There are still people who sadly thing that being "social" in a MMORPG means grouping up together to bash mobs. 17 years after UO's release, some still didn't get it...
What YOU don't get is that if that is what players like to do, who are YOU to say otherwise?
No everyone likes the kind of socialization you talk about. What if I LIKE to bash some mobs with friends and random strangers? I certainly am not shy to vote with my wallet.
There is NOTHING to get. Entertainment is entertainment. We play what we like and how we like it. Assuming anything else is just delusional.
There are still people who sadly thing that being "social" in a MMORPG means grouping up together to bash mobs. 17 years after UO's release, some still didn't get it...
That's very true, however, the less social ones are still solo'ers. I don't consider raids, open world mob invasion or pvp to be anymore "group content" than being able to gather material and building a house with other player. In fact, i consider city events, theatre plays, player made event like bands using instruments to be what true social content is in mmorpg.
The irony lies in the fact that most casual solo players SEEM (don't have facts, just using all other themeparks has "proof") to want is to do their quests, dungeons, stories, pvp, carfting all by themsleves. They don't want to participate in minigame activities with others, watch a play put on by rp'ers, nothing.
You're completly right about that being social in mmos is not being forced to group to do a quest, but, unless it involves object reaching, reward giving, combat oriented elements, it's not content to do. It's most solo'ers who believe that bashing mobs is group, social content, so your point goes nowhere.
As I said earlier, some of the best MMORPG communities I've had the honor to be part of were UO and AC1, and both games don't have forced grouping. Two games where the solo play style was 100% supported, yet which has way better communities that today's theme parks.
What makes people antisocial is the "end game loot grind" oriented model. Even among raiders, the supposed "social" people, it's all about who is going to get that next piece of loot, greed is king. I know about it, I did some more or less hardcore raiding notably in WoW.
So on topic, pretending that forcing people to group to bash mobs makes better communities, and gathers more sociable players, is nonsense.
everytime I make this point, all the pro-forced groupers gladly ignore this.
Yup, AC1 and UO you were able to solo as much as you want...yet groups happened all the time
MMOs are not for solo players, the same people that probably try and play PnP games solo. Not designed for it for a reason.
No matter what anyone says I don't give a shit if somone who likes to solo is forced to group in a MMO, 99% of the content should be grouping. It shouldn't be like it is now where 99% is soloable and you can level faster solo than in a group. If you want to solo play a single player game and don't give me that crap about online socialization because if you want to solo you sure don't want to socialize in the first place.
And i don't give a shit what you think how much of the content should be grouping. I *like* choices and will vote with my wallet. We will see who has more "votes" and which direction devs are going to go.
I just like playing through content solo, rather than group, now of course if its a boss then you have to but i really do not like the group dynamic. SWTOR kind of turned me on to small grouping with social points and cut scenes to make it more interesting, but games like DDO where you almost have to group a large part of the content can be a pain if you dont get the right group-people running off on their own, going to fast or slow or have an attitude- No thanks I would rather go solo
MMOs are not for solo players, the same people that probably try and play PnP games solo. Not designed for it for a reason.
No matter what anyone says I don't give a shit if somone who likes to solo is forced to group in a MMO, 99% of the content should be grouping. It shouldn't be like it is now where 99% is soloable and you can level faster solo than in a group. If you want to solo play a single player game and don't give me that crap about online socialization because if you want to solo you sure don't want to socialize in the first place.
And i don't give a shit what you think how much of the content should be grouping. I *like* choices and will vote with my wallet. We will see who has more "votes" and which direction devs are going to go.
There are still people who sadly thing that being "social" in a MMORPG means grouping up together to bash mobs. 17 years after UO's release, some still didn't get it...
What YOU don't get is that if that is what players like to do, who are YOU to say otherwise?
No everyone likes the kind of socialization you talk about. What if I LIKE to bash some mobs with friends and random strangers? I certainly am not shy to vote with my wallet.
There is NOTHING to get. Entertainment is entertainment. We play what we like and how we like it. Assuming anything else is just delusional.
