and weapon) to the situation. There were no "level-based" multiplers or divisors applied to hit-chance or damage to bias the outcome in favor of the "higher level" creature/player. Whatever I did or didn't have in hand when I started the fight, that mob would still hit just as hard. The con-color changed because of the amount of damage I could do in return.
Eh, they really started to work on TSW after Dreamfall, before that they worked on a game called Cabal taking place in the '20s and heavily inspired by Lovecraft and Indiana Jones, but that got halted for Dreamfall. They took some ideas and world concept from Cabal into TSW, but actual production started in 2006.
As for the rest, I don't see the problem. Most people have a clear grasp that when something is announced as 'no levels, no classes', it refers to the traditional levels and classes as seen in most MMO's. That's the immediate association that emerges for the majority of people: character based levels, and a traditional fixed class system. However, most people'll also grasp, or realise when they give it further thought, that there'll still be some form of progression and roles/jobs, just as seen with other level-less, classless MMO's - because those already exist as most MMO gamers who've been around for some years are aware of.
Anyway, I wish you good luck with your quest for some innovative MMO with stuff that is radically different and has never been seen before in any form. It seems like you're gonna need, because with those criteria I fear you'll have no MMO to play for many years to come
Lets make is simple for you. TSW has a class, A class, thats it. EVERYONE is that class. At the end of the day, EVERYONE will be everything that everyone else will be in that single class. In order for there to be a Class system in a game, there has to be MORE than a single class. TO be one and only one makes it a classless system.
As for the Levels it is the same thing, there is but a single level in this game for character leveling. One, and only one. You can't have a leveling system if there is only ONE which everyone starts and ends in. This makes it a leveless game.
It does however have progression, character progression in skills. You do progess in skill level. So this is a skill based game.
Unless I am mistaken, that is exactly what they have advertised this game as. A Classless, Leveless, Skill based MMO.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
Concept work started in 2002 under the name of Cabal. Fair enough TSW didn't start development proper until 2006. But they have been knocking ideas/concepts around since 2002. People were working on Cabal at the time of Dreamfall. Heavily Lovecraft themed game set in the 20's doesn't sound far removed from TSW, they have just changed the setting for commercial reason.
I have a grasp of the meaning of leveless and classless. But I was initially in my AOC days, being sold on TSW as some genre breaking game. This game was going to be totally different, part of the reason it had taken so long to come from concept to development. There isn't anything amazing in TSW that rocks the genre. Fundamentally there is very little to get excited about as far as the fundamental mechanics go - nor in the gameplay from what I have seen.
I think we all understand what he means. There are no numeric levles, still players are at different progression states (if you want to call it that). And actually it was a bit annoying telling wether or not I should party up with certain folks since I had no clue if they were higher or lower "level". I assume Funcom has a solution for that though.
Everybody isn't the same class. Class refers to the job or profession of a character. The role of a class is normally defined. Here what people can define what sort of profession they want to fit into whatever role they want to play. But there is nothing to stop two people having the same class in TSW. They just have to follow the same build.
Skill based progression, is a form of level based progression just utilising skills. You don't start with every skill available.
So overall this game isn't classless and isn't leveless. It's offers no innovation just the same old crap done a different way.
But cooper, your wrong TSW really has levels but there hidden.
http://www.youtube.com/flymolo
Tolkien started knocking ideas for his epic saga and world of Middle Earth when he was in his college years, that doesn't mean that he did 30 years about writing his Lord of the Rings trilogy
As for the rest, seems you let your expectations and wishful dreaming get the better of you, I keep saying to MMO gamers that they should be more down-to-earth and manage their expectations better. If you can't get excited about TSW, well, sucks for you, mate. I guess you'll just have to wait till your radically revolutionary MMO appears with never-before-seen-or-done innovations, it'll probably be a few years or more before such a one arrives that'll suit your specific wishlist, but I wish you luck and patience, I think you'll need it
True. Classless and level-less MMO's in the style of TSW have been done before, although they're few.
That still doesn't negate the fact that they don't have the fixed, rigid class systems or (character based) level systems as seen in most MMO's.
Seems like TSW isn't the MMO you're looking for. Time to move on, maybe? Maybe even out of the MMO genre, since all MMO's use some form of progression and roles which you're not looking for apparently?
heh.. you plan on doing a TSW video iamflymolo?
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
I think you are partially correct, but not quite.
In for instance AoC, two characters working together couldn't take on mobs 8 levels higher. It just didn't work due to an inherit system that made you do less damage and take more damage in return if the level disparity was too large. It's a classic level based design. I think I once managed to kite a mob that was 7 levels higher than me, but it was a special type with really slow, hard attacks, with low max dps and I was playing a healer.
In TSW the scaling of the mobs is a lot less steep. Just look at the first area, its scaled for single characters with QL 1-3 equipment. Two or three characters grouping together, just putting points into weapon skills can quickly progress through basically all the open world content.
On the other hand, if you have worked your way through most of Savage Cost and go back to Kingsmouth, thinking you can own everything there, you wade into the mobs at the beach - you will discover that although you hit harder and can endure more, you will get killed preeeeety quickly if you take on more than one or two.
So, sure TSW has vertical progression, but it's not a typical MMO progression like what you see in games like AoC.
Well to my mind actually it does, if he had ideas of Middle Earth in college then that is when it started. The idea is the start of the journey, not when you actually put pen to paper and write. The writing part is the 'craft', it's transferring the idea in a way that can be understood by your intended audience.
Lucky sob! :P How much was it Black?