You obviously completely misunderstood what I was saying. Granted, I mispelled "think", but otherwise, it's pretty clear... I don't deny the right to be able to group up with friends to bash mobs, but it's definitely NOT the only way to socialize in a MMORPG, and not the best either.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
When I play MMORPG's i tend to play solo a lot. However, the problem with games designing content for solo players is that they seem to think solo players are incompetent gamers. "Solo Content" always seems to be super easy and if you group then all challenge is gone. Personally I think almost all the currently released MMORPG's are pretty much crap (there are a few exceptions). There is zero challenge and it always seems to be about putting the time in. SWTOR was the worst in this department. The thing that I absolutely hated about SWTOR, and the reason I quit playing after a couple of days, was the self resurrection system. It was the ultimate in EZmode. I think trying to be a solo player in a group based mmorpg, may be a challenge worthy of attempting. As of now, solo content in MMORPG's are just kill 10 rats while clicking a bunch of buttons without any real chance of dying. I do think the level scaling in GW2 is a huge improvement in the challenge department for solo content so that does create some hope.
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now! I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
MMOs are not for solo players, the same people that probably try and play PnP games solo. Not designed for it for a reason.
No matter what anyone says I don't give a shit if somone who likes to solo is forced to group in a MMO, 99% of the content should be grouping. It shouldn't be like it is now where 99% is soloable and you can level faster solo than in a group. If you want to solo play a single player game and don't give me that crap about online socialization because if you want to solo you sure don't want to socialize in the first place.
And i don't give a shit what you think how much of the content should be grouping. I *like* choices and will vote with my wallet. We will see who has more "votes" and which direction devs are going to go.
I don't mind soloing in MMOs, I even like to solo sometimes. The problem I have is when soloing is by far the quickest way to progress, it becomes detrimental to grouping in a couple of ways.
First, I can never find a group leveling up because people rather just solo.
Second is if the end game is a group/raid, even group pvp based oriented, many people don't know how to play with each other because they never learned while they leveled up.
Even that aside, I can put up with it if I really enjoy the game, but the thing that really gets me is when the pure solo player expects to get the same items, rewards as a person who dedicates a lot of time, grouped with a bunch of people to take down really strong monsters for incredible items. That annoys me. I have no idea why someone expects to be able to solo and get the same item as what takes 40+ people working together to obtain.
Soloing in MMO's is fine. I just hate when people think every single bit of content in the games should be soloable.
I prefer when games scale content to the size of party. Base rewards on how many are participating, and the degree of difficulty.
I dont perfer that model. What I perfer is what Fallen Earth TRIED to do which is:
you have various dungeons. some are group dependent some are not. In the same amount of time (including group prep time) a solo player could get the same XP progress as a group player but they would simply be playing in different mini zones.
Also, I think the skill differences between players should work together to make grouping more possible. it encourages coporation more.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I love'd to solo content when it was done like ffxi. If you solo'd it ment you were good and was a major bragging point. Soloing sky gods as rdm/nin or soloing next to merit parties as drg/blu. Solo play should be in mmo because it ads a lot to the challenge of content. Although imo ffxi was the only game that did it right where boss mobs weren't just immune to everything and you had to spam a heal macro on a tank to win. You could do stuff with 3-4 people that would normally take 18+ like jorgumand.
This is exactly the issue, and I'd argue that 80% might actually be a little too low and that the real number would be around 95%, simply because I can count group-oriented MMORPG on my hands.
I don't mind solo players, but an MMORPG's focus should not be on those solo players...because it's an MMORPG. His whole article is plastered with "If-s" and "Maybe-s". If you want to socialize you can, but there's no need to. If you want to group you can, but there's no need to. It's ridiculous, and definitively hasn't changed my mind that if players want to play everything solo, than they should go play Single Player RPGs. However the industry currently catters to those people, as oppose to the old industry of 10 years ago. An MMORPG should be primarily group-oriented but still give the possibility of soloing to some extent (because it's true that we don't have the best schedule in the world for gaming) and not the opposite around, in other words solo-oriented with the possibility of grouping.
The problem is simple...
If you center your game on grouping, with occasional solo content, you will force people to group to progress. And players don't like to be forced into things, specially when it doesn't fit their schedule to play the game. Nothing is worse than having to sit 30 minutes in a LFG channel before being able to continue to progress your character viably.
But if your game has soloing as a viable alternative to progress from noob to max, but also with group content, everybody can chose whatever playstyle they prefer, and even those who prefer grouping can still do the solo stuff while waiting for their group to form up.
It's easy to understand which version give the most freedom to the player, and why most developers use that model.
Another negative consequence of forced grouping I've noticed is that it breeds elitism. If people are forced to group to reach some essential goals for their character progression, they will start lack tolerance towards the "lesser" players and avoid/discriminate them, when they don't also insult them of course... we've seen that in EQ, in DAoC's leveling, in WoW's end game of course, and even in games like LOTRO which also have raid centric end games. Some of the best MMORPG communities I've been part of were in games where grouping was totally optional (UO and AC1 for instance), because people were doing the group content for fun, and therefore had a way more relaxed approach to it. As a side note, that's one of the reasons why I'm looking forward to GW2.
If the game's focus was solo play (as is for most MMOs nowadays), then the players will grow used to solo'ing and continue to expect the content to be solo-able from Lv.1 to max. This is exactly why you see all the time content being nerfed (and even classes, because it's a lot easier to nerf a class than to use teamwork to defeat a better player right?). It's absolutely ridiculous, and it is exactly what breeds "elitism", it's not grouping.
In MMORPGs that focuses on solo and individual success, elitism is rampant. If you group in those MMOs with other players, you will be ridiculed for not choosing the "best build" and be left out, because you would be holding said "group" back (in Raids or PvP Arena for example). And if you're not doing your "job" right, you will be trash talked for being horrible and then left out. Why? Because Solo MMORPGs have turned other players into tools to further your character's advancement. They are nothing more than that, temporary tools you have to deal with to reach max level. Relationship with these players are irrelevant as they will be forgotten immediatly or left out as soon as the raid or PvP match is over, and even more so if they didn't pick the idea build or class that will allow you to maximize your character advancement. That is elitism.
(Forced) Grouping requires that players know how to socialize and show a certain amount of maturity, and bad players will be cut out of your groups. Why? Because these groups become long-term groups and friends, and will rely on each others to fulfill various tasks and create a fun environment/mood. If a player's bad behavior is ruining the fun for others, he will be cut out. The joy of grouping isn't to continuously kill monsters for long period of times, but also act as a social activity where players will develop bonds that will last even beyond the game. That is not elitism.
To me, being a "solo'er" has nothing to do with doing group content. Look at hardcore raiders. Many of them (not all of course) dedicate themselves to a full group oriented activity, but they don't care for the team. They care about winning and getting the loot and reward for themselves. Ninjas are complete proof of this.
Allow me to use a comparsion:
- While doing Rifts an Dynamic Events, which obviously group oriented, most people don't talk or even try to socialize. Nobody says hello, thank you, goodbey. Very little difference between humans and npc's.
- Now imagine this solo quest where you have to kill 5 rats ( :P ). 2 players have to do this one, but they need the rats to respawn so both can complete it. So, the 2 players decide go together and have conversation while waiting for the rats to respawn and both turn it in together. See, while the content is solo based, the 2 players actually socialized and grouped up.
Now, i know this is very, very rare, but it's just an example to show that soloing can be far more than what we think. This to me is the problem, the lack of "get to know each other" in mmo's. I understand many want their space, which i too myself desire, but when that personal space is on all the time, there's no room for community building. This to me is true soloing and why i hate it.
How can this be improved? No clear answer, but many things contribute to this.
To me, being a "solo'er" has nothing to do with doing group content. Look at hardcore raiders. Many of them (not all of course) dedicate themselves to a full group oriented activity, but they don't care for the team. They care about winning and getting the loot and reward for themselves. Ninjas are complete proof of this.
Allow me to use a comparsion:
- While doing Rifts an Dynamic Events, which obviously group oriented, most people don't talk or even try to socialize. Nobody says hello, thank you, goodbey. Very little difference between humans and npc's.
- Now imagine this solo quest where you have to kill 5 rats ( :P ). 2 players have to do this one, but they need the rats to respawn so both can complete it. So, the 2 players decide go together and have conversation while waiting for the rats to respawn and both turn it in together. See, while the content is solo based, the 2 players actually socialized and grouped up.
Now, i know this is very, very rare, but it's just an example to show that soloing can be far more than what we think. This to me is the problem, the lack of "get to know each other" in mmo's. I understand many want their space, which i too myself desire, but when that personal space is on all the time, there's no room for community building. This to me is true soloing and why i hate it.
How can this be improved? No clear answer, but many things contribute to this.
The reason why no one talks is because they are all solo players. I will ride up and join the zerg for the buffs and heals. Couldn't care less about who is providing it. Its a tool to stay alive and farm faster. They could all be npcs for all I care.
A game with both solo content and group content gives players the choice. People can either solo or group.
A game with forced group content gives no choice. It's either group or quit.
And the alteration about soloing breeding elitism is utterly ridiculous and makes no sense at all.
Next time you try to look smart with post alterations, try to at least understand what you are modifying before, it will avoid unneeded embarasment.
True, but the real problemas I see it is that players used to get rewarded for working together, now you level up faster solo and since it is so fast you don't need the slightly better gear groupers get.
MMOs should have solocontent, no worries but they must also reward people for working together and helping eachother out. Playing in a group doing hard dungeons needs once again to be faster than farming soloquests. Preferably a few times faster.
A game should not force you to group but it should encourage you to do it, MMOs are after all about social aspects and choices.
There are still people who sadly thing that being "social" in a MMORPG means grouping up together to bash mobs. 17 years after UO's release, some still didn't get it...
That's very true, however, the less social ones are still solo'ers. I don't consider raids, open world mob invasion or pvp to be anymore "group content" than being able to gather material and building a house with other player. In fact, i consider city events, theatre plays, player made event like bands using instruments to be what true social content is in mmorpg.
The irony lies in the fact that most casual solo players SEEM (don't have facts, just using all other themeparks has "proof") to want is to do their quests, dungeons, stories, pvp, carfting all by themsleves. They don't want to participate in minigame activities with others, watch a play put on by rp'ers, nothing.
You're completly right about that being social in mmos is not being forced to group to do a quest, but, unless it involves object reaching, reward giving, combat oriented elements, it's not content to do. It's most solo'ers who believe that bashing mobs is group, social content, so your point goes nowhere.
As I said earlier, some of the best MMORPG communities I've had the honor to be part of were UO and AC1, and both games don't have forced grouping. Two games where the solo play style was 100% supported, yet which has way better communities that today's theme parks.
What makes people antisocial is the "end game loot grind" oriented model. Even among raiders, the supposed "social" people, it's all about who is going to get that next piece of loot, greed is king. I know about it, I did some more or less hardcore raiding notably in WoW.
So on topic, pretending that forcing people to group to bash mobs makes better communities, and gathers more sociable players, is nonsense.
Sorry bud, but it has been proven time and time again, look at all the latest MMOs.
You make it sound so shallow, there are many ways group content can go, not just bashing some mob. Dungeon runs are just one example. Then there is PvP, sure solo PvP can be fun, but in groups you can do more.
And that is exactly how it should be, a soloer should NEVER have access to group content, and EVERY MMO should have both solo content and group content.
There is nothing forced, your just not going to get everything out of the game, and it makes sense to do it that way.
If the game's focus was solo play (as is for most MMOs nowadays), then the players will grow used to solo'ing and continue to expect the content to be solo-able from Lv.1 to max. This is exactly why you see all the time content being nerfed (and even classes, because it's a lot easier to nerf a class than to use teamwork to defeat a better player right?). It's absolutely ridiculous, and it is exactly what breeds "elitism", it's not grouping.
In MMORPGs that focuses on solo and individual success, elitism is rampamt. If you group in those MMOs with other players, you will be ridiculed for not choosing the "best build" and be left out, because you would be holding said "group" back (in Raids or PvP Arena for example). And if you're not doing your "job" right, you will be trash talked for being horrible and then left out. Why? Because Solo MMORPGs have turned other players into tools to further your character's advancement. They are nothing more than that, temporary tools you have to deal with to reach max level. Relationship with these players are irrelevant as they will be forgotten immediatly or left out as soon as the raid or PvP match is over, and even more so if they didn't pick the idea build or class that will allow you to maximize your character advancement. That is elitism.
(Forced) Grouping requires that players know how to socialize and show a certain amount of maturity, and bad players will be cut out of your groups. Why? Because these groups become long-term groups and friends, and will rely on each others to fulfill various tasks and create a fun environment/mood. If a player's bad behavior is ruining the fun for others, he will be cut out. The joy of grouping isn't to continuously kill monsters for long period of times, but also act as a social activity where players will develop bonds that will last even beyond the game. That is not elitism.
You don't make any sense. How can people minding their own business and doing their stuff without relying on others breed elitism? The elitism starts as soon as one attempts to participate in group activities. Then, if he's not the "perfect player", a specific category of group players will look down on him and discriminate him, without even giving him a chance. Why? Because they don't want to socialize in those loot centric games, they want their reward, and that "not perfect" player is slowing them down. I didn't even say "stop them", I just said "slowing them down".
I've been raiding hardcore, hard modes in Ulduar and then heroic modes afterwards, and I've seen such behaviors. People insulting others because they got loot they wanted, earned it the legit way with their hard earned DKP, yet the other person was for some reason thinking they were "not worthy" compared to them. People getting all mad at someone because he made a mistake during a boss encounter, and treating that person worse that how a animal hater would treat his dog. I've always fought against that, it sometimes even got me in trouble for defending victims of such behaviors.
Forced grouping is nonsense, it breeds elitism, because people are forced to get along with people they don't want to. The gear carrot on a stick is at the cost of enduring that 10 or 25 man raid for 3+ hours. That's crap design, it worked for a while, but we see a trend lately, people are sick of it and don't buy it anymore.
It's not solo content that has turned other players into tools to further your character advancement, you are completely (and obviously) wrong. It's the loot centric forced grouping damned "end game" all MMOs for the last 7 years are focused on at max level. That breeded greed, which breeded elitism, which make people treat others as just tools to get that famous gear to advance their characters.
I've been around for 17+ years if we don't count MUDs. I've seen game without that gear carrot 'group or die' design, and games with it. The best communities have always been in games without it, because people actually grouped for FUN and for the pleasure to be with each other, and not to use others as tools to gain more power or gear.
That's pretty much why I'm looking forward to GW2... they break this model, completely. They make people play together instead of pitting them against each other for a carrot, and "end game"' starts at level 1. It's the first time in a long time I see a developer do this and succeed. The gear carrot end game model can die, I won't cry about it.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
If the game's focus was solo play (as is for most MMOs nowadays), then the players will grow used to solo'ing and continue to expect the content to be solo-able from Lv.1 to max. This is exactly why you see all the time content being nerfed (and even classes, because it's a lot easier to nerf a class than to use teamwork to defeat a better player right?). It's absolutely ridiculous, and it is exactly what breeds "elitism", it's not grouping.
In MMORPGs that focuses on solo and individual success, elitism is rampamt. If you group in those MMOs with other players, you will be ridiculed for not choosing the "best build" and be left out, because you would be holding said "group" back (in Raids or PvP Arena for example). And if you're not doing your "job" right, you will be trash talked for being horrible and then left out. Why? Because Solo MMORPGs have turned other players into tools to further your character's advancement. They are nothing more than that, temporary tools you have to deal with to reach max level. Relationship with these players are irrelevant as they will be forgotten immediatly or left out as soon as the raid or PvP match is over, and even more so if they didn't pick the idea build or class that will allow you to maximize your character advancement. That is elitism.
(Forced) Grouping requires that players know how to socialize and show a certain amount of maturity, and bad players will be cut out of your groups. Why? Because these groups become long-term groups and friends, and will rely on each others to fulfill various tasks and create a fun environment/mood. If a player's bad behavior is ruining the fun for others, he will be cut out. The joy of grouping isn't to continuously kill monsters for long period of times, but also act as a social activity where players will develop bonds that will last even beyond the game. That is not elitism.
You don't make any sense. How can people minding their own business and doing their stuff without relying on others breed elitism? The elitism starts as soon as one attempts to participate in group activities. Then, if he's not the "perfect player", a specific category of group players will look down on him and discriminate him, without even giving him a chance. Why? Because they don't want to socialize in those loot centric games, they want their reward, and that "not perfect" player is slowing them down. I didn't even say "stop them", I just said "slowing them down".
I've been raiding hardcore, hard modes in Ulduar and then heroic modes afterwards, and I've seen such behaviors. People insulting others because they got loot they wanted, earned it the legit way with their hard earned DKP, yet the other person was for some reason thing they were "not worthy" compared to them. People getting all mad at someone because he made a mistake during a boss encouter, and behaving worse that how a animal hater would treat his dog. I've always fought against that, it sometimes even got me in trouble for defending victims of such behaviors.
Forced grouping is nonsense, it breeds elitism, because people are forced to get along with people they don't want to. The gear carrot on a stick is at the cost of enduring that 10 or 25 man raid for 3+ hours. That's crap design, it worked for a while, but we see a trend lately, people are sick of it and don't buy it anymore.
It's not solo content that has turned other players into tools to further your character advancement, you are completely (and obviously) wrong. It's the loot centric forced grouping damned "end game" all MMOs for the last 7 years are focused on at max level. That breeded greed, which breeded elitism, which make people treat others as just tools to get that famous gear to advance their characters.
I've been around for 17+ years if we don't count MUDs. I've seen game without that gear carrot 'group or die' design, and games with it. The best communities have always been in games without it, because people actually grouped for FUN and for the pleasure to be with each other, and not to use others as tools to gain more power or gear.
Ive read your posts, its clear you are playing the wrong games, simple as that.
EVE would be more your style, and PS2, and of course the obvious Mortal online. But, to walk into a game like WoW or Rift, or Aion and complain about the group content, is pointless and a bit selfish.
I just went down the list of games here at MMORPG, and I counted dozens of games that cater to players like you, but your still not happy, that leads me to believe you will never be happy.
I think game devs have caught onto this, and left you behing in favor of players who appreciate group content.
when did MMORPGs become dominated by solo content? oh you're talking about leveling? who gives a crap, thats like the entrances quest to the REAL game ... the endgame. try to be successful in any MMO right now at the endgame solo.
Comments
What box price + monthly sub? Most MMOs are F2P. Most MMO players do not pay a cent.
What YOU don't get is that if that is what players like to do, who are YOU to say otherwise?
No everyone likes the kind of socialization you talk about. What if I LIKE to bash some mobs with friends and random strangers? I certainly am not shy to vote with my wallet.
There is NOTHING to get. Entertainment is entertainment. We play what we like and how we like it. Assuming anything else is just delusional.
everytime I make this point, all the pro-forced groupers gladly ignore this.
Yup, AC1 and UO you were able to solo as much as you want...yet groups happened all the time
And i don't give a shit what you think how much of the content should be grouping. I *like* choices and will vote with my wallet. We will see who has more "votes" and which direction devs are going to go.
I just like playing through content solo, rather than group, now of course if its a boss then you have to but i really do not like the group dynamic. SWTOR kind of turned me on to small grouping with social points and cut scenes to make it more interesting, but games like DDO where you almost have to group a large part of the content can be a pain if you dont get the right group-people running off on their own, going to fast or slow or have an attitude- No thanks I would rather go solo
Pretty much what he said.
You obviously completely misunderstood what I was saying. Granted, I mispelled "think", but otherwise, it's pretty clear... I don't deny the right to be able to group up with friends to bash mobs, but it's definitely NOT the only way to socialize in a MMORPG, and not the best either.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
When I play MMORPG's i tend to play solo a lot. However, the problem with games designing content for solo players is that they seem to think solo players are incompetent gamers. "Solo Content" always seems to be super easy and if you group then all challenge is gone. Personally I think almost all the currently released MMORPG's are pretty much crap (there are a few exceptions). There is zero challenge and it always seems to be about putting the time in. SWTOR was the worst in this department. The thing that I absolutely hated about SWTOR, and the reason I quit playing after a couple of days, was the self resurrection system. It was the ultimate in EZmode. I think trying to be a solo player in a group based mmorpg, may be a challenge worthy of attempting. As of now, solo content in MMORPG's are just kill 10 rats while clicking a bunch of buttons without any real chance of dying. I do think the level scaling in GW2 is a huge improvement in the challenge department for solo content so that does create some hope.
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!
I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
Holololol
Hows your wallet doing keeping SWTOR afloat?
In my view given the resources of the technology itself it should never be a question of either or. It should always be both.
If people have to ask 'which' then we are going in a lagard direction
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Yet you are wrong, obviously.
A game with both solo content and group content gives players the choice. People can either solo or group.
A game with forced group content gives no choice. It's either group or quit.
[mod edit]
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Soloing in MMO's is fine. I just hate when people think every single bit of content in the games should be soloable.
I prefer when games scale content to the size of party. Base rewards on how many are participating, and the degree of difficulty.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
I don't mind soloing in MMOs, I even like to solo sometimes. The problem I have is when soloing is by far the quickest way to progress, it becomes detrimental to grouping in a couple of ways.
First, I can never find a group leveling up because people rather just solo.
Second is if the end game is a group/raid, even group pvp based oriented, many people don't know how to play with each other because they never learned while they leveled up.
Even that aside, I can put up with it if I really enjoy the game, but the thing that really gets me is when the pure solo player expects to get the same items, rewards as a person who dedicates a lot of time, grouped with a bunch of people to take down really strong monsters for incredible items. That annoys me. I have no idea why someone expects to be able to solo and get the same item as what takes 40+ people working together to obtain.
I dont perfer that model. What I perfer is what Fallen Earth TRIED to do which is:
you have various dungeons. some are group dependent some are not. In the same amount of time (including group prep time) a solo player could get the same XP progress as a group player but they would simply be playing in different mini zones.
Also, I think the skill differences between players should work together to make grouping more possible. it encourages coporation more.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I'm one of them. I like to do my own thing while I see others doing their own thing. It's pretty cool.
"Good, honorable gamers will continue to fit the bill for the poor and lower classed people. It's just a sign of the times." ~ Anonymous. Lakexeno.com
I love'd to solo content when it was done like ffxi. If you solo'd it ment you were good and was a major bragging point. Soloing sky gods as rdm/nin or soloing next to merit parties as drg/blu. Solo play should be in mmo because it ads a lot to the challenge of content. Although imo ffxi was the only game that did it right where boss mobs weren't just immune to everything and you had to spam a heal macro on a tank to win. You could do stuff with 3-4 people that would normally take 18+ like jorgumand.
If the game's focus was solo play (as is for most MMOs nowadays), then the players will grow used to solo'ing and continue to expect the content to be solo-able from Lv.1 to max. This is exactly why you see all the time content being nerfed (and even classes, because it's a lot easier to nerf a class than to use teamwork to defeat a better player right?). It's absolutely ridiculous, and it is exactly what breeds "elitism", it's not grouping.
In MMORPGs that focuses on solo and individual success, elitism is rampant. If you group in those MMOs with other players, you will be ridiculed for not choosing the "best build" and be left out, because you would be holding said "group" back (in Raids or PvP Arena for example). And if you're not doing your "job" right, you will be trash talked for being horrible and then left out. Why? Because Solo MMORPGs have turned other players into tools to further your character's advancement. They are nothing more than that, temporary tools you have to deal with to reach max level. Relationship with these players are irrelevant as they will be forgotten immediatly or left out as soon as the raid or PvP match is over, and even more so if they didn't pick the idea build or class that will allow you to maximize your character advancement. That is elitism.
(Forced) Grouping requires that players know how to socialize and show a certain amount of maturity, and bad players will be cut out of your groups. Why? Because these groups become long-term groups and friends, and will rely on each others to fulfill various tasks and create a fun environment/mood. If a player's bad behavior is ruining the fun for others, he will be cut out. The joy of grouping isn't to continuously kill monsters for long period of times, but also act as a social activity where players will develop bonds that will last even beyond the game. That is not elitism.
To me, being a "solo'er" has nothing to do with doing group content. Look at hardcore raiders. Many of them (not all of course) dedicate themselves to a full group oriented activity, but they don't care for the team. They care about winning and getting the loot and reward for themselves. Ninjas are complete proof of this.
Allow me to use a comparsion:
- While doing Rifts an Dynamic Events, which obviously group oriented, most people don't talk or even try to socialize. Nobody says hello, thank you, goodbey. Very little difference between humans and npc's.
- Now imagine this solo quest where you have to kill 5 rats ( :P ). 2 players have to do this one, but they need the rats to respawn so both can complete it. So, the 2 players decide go together and have conversation while waiting for the rats to respawn and both turn it in together. See, while the content is solo based, the 2 players actually socialized and grouped up.
Now, i know this is very, very rare, but it's just an example to show that soloing can be far more than what we think. This to me is the problem, the lack of "get to know each other" in mmo's. I understand many want their space, which i too myself desire, but when that personal space is on all the time, there's no room for community building. This to me is true soloing and why i hate it.
How can this be improved? No clear answer, but many things contribute to this.
The reason why no one talks is because they are all solo players. I will ride up and join the zerg for the buffs and heals. Couldn't care less about who is providing it. Its a tool to stay alive and farm faster. They could all be npcs for all I care.
True, but the real problemas I see it is that players used to get rewarded for working together, now you level up faster solo and since it is so fast you don't need the slightly better gear groupers get.
MMOs should have solocontent, no worries but they must also reward people for working together and helping eachother out. Playing in a group doing hard dungeons needs once again to be faster than farming soloquests. Preferably a few times faster.
A game should not force you to group but it should encourage you to do it, MMOs are after all about social aspects and choices.
Sorry bud, but it has been proven time and time again, look at all the latest MMOs.
You make it sound so shallow, there are many ways group content can go, not just bashing some mob. Dungeon runs are just one example. Then there is PvP, sure solo PvP can be fun, but in groups you can do more.
And that is exactly how it should be, a soloer should NEVER have access to group content, and EVERY MMO should have both solo content and group content.
There is nothing forced, your just not going to get everything out of the game, and it makes sense to do it that way.
You don't make any sense. How can people minding their own business and doing their stuff without relying on others breed elitism? The elitism starts as soon as one attempts to participate in group activities. Then, if he's not the "perfect player", a specific category of group players will look down on him and discriminate him, without even giving him a chance. Why? Because they don't want to socialize in those loot centric games, they want their reward, and that "not perfect" player is slowing them down. I didn't even say "stop them", I just said "slowing them down".
I've been raiding hardcore, hard modes in Ulduar and then heroic modes afterwards, and I've seen such behaviors. People insulting others because they got loot they wanted, earned it the legit way with their hard earned DKP, yet the other person was for some reason thinking they were "not worthy" compared to them. People getting all mad at someone because he made a mistake during a boss encounter, and treating that person worse that how a animal hater would treat his dog. I've always fought against that, it sometimes even got me in trouble for defending victims of such behaviors.
Forced grouping is nonsense, it breeds elitism, because people are forced to get along with people they don't want to. The gear carrot on a stick is at the cost of enduring that 10 or 25 man raid for 3+ hours. That's crap design, it worked for a while, but we see a trend lately, people are sick of it and don't buy it anymore.
It's not solo content that has turned other players into tools to further your character advancement, you are completely (and obviously) wrong. It's the loot centric forced grouping damned "end game" all MMOs for the last 7 years are focused on at max level. That breeded greed, which breeded elitism, which make people treat others as just tools to get that famous gear to advance their characters.
I've been around for 17+ years if we don't count MUDs. I've seen game without that gear carrot 'group or die' design, and games with it. The best communities have always been in games without it, because people actually grouped for FUN and for the pleasure to be with each other, and not to use others as tools to gain more power or gear.
That's pretty much why I'm looking forward to GW2... they break this model, completely. They make people play together instead of pitting them against each other for a carrot, and "end game"' starts at level 1. It's the first time in a long time I see a developer do this and succeed. The gear carrot end game model can die, I won't cry about it.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Ive read your posts, its clear you are playing the wrong games, simple as that.
EVE would be more your style, and PS2, and of course the obvious Mortal online. But, to walk into a game like WoW or Rift, or Aion and complain about the group content, is pointless and a bit selfish.
I just went down the list of games here at MMORPG, and I counted dozens of games that cater to players like you, but your still not happy, that leads me to believe you will never be happy.
I think game devs have caught onto this, and left you behing in favor of players who appreciate group content.
when did MMORPGs become dominated by solo content? oh you're talking about leveling? who gives a crap, thats like the entrances quest to the REAL game ... the endgame. try to be successful in any MMO right now at the endgame solo.
group for dungeon
group for hardcore modes
group for raids
group for PVP
[mod edit